View Full Version : Cash For Clunkers Results In: Japs Win Big ... Major Embarassment for GM
30 cal slut
08-27-09, 10:04
i can't stop lol'ing at this.
now, i know a lot of japanese nameplates are made here in the US of A ... but if you consider that GM was doubling the fed.gov incentives ... this is just farkin lugubrious.
Vehicles Traded-In By Category
Passenger Cars: 109,380
Category 1 Truck: 450,778 (suvs 1/4 ton pickups and smaller)
Category 2 Truck: 116,909 (most 1/2 ton pickups/huge suvs)
Category 3 Truck: 8,134 (3/4 ton+ pickups)
Vehicles Purchased By Category
Passenger Cars: 404,046
Category 1 Truck: 231,651
Category 2 Truck: 46,836
Category 3 Truck: 2,408
The Ten Most Purchased New Vehicles
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Honda Civic
3. Toyota Camry
4. Ford Focus
5. Hyundai Elantra
6. Nissan Versa
7. Toyota Prius
8. Honda Accord
9. Honda Fit
10. Ford Escape FWD
The Ten Most Traded-In Vehicles
1. Ford Explorer 4WD
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD
4. Ford Explorer 2WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan 2WD
6. Jeep Cherokee 4WD
7. Chevrolet Blazer 4WD
8. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2WD
9. Ford F150 Pickup 4WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van
source: jalopnik
freakshow10mm
08-27-09, 10:28
Good. I hope that teaches them to be more competitive.
Yep, pretty much one giant program to help Detroit lose market share and it worked.
But since even Detroit sold more cars under the program than in the same weeks before it, they are dumb enough to think it was a good thing.
3-4 years from now they will get a good understanding of what owner loyalty means.
i wouldnt buy a jap car if it was the last think left on earth. why am i so very alone? peoples wallets lead their values.
i know american car companies- GM specifically- have made some pretty phenominal blunders. tryng to compete with nippon was one of them. you cannot compete with those sneaky little ****ers.. they're way too good. instead, you need to produce all the shit they're not producing, and cater to the Americans who still buy American... make American cars IN America, make them out of steel instead of plastic, drop all the retarded compact car lines- nobody buys American to buy small and ugly.. thats what nippon cars are for. fire all your lame ass, high-sallaried designers- stick with what's worked, change the design infrequently. Americans who still buy American don't even like change- no need for it but every 10 years or so.
i'll buy American till the day i die. or till the day America dies, whichever happens first.
freakshow10mm
08-27-09, 11:15
If a domestic company can make a vehicle I want, that is quality, and is priced such that I can afford it, I'll buy it.
Have a 2000 Chevrolet Blazer. Bought it with 70,000 miles on it 5 years ago. 160,000 miles on it and replaced the transmission, radiator, ball joints 5 times, idler and pitman arms 3 times, ignition switch 2 times, and alternator 3 times.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Honda%20Del%20Sol/P5120192.jpg
Have a Honda Del Sol. Cousin bought in brand new in 1995 I got it from my father 2 years ago along with all the maintenance records of everything that was done to it. Timing belt at 60,000 miles and 120,000 miles. Alternator at 128,000 miles. No other repairs, just gas, tire, oil, brake pads, light bulbs like normal. Now has 150,000 miles.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Honda%20Del%20Sol/P5120191.jpg
Which is the better, more reliable vehicle? I'll buy Japanese vehicles until America gets their act together. I'm not going to waste my hard earned dollars on American crap simply because it's an American company. I'm done with domestic vehicles until they can win my money. $25,000 for a basic 4WD truck that needs major repairs within 5 years is a joke.
so you wont buy from a Japanese brand thats built here in the states, but you'll buy a American brand thats built in Mexico or Canada??? makes a ton of sense...And though you say you want them to build them here, it simply isnt happening.
MarshallDodge
08-27-09, 11:20
My experience with vehicles has been similar to freakshow. No more American until they can get their act together.
i wouldnt buy a jap car if it was the last think left on earth. why am i so very alone? peoples wallets lead their values.
i'll buy American till the day i die. or till the day America dies, whichever happens first.
I am having a hard time seeing how buying a car has to do with your values. How a company can keep putting out low quality has something to do with their values.
I have been in Japanese and American owned automotive production facilities and it was an eye opener.
PRGGodfather
08-27-09, 11:22
Jewish American Princesses make cars?
Personally, I am a Ford man, but I also love German cars, so my Range Rover (part of the Ford family) has a Bosch engine, and it sits next to my Lincoln, which was designed by Audi.
Yes, my wallet dictates some of my decisions, and I make no apologies for that ability.
you cannot compete with those sneaky little ****ers..
I know: what a bunch of sneaky little ****ers. They tricked me into liking their reliable cars that last a long time and require little upkeep. What a bunch of sneaky ****s!
Those damn sneaky Japanese cars that are built in America and employ American workers. I wish they were more like those upstanding American cars that are built in Mexico and employ locals there.
...they're way too good. instead, you need to produce all the shit they're not producing
Don't worry: plenty of companies are producing shit these days.
why am i so very alone? peoples wallets lead their values.
My vehicle is for getting me from point A to point B. I didn't buy it to make a statement.
CarlosDJackal
08-27-09, 11:49
As much as I'd like to buy American (whatever that is); I would only do so for vehicles that I can afford and are as reliable as my Honda Civic (over 140,000-miles so far).
My Civic normally gets 30-34 MPG. The lowest it ever got was 28 MPG (mostly city driving with a lot of high-traffic volumes in DC and NoVA). The best I ever got was 42MPG - all highway at 80 MPH.
The only repairs I have had to do were:
- Brakes (twice - the 1st time due to wear and the second due to a mechanic screwing up).
- Timing belt replaced (regular maintenance).
- Engine top-end (the dealer screwed up when they replaced the timing belt and it resulted in a valve strike).
- Tires (two sets so far).
- Rear struts (crooked mechanic said I needed new ones and I fell for it :mad:).
That's it!! This has got to be the most low-maintenance car I've ever owned (it's the first non-US car I bought new).
I have been considering a Dodge Charger primarily because of its trunk space and the fact that it is a 4-door. But I have been very hesitant because of the posted gas mileage and the fact that they are still currently under the control of the obamists. Plus, there are no reliable or honest Dodge dealers anywhere near where I currently live. YMMV.
30 cal slut
08-27-09, 12:04
you cannot compete with those sneaky little ****ers.. they're way too good.
RMAO.
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/japan/bugs/723.jpg
you can't put a unit of plywood in the bed of any japanese light truck, friends.
you can't put a unit of plywood in the bed of any japanese light truck, friends.
If the plywood measures 4'x8' you can in a Tundra or probably Titan though I have not tried it in the Titan.
Of course, the Tundra is a Texas San Antonio Light Truck so maybe that makes it ineligible.
you can't put a unit of plywood in the bed of any japanese light truck, friends.
I thought you just said that non-Japanese companies couldn't compete with the Japanese ones?
That sounds like a very valid point of competition to me. No, I'm not being sarcastic.
Of course, not everyone needs to haul plywood. Different people have different needs - nothing sneaky about that.
Fullsize Nissa Titan might need a bed extender, but you could haul 4x8 sheets
http://www.nissanusa.com/titan/specifications-king-cab.html
Tundra with full-size box, no problem
http://www.toyota.com/tundra/features.html
I have an Acura, a Jeep and an Audi so my brand loyalty know's no borders!
I buy whatever is the best in the catagory that I'm interested in. For daily drivers, its hard to beat Honda or Toyota. For off-roading, Jeep and Hummer are hard to beat.
Fullsize Nissa Titan might need a bed extender, but you could haul 4x8 sheets
http://www.nissanusa.com/titan/specifications-king-cab.html
Tundra with full-size box, no problem
http://www.toyota.com/tundra/features.html
I have an Acura, a Jeep and an Audi so my brand loyalty know's no borders!
I buy whatever is the best in the catagory that I'm interested in. For daily drivers, its hard to beat Honda or Toyota. For off-roading, Jeep and Hummer are hard to beat.
weight is the bigger issue. a unit of 5/8th plywood weighs ~3000lbs.. im pretty sure even the heaviest-duty tundra is only rated for ~2000. and that's just 1 load.. i've moved 5 units in a day, plus a few hundred LBS of nails, mechfasts, additional lumber, and a minimum of 500lbs of tools that exist in the truck at any given time.
this debate obviously excludes me- japanese trucks are not work trucks, and nevr have been.
Preferred User
08-27-09, 12:33
From cars.com
* Ford F-150: 80% domestic content, down from 90% for '07
* Chevrolet Silverado 1500: 85% for '08, down from 90% for '07
* Toyota Camry/Solara: 68% for '08, down from 78% for '07
* Honda Accord: 60% for '08, down from 65% for '07
* Toyota Corolla: 50% for '09, down from 65% for '08
* Toyota Matrix: 65% for '09, down from 75% for '08
* Dodge Ram: 68% for '08, down from 72% for '07
* Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
* Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
So what constitutes "Made in the USA"?
From cars.com
So what constitutes "Made in the USA"?
Exactly. My 2009 Honda Pilot was made in Alabama, and designed at a Honda facility in Ohio - all my American workers.
The Dodge I bought in 2001 was made in Canada. No offense to Canadians, but that is not the same as made in the USA. And, it's transmission died at 70,000 miles.
I don't give a damn where the corporate millionaires live ... if only foreign companies are making shit here that am I buying the products that put a paycheck in the hands of American workers, regardless of where corporate HQ is.
weight is the bigger issue. a unit of 5/8th plywood weighs ~3000lbs.. im pretty sure even the heaviest-duty tundra is only rated for ~2000. and that's just 1 load.. i've moved 5 units in a day, plus a few hundred LBS of nails, mechfasts, additional lumber, and a minimum of 500lbs of tools that exist in the truck at any given time.
None of the big three have a 3000 lb bed payload for the current model year. Most are 2000 or less, even with heavy duty spring package.
You need to get a medium duty truck to get that kind of bed payload.
decodeddiesel
08-27-09, 12:53
I refuse to support the UAW, nor any kind of government subsidized apathy. Therefor I will not buy American.
Your right, you won't be able to put 3000lbs in the bed. But you'd need a 1ton Chevy or Ford to do that.
For true work truck purposes, its hard to even compare Chevy or Ford to an import truck.
For people who buy a 1/4 ton pickup, the import options are definitely viable considerations.
The Tundra with a supercharger kit has ridiculous power!
I would buy more American if they made what I wanted. For the last 40 years, its been spotty at best. I consider the last true kick ass american cars to have died with the smog regulations in the 70s. They haven't picked up the gauntlet until the last few years and now they are way behind the curve compared to the competition.
The new Buick LaCrosse is an example of the types of cars they should have had on the market all along. That is a product that can compete in the market. Same with the new Taurus SHO, Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger. Build cars that people like and can afford.
When the Accord really started kicking their asses in the late 80s, they needed to change their ways. You can still see 87' Accords rolling around--most of the domestic cars from the 80s are long since dead, rusting, and rotting in a junk yard.
well, now were talking full size trucks, not cars as in your first statement, and I doubt your putting 3,000lbs of plywood in the bed of an F150 or Silverado 1500 every day. If you are, you bought the wrong truck, you need a dually.
"i wouldnt buy a jap car if it was the last think left on earth."
If a domestic company can make a vehicle I want, that is quality, and is priced such that I can afford it, I'll buy it.
Have a 2000 Chevrolet Blazer. Bought it with 70,000 miles on it 5 years ago. 160,000 miles on it and replaced the transmission, radiator, ball joints 5 times, idler and pitman arms 3 times, ignition switch 2 times, and alternator 3 times.
Have a Honda Del Sol. Cousin bought in brand new in 1995 I got it from my father 2 years ago along with all the maintenance records of everything that was done to it. Timing belt at 60,000 miles and 120,000 miles. Alternator at 128,000 miles. No other repairs, just gas, tire, oil, brake pads, light bulbs like normal. Now has 150,000 miles.
Which is the better, more reliable vehicle? I'll buy Japanese vehicles until America gets their act together. I'm not going to waste my hard earned dollars on American crap simply because it's an American company. I'm done with domestic vehicles until they can win my money. $25,000 for a basic 4WD truck that needs major repairs within 5 years is a joke.
Apples to oranges, guy. A little compact 2 door rice burner, compared to a 4 door 4wd SUV. Compare the Blazer to an XTerra or the queer-sol to a mustang. This is like comparing a pistol to a rifle.
None of the big three have a 3000 lb bed payload for the current model year. Most are 2000 or less, even with heavy duty spring package.
You need to get a medium duty truck to get that kind of bed payload.
Exactly. None of the Japanese manufacturers make a medium or heavy duty truck marketed in the US - yet.
brand loyalty know's no borders!
Amen to that.
"Buy American because it's American" is a BS argument, more along the lines of "...because I think you should." That ain't freedom. It's not even patriotism, it's nationalism, which, if allowed to follow it's natural course, historically ends up with some segment of the population being given armbands and herded into camps. Or pogroms.
"Buy American because it's a better vehicle." Questionable, or at least highly subjective, and in many cases of equal BS level as the former. Planned obscelescence in a given design doesn't bode well for repeat customers. Nor do neo-communist manufacturing entities.
"Buy what has an acceptable blend of performance and reasonable life-cycle sustainment costs for the role you wish the vehicle to fulfill." Ahhh, now we're talking sense. Line-of-sight reasoning, with no nationalities, no mindless chanting and no blood sacrifices involved. If it's a domestic, fantastic. If it's not, equally fantastic, and for the right reasons: decisions made based on fact and not belief.
Work trucks are a niche market. I'd almost consider it a monopoly except that it's simply a matter of the foreign makers not offerring anything to match the domestic deisel platforms instead of intent on the part of the Big Three (though it would be naive to think that their lobbyists don't make efforts in that area, just not couched in those terms). I think we all know that that's going to change, if Toyota and Nissan stop talking about it and execute what they've been planning.
I, for one, am gleefully awaiting that day, when one can spend $40k+ to get a deisel truck that you don't have to plan on being catastrophically boobs-up within 2 years. Those high-mileage warrantees don't exist because the power trains make it that far, they exist because if they didn't, nobody would buy the things knowing that they'd have to pay for the repairs in store for them in the near future.
this debate obviously excludes me- japanese trucks are not work trucks, and nevr have been.
Millions Japanese built trucks work every day all over the world hauling stuff all over third world countries down "main" roads that don't even compare favorably to farm trails in the US.
if I am regularly hauling 3000 lbs of plywood ? chances are I am hauling other stuff ?
if thats the case then I will have it delivered !
if I have to haul it myself and am hauling that much normally I would have a flat bed ?
choose the vehicle you like and enjoy it
cars from US companies are made from parts from Mexico !
or assembled there !
some cars from Toyota are over %80 made in America from American parts ! yet some chevy cars are less than %5 american parts and assembled in Mexico ? so what is more American ?
sadly this day and age there is very little made in America stuff and many cases the % of the products is not American but assembled here or a few parts from here and assembled elsewhere !
I always buy American when I can but I am not going to buy American blindly and have it cost me more money in the long run !!!
lucky for us I can buy everything I need for guns from american companies :)
freakshow10mm
08-27-09, 13:28
Apples to oranges, guy. A little compact 2 door rice burner, compared to a 4 door 4wd SUV. Compare the Blazer to an XTerra or the queer-sol to a mustang. This is like comparing a pistol to a rifle.
OK.
My dad's 2001 Monte Carlo SS. New front suspension twice, engine replaced once, computer chip replaced 4 times, excessive knocking even when fueled with the premium high octane stuff. Bought brand new in 2001. All repairs were done in the first 40,000 miles.
Friend's 2008 Fusion. Nothing but trouble from the start. He's been driving the loaner car more than his Fusion.
Friend's 2008 Cobalt. Great for the first 10,000 miles then started falling apart. Sensors failed, airbags would deploy at random, ABS failed, water pump failed, exhaust system rusted.
Every single vehicle, no matter it's platform, should be just as reliable as any other made by the same company. A 2 door 92HP convertible should be just as reliable as any half ton pickup or full size SUV. A round of 9mm plinking ammunition should be just as reliable as a .375 H&H dangerous game hunting round. If it isn't, that sure as shit isn't a company whose product I'd be buying.
It's basic caring about your product. You make the single product in front of you perfect, then keep doing it.
There is a horrific lack of quality control in domestic vehicle production by the big three. I don't know if it's arrogance, ignorance, or lack of skill. I see more Japanese vehicles driving around without rust from 10-15-20 years ago. The 20 year old Ford and GM vehicles I see are in the junk yards or close to it.
there is a reason you see landcruisers still going strong :)
and toyota trucks around the world still going when many other vehicles dont seem to make it and fall apart !
in the islands you see older american cars that are rusted out and not running while the toyotas are still going
when I was living in Central America blue bird buses and toyota PU trucks seem to be the main thing on the road and ones that you dont see broken down
OK.
My dad's 2001 Monte Carlo SS. New front suspension twice, engine replaced once, computer chip replaced 4 times, excessive knocking even when fueled with the premium high octane stuff. Bought brand new in 2001. All repairs were done in the first 40,000 miles.
Friend's 2008 Fusion. Nothing but trouble from the start. He's been driving the loaner car more than his Fusion.
Friend's 2008 Cobalt. Great for the first 10,000 miles then started falling apart. Sensors failed, airbags would deploy at random, ABS failed, water pump failed, exhaust system rusted.
Every single vehicle, no matter it's platform, should be just as reliable as any other made by the same company. A 2 door 92HP convertible should be just as reliable as any half ton pickup or full size SUV. A round of 9mm plinking ammunition should be just as reliable as a .375 H&H dangerous game hunting round. If it isn't, that sure as shit isn't a company whose product I'd be buying.
It's basic caring about your product. You make the single product in front of you perfect, then keep doing it.
There is a horrific lack of quality control in domestic vehicle production by the big three. I don't know if it's arrogance, ignorance, or lack of skill. I see more Japanese vehicles driving around without rust from 10-15-20 years ago. The 20 year old Ford and GM vehicles I see are in the junk yards or close to it.
Anecdotal evidence, just as it is here with the primary focus of this board, ain't the end-all be-all. The domestic companies have gained on the Japs by leaps and bounds in the past few years with respect to quality (if not market share).
Anecdotal evidence, just as it is here with the primary focus of this board, ain't the end-all be-all. The domestic companies have gained on the Japs by leaps and bounds in the past few years with respect to quality (if not market share).
Nice subject change. Yes, they have closed the gap from 10X lower quality to only 2x.
Money:
Honda and Porsche lead the pack in J.D. Power and Associates' annual ranking of initial vehicle quality. (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/WhoMakesTheHighestQualityCars.aspx)
MotorTrend:
Japanese and luxury automakers dominate the top 5 rankings by brand in a benchmark annual survey of new-vehicle quality. Ford's Mercury was the top U.S. brand, ranking No. 6. (http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6805266/the-general-forum/who-makes-the-highest-quality-cars/index.html)
Forbes:
Overall, Toyota's Lexus brand led the nameplate rankings for quality--the 12th year it has achieved such distinction in 20 years, and the first year since 2005. Porsche ( PSEPF.PK - news - people ), Cadillac, Hyundai and Honda ( HMC - news - people ) rounded out the top five. (http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/22/best-quality-cars-lifestyle-vehicles-quality-rankings.html)
JD Power:
2009's Highest-Quality Cars
1. Toyota Yaris
2. Hyundai Elantra Sedan
3. Scion tC
4. Nissan Z
5. Lexus IS
Anecdotal evidence, just as it is here with the primary focus of this board, ain't the end-all be-all. The domestic companies have gained on the Japs by leaps and bounds in the past few years with respect to quality (if not market share).
numbers to support this?
i can't stop lol'ing at this.
now, i know a lot of japanese nameplates are made here in the US of A ... but if you consider that GM was doubling the fed.gov incentives ... this is just farkin lugubrious.
Can you please post the direct link to this info (I'm having trouble finding it).
Vehicles Traded-In By Category
Passenger Cars: 109,380
Category 1 Truck: 450,778 (suvs 1/4 ton pickups and smaller)
Category 2 Truck: 116,909 (most 1/2 ton pickups/huge suvs)
Category 3 Truck: 8,134 (3/4 ton+ pickups)
Vehicles Purchased By Category
Passenger Cars: 404,046
Category 1 Truck: 231,651
Category 2 Truck: 46,836
Category 3 Truck: 2,408
The Ten Most Purchased New Vehicles
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Honda Civic
3. Toyota Camry
4. Ford Focus
5. Hyundai Elantra
6. Nissan Versa
7. Toyota Prius
8. Honda Accord
9. Honda Fit
10. Ford Escape FWD
The Ten Most Traded-In Vehicles
1. Ford Explorer 4WD
2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD
4. Ford Explorer 2WD
5. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan 2WD
6. Jeep Cherokee 4WD
7. Chevrolet Blazer 4WD
8. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2WD
9. Ford F150 Pickup 4WD
10. Ford Windstar FWD Van
TIA,
Dave
freakshow10mm
08-27-09, 15:06
Anecdotal evidence, just as it is here with the primary focus of this board, ain't the end-all be-all. The domestic companies have gained on the Japs by leaps and bounds in the past few years with respect to quality (if not market share).
Funny I don't recall Consumer Reports annual vehicle issue claiming anything as you are. They drive more vehicles backward than we do forward.
Nice subject change.
WTF subject did I change? Disagree with my take if you want, but my post was completely relevant to the post I was replying to.
Yes, they have closed the gap from 10X lower quality to only 2x.
Money:
Honda and Porsche lead the pack in J.D. Power and Associates' annual ranking of initial vehicle quality. (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/WhoMakesTheHighestQualityCars.aspx)
Just looking at this first link, and in the top 10:
2 German and 2 Japanese luxury brands, plus Toyota in the top 5. Next you've got Mercury, which is a Ford with a different badge on the hood, at number 6. They've moved up over the past few years by these numbers. Next, you have Honda, below Mercury and above number 8 Ford, although the spread between all of them is probably statistically insignificant. Ford/Mercury have been trending higher and Honda trending lower on these numbers. In the next group you've got Caddy/Chevy all tied at #10, all showing gains over the past few years.
So yeah, based on your link, I stand by what I said.
Buy what y'all want, doesn't bother me. My only point to begin with was that anecdotal data is insignificant.
ETA: In case there is some sort of misunderstanding, I did not intend my original post to come across as claiming that the domestics had surpassed the Japs, quite the contrary. I was saying that they have gained a lot of ground and there isn't the night and day difference that there used to be between a Toyota and a Ford.
30 cal slut
08-27-09, 15:39
Can you please post the direct link to this info (I'm having trouble finding it).
My apologies, here is the link:
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2009/dot13309.htm
Exactly. None of the Japanese manufacturers make a medium or heavy duty truck marketed in the US - yet.
Actually they do.
wait, wait, wait... i neglected this thread all morning.
for my comments:
"light truck" means any pickup truck- I.E, no isuzu flatbeds and shit.
i don't do any "light duty" trucks- worthless on the jobsite.
when i said "you can't compete" i meant product for product- the japs will always make a better compact passenger vehicle.
when it comes to muscle cars and light trucks (not light duty, again), they cant compete with US.
dont know WTF's goin on around here.
this year's tundra in their heaviest-duty configuration: ~2000lbs payload
this years f350, in whatever configuration i happened across on the website: ~3500lbs payload
that's the difference between one trip and 3 trips, a lot of the time. i would have no problem dropping 4500lbs in the back of an f350 rated for 3500lbs... are jap trucks are versitile? seems to me i remember hearing that jap trucks REALLY should not be overloaded.
Nathan_Bell
08-27-09, 16:05
Actually they do.
The reason we do not see them is the monstrous import duties on medium and heavy duty trucks. Depending on the class and spec's you will see the duty hitting 26% of the vehicle's value.
This is why you see the little snubby fronted straight trucks but not the heavy OTR sized rigs that European and Japanese companies make.
heavy OTR sized rigs that European and Japanese companies make.
Most of those are much smaller than US OTR trucks. Different roads, different markets.
Nathan_Bell
08-27-09, 16:26
Most of those are much smaller than US OTR trucks. Different roads, different markets.
Aye, but we will never know if they would fill niches better than the US produced heavy trucks, thanks to the import duties.
this year's tundra in their heaviest-duty configuration: ~2000lbs payload
this years f350, in whatever configuration i happened across on the website: ~3500lbs payload
that's the difference between one trip and 3 trips, a lot of the time. i would have no problem dropping 4500lbs in the back of an f350 rated for 3500lbs... are jap trucks are versitile? seems to me i remember hearing that jap trucks REALLY should not be overloaded.
Of course Toyota's 1/2 ton pickup doesn't compare to the Ford 1-ton. The F-150 doesn't have as much payload as the F-350 either.
Can't compete, vs. Don't compete, thats a big difference. You are 100% correct that Toyota and Nissan are not producing anything to compete with an F350 or Silverado 3500. Smith and Wesson's selection of LMGs doesn't compare to FN's, either, so what.
As you said in the other post, product to product, they're tough to compete with. Tacoma to Ranger, Tundra to F150, they compare very favorably. In the 1/2 ton market, it's really all one game of leapfrog, whoever has the newest update wins.
The_War_Wagon
08-27-09, 17:27
People are happy right now with their new cars, only because the payment coupon books haven't arrived. 18 mos. from now, we'll be hearing the same people crying for a bailout, because they can't afford the payments... :rolleyes:
My current American car will probably be my last. It is a Saturn Aura and I will probably go Honda or Nissan next time. Although honestly I miss my Acura a lot :(
This is an email I received from a friend. I think he is SPOT on in his assessment about the CARS program. The photos he took are of late model cars in very good shape, notably a 2000 Lincoln with 34,000 miles :confused:
He and I were talking and he suggested a lottery system for these "clunkers". You put in and if you win, you bring your 1972 Chevy landscaping trunk in and leave in a late model...No cost to the lottery winners as thes cars are destined to be destroyed anyways...
As most of you know, I work in car dealerships daily. The CARS program is truly government waste at its worst. Not only are they destroying many serviceable units, but reading the dealer FAQ on the cars.gov website makes my blood boil:
My customer has a vehicle which meets all the requirements for the CARS program, but the transmission broke down last week and will cost $1000 to repair. May this vehicle participate in the CARS program?
YES, but ONLY IF the transmission is fixed. The CARS final rule specifies that a trade-in vehicle must be in drivable condition on the date of the trade-in. The dealer must certify, in writing, after operating the car on public roads, that it is drivable. The purchaser must also certify, in writing, that the trade-in vehicle is in drivable condition. Both the purchaser’s and the Dealer’s certification are required for a CARS transaction.
So, we're going to make the customer pay $1000 to repair a vehicle that is mandated to be destroyed within 180 days? What is the point?
Does the vehicle have to be crushed within 180 days?
YES the entire vehicle, including the engine block and drive train (unless the drive train is sold as separate parts), must be crushed or shredded within 180 days. Any part other than the engine block and drive train (unless the drive train is sold in separate parts) that is removed prior to 180 days may be inventoried and sold separately with no time restrictions.
In case you were wondering what some of these "clunker" vehicles look like, I have attached a few pictures that I took today at a local Nissan dealership. About 50% of the cars in the "clunker" lots are beat up wrecks, but the other 50% are representative of the attached photos. I have witnessed about 20 of these vehicle's engines get destroyed with the sodium silicate solution...each death brings a tear to my eye.
How many of these cars could pass emissions and could be put back in service in place of the true shitboxes we see on the roads daily? How many single moms are driving their kids around in something less safe than the Volvo wagon? How many would see the 2000 Lincoln Continental with 34K miles as a huge upgrade over their current car? What quantity of carbon emissions will be released manufacturing brand new cars and destroying the old ones? It's not that the 3 billion dollars doesn't bug me, but the waste disgusts me.
Mitch
Of course Toyota's 1/2 ton pickup doesn't compare to the Ford 1-ton. The F-150 doesn't have as much payload as the F-350 either.
Can't compete, vs. Don't compete, thats a big difference. You are 100% correct that Toyota and Nissan are not producing anything to compete with an F350 or Silverado 3500. Smith and Wesson's selection of LMGs doesn't compare to FN's, either, so what.
As you said in the other post, product to product, they're tough to compete with. Tacoma to Ranger, Tundra to F150, they compare very favorably. In the 1/2 ton market, it's really all one game of leapfrog, whoever has the newest update wins.
yea.. that IS my point. Don't compete- fill the rolls japs cant. and do it on American soil.
I think the intent of the program was good, how it actually worked is a different question. As for trading in a 2000 Lincoln w/34k miles, well either the car was a POS, or the owner could have made more selling it or just trading it normally depending on what they traded it for. The dealer could have given them $3500 trade in for it, and it would not have needed to be destroyed, which makes me think the car wasnt worth much.
The reason the rule for the driveable cars was to stop people from buying a non-running car from a junk yard that was going to be crushed anyway, so it didnt turn into a "push, pull, or drag" car rebate.
They sold almost 700k cars and the average gas mileage went up 9mpg. That works out to an extra 6 million miles driven per gallon, and 2 billion miles per year per gallon.
freakshow10mm
08-27-09, 21:35
The reason the rule for the driveable cars was to stop people from buying a non-running car from a junk yard that was going to be crushed anyway, so it didnt turn into a "push, pull, or drag" car rebate.
I'm against the entire thing from the core, but to eliminate this problem there could have been a reasonable amount of time to have the vehicle titled in your name, say 2 years, 5 years, etc.
They sold almost 700k cars and the average gas mileage went up 9mpg. That works out to an extra 6 million miles driven per gallon, and 2 billion miles per year per gallon.
Some more Cash for Clunkers math...
700k cars x $4,500 to each owner = $3 billion and change that we don't have.
It is 3 billion that would have just been spent/given away for some other nonsense if it wasnt used for that. Its over now, I just hope it actually helped some people, and people using less gas helps everyone.
It is 3 billion that would have just been spent/given away for some other nonsense if it wasnt used for that. Its over now, I just hope it actually helped some people, and people using less gas helps everyone.
And as long as most people keep seeing things that way, this clock will keep getting higher:
www.usdebtclock.org
I see it that way because that is what happens, not that I agree with it. Put it on a ballot and I will vote against it.
Army Chief
08-27-09, 22:26
The trouble with a post like this one is that we're all struggling to some degree with pragmatism and sentimentality. Sure, we would like for our domestic auto industry to build competitive worry-free products, but until they do, we can't really afford to throw away money on inferior automobiles just because they happen to be badged American.
This is a real Catch-22 these days, because it is tempting to point to foreign factories within the US and feel good about the jobs they have created. So long as you permit yourself the luxury of a bit of short-sightedness, this is good thinking. Where we run into trouble is that American Toyota, Honda and BMW (et al.) plants are generating jobs, but the wealth that they generate actually ends up elsewhere. We derive the immediate benefit at the worker level, while they reap the long term stability, profits and ultimately ... control.
That might seem like a fair tradeoff until you consider what it has done to our industrial capacity. Turn the clock back to WWII when every domestic auto company and machine shop was able to convert production to the war effort. We had the industrial base; it simply required a bit of retooling and a new direction. If we were to end up in that same situation today, would Honda and Toyota plants be willing or able to convert production to producing tanks and artillery pieces? I'm guessing not so much.
Now, it isn't my purpose to pile on to one side of the argument or the other, because I drive German cars myself, and probably will continue to do so. I'm not implying there is an attendant moral component to any of this, nor am I criticizing anyone's choices. I just think we need to get out of the mindset that foreign-owned companies engaged in domestic production are just as good (or better) for our economy as American companies engaged in the same basic activities. Yes, globalization has changed the shape of the argument considerably -- make no mistake about that -- but at the end of the day, the question still isn't so much "who had jobs?" as "where did the wealth go?".
If we've learned anything, it is that the black-and-white lines that served our fathers and grandfathers so well no longer exist. We do the best that we can, but at the end of the day, we also have to do what makes sense. If driving down to your local US-brand dealership is going to involve spending more money (long-term) for an inferior product that won't meet your needs any better than a non-US competitors, in the end, this becomes a rather cold business decision.
I don't like that, and I doubt that many of you do either, but reality is sometimes unkind -- and I can't afford to buy a poorly-made car any more than I can afford to buy a poorly-made AR. I can only hope that if/when our domestic manufacturers truly catch a clue -- and I get the sense that Ford has definitely done that, to name one -- we can reward them accordingly with our renewed loyalties.
AC
This is an email I received from a friend. I think he is SPOT on in his assessment about the CARS program. The photos he took are of late model cars in very good shape, notably a 2000 Lincoln with 34,000 miles :confused:
He and I were talking and he suggested a lottery system for these "clunkers". You put in and if you win, you bring your 1972 Chevy landscaping trunk in and leave in a late model...No cost to the lottery winners as thes cars are destined to be destroyed anyways...
I can second all this. You would be surprised to see some of the cars that they call clunkers. Not to mention all the hippies that bitch and moan if you don't throw a water bottle into the recycling bin, but they want all these cars crushed and in a land fill.
Since when do they crush cars and put them in a landfill?
Granted plastic and foam end up in a landfill probably, but even alot of that is being recycled, but most of the vehicle is recycled.
Since when do they crush cars and put them in a landfill?
Granted plastic and foam end up in a landfill probably, but even alot of that is being recycled, but most of the vehicle is recycled.
werd... cars get recycled. i would have thought it'd be federal law, by now.
"Exactly. None of the Japanese manufacturers make a medium or heavy duty truck marketed in the US - yet."
Hino, a division of Toyota, Diesel COE's and conventionals, built in California.
UD, a division of Nissan, Diesel COE's
Mitsubishi, Diesel COE's
Isuzu, Diesel and gas COE's
I would venture to guess that most of the stuff in your house was delivered in a japanese built medium to heavy duty truck.
Wait until Toyota starts dropping the Hino Diesels into the Tundra (Dually coming soon) and starts making 1-3 ton trucks.
Tundras are built in Texas and Tacomas in California, are they more or less "American" than a Mexican built Dodge Ram? My Subaru is from Indiana, is it more foreign than a Canadian built Ford?
there is a reason you see landcruisers still going strong :)
and toyota trucks around the world still going when many other vehicles dont seem to make it and fall apart !
in the islands you see older american cars that are rusted out and not running while the toyotas are still going
when I was living in Central America blue bird buses and toyota PU trucks seem to be the main thing on the road and ones that you dont see broken down
I'm not familiar with toyotas so I have question about that. Are the toyotas made for foreign markets different than the american ones? I could have sworn I've seen newer foreign toyotas built with solid front axles which haven't been seen in america for quite a while.
I'll admit to not being a big toyota/nissan fan somewhat based on the whole "buy domestic"(my ram and dakota had a decent domestic parts content and were assembled in america) and toyotas wouldn't be the greatest to work on out here if it did break down. The closest toyota dealership is at least 150 miles away and nobody really work on or keeps a very large stock of parts for foreign brands since everybody buys Ford, Chevy, or Dodge(most every ranch has at least one 3/4 or 1 ton truck if not quite a few).
In my family has never encountered significant mechanical problems with our vehicles(mostly GM or Dodge) which actually get used. Of course we try to avoid putting unecesarry abuse on anything which seems like is the key to keeping a vehicle going. Usually the people out here who have a lot of breakdowns are the ones who abuse the hell out of everything. The only exception I've seen is one guy who has a 90s chevy diesel that still runs in spite of his absolutely destructive nature(I've heard some crazy tales about his farm), the truck is still running(I have know idea how though). Of course I know that there are times when a company makes a piece of junk and I will agree that seems to happen more than it should. Sorry for the rant, I just get a little sick of domestics getting labeled as absolute junk. Of course my experience is mostly in the truck world. I don't have many good things to say about cars in gneral these days.
One last note on cash for clunkers. The thing that bugs me the most about the whole deal was that I'm sure a lot of decent usable vehicles met their end for no good reason. I've always beleived that if it still works, then you should get rid of it. This program was just wasteful.
Most vehicles that have a foreign counterpart are very different. Most foreign trucks have have the diesel option, which so many people in the US would love to have.
Nissan frontier is the nissan navara overseas. I have no idea why they do not offer the diesel here, Im sure it is something that makes no sense to anyone.
I mostly lurk here, but I have to reply to this thread. My wife and I have tried and tried American cars. Currently, I have a 2008 Pontiac G6 GT and she has a 2008 Chevy HHR. We have had 7 different Jeeps, two Plymouth minivans, a Ford Ranger, Dodge Dakota, Neon and Daytona. All of them except the Jeeps fell apart somwhere between 50,000-70,000 miles. We're talkin major, multi-thousand dolar repairs. The Jeeps were OK, but I had heavily modified most of them for off roading. Of course the current cars are under warranty, but I have already had to have the G6 in the shop 3 times. I will keep it until it's paid off and then try to dump it before it blows up. My next car will either be a Hyundai Genesis Coupe or a Toyota Tacoma. The only decision is whether I want a sports car or a truck. American vehicles won't even be considered.
Also, my police unit is a 2005 Explorer and it's junk. Most fo our fleet is Chevy Impalas and they are also junk. Transmissions, steering shafts, ECU's TCU's etc. etc. etc. Junk.
Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Not to be a smart ass but, that car company is not known for quality cars
Not to be a smart ass but, that car company is not known for quality cars
Not to be a smart ass, but "says who"?
Hrmm seems that it is a quality car, according to what I found online. All I went by was the $10k throw away cars they make, my mistake.
30 cal slut
08-28-09, 06:36
Not to be a smart ass but, that car company is not known for quality cars
for now. i wouldn't put it past them to make some progress in U.S. market share ... if they stick to making a better gadget.
thirty years ago, if you said S. Korea would be getting into semiconductors and memory chips, you would have gotten laughed at. hard.
fast forward to now. s. korean firms own the global memory chip industry.
The Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, Vera Cruz and the Genesis Sedan and Coupe are far from throw away cars. Every single person I know that has one is extremely happy with it. My best friend bought one of their mini vans for his wife and they love it. To each his own. I just don't feel like American cars have anything to offer me anymore. Add to that the fact that GM and Chrysler are at least partially government owned and they are all beholden to the UAW, and I have just had enough.
Nathan_Bell
08-28-09, 10:10
Most vehicles that have a foreign counterpart are very different. Most foreign trucks have have the diesel option, which so many people in the US would love to have.
Nissan frontier is the nissan navara overseas. I have no idea why they do not offer the diesel here, Im sure it is something that makes no sense to anyone.
Diesel in the US.
One reason is that the "big minds" who market the vehicles are convinced that a small diesel will not sell in the US mass market. THey are still conviced that there are left over bad blood about the Oldsmobile debacle of 20 years ago.
Another reason is that US EPA regulations for diesels are a huge GD CF. To get one of these little diesels to be compliant with current US regs you are adding approximately $5k to the vehicle price.
With regard to the OP:
Those numbers are bullshit, and it's already been reported elsewhere. The government doctored the figures to make the small fuel efficient cars they want us to buy come out on top.
The truth is that small SUVS and even Full size trucks have done very well in the program. The reason is that the list counts each "truck" variation as a separate vehicle - as in 2WD I-4, 4WD I-4, 2WD V-6, 4WD V-6, etc. Notice the Escape 2WD was on the bottom of the top 10. Add in the other variations and it's at the top. Same goes for the pickups - 2WD, 4WD, Standard Cab, Extended Cab, Crew Cab, V-6, V-8, etc.
They don't want to admit that Americans like the cars and trucks that they like, and will buy them instead of little econoboxes as long as gas isn't too expensive.
As for Japanese vehicles:
First of all "Jap" is a racial slur, and using it belies your prejudice. Second of all, the Japanese have taken over ever market segment they have decided to compete in. The US auto industry ceded small cars, then midsize cars, and then full size cars. They retreated to the only area the Japanese don't compete in - large trucks and SUV's and put most of their eggs in one basket. And once gas prices skyrocketed they got caught with their pants down. I predicted this EXACT scenario back in 2001 when I was still working for Ford/Visteon. Non-competition is how they got into this mess in the first place!
Toyota delayed plans to put a big diesel in a heavy duty Tundra due to the market. But when things recover, if they go ahead with it they are expected to take a big piece of the market. That's not me talking, that's the industry experts at my former employer, a major producer of diesels for pickup trucks...
Heard on the news this morning that the money people received for their "clunkers" will be taxed by the government. They consider it as income. If that's true, its hardly surprising.
Heard on the news this morning that the money people received for their "clunkers" will be taxed by the government. They consider it as income. If that's true, its hardly surprising.
How much you want to bet that most of the people in the program didn't expect to owe taxes on it? Next there will be demands for tax relief because they can't pay...
How much you want to bet that most of the people in the program didn't expect to owe taxes on it? Next there will be demands for tax relief because they can't pay...
Most likely because the government didn't make any mention of it. Didn't see that disclaimer in any of the commercials.
First of all "Jap" is a racial slur, and using it belies your prejudice.
Not so much, dude. Now, "nip," on the other hand, is, indeed, a racial slur, and might offend someone. Jap is just short for Japanese.
Nip is short for Nipponese.. and it's offensive because combat troops in the pacific used it while killing the little ****ers. And as we all know, once you use a word while killing someone, it automatically converts it into a racial slur.
Since nobody using the term "Jap" (officers, journalists, politicians) has ever killed a Jap, it cannot be a racial slur.
freakshow10mm
08-28-09, 11:14
Nip is short for Nipponese.. and it's offensive because combat troops in the pacific used it while killing the little ****ers.
you cannot compete with those sneaky little ****ers.
These quotes from you paint an accurate picture of your attitude, creed, and ignorance.
Jap is short for Japanese in the same way Chink is short for Chinese, Spic is short for Spanish, and another world is short for Negro. Whether or not you agree, that is how it is, and you will judged accordingly.
Now, getting back to the topic, I did forget to mention that JD Power rankings on quality can be VERY misleading. The most commonly mentioned measure is "initial quality". This means that new owners are surveyed at various points - 1 month in service, 3 months in service, etc. - to get their impression of the quality of the vehicle.
While making improvements in defect levels that the customer notices right away is a step in the right direction, it has NOTHING to do with mid-term and long-term reliability. That is where the quality difference really starts to show up, and is why so many people are fed up with the American manufacturers. If you can lease a new one every 2 or 3 years and always stay in the warranty period, fine. But if you are buying with the intent of keeping it for a long time, it's a different story.
Despite what some hard core loyalist will tell you, US car manufacturers are not making what we want. If they were then they would not be floundering. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc have given us Economical, attractive and efficient cars. US makers gave us the Impala and Taurus. :rolleyes:
It is only in the last couple years that we started getting cars that were worth anything. Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu, Ford Fusion(sorta). Sadly Chrysler/Dodge never did figure it out.
Yes they do make some good trucks but quality has been lacking for years and they waited way to long to turn it around.
The US companies just found out what happens in an free and open market when your product sucks and you don't bother to pay attention to your customers.
The US auto industry made money hand over fist for quite some time making what Americans wanted - SUVs and Trucks - when gas was cheap. There is no denying this. They went where the market and the profits were. Selling small cars and even mid size cars is a low margin business, and that's why they got out of it. I worked at Ford during the record profits of the mid to late 90's.
Problem is, that was a bad strategy because it assumed that gas prices would stay low. One big gas price shock later, lots of people are changing what they want to drive. The market turned on a dime, seriously.
I know because I spent the last 6 years at another company making diesel engines for Ford. The market dried up overnight, and we stopped building a year ago. We went from 5,000 per week between two plants to 1,000 at the other plant and none at mine. We continued to make component parts at the lower lower volume, but now that is done and the plant is closed.
Problem is, you can't turn around your product line on a dime. It takes years to react to changes in demand. That's not to excuse the (former) Big-3 for their shortsightedness, poor management, bad quality, and UAW issues.
Long term demand will depend on gas prices, pure and simple. If Obama and his ilk want to mandate high mileage cars with low gas prices, they will fail.
Part of running a successful company is knowing the market and having a good idea of where it is going. While no one could have imagined gas prices jumping as fast as they did, anyone who didn't realize gas was going up, just had their head in the sand.
They failed to plan well, and they failed to adapt to the market.
Heard on the news this morning that the money people received for their "clunkers" will be taxed by the government. They consider it as income. If that's true, its hardly surprising.
Under the internal revenue code, anything and everything you receive is considered income, unless there is an exemption for it. In some cases, the IRS hasn't pushed the definition because of political concerns (technically, "services" provided by your spouse would be taxable at the fair market value, but the IRS hasn't gone after that . . . yet).
Jay Cunningham
08-28-09, 14:13
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