View Full Version : Noveske Stainless Barrel Carbon buildup
ColdDeadHands
08-27-09, 20:34
Hey all, for those of you with a Noveske SS Barrel;
Do you ever get a bunch of Carbon buildup around the muzzle? How do you clean/scrape it with the Flash hider installed?
I'm asking because the other day when I took my Comp off to replace it with a AAC FH I noticed thick carbon buildup around the muzzle and had to soak and scrape quite a bit to get the crust off...
If it's not degrading accuracy I don't worry about it. Scraping near the crown makes me nervous.
Could try Carbon Killer and use a toothbrush or something.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35490
ColdDeadHands
08-27-09, 21:56
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35490
Yea I've seen that...while it is very informative and will work on your chrome lined barrel, it is basically everything you shouldn't do according to John Noveske's Barrel cleaning instructions.
theJanitor
08-27-09, 21:58
i don't touch mine
ColdDeadHands
08-27-09, 22:50
If it's not degrading accuracy I don't worry about it. Scraping near the crown makes me nervous.
me too. however, I used a plastic scraper and didn't touch the crown.
I might try KG1 soaked q tips now that I can't remove the FH anymore. Maybe the key is to keep the steel around the crown lubricated to prevent buildup...
Any carbon that's on the flats of the barrel's end won't hurt anything in regards to accuracy.. For the crown, I would allow the solvent to soak on it for a few minutes and wipe off with Qtips. In general, you will lose your mind trying to get the flats and inside of the muzzle device totally clean. A little soaking and a light coat of oil and you wil be fne.
Yea I've seen that...while it is very informative and will work on your chrome lined barrel, it is basically everything you shouldn't do according to John Noveske's Barrel cleaning instructions.
John Noveske warns against using q-tips on his barrels?
ETA: I’m interested in knowing, what exactly are his barrel cleaning instructions? And just curious, why is the procedure in the link above everything you “shouldn’t do“ according to Noveske?
Also, I’m a bit confused. You’re willing to mechanically scrape the carbon off your barrel? But frown against using chemical action to loosen and remove carbon build up? Scraping carbon? Is that recommended by Noveske?
Don’t take this wrong, I don’t mean this disrespectfully, I just don’t understand the logic behind your willingness to mechanically scrape carbon buildup off the barrel, verses using chemical action and q-tips to remove carbon. I can understand if you or Noveske frown upon using BF BCF, but the carbon could be removed just the same, with your choice of cleaning agent and q-tips.
When I was in basic, I watched one of my DI's tell EVERYONE in the platoon to line up at the duty hut so he could dremel that part for our final inspection :eek: NOT what I would recomend
I have a Noveske 16.1" SS Recon barrel with a Vortex FH and I have not had a major problem so far with carbon build-up (several hundred rounds through rifle).
When I clean the rifle, I seperate the lower/ upper first and then clean the barrel and wipe-down the receiver and lastly clean the chamber. Afterwards, I finish cleaning the upper by wiping down the assembly with a rag and oil. During this process, I use a large cleaning (shotgun) patch that is soaked in Hoppes 9 and run it between the prongs of the FH to remove any carbon/ debris. Typically, there is not much there.
If you fire several hundred rounds through the barrel, it may be a different story.
Oh yes, I use Q-tips for the chamber. The Noveske guide recommends not using a Chamber Brush on the SS barrel, so it is my tool to get at the nooks and grannys.
No adverse affects noted.
I have spoken with John and the one item he stressed was his strong recommendation to NOT use steel cased ammunition in these SS barrels. I have followed his advice.
These barrels are pretty sturdy and well made. If you even excercise a modicum of care and don't abuse it. I sure it will serve you well for a long time.
I can't say enough about these barrels. They are extremely well made and ACCURATE. As a matter of fact I just ordered another one.
In the link below there is some great information on the Noveske rifles, particularly regarding the design/ manufacturing process (proprietary information not disclosed) from the owner himself. Though it may be dated it is still relavent.
He also discusses what vendors are utilized for the upper receivers, rails, and the lowers. Useful information and just serves to re-inforce my belief that Noveske Rifles are probably some of the best ARs on the market.
SkiDevil
P.S. If you want to read-up on the Noveske Barrels/ products from directly from the interview that was conducted with John by Defense Review.
Link: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/
ColdDeadHands
08-28-09, 07:31
John Noveske warns against using q-tips on his barrels? No
ETA: I’m interested in knowing, what exactly are his barrel cleaning instructions? And just curious, why is the procedure in the link above everything you “shouldn’t do“ according to Noveske?
As far as I understood it, chemicals are bad for the SS as it will absorb them. Here (http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/barrel_break-in.pdf) are the instructions.
Also, I’m a bit confused. You’re willing to mechanically scrape the carbon off your barrel? But frown against using chemical action to loosen and remove carbon build up? Scraping carbon? Is that recommended by Noveske?
No, that's why I'm looking for a better way.
Don’t take this wrong, I don’t mean this disrespectfully, I just don’t understand the logic behind your willingness to mechanically scrape carbon buildup off the barrel, verses using chemical action and q-tips to remove carbon. I can understand if you or Noveske frown upon using BF BCF, but the carbon could be removed just the same, with your choice of cleaning agent and q-tips.
Answers above in red
ColdDeadHands
08-28-09, 08:32
I have a Noveske 16.1" SS Recon barrel with a Vortex FH and I have not had a major problem so far with carbon build-up (several hundred rounds through rifle).
When I clean the rifle, I seperate the lower/ upper first and then clean the barrel and wipe-down the receiver and lastly clean the chamber. Afterwards, I finish cleaning the upper by wiping down the assembly with a rag and oil. During this process, I use a large cleaning (shotgun) patch that is soaked in Hoppes 9 and run it between the prongs of the FH to remove any carbon/ debris. Typically, there is not much there.
If you fire several hundred rounds through the barrel, it may be a different story.
Oh yes, I use Q-tips for the chamber. The Noveske guide recommends not using a Chamber Brush on the SS barrel, so it is my tool to get at the nooks and grannys.
No adverse affects noted.
I have spoken with John and the one item he stressed was his strong recommendation to NOT use steel cased ammunition in these SS barrels. I have followed his advice.
These barrels are pretty sturdy and well made. If you even excercise a modicum of care and don't abuse it. I sure it will serve you well for a long time.
I can't say enough about these barrels. They are extremely well made and ACCURATE. As a matter of fact I just ordered another one.
In the link below there is some great information on the Noveske rifles, particularly regarding the design/ manufacturing process (proprietary information not disclosed) from the owner himself. Though it may be dated it is still relavent.
He also discusses what vendors are utilized for the upper receivers, rails, and the lowers. Useful information and just serves to re-inforce my belief that Noveske Rifles are probably some of the best ARs on the market.
SkiDevil
P.S. If you want to read-up on the Noveske Barrels/ products from directly from the interview that was conducted with John by Defense Review.
Link: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/
Interesting read, thanks for the link. :)
ColdDeadHands
08-28-09, 08:35
Well, looking down the at the muzzle end - it may not be of concern anymore with the AAC Blackout installed, there really isn't much room for carbon buildup. It was a concern tho with the Vltor VC-1.
It appears that his instructions for cleaning a stainless barrel have grounds in his work with Pac-Nor and revolve around benchrest shooting. Ammonia cleaners appear to assist in the development of fire cracking in the throat area which is of concern to the benchrest crowd who look for exceptional accuracy. Stainless brushes have been noted to scratch the bore, again a detriment to accuracy when one is looking for benchrest winning groups. It's not so much avoid chemicals and brushes, more avoid ammonia and stainless brushes in stainless barrels where your primary concern is accuracy.
As far as I understood it, chemicals are bad for the SS as it will absorb them. Here are the instructions.
Thanks for the follow up, and posting a link to Noveske’s cleaning procedures. But after reading those instructions I do not see a reference to NOT using bore solvents to clean the bore or bore solvents being bad for the bore. The instructions actually reference a few bore solvents, most of which I’m sure are stronger than BF BCF.
From that link.......
Cleaning Supplies & Techniques
You will need a good carbon solvent, like KG 1. Shooters Choice or CR-10 will chemically loosen the copper fouling, but KG 2 is found to remove the copper without the use of chemical solvents which may attack barrel steel. After cleaning with chemical solvents, neutralize the solvents with denatured alcohol or oil and patch dry.
If using KG 2 or any other micro abrasive product, use KG 3 solvent to flush out the bore, spraying from the breech with muzzle end down. Always finish with Tetra Gun Oil or KG 4. Never shoot a dry bore (chemically stripped) as this will greatly promote copper fouling. Clean the chamber with a cloth chamber mop, not a GI chamber brush.
ColdDeadHands
08-28-09, 12:52
this is what I got out of it (see red);
You will need a good carbon solvent, like KG 1. Shooters Choice or CR-10 will chemically loosen the copper fouling, but KG 2 is found to remove the copper without the use of chemical solvents which may attack barrel steel. After cleaning with chemical solvents, neutralize the solvents with denatured alcohol or oil and patch dry.
If using KG 2 or any other micro abrasive product, use KG 3 solvent to flush out the bore, spraying from the breech with muzzle end down. Always finish with Tetra Gun Oil or KG 4. Never shoot a dry bore (chemically stripped) as this will greatly promote copper fouling. Clean the chamber with a cloth chamber mop, not a GI chamber brush.
Heavy Metal
08-28-09, 12:54
I doubt there is anything in break free foaming bore cleaner which will harm your barrel steel in any way, shape or form.
ColdDeadHands
08-28-09, 12:58
There might not be, but I think I'll stick to the KG products...they are working very well.
Razorhunter
08-28-09, 13:20
It's perfectly normal for LOTS of carbon to build up on the very tip of your muzzle, down inside the muzzle device.
I have not seen an AR, EVER that did not have buildup on this area of the muzzle.
I suppose there COULD be some type of muzzle device that might cut down on the amount of buildup? but I'm not sure. I usually only install A2 FH's, but I've seen build up on many different AR's which other guys own.
The ONLY way to remove this buildup, is to soak the tip of the bbl in solvent, or scrape it off (not recommended)
Just for the hell of it, I once had a new Colt 6920 bbl, which I removed from the upper (for other reasons) and since it was off the gun, I decided to soak the tip of the muzzle in solvent.
It took several hours of soaking and wiping/brushing off just to remove a couple hundred rounds of build up.
It's perfectly normal though, and there is really no need to remove it.
I just did the above test out of boredom one day as an experiment.
It's peripheral, but since you quoted John N. saying NOT to use a chamber brush--only a mop--why is that? How would a bronze brush hurt the chamber? Unless you put it in a drill motor or something stupid...
It's peripheral, but since you quoted John N. saying NOT to use a chamber brush--only a mop--why is that? How would a bronze brush hurt the chamber? Unless you put it in a drill motor or something stupid...
hmm no idea but I assume if John says something he usually has a reason for it.
I am considering buying this barrel. Sounds like it is a little sensitive. no solvents no brushes.
I would be interested to hear from some people who have taken this barrel into combat.
Razorhunter
08-28-09, 15:54
WHO said no SOLVENTS? I don't think I've heard that before.
Noveske SS bbls are no different than any other bbls guys. I mean, as far as borebrush use goes.
It's a known fact that you don't want to go scrubbing the hell out of a SS bbl with standard USGI borebrushes or chamber brushes with the bronze bristles. Bronze bristles can microscopically begin to scour/scratch the SS bbls. That's all. You ever been to Autozone and seen those little "3-packs" of metal bristled brushes? They look like toothbrushes with metal bristles. One is SS, one is bronze, and the other is usually plastic bristled.
That's because you DO NOT use bronze bristles on SS. You CAN use SS bristles on SS I think.
If you look in the Midway/Brownells catalogs, or in the Dewey catalogs, you will usually see brushes specifically made for SS bbls.
What you CAN use, and what MOST guys are using (even on their regular CL'd bbls) is the nylon borebrushes and chamber brushes.
These bbls are EASILY cleanable guys. Just use nylon brushes, and you're good to go.
I don't think Noveske has stated not to use "SOLVENTS has he????
On the contrary, I've read the bbl care instructions, and they DO say to use solvents...
These bbls are not sensitive. They are some of the HARDEST SS bbls on the planet. They test EXTREMELY hard on the Rockwell scale, MUCH harder than many other stainless steels...
Ammonia solvents can damage the bore if not properly and completely flushed out. I cannot find Brake-Free foaming bore cleaner on their website so I do not know what is in it.
Use a chamber mop or nylon chamber brush. The twisted wire that holds the bristles is stainless in the GI chamber brush, if it's bent and pushed in too far it can contact the throat.
http://www.noveskerifleworks.com/barrel_break-in.pdf
M-Pro 7 have a carbon gun cleaner and a copper remover cleaner. None of them have nasty stuff including no ammonia in them. They should be plenty safe on SS
When I got my McMillan rifle cleaning kit it had M-Pro 7 in it
Razorhunter
08-28-09, 16:30
Ahh yes, Ammonia solvents.
I guess I just got used to NEVER using ANY type of bore solvent that couldn't be left in the bore for a long period of time. That's standard practice for me, even in CL'd bbls. Thanks for chiming in Todd!
Good to see you here from time to time!
Ammonia solvents can damage the bore if not properly and completely flushed out. I cannot find Brake-Free foaming bore cleaner on their website so I do not know what is in it.
Sir,
At the time BF BCF was listed on their web site, this was the product description. I take this to read that BF BCF does not contain ammonia.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/BCFpageSm.jpg
This is the product description from the current Break-Free catalog downloaded this morning from their web site.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/BFFBC.jpg
Heavy Metal
08-29-09, 10:18
A pH of 12 is pretty dang alkaline. That is about the same as quicklime.
That is the opposite of a pH of 2.
The MSDS would tell the story.
That's because you DO NOT use bronze bristles on SS. You CAN use SS bristles on SS I think.
backwards... you absolutely cannot use SS brushes on SS barrels. SS brushes will scratch the shit out of SS barrels. you can, however, use bronze brushes on SS barrels, but nylon is safer.
The MSDS would tell the story.
I’ve searched, but came up empty handed.
Heavy Metal
08-30-09, 11:23
I use the BF FBC to clean an AK's gas system where I can't remove the tube for cleaning due to optical mounting considerations.
Going back to the subject of PH levels.......... I’m by far no expert on PH scales, but I did find a chart that compared a PH level of 12 to that of soapy water.
I always wondered what effect scraping the muzzle crown free of carbon would have. I have a friend who has OCD and has to remove all teh carbon from the muzzle crown every time he shoots his rifle. I always wondered if it would degrade the accuracy, but never really tested his rifle out or kept notes to see if it did. He even uses a soft SS bruch on it. What do you guys think in regards to scraping the muzzle crown with a bronze or soft SS brush; decreased accuracy over a long period of time; or quick deteriation? He hasn't had any noticealbe problems with accuracy, but he shoots very little so I can't really be sure?
WOuld love to know. I usually waste hours soaking and nicely removing as much as I can with the time I have to do so. I will use a very small bronze detailing brush if there are large deposits; sometimes, but mostly nylon brush and q-tips. I don't remove it all, but try and get most.
Any opinions on scrapping the crown as it relates to damage to the crown/muzzle/accuracy of the rifle?
Thanks.
Does carbon buildup around the crown / between the barrel and muzzle device promote rusting or pitting at all?
Any opinions on scrapping the crown as it relates to damage to the crown/muzzle/accuracy of the rifle?
Thanks.
My opinion is, tell your friend to stop it right now. Find something different to occupy the OCD. I can't conceive that you could hurt the crown by wiping q-tips on it with mild solvent or CLP, but keep those brushes away!
you can use bronze brushes to clean the muzzle. the "crown" itself doesn't need any cleaning- blast keeps it clean. but even if you got bronze bristle on crown, you'd be fine. every stroke of a bore brush brushes the crown, afterall.
i'm on the fence about muzzle cleaning.. we got into a fairly nasty debate over it once some time ago, and no consensus was ever come to. i think occasional cleaning is fine, but i'd be afraid of wearing my threads from torquing the MD off and on, no to mention the stressing of the steel.
when i DO clean, i'll soak with solvent, scrape with a piece of sharpened brass, then brush with solvent soaked bronze brush.
you can use bronze brushes to clean the muzzle. the "crown" itself doesn't need any cleaning- blast keeps it clean. but even if you got bronze bristle on crown, you'd be fine. every stroke of a bore brush brushes the crown, afterall.
i'm on the fence about muzzle cleaning.. we got into a fairly nasty debate over it once some time ago, and no consensus was ever come to. i think occasional cleaning is fine, but i'd be afraid of wearing my threads from torquing the MD off and on, no to mention the stressing of the steel.
when i DO clean, i'll soak with solvent, scrape with a piece of sharpened brass, then brush with solvent soaked bronze brush.
Thanks for the info bkb000. Do you think using a soft SS brush as my friend did would hurt his crown? I saw the bursh and it appeared to be just maybe 10-20 very tiny bristles and wasn't as hard as most SS bristles I have seen/felt. I think he should be fine, but if he is potentially damaging his crown I want to let him know so he can re-think his OCD cleaning methods. Also from what I have observed; he just scrapes it from inside the FH wihtout removing it; soaking it for very extended periods of time in between scrapping, and repeating this several times each time he cleans. FYI. I tried to tell him he was overdoing it; but if I can show him he is really over doing it and may be causing some damage; I could save the guy some money on cleaning solution (HE uses the same amount I use in 1 year, in about 2 months! I believe primarily hopps #9 solvent, but he has others I am not familiar with as well); not to mention save him an imense amount of time.
Thanks again!
My opinion is, tell your friend to stop it right now. Find something different to occupy the OCD. I can't conceive that you could hurt the crown by wiping q-tips on it with mild solvent or CLP, but keep those brushes away!
Thanks for the info; I'll send it his way and maybe he will realize he is overdoing it wihtout cause; and increasing the potential for damage.
How can one really tell if the crown or muzzle is damaged? I have seen dents and dimples, and burrs before on rifles with damage, but could a small scrape from a very tiny wire mess up accuracy; and if so, what would he need to look for to tell? Is it just the crown that is important/fragile; or is it the face of the muzzle as well?
yea- stainless steel is definitely no-go. stainless brushes should all be rounded up and sent to concentration camps, used for slave labor till near death, then gassed and buried in mass graves. we should all hate their very existence. :)
bronze bristle.... nothing more. bronze is harder than carbon, but softer than 41xx series steel. we think of stainless steel as being soft, because stainless barrels are softer than CMV, but stainless steel is actually a very hard metal, and WILL damage barrels- especially the delicate edge of a crown.
Right on; thanks bkb000; I'll pass the info along, and hopefully he will comply; his OCD is pretty terrible though; you should see him load and unload a mag over and over again; jeesh!!!!!!!!!!!!
Belmont31R
07-08-10, 15:45
I really don't think its anything to be concerned about.
Ive taken muzzle devices off, and there was actually a solid carbon ring inside of the MD with a hole in it just big enough to fit the bullet through. I never noticed any accuracy loss even when it got that fouled.
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