View Full Version : LONG GUN AND MOVEMENT CONSIDERATIONS
I think it's a subject that needs its own attention. I'd like to discuss when and why we would take a long gun as well as why we might leave it. I'd also like to discuss how we might transport it. I think discussing that dilemma might have bearing on sopme of the other discussions, as well as potentially a bigger picture of bugging out, alamo'ing up, and our general game plan.
I'll post more when I get back from the gym.
ColdDeadHands
08-30-09, 08:20
tag :cool:
I think this is a great topic for discussion, but I think that those that participate are going to need to be clear as to their A/O and what situation they are planning for. What I do leaving my old apartment in downtown Ft. Lauderdale because we're being force-evac'd in front of a hurricane is going to be a lot different than what someone else is going to do in rural bum**** after a social or government collapse.
There will be some constants, but things like this are ALL situational IMHO.
Outlander Systems
08-30-09, 09:22
Tagging/tossing .02 worth:
I was thinking about this last night.
For any prolonged, statewide/region-wide/nationwide crisis, I would probably find any way possible to keep one on my person. Now, where my mental rigidity comes into factor is that natural disasters, from my point of view, aren't "it".
Economic implosion would present a unique and challenging tactical opportunity. This particular crisis would carry its own set of problems. Short of hordes of riotous, looters, a long arm might not be the most tactically sound weapon. I don't see the situation being too terribly different than current "normal" life, just with less money, lots of disenfranchised people, and probably a 20-fold increase in crime. Wandering the streets at this point, with any sort of combat load-out, will simply make the operator a target. This would be a semi-bug-in scenario, where the SFW is going to be present and available, but not one's main weapon.
Before going into any more GTG/NG on the deployment of SFWs in a disaster situation, I think we need to define the threat levels, so-to-speak.
Thermonuclear holocaust, and Hurricane John Doe both carry with them distinctly different circumstances.
This thread has monumentally righteous potential...
ETA: Rob responded while I was posting, and he's absolutely right. My circumstances are completely different in Metropolitan Atlanta, than they would be if I was in Leiper's Fork, Tennessee. The logistics for planning an evac here would be nightmarish at best. The last thing I want to do is get out there into the "party" if the SHTF here in Atlanta.
There's also the question of not only the situation, but what you want the gun to do in the situation.
Do you need this?
http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/coltm4-m203-nsn-a.jpg
or this?
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8858/m6vn3.jpg
kaiservontexas
08-30-09, 10:00
tag for interest . . .
I do not have much to add. The only thing I could say is that my long arm would come out if the crisis was a total chaos situation. Now what would cause that is hard to say, but if all is broken down around me and messed up the rifle will be out in the open. Anything else requires discretion in my opinion. Then again I have never gone through such a thing and these are just my thoughts.
kaiservontexas
08-30-09, 10:01
There's also the question of not only the situation, but what you want the gun to do in the situation.
Do you need this?
http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/coltm4-m203-nsn-a.jpg
or this?
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8858/m6vn3.jpg
Good point . . .
I went to the gym and ate some chow and you guys are already ahead of me!! here's what I've written so far. I'll continue in a while.
There seems to be quite a bit of discussion about “bugging out” and what kit to carry. There are plenty of options out there but one question that continues to come up is how to stay “the grey man” and still carry a long gun. I think we need to take a hard look at our situation, the circumstances we might find ourselves in, and what to do about that long gun. Because we need to have some context to our situation we’ll try to paint in broad strokes, and add specifics as necessary. To be honest, if we keep things realistic I think we’ll find most decisions won’t be too different no matter the circumstances.
By definition “bugging out” means we are moving. We want to move from point A to point B. What are our points??? Our home?? Work? A vehicle? A public forum? A predetermined “safe” house or sight?? A hasty hide or building to occupy?? By definition we are trying to get somewhere of lesser advantage to a place of better advantage. The exception would be moving to SOMEONE, like our family or friends in need, someone in trouble or disabled, etc.
Regardless of why we are leaving we have determined that we need to be somewhere else. Inherently that means we have a purpose and to move accordingly. I can’t think of a single reason to move and not have a destination and not be highly motivated to get there. Even if you don’t have a specific location and only know the place you’re at is sucking, you still probably aren’t going to move like it’s a Sunday drive. Speed becomes a factor.
For this discussion we’re going to talk about moving on foot. If we have a vehicle then the point is almost moot. Believe me, if I’m alamo’ing up or moving in a vehicle then the gear I chose and the time and distance I can cover are a different discussion.
So if we’re moving on foot we need to be VERY conscious of what we carry. There are tons of discussions about what and how people will carry life saving equipment and comfort items. We can talk about that too, but the one item that continues to arise is that pesky long gun. Do we need it?? Should we take it?? How? What if we don’t take it?? What are we going to do with it??
Answering some of these questions and coming up with some solutions might help us in the rest of our loadout. Determining what we carry and how we carry it also determines what we can accomplish. Things like where we can go and how far we can travel are directly related to the solutions above.
Simple math tells us we can go farther without a long gun. If I fore go a long gun (in this case an M4 carbine) that means I don’t have a 7-10 pound rifle and 3-10 pounds of ammo (one mag weighs approximately 1 pound). Can you move farther with 10-20 pounds less?? I think I can.
What do we consider in making that determination? Now things get somewhat tricky. Each person envisions different situations. I think the biggest consideration is the geographic location we find ourselves in as well as the circumstances that have made us move. Let’s run down a few somewhat generic situations and make some decisions from there.
On foot, I think, limits the discussion to some pretty serious "society is dissolving" type shit. Something has to have happened to either make road travel by vehicle inhospitable (too many hostile government types, other hostile parties or groups, etc.), impossible (some kind of EM pulse situation taking out all the vehicles, no gas, etc.), or similar.
The information in the link below has been posted here before, but I don't think the complete story or from the same source. I think there is pertinent information within the story to this discussion and is a good read in general.
WARNING: I have no ****ing clue about the web page it is hosted on.
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/10.08/tshtf1.html
Good read!
All of this kind of confirms for me that by and large, even with widespread economic and social collapse, we aren't looking at scenarios where we're likely to be traveling any significant distances with a slung rifle and a chest rig. The author mentioned at one point having a folded-stock FAL PARA beneath his coat, but he had it on him because he was already going shooting with a friend. It sounds like to me that the only feasible way to be carrying any kind of long gun is if that long gun is fairly short or can be made short (collapsible stocks, folding stocks, SBRs, etc.), and concealable.
-B
Outlander Systems
08-30-09, 16:17
Ferfal's analysis is an excellent resource. Consider him a "Subject Matter Expert".
I've decided to post a new thread, addressing the thought process that Josh's link sent me down, as everything I've written will seriously compromise the excellent direction of this thread. Thusly, I'll take everything I've posted here, and put it in a different one.
In short, depending on the level of systemic disaster, a long arm may be a very useful tool.
Begin Cut
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link to new thread: "Threat Matrix - Disaster Radar" (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=443178#post443178)
An SBR might fit the bill for many diff. reasons/situations.
PA PATRIOT
08-30-09, 17:49
While this is not a rifle by no means other option would be to turn a pistol into a small PDW with the addition of a stock, forward grip and 33rd magazines. While this is very illegal to do unless you apply for a $200.00 stamp and register the pistol as a AOW it is but another option to consider. After all the paper work is finished and approved one could carry the light weight plastic stock and forearm in your BOB and convert the pistol on your hip when needed. A Glock Model 34 or 35 would be ideal for such a conversion IMHO.
Something like this,
http://www.zahal.org/rifle/p22.htm
Sorry if this is too far off topic but I think its possible adaptability fits into some of the needs of a small PDW.
PA PATRIOT
08-30-09, 17:56
I have never really come across a "Civilian" looking vest which fit my needs for storage of magazines and other small items without looking like I was 300lbs and hiding something. What type of Vests are members using to fit this mission which may cover a PDW or a M-4?
I'm pretty sure my studies over the years have indicated that stocked pistols didn't really give more than a theoretical advantage in accuracy over standard pistols, which is why they never really became popular.
I'd rather use the weight and bulk to carry a BUG instead of the stock. Then, I have a second gun just in case, or a means to arm a family member if need be, etc.
This is a direct link to Ferfel's site, onto the firearms page;
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/search/label/Firearms
Scroll down to the "Why your first gun should be a handgun" blog.
Other links include topics we have been discussing, including his suggestions for "get-home-bags", etc.
I've got a bigger post I'm working on but I'm liking the thought process I'm seeing so far.
A few themes I'm recognizing is that getting all "jocked up" might not be the best initial solution, weight is a concern, and scalability might be something to think about.
If possible, let's try to keep this thread about the long gun. I realize the threads cross topic a bit, but how we interact with the long gun in a bug out situation is the specific topic.
Rob, the presumption of being on foot is pertinent to this topic because a vehicle makes all the parameters change. We can go farther, carry more, hide it easier, etc. Is it plausible?? I can think of MANY situations where having to move on foot comes up. Something as simple a a disabled vehicle, to a vehicle being a bullet magnet (OCUNUS) to natural disaster egress. Major arteries seem to get clogged in a hurry. I know in VA Beach getting out of town for the hurricanes was tricky. I can't imagine what it's like in your neck of the woods.
I'll writing my posts in WORD and then dropping them in here. I type like **** so losing an entire post ruins my whole day. :)
Back to the topic. When do we need a long gun?? Do we need one if our vehicle broke down on a rural road and we’re trying to walk to help? Probably not, but are we comfortable leaving it in the vehicle? That also depends. It depends on if you have it in something like a Truck Safe, and what the overall situation is like. If we know it’s only about 10 miles back to somewhere we can get some help then it might be better to leave the rifle and haul ass to a known destination. It’s about probabilities and in this situation, stateside, it’s probably best to leave the long gun. Even with a longer distance (for you truly rural folks) I don't think it changes much.
If the exact same situation happened in Iraq or Afghanistan, you can bet the long gun is coming with. Talking to some coworkers last night we went over every situation we knew of where people had to un-ass a vehicle and most said that at the time they were worried about just getting out and grabbing ANYTHING was second on the priority list. Several made mention of grabbing their bags but burning everything else (including belt feds) in place. I’m not saying if any of these actions are right or wrong only that the situation dictates what we’re going to do.
Another situation might be some kind of natural disaster. For this situation let’s assume we’re ahead of the power curve and a disaster is pending, but hasn’t occurred yet. Some examples might be hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, etc. Often times the routes from a city to a more rural area become clogged. We might just need to make it from our home or business to another “better” location. In this situation we will probably encounter many more people, both good and bad.
Again, is the long gun necessary? Maybe not yet, but I probably wouldn’t want to leave all my guns to be burned in a fire. I’d like to think that even if I don’t need the rifle right now, it might be the only chance I have to keep possession of one.
The next logical “threat” would be the same situations above, but, for whatever reason, we’re in the thick of it or post disaster. Think hurricane Katrina or some of the looting I’ve seen in the Midwest post tornado. In this situation we can expect more social unrest, historically meaning people become more desperate and predatory. Do we need a long gun?? If I’m moving through an area full of people capable of horrible acts for their own self preservation I’m probably even more inclined to move as quickly as possible. I don’t think provoking any actions from people in this type of situation is advisable. What I mean by provoking is giving them any reason (in their eyes) to interact with you. Moving as quickly and quietly as possible seems to, again, be the best answer.
I’m going to stop there because any situations we come up with past this are probably not based on history and might seem a bit “far off” for some. I think the examples we’ve chosen are somewhat realistic and if we discuss these events we probably can get some decent ideas for “end of the world, social breakdown, zombies, et al."
So what are our choices?? Leave the long gun, hide the long gun, take the long gun but have it concealed, take the long gun and look like you’re ready for a fight? Anything else?
I can't imagine a circumstance that a "Sneaky Bag" and a "Sneaky Rifle Bag" wouldn't be an asset. Walking home (or out) through an urban neighbourhood, or transporting in a vehicle if I had a rifle with me it would be in a Sneaky Bag.
The Sneaky Rifle bag allows you to carry a carbine or even full sized battle rifle in a low profile even covert way, and when you add a Mini Sneaky Bag into the outside pocket that has 6-10 mags you have a full kit in one low pro bag. Obviously not a combat load out but a serviceable way to carry a long arm that can be put into action quickly if needed.
Obviously we should all be carrying a sidearm concealed, and a Sneaky rifle bag slung over your shoulder or beside you in your car would be about the best solution I can imagine, in fact I transport my long arms all the time this way. I have several of the Sneaky Bags that are made to fit a 10.5" SBR all the way up to a full sized battle rifle, if I was bugging out today... I would probably take either an SBR AR15 or a PARA FAL in a Sneaky Bag with 10mags and few extra pistol mags and a trauma kit. A 16" AR in a the medium sized Sneaky Bag is a handy package too.
10.5" AR in small Covert Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 30 round magazine and an optic.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/cameron__personal/Misc/AR10SneakyBag01.jpg
16" PARA FAL in small covert Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 20 round magazine and an optic.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/cameron__personal/Misc/FALSneakyBag01.jpg
16" AR in medium Sneaky Bag, fits fully loaded with a 30 round magazine and an optic.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/cameron__personal/Misc/AR16SneakyBag01.jpg
Here is my bug out load out. Each bag contains:
10.5" SBR AR with 30round mag and EOTech, front pocket has Mini Sneaky Bag with 6 x 30 round mags, 4 x Glock mags, blow out kit.
16" PARA FAL with 20 round mag and EOTech, front pocket has Mini Sneaky Bag with 6 x 20 round mags, 4 x Glock mags, blow out kit.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/cameron__personal/Misc/SneakyBags01.jpg
Either bag could be slung over your shoulder even when wearing a small back pack, or could ride in the passenger's side foot well of your vehicle.
If the situation requires a more immediate state of preparedness, the Mini Sneaky bag is slung over the shoulder and secured with the waste strap so that reloads are accessible in a fight.
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/cameron__personal/Misc/SneakyBags02.jpg
Cameron
One of the reasons I posted the two guns I did on the last page is because what your reasoning for wanting a rifle is are going to be different for everyone. The M4 is something that can be pressed into service as a feeding tool but is more suited to a defensive role, and the M6 is something that offers a very wide range of game that can be taken, but may be very tough to use for defense.
So are we talking primarily defense, or food?
I like a couple of the bags, but damn that's a bunch of shit. Even a small 3 day pack would make that loadout somewhat cumbersome. I'm sure you'll argue that it won't, and you may have a shit ton of experience moving with that much kit, but it won't be as fast as without some of it. I suspect for the average reader of this forum that extra ~15 pounds of kit would take its toll.
As I said in the beginning, I'm just trying t get people to think REALISTICALLY about what circumstances they might find themselves in, and prioritize what gear needs to go. I'm not saying one way is right or wrong. I think across the board, if you haven't had the "opportunity" to move several (think 5-20) miles with all your gear, while being chased, and trying to maintain a low profile, you should. The being chased part might reserved for cool schools and down range, but adding the sense of urgency might just make it more realistic.
It's just hard for me to agree that EVERY circumstance we're discussing MUST have an m4 and a bunch of mags. I know it's M4C and all, but I don't think it's a requirement. :) For the record I'm in the "if I have a chance to have a long gun, I will" crowd, but I'm also a bit more pragmatic in my thinking that it's always the best choice. I'm certainly not in the crowd that thinks "gun first" for most applications. I'd rather worry about things like "shoes first" since I wear flipflops about 350 days a year. :)
I agree, that is a ****load of crap. and with no other supplies other than ammo and a gun. I have one of those mini Sneaky shoulder bags I find it to start digging into the should with nothing much more than 2-3 AR mags after a couple of hours.
Food for thought in the gun department
Kel-Tec SU16C (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm) (supposedly can be fired folded)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16c_pic01.jpg
Kel-Tech SU16CA (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16ca.htm)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16ca_pic01.jpg
Kel-Tech SU16D12 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16d.htm) (12" barrel, if you don't mind going NFA)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16d_pic01.jpg
I don't know if it is something in the water in Wyoming, but I was always raised with preparedness drilled into me, and the question of SHTF collapse not being an if, but a when. Do I agree that I will see it in my life? No, but that doesn't mean it wasn't part of my culture.
I will be honest I got into the M4 because I wanted to add it to my survival kit, I learned about it later. I chose it for several reasons if you want me to list them later I will. But to answer your question if I am bugging out on foot, or in a car yes it will be coming with me 100%. Here is my environment:
I live less then 70 miles from the largest urban center in the U.S. (NYC), and am on a direct evac route from the city. There is a nuclear power plant 50 miles south of me that is in horrible shape (has been for years), and it is possible that a meltdown may take place, plus it is a big friggen target. My entire area is a big friggen target. I live on the first "rural" exit off the throughway. My town is full of racial, socio-economic, and drug fueled tension. My town will become a refugee camp if there is ever an evac from the city, and I am willing to bet my life on the fact that Katrina style looting and violence is a given.
So we will be bugging out, we know where, and we know how. My rifle will be coming with me in my pack and will not be deployed in a threatening way until I am safely out of the population centers. This is because I am willing to bet that the visible deployment of any firearm in my town would result in the carrier being shot. The officers in my area have a very shoot first ask questions later attitude. Usually it is with a taser or pepper spray, but I have no doubt they would employ the same tactic with their side arms given the above situation. Also my town has a law in place that the transport of any firearms during a "state of emergency" is forbidden. I sh@t you not, it's on the books.
Why the long gun? My plan has always been to evac before problems arise, and the location has always been an area of natural wild land that I have been familiar with (no matter where I have lived). I am more comfortable, and capable in the natural environment then most, and I feel safest when I am in it and away from people. The long gun offers me versatility in this environment. It offers me the ability to engage targets at ranges beyond the average joe with a pistol can hit, thus limiting my need for human contact (ie I am able to address parties verbally outside of 50 yards to determine their intent). While the caliber isn't the best hunting round, for the game in my area it is more then enough to provide food as well. The M4 also isn't so "long" that it is un-wieldy in close situations (obviously).
Can I transport it and ammunition? You bet. I have been hiking my whole life, and my pack is actually designed so that I can add the extra 15 pounds. I do actually train in this environment with a pack in order to be sure of this. The rest of the gear in the two packs (mine and my fiances) are as critical to our survival as well. The way I look at it is I could bug out for a long enough time period to avoid any massive social un-rest for a long enough period with my set up that I could outlast the length of typical immediate breakdowns of infrastructure (IE Katrina ext).
Hope that is clear.
and Cameron I know you know your stuff but I have to say that if I saw you huffing up a trail with that bag, plus the small bag, plus a bug out bag I would have to chuckle to myself.
Not directed at you, but my fiance and I after reading the thread "how many mags for a SHTF" have started to refer to the firearm heavy bug-outers as "supply trucks, and gold mines".
One of the reasons I posted the two guns I did on the last page is because what your reasoning for wanting a rifle is are going to be different for everyone. The M4 is something that can be pressed into service as a feeding tool but is more suited to a defensive role, and the M6 is something that offers a very wide range of game that can be taken, but may be very tough to use for defense.
So are we talking primarily defense, or food?
Bugging anywhere in 24-48 hours to me means no hunting. No fishing kit, no snares, likely no fires, etc. Since a couple energy bars, a bottle of water, etc., is the most that I'm putting in a "day or two, tops" kit, that eliminates the "hunting" purpose for carrying a log gun. I think that probably applies to most of us, except those living in bear country.
My biggest question is: under what circumstances would we realistically be traveling on foot with a long gun? In-CONUS, the only reason I can think of to be moving on foot with a long gun would be because I don't want to leave it in a disabled vehicle (meaning I have time and opportunity to grab the rifle). Carrying a rifle in a bag means you probably can't get it out quick; pulling the rifle most likely means preparing for a fight, not reacting to one having already started, so the defensive purpose of carrying a rifle is already pretty limited.
As part of a neighborhood patrol, as was seen in Katrina, having the long gun out and slung is prudent; you're walking the neighborhood protecting your community, and you're most likely with a few others with at least one more gun of some kind. As part of a home & property protection lineup, a long gun is king (early '90s LA riots). But generally speaking, due to the complications of "bugging" with a long gun, it's hard for me to imagine a circumstance that would cause us to consistently include long guns in our "bug out" or "bug home" preps outside of a decision not to leave the weapon in a vehicle.
Edit: I guess that's a longer way of saying "I agree with Josh." :D
-B
RogerinTPA
08-31-09, 15:56
I agree with the "Low Pro" and "avoiding crowds" comments while moving on foot.
Personally, I can't imagine a foot movement, with out a long gun of some sort, even a broken down AR. Thinking about it, you'd be better off practicing pistol marksmanship at various ranges, until proficient. You'd be more low profile with a G19 with extended mags or M&P9 concealed, then "Trade up" if and when, the need arises. I still think that a broken down AR, in a backpack with several mags, is worth the hump. The flip side is the larger the ruck, the more you look like you have something worth taking, including your life, for the contents. If you look at the most recent hurricane scenarios, most folks were unprepared with no ruck, just the clothes on their back. You'd stick out like a soar thumb. Maybe setting up a patrol base or hide site, every so often with like minded people, would be the better choice. That way, you could go to "low profile mode" to scavenge and forge for food and water, in pairs, while the base with the rucks, is protected by the larger force. If alone, treat it as a E&E situation, with a ruck, stay off the main roads, move at night, set up camp and travel in difficult/defendable terrain where most urban folks won't go. Of course the AR will be in hand at that point. Going solo, you can set up an individual hide site, and go "low pro" when venturing out.
Personally I have with me at any given time a pair of sunglasses, jeans, flip-flops, wallet and a handgun, Starbuck Gold card and chap stick (I get dry lips...) I don't keep a rifle and a chest rig in the trunk when driving around town.
However, this thread is about disaster preparation and planning, and specifically the OP asked about
LONG GUN AND MOVEMENT CONSIDERATIONS
I think it's a subject that needs its own attention.
I'd like to discuss when and why we would take a long gun as well as why we might leave it. [B]I'd also like to discuss how we might transport it.[/B
If I have to get home on foot (highways closed and vehicle trapped) I will be wearing seasonally relevant clothing and carrying a pistol.
If I am leaving my home for a really bad reason, a true disaster and I anticipate a challenging time of it, in addition to the ubiquitous handgun, I would prefer to take a small, light semi auto rifle in my vehicle in a low profile bag should I have to hoof it.
Would I take to the streets, on foot, with my wife in tow and nothing but the chap stick? Sure if I had to. However, if I was loading the vehicle up in order to escape a disaster, I certainly would take the time to stuff a sneaky bag with a loaded rifle in the passenger compartment. Do you need a rifle? No. Is it good to have one if people have become targets? Yes. Is it pretty easy to carry an decent pack and a rifle for several miles on foot? That really depends who does the carrying. Living active lifestyles in the Colorado Rocky Mountains my wife and I would have no trouble carrying 3 day of food and water with a rifle and ammo as we have done it before. If I have to ditch it all and run for my life I can do that too...
A little logical discernment helps. While either case is very improbable I can see a situation arising that one may need a weapon for defense as much more likely than a weapon to harvest food.
Cameron
I personally am not to big a fan of the sneaky bags even with my trimmed down kit. Seems OK for short use or movement from the office to the truck but would suck in the bush.
The Sneaky/Covert rifle bag is exactly for the urban non-permissive environment, not for the bush. There would be no need to have a rifle hidden when hiking in a rural area, I frequently walk the woods with a slung rifle or in a gun bearer on a pack.
The whole idea of the sneaky/covert option is that they are for transporting a somewhat accessible rifle in such a way that it passes casual scrutiny.
Like I said, intelligent discernment plays a large part in this.
Cameron
Looking at the camo, bug out and rifles threads makes me think an SBR'd AR in a low profile color, such as OD or flat dark earth, combined with low profile clothing, earth tones like many of the hiking and casual clothes, instead of camo or whatever, could combine to make a very low profile open, or semi-concealed, rifle carry feasible.
I have walked in to stuff in our town where we needed to get close to look-outs in order to pull off a search warrant, or were looking to take down armed subjects in a specific spot, and used a CAR15 under a field jacket to get close without being spotted too soon.
That Sneaky bag to carry a couple-3 mags combined with a low profile color carbine would work pretty well in my experience, depending on weather and clothing, etc.
Can you give me an idea of what you plan on carrying should you have to go on foot from where you plan on using this to your rural destination. I just want to get an idea of what you are carrying with this bag.
Do you plan on ditching it once you get out of the city? Does that mean you will be carrying another bag in addition to the gun bag? If you need to approach a town or house and you have ditched the bag whats the plan?
DOC
In the very unlikely circumstance that I had to leave home and thought a long arm prudent, I would take a 2-3 day pack and a rifle in a sneaky bag, the SB means I can get through the urban areas without a carrying a bag that screams "I have a weapon inside me". (I have sat outside an urban Starbucks in a non-permissive city with a rifle in a SneakyBag no one even gave me a second look). There are many bags that will conceal a rifle, a lawn chair bag would suffice, it is just that the SB makes carrying, accessing and protecting the rifle much easier.
The Sneaky Bag is just for carrying the rifle and the Mini SB with the magazines, a basic back pack (I have a Kifaru Express) would have the necessities to survive for a few days without access to modern conveniences, the basic load you would have for a couple days of backpack camping in your area. Once I reached my destination I can do whatever I please with the Sneaky Bag I would probably roll it up and bungie it to the outside of my back pack for use on the return trip.
This is not rocket science, I think that there are a lot of people that have never carried a pack and a rifle for any distance and just don't know the relative (dis)comfort that the right/wrong gear can provide. Yes carrying a rifle is more difficult than not, but it is also great to have if you get in a fight.
A Sneaky Bag is for carrying a rifle and the immediate support gear for it in a low profile way, that is all, and it does that task very well.
Once at my destination, light a camp fire break out the s'mores and the uclayaly.
Cameron
Doc it is all degrees of comfort. If you are comfortable with just a pistol... cool. If you are comfortable with a rifle broken down and stored in a pack that's great. The discernment part comes in when you consider your circumstances. For me in a disaster a rifle broken down in a back pack is a lot of useless weight to haul if my primary concern is self defense. While a rifle slung openly across your chest may also be a detriment to your goal to stay out of trouble, or to pass unnoticed. The covert rifle bag allows the compromise of providing a relatively more easily accessible firearm that does not necessarily scream the same thing as having a rifle slung across your chest and a mookie war rig on.
I really think part of intelligent discernment is being objective and being able to step back and assess what will function best while understanding that it may not be what you have invested money in.
Good to see that you are starting to think about it a little, I'm glad you can see that an objective assessment is the key. Use what works and what meets the goals you have. The covert rifle Sneaky Bag is just a bag for carrying a rifle under the RADAR, if that makes getting to your destination and meeting your goals easier use it.
Cameron
How do you deploy the gun from that bag? Pull it out.
If someone started shooting at you while you are walking down the street what is your immediate action plan? Rephrase: What is your immediate action plan when you would deploy this gun from the bag?While the Sneaky Bag was actually designed so that the rifle could actually be fired from inside the bag, there are a million scenarios were removing a rifle from the bag would be advisable. Use your imagination here. Obviously, if I am surprised by taking fire on the street (while trying to navigate a suburban Colorado town:eek:) and my rifle is in any bag I would return fire with a handgun if I had one while, with all rapidity, moving towards cover, then from cover yank the carbine out. Like I said before it isn't rocket science, don't over think it.
I would also be interested in any pics of you wearing the Express and the sneaky bag if you have any. Just want to see how the setup looks.DOCI am pretty sure Jeff Carpenter (USMC03) has some pics of himself with a Sneaky rifle bag on. Try looking here Covert Rifle Bag (with pics) (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25217&highlight=sneaky) remember this is the mid length sneaky bag and the two I showed above at the small bags for a folding stock or an SBR. You can looks here: Kifaru Express (https://www.kifaru.net/mollexpress.html#) for pics of an Express.
It looks like you will have to get one ordered and try it out for yourself.
Cameron
The decision to rifle or sans rifle would depend largely on where you're bugging out to, and what supplies you have when you get there. If you're bugging out of a metropolitan area, the best method would probably be to carry only a pistol for defense so that you can move fast and light and get the heck out. Have defensive longarms at the retreat for when you get there.
If you don't have a retreat and will try to find and/or make one, then it would probably be better to have the rifle on your person.
Realistically, most of us would try to bug out via automobile if possible, for at least most of the way. As long as you have the vehicle, pack the longgun.
Then again maybe I do overthink things, it comes from experience and hardship. An example, I bought a buck strider knife played with it for a day or so and stuck it in my knife bin never to be used again. Why did I retire a knife I only owned for a day?
That's funny, I finger ****ed the Strider/Buck abortion in the store and came to the same conclusion, only difference is I kept my money.:p
I would mention again that it is all a matter of degrees, I have had to haul myself and 200lbs of water, ammo and batteries around in place I would rather not have been in, what worked there wouldn't work if I am trying to collect my wife from a downtown urban American city during a disaster/riot/civil unrest.
The Sneaky Bag is simply a low profile way of carrying a rifle that is more accessible than a rifle broken down in your pack.
For me I have humped rifles, ammo and shit in several countries and on several continents and I kind of like the covert rifle bag concept for a civilian and I really like the Sneaky Bag's execution of it. You might have a problem with $159, or you might not see the value in a covert rifle bag, so be it, if you want to roll through your favourite TEOTWAWKI scenario in jandals (http://www.google.com/search?q=jandals) with a Buck/Strider clipped to your jock strap.... who am I to judge.
Cameron
In an attempt to get back on topic an address some of the questions Josh started this thread to answer.
When do I want to have a long gun instead of my pistol:
When the environment has deteriorated to a point that I have an increased chance of getting into a gun fight.
When the environment has changed to the point that a rifle slung over a shoulder is acceptable daily behavior AND I am in an environment that a rifle would be advantageous.
If I were to be carrying a significant load out in my vehicle and the vehicle broke down in a NON-SHTF situation I would take a few minutes to secure/disable any gear and then conceal it as best as possible. This may even include hiding gear in nearby bush as a stopped vehicle is a target of opportunity and most thieves will most likely not look 50' off the road for freshly disturbed earth.
If the same happened during the build up to SHTF (i.e. hurricane, snow storm, etc break down mid evac) I would do my best to conceal my long gun until in an area that I would not be interacting with people OR the area was permitting of such behavior. Any sensitive items I dont feel that I can carry and make it to my destination will likely be cached out of the vehicle if possible and the vehicle will be disabled in a manner allowing me to recover it later when I can return with the ability to fix the initial problem.
What do I want a rifle for?
Defense first, food second. For a few pounds I can add a new bolt, magazine, and a brick of .22 for food but my primary plan is to use it to defend me and mine.
What is bad about a rifle?
They are heavy, require maintenance, and are a general pain in the ass to keep with you every hour of every day. Until you have spent month after month carrying a rifle every day you have no idea how much of a pain it is. The capability come with a price which was pointed out by Josh in some earlier posts.
DOC
You took the words out of my mouth considering that this is what I was trying to say.
Cameron:
What about this bag:
http://www.eberlestock.com/G4%20Operator.htm
You seem obsessed with the idea of two bags. One for the rifle, one for your gear. Why not have both inclosed in one area for the purpose of leaving an urban environment? I have traveled almost every state in the U.S., I have been to Europe, and South America. A simple medium size back packing pack such as this does not scream anything to the average person. In fact they are pretty common sights. I see college kids carrying them to class on a daily basis (not this particular pack, but overnight hiking bags).
With an 16" M4 I have access, the ability to include everything in one location, and the ability to throw a wig on and look like a hippie...;) Seriously though, why split up your gear into two different locations? I have spent enough time on advanced trails, and in urban environments that I know that having my hands free while moving is critical. Two packs seems insane to me.
I've been following this thread and been trying to formulate some thoughts on this...I've got several branches to hang myself with here, but let me try to organize them all in a semi-coherent manner.
Let me start out with some background, to understand where I'm coming from, as individual perspectives weigh very heavily on one's approach to this. I'm in the OKC metro area. At home, I'm more in the suburbs. I live in a newly build neighborhood of starter type homes but there is still a horse farm in the corner of my mile section (smack dab between me and the mall, oddly enough). From my house, it's only a few miles further out to the "country" with few homes and farmland. Terrain is mostly flat, mix of woods and fields, with plenty of small creeks. My wife stays home with our 2 daughters (3 months, and 3 years).
If I'm at work, I won't have a rifle so that's not really relevant to this discussion. So that leaves bugging out from my house, either on foot, or in a vehicle then abandoning it.
If things have degenerated to the point that justifies bugging out on foot with a woman, a toddler, and an infant, you can bet I'm going to have a rifle, and probably have it out and ready. Others have made the point of planning for a certain appearance -- low profile, blend in, don't look vulnerable or valuable. With my crew I don't think I have that luxury. We would make a pretty easy target. Especially since we would likely be moving into a more rural, isolated area where there aren't witnesses or any LE presence. I think it might be worthwhile to look like a pretty hard target and just keep moving. Rural folks will be be less alarmed by weapons in general if you're encountering farm houses or locals. Plus not being stuck concealing the rifle makes it take up less space that needs to be carrying other supplies. The ranges you can see, be seen, and potentially engaged also make the rifle a necessity. The last thing I'd want is to take fire from someone too far to effectively engage with my pistol.
As far as fighting rifle vs. hunting rifle, an M4 is less than ideal for small game in my opinion. If you could could carry a suppressed .22 pistol like a Ruger MKIII with a Tacsol Paclite barrel and a YHM mite suppressor you'd be ahead of the game.
All in all....bugging out with the kiddos is pretty much the absolute last ditch worst case scenario. Managing the rifle at that point becomes the least of my worries.
All in all....bugging out with the kiddos is pretty much the absolute last ditch worst case scenario. Managing the rifle at that point becomes the least of my worries.
My sentiments exactly.
Living in Canada, my options are somewhat limited out of the gate. We don't have the option of driving around with M4's whereever we want. They are "restricted" to ranges only (Not that it will matter much in most serious SHTF scenarios you could imagine.)
I have certain set circumstances now where when I leave the house with the family, I will have a rifle or shotgun of some kind. For example, anytime we are going somewhere off the highway, I will have a long gun. On road trips (highway), I will take a long gun as well. All of my vehicles have a GHB in them (Get home bag). The rifle supports getting home (if needed), whether we are going on foot or by vehicle. I am all for low pro, but have no problem with portraying the hard target when appropriate. I've seen enough of the "if it looks like they can take you they will shit" in 9 plus years of LE to know that portraying a hard target (at the right time) can make all the difference between being attacked or averting it.
I set up my gear, plan and prepare with the idea of either getting home and or getting home and bugging in. Grabbing a rifle of any kind, a backpack full of stuff for 4 people for 24 hours is the last thing I will ever do. I can see that getting old real fast...dragging the wife, kids and dog through the hills in the pissing westcoast rain for days to "escape" the madness. Yeah no, short of a credible bio threat or something similar, we are staying home or headed home ASAP.
Once bugged in, you can bet there will be long guns at hand to defend the home. Even an M4. ;)
You seem obsessed with the idea of two bags.
Two packs seems insane to me.
I suppose all the snowboarders I see in the mountains with a small backpack and a snowboard bag are just plain nuts too...
Where did you get that I am obsessed with two bags? You are starting to make me wonder if people actually read anyone's posts but their own. I mentioned in one very unlikely circumstance that if I had to get through an urban environment I could take a small backpack with essentials, and a rifle in a discreet bag that keeps it somewhat accessible should it be needed...
In the very unlikely circumstance that I had to leave home and thought a long arm prudent, I would take a 2-3 day pack and a rifle in a sneaky bag, the SB means I can get through the urban areas without a carrying a bag that screams "I have a weapon inside me".
I suppose you could have confused repetition with obsession, but then you may have missed the point completely, since "repetition is the mother of all learning" [sic] I will try again:
The Sneaky Rifle bag allows you to carry a carbine or even full sized battle rifle in a low profile even covert way
I would prefer to take a small, light semi auto rifle in my vehicle in a low profile bag should I have to hoof it.
The Sneaky/Covert rifle bag is exactly for the urban non-permissive environment, not for the bush. There would be no need to have a rifle hidden when hiking in a rural area, I frequently walk the woods with a slung rifle or in a gun bearer on a pack.
The covert rifle Sneaky Bag is just a bag for carrying a rifle under the RADAR, if that makes getting to your destination and meeting your goals easier use it.
The Sneaky Bag is simply a low profile way of carrying a rifle that is more accessible than a rifle broken down in your pack.Maybe I said it the wrong way? Perhaps if you see it from someone else...
The “Covert Rifle Bag” is a viable option if you need a low profile means of transporting a long gun.
If you still missed it... I am not sure I can help you.
Cameron
You guys are great. There is some really good thought processes going on here.
My goals for this were to get people to really look at their total loadout. The rifle is probably the most cumbersome and heavy, but provides some significant advantages in certain situations. As long as everyone is taking that into consideration I think good things will happen.
I like that people are thinking in scalable terms. It's not all or nothing, and as long as people are smart about how they layer gear as needs change, then I think it's a win win situation.
If we determine that a long gun is coming along some good choices for carrying it probably need to be discussed. The sneaky bag looks like a decent choice. I think it's a little too specific. A couple other options might be breaking down the rifle or fitting a SBR or folding rifle in a normal backpack. I also wish some of the Eberlestock bags came in a more nondescript look. Without the bottom pulled out you can still fit an SBR in some of them. I like having a dedicated sleeve that the rifle sits in but still has plenty of room for other necessities. I also think a cover garment has some application (as per our other conversation).
Keep it coming. This is a great discussion. I'm going to expand upon some of the carry options plus I'd like to talk about caches, and whether or not that might be a viable solution.
If you still missed it... I am not sure I can help you.
Cameron
I didn't miss your point I got it very clearly. I am just pointing out that there are options that include one bag for both, that is all.
You have peaked my interest in the bag you are touting, but only for the purpose of carrying it to the range. I don't think that a snow boarder with his board bag, and back pack is a viable comparison as they are engaging in a leisure activity.
I am simply stating that I do not see the point in two bags when you can have one that functions as both a bug out bag, and a carrying case for a rifle. I apologize if the word "obsessed" was a little heavy handed.
I also wish some of the Eberlestock bags came in a more nondescript look. Without the bottom pulled out you can still fit an SBR in some of them.
The thing I like about the G4 (the one I linked too) is that it can fit an M4 without the bottom of the scabbard deployed, and will remain somewhat nondescript. Honestly it is one of those pieces of kit that is descriptive to a very select group of the population, but is not to the majority. In the area I live no one will double look it.
I will let you know my total thoughts once mine arrives here soon (think it may be my birthday gift from the fiance, I will let you know).
edited to say:
I think it is important for all of us (as has been discussed in multiple other threads in this section) to remember that each person's situation is different regarding environment, family, ext. If you read the description of my situation I have the intention of remaining nondescript within what is a highly volatile sub/urban environment while I relocate to a more remote less populated natural environment. My fiance and I live simple lives, what we consider valuable others will not. There is no flat screen TV in our house, only books and this computer. A few small knick knacks that are meaningless to others. The most valuable things we own are our out door gear, which is well, packed. The reason I lean towards the single pack, with Doc's descriptions of bugging out as an example, is that I want my gear to be moveable and in one place. If for example I suffer a mechanical failure of the vehicle, or I get grid locked, or I can't use the vehicle at all, I have one pack that I can either grab from the house, or the truck and move out with no questions asked. My goal is to evacuate as quickly as possible, as (like I have said before) I live in an area where the people are so nervous and skitish that I don't want to stick around to see how they react.
ColdDeadHands
09-01-09, 07:08
I like the Idea of the Covert Rifle Sneaky Bag.
For me, I'f I'm out and about...I'm most likely in a Town about 15 miles from where I live. I can't imagine not being able to get home with my vehicle, even if it means that I have to follow the railroad tracks driving besides them. Keep your vehicle fueled up at all times and stay off the main roads in a public panic / disaster. It also helps if your vehicle is somewhat off-road capable. It doesn't have to be a jeep...any vehicle with a bit of ground clearance and all-wheel drive will get you most places.
Good points about the vehicle. I always see these threads and I want to branch off into others like "considerations for your family" and "what to keep in the vehicle". I'm sure if I read through all the threads the information has been covered. Maybe it's time for some necro posts. :)
Outlander Systems
09-01-09, 18:33
...stay off the main roads, move at night, set up camp and travel in difficult/defendable terrain
One of the best nuggets of advice I've seen for a long time.
Staying off of roadways is wise.
I'll add this for what it's worth:
I made it through Hugo. Plenty of people went about armed with longarms in plain view, including what would be considered (especially then) "evil" rifles. Nary a sideways glance. Of course, this was in a fairly rural area on the shore of Lake Marion.
Carrying method for a long arm (or even arming oneself with a rifle/shotgun) has a great deal to do with locale and severity of the event.
Lot's of good info. I am in LE, so maybe I just have some different views.
Maybe because of the type of people I deal with, I think it would actually be safer to carry openly armed. I look at it the opposite of some of you. I think not being visibly armed makes you more of a target.
Think about if from a group of shitbags point of view who is hungry etc.... You see a man and a woman traveling. Each has a backpack, but neither "appears" to be armed. You also see a man and a woman traveling and you see the man has a rifle in his hands. Which one would you approach and try to steal their stuff? There will be so many people traveling unarmed or appear to be unarmed that it won't pay to mess with the openly armed people. That's how I see it anyways.
If people are leaving their homes, bad stuff is happening. I think for all of us, the goal would be to stay home or go to our safe location near our home. If things are bad enough you are leaving your home for the "unknown", then I think you will be fine carrying a rifle for everyone to see (Assuming you can't drive and keep your rifle out of view).Once things have gotten to that point, I don't see law enforcement messing with you in most circumstances. I think law enforcement will be overwhelmed by then and will be capable of dealing with emergencies only (if that).
Things would have to be really, really, bad for me to leave since I would have an obligation to stick around for my work. I can only see myself leaving if we were forced to relocate for some type of disaster. Don't know where I would go since my closest family is a two days drive. I would plan on one backpack (Eberlestock). I would hope I could have one in the pack and one in my hands, but I have no doubt that would get heavy quick.
DeputyMend
09-02-09, 22:16
I agree, that is a ****load of crap. and with no other supplies other than ammo and a gun. I have one of those mini Sneaky shoulder bags I find it to start digging into the should with nothing much more than 2-3 AR mags after a couple of hours.
Food for thought in the gun department
Kel-Tec SU16C (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm) (supposedly can be fired folded)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16c_pic01.jpg
Kel-Tech SU16CA (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16ca.htm)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16ca_pic01.jpg
Kel-Tech SU16D12 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16d.htm) (12" barrel, if you don't mind going NFA)
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/sub16d_pic01.jpg
Has anybody ran one of these hard? Any firsthand experience? I know that anything less than a decked out Noveske with a S&B Short Dot is scoffed at around here ;) but this might be a cheap and viable long gun solution. I know that I would rather lose one of these topped with an aimpoint than a $2000 SBR with all the toppings.
Has anybody ran one of these hard? Any firsthand experience? I know that anything less than a decked out Noveske with a S&B Short Dot is scoffed at around here ;) but this might be a cheap and viable long gun solution. I know that I would rather lose one of these topped with an aimpoint than a $2000 SBR with all the toppings.
one of my buds kaboomed one of those...
not reccomended..
The whole point behind a long gun is that, if they see you... then it's too late...
Hide it in the truck, or whatever... until it's go time... but don't compremise on some bullshit gun because "it folds"..
Odds are, if you have any long gun, you will be noticed.. and being noticed is not always a bad thing...
Think about if from a group of shitbags point of view who is hungry etc.... You see a man and a woman traveling. Each has a backpack, but neither "appears" to be armed. You also see a man and a woman traveling and you see the man has a rifle in his hands. Which one would you approach and try to steal their stuff? There will be so many people traveling unarmed or appear to be unarmed that it won't pay to mess with the openly armed people. That's how I see it anyways.
If people are leaving their homes, bad stuff is happening. I think for all of us, the goal would be to stay home or go to our safe location near our home. If things are bad enough you are leaving your home for the "unknown", then I think you will be fine carrying a rifle for everyone to see (Assuming you can't drive and keep your rifle out of view).Once things have gotten to that point, I don't see law enforcement messing with you in most circumstances. I think law enforcement will be overwhelmed by then and will be capable of dealing with emergencies only (if that).
I am not trying to doubt you, or be dis-respectful but my first question for you would be what is your location in the U.S.? Are you a rural LE, or an Urban LE? If you read my above posts I live in a sub-urban (not a suburban) environment. It borders on rural, and is basically a tourist/college town. I work as a bouncer at one of the many bars in town, and I deal with the police on a regular basis. I also watch their tactics as I walk home at night. There are some GREAT officers on my force, but please understand that my town devolves into chaos EVERY Thu, Fri, Sat night between the hours of 3 - 5 am. I have watched the cops become so frustrated and overwhelmed with the chaos that they fall back to their tasers and pepper spray in order to just make it through the night. There is also a history in my town. In 2004 some wingnut went off his meds, took a loaded AK, and walked down Main St. He shot about 150 rounds into buildings before he ran out of ammo. The police got a lot of shit for allowing it to go on that long, and are now more aggressive. Each officer carries a patrol rifle (AR-15) in the trunk, and they are for lack of a better phrase high strung, and sensitive to rifles.
Despite the fact that I know many of these guys, and deal with them often, I honestly believe that in a situation like you describe that I would be more at risk of my life by coming into contact with a police officer in my town while open carrying my M4, then I would be by some "thug". In NYC the cops call it "suicide by cop", when someone wants to die, and they flash a weapon or look alike at the officer.
Once I get out of the College induced party apocalypse that is my shty little town, then yes I agree with you, open carrying would be fine. :)
I don't see the Kel Tecs as a "blast all day" or "run it hard" kind of solution. I see it more like a car jack, hidden away until/if you need it.
If I went that route I'd fire a few rounds to get it zeroed and check for basic function, and then pack it away.
I have never shot the .223 Kel Tech, but I have seen three of the 9mm versions, all three were unreliable.
I'd rather have a folding stocked 10-22, at least I know it would be reliable.
My buddy has one of the SU16C models, and it's a neat little carbine. Unfortunately it choked on the first range session -- case stuck in the chamber that wouldn't come out...which reminds me, I need to ask him if he's still got it, because I doubt he ever got it sorted out (and this was several years ago!)
Some issues like that would need to be sorted out or verified as non-issues before committing to one.
LOK, my first guess (and part of what I'd do if I ever picked one up) is that the chamber likely could stand a reaming with one of Ned's tools.
LOK, my first guess (and part of what I'd do if I ever picked one up) is that the chamber likely could stand a reaming with one of Ned's tools.
Knowing what I know now, that's my thought also. At the time I had no clue. What's sad is that I bet that casing is still stuck in there to this day :eek:
PA PATRIOT
09-03-09, 21:09
I have never shot the .223 Kel Tech, but I have seen three of the 9mm versions, all three were unreliable.
I'd rather have a folding stocked 10-22, at least I know it would be reliable.
I have a 9mm version that uses Glock Magazines, and while I admit she has been returned to Kel-Tec once for repairs 2300rds later she is still going strong. Kel-Tec told me that they installed a so called "LE Spring Kit" and a few other Mods which worked out all of her bugs. I do use this folding carbine with a few 33rd magazines for road trips and vacations and while its not perfect the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 is sure compact & light weight, has decent fire power and accurate to make head shots out to 50yds.
The "LE" spring kit story may be a Kel-Tec bull job but its listed on the repair list returned with the gun.
Mr.Goodtimes
09-04-09, 09:46
Depending on much shit has hit the fan and the size of the fan, thats going to dictate how and what i carry.
If things are so bad that i cant travel by vehicle for fear of getting IED'd or ambushed, ill be roaming the streets with my M4, Beretta (in a drop leg holster), Chest rig (8 rifle mags, 4 pistol) three day pack etc.. full ass kickin battle load out. I think that if things are that ugly, I wanna be ready for damn near anything. Also, if things get so bad that I cant drive around, im not going to just be going for a stroll down to the local super wallmart. at this point, open carry, weather legal or not in your area, probably isnt going to matter much.
Say we get a hurricane Katrina, things are kinda shady but, there still some social order remaining.. In that case, id carry the same load as above, only concealed in something like a sneaky bag with my beretta in my waist band. Or most likely, just leave it all in the truck and only carry the beretta. if i need it i wont be far from the truck, and i can use my handgun to fight my way back to my long gun. I think that this also applies in the case of a really crummy economy as well.
The only time i would be carrying open, all tacticooled out would be if there is some serious shit hitting the fan, roaming gangs, looters etc... i guess cases were this would apply would be post government collapse, post SEVERE natural disaster, or maybe a combination depression/gov instability.
theJanitor
09-06-09, 03:45
Ok, I got a question regarding an SBR
I live in a non NFA state, so no SBR's, supressors, etc. And i live in a 100% urban area. Carrying and hiding a SBR would be extremely advantageous in a BAD situation.
but could i buy a short upper? and not assemble it onto any lower? just stash it away in the SHTF box? Only assemble it if i had to move out on foot? I would have to assume that for me to leave my apartment building, everything, including general lawfulness, has disappeared. following NFA rules would be the last thing on my mind. Heck, in my no CCW state, putting a pistol in my IWB holster and moving out is breaking the rules, would the SBR be worse?
TJ, think AR pistol. You could legally own that.
Summing up, or breaking down, the considerations....
1) What is your reason for having the rifle? This is determined by location as much as anything else, but is also related to whether you think there is a greater threat of starvation or violent attack, which are in turn also related to availability of opportunities for hunting vs. likelihood of human threats.
2) Do you carry it concealed or open? This is determined in part by #1 above, but also by whether you think it better to present a "hard target", or a lion in sheep's clothing. These are, in turn, determined by whether you think having a valuable item like a firearm in plain sight would make you a more attractive target, hard or not.
3) How, and how well, do you support it? We've all seen the posts here where people refer to their "SHTF load out" of 8 magazines strapped to their chest and another 1k rounds loaded up for some other means of toting. Those may be fine for some situations, but here we're talking about being on foot, and the limitations that come with that. Consideration should be given to #2 in conjunction with this in terms of appearing to be a threat to others with an M4 strapped to your chest plus 8 magazines.
4) Are you traveling "alone" or as part of a group? "Alone" could mean just you, or just you and your immediate family, but being part of a group like a church group or like-minded neighbors and your role within that group (sheepdog? leader? sheep?) may impact your decisions related to 2 and 3.
I've been interested in the Remington LE 7615 (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm) for awhile. Specifically the model RAMAC 6485, with the rifle sights and standard rifle style stock, and 13" LOP.
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615c.jpg
If you could replace the synthetic furniture with the wood furniture of the commercial 7600 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_7600.asp) it should lower the threat profile, and if you could find a way to make the wood stock fold it would also make it even more packable.
http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/smsil_7600.jpg
IIRC the top of the receiver is drilled and tapped for a rail like the one on the 870, meaning you could mount all manner of optics on a throwlever depending on the immediate need. Aimpint T-1 for defense and short-range hunting, low power variable magnified optic for longer range observing or hunting, and totally optics free to present as non-threatening of a profile as possible.
My guess is that they probably come with a 1:9 and a .223 chamber, but the chamber can be fixed and there are effective rounds out there for the 1:9. It's heavy for what it is, being a pump-action .223, but that may be offset by the lower threat profile. Sling up one of these with a wood stock and add in one of those sneaky bags and you look much more like a hunter with an 870 than you do a soldier or militant with an M4. If you could get one in 6.8....
:cool:
I've been interested in the Remington LE 7615 (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm) for awhile. Specifically the model RAMAC 6485, with the rifle sights and standard rifle style stock, and 13" LOP.
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615c.jpg
If you could replace the synthetic furniture with the wood furniture of the commercial 7600 (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_7600.asp) it should lower the threat profile, and if you could find a way to make the wood stock fold it would also make it even more packable.
http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/smsil_7600.jpg
IIRC the top of the receiver is drilled and tapped for a rail like the one on the 870, meaning you could mount all manner of optics on a throwlever depending on the immediate need. Aimpint T-1 for defense and short-range hunting, low power variable magnified optic for longer range observing or hunting, and totally optics free to present as non-threatening of a profile as possible.
My guess is that they probably come with a 1:9 and a .223 chamber, but the chamber can be fixed and there are effective rounds out there for the 1:9. It's heavy for what it is, being a pump-action .223, but that may be offset by the lower threat profile. Sling up one of these with a wood stock and add in one of those sneaky bags and you look much more like a hunter with an 870 than you do a soldier or militant with an M4. If you could get one in 6.8....
:cool:
The Rem 7615 is an interesting rifle. I considered one several times. I was turned off when one of the local gunsmiths said he had returned several on warranty as they literally ate the tops of mags when the slide was cycled. I don't know if that was ever a widespread problem and/or it was addressed. Something to look into though beforehand.
I have been thinking about this for a few days, going back and forth as to what I want to use as a vehicle long arm. What I would keep in the vehicle at all times to see us through to get home if bad things start up while we are away. Leaving home is easy, I will grab an AR variant of some kind. But what to leave in the vehicle year round. Again, my laws here are different, so and M4 can't be left in the car. Pump shotguns for me are a good choice, the only draw back is ammo is heavy and takes up a shit load of room.
I am also thinking the Ruger 10/22 is a great longarm to have stashed in a vehicle. It isn't at all suitable for bears in the back-country, but it would still work as an effective lite weight and easily concealable long arm to get us home. 3 or 4 30 round sticks, an extra brick of 500 rounds stored in the vehicle would suffice.
I am also a fan of carrying a Winchester 94 in 30-30 as a "truck gun." Very non-black gun. So much less "threatening" in appearance. Plenty of punch, easy to use. Again also very low profile. While I haven't used one myself, a Marlin .30-30 would be a decent choice as well. There appears to be more aftermarket mount options available for the Marlin than there is for the Winchester.
Ah, what to do!:D
a good cross over firearm i picked up several years ago. A short barreled double barrel 12 gauage, rifle sights, with barrel inserts. I can switch from 12 gauge to 45-70, or configure it to shoot one of each. range isn't the best with the 45-70, but for a multipurpose firearm, it's good. plus it breaks down into very conceabable pieces, or worst case situation, i can sling it beneath a long jacket.
theJanitor
09-06-09, 12:43
TJ, think AR pistol. You could legally own that.
yeah, that's a no-go here too. anything with a magazine in front of the grip is not allowed.
yeah, that's a no-go here too. anything with a magazine in front of the grip is not allowed.
Jesus. Where the hell do you live, and can you leave? :confused:
theJanitor
09-06-09, 13:04
i live in "paradise". so the only reason that i should be moving out on foot, is to get to my elderly grandmothers house, about 6-7 miles away.
PA PATRIOT
09-06-09, 18:32
A L/E Buddie ran the below rifle through a AR course recently and he has the rifle up for sale already. The action is very stiff and prone to binding and if you have extra stiff springs in your AR magazines closing the bolt is difficult. After just a few magazines his arms were hurting due to the stiff action and accuracy in his words "SUCKED". If I remember correctly didn't DocGKR have some unkind words for this rifle also? I will ask to borrow this rifle for a test shoot later this week, I'll post a report when done.
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615.jpg
PA PATRIOT
09-06-09, 18:38
For a compact rifle how about a Stainless Steel Ruger Mini-14 with a folding Butler Creek stock? Very compact, weather resistant and reliable with Ruger magazines and I have no problems keeping all shots C/O/M at 150yds which is more then enough for urban use.
Outlander Systems
09-06-09, 19:06
This thread leads me to yet another spinoff-thread.
Disaster Blaster: What do You Want as a Primary? (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=448069#post448069)
The Remington pump guns are light duty in my experience. The .223 patrol rifles they market such according to several folks I trust.
The Marlin 30-30s are solid guns and have that hunting gun look that doesn't scare people.
The Minis are OK, but I think any rifle with a folding stock will be seen as "bad", and the Mini ain't cheap anymore.
I'd avoid the AR pistols, seriously.
I'd avoid the AR pistols, seriously.
I would too, but if it allows someone to own a short barreled upper that could be moved over if the law changed or there was no law...
For a compact rifle how about a Stainless Steel Ruger Mini-14 with a folding Butler Creek stock? Very compact, weather resistant and reliable with Ruger magazines and I have no problems keeping all shots C/O/M at 150yds which is more then enough for urban use.
A lot of the people in my area that I know have gone this route for either their permanent truck gun, or in one case his only .223 chambered rifle.
edited to add:
I own a Marlin 30.30 and I love the gun. This is a wonderful rifle and it will be coming with me in my fiances hands/bag. Open carrying this rifle in my area would cause a few glances, but nothing like the AR.
PA PATRIOT
09-07-09, 13:30
A lot of the people in my area that I know have gone this route for either their permanent truck gun, or in one case his only .223 chambered rifle.
edited to add:
I own a Marlin 30.30 and I love the gun. This is a wonderful rifle and it will be coming with me in my fiances hands/bag. Open carrying this rifle in my area would cause a few glances, but nothing like the AR.
We own three Ruger Mini-14 rifles which are all set up the same way, all have Butler Creek folding stocks, small red dot optic and a good flash suppressor. They are very light weight when compared to a deck out AR and are extremely reliable with factory Ruger magazines. They seem to really like 62gr bullets accuracy wise shooting them better then the 55gr version which is strange as I heard the reverse is true with most Rugers. I have had no problems using soft points which expand nicely and penetrate better then 14" in deer and coyotes. The real plus is their cost which is under $500.00 new and much better then that on the used market posting in the $300.00's
We own three Ruger Mini-14 rifles which are all set up the same way, all have Butler Creek folding stocks, small red dot optic and a good flash suppressor. They are very light weight when compared to a deck out AR and are extremely reliable with factory Ruger magazines. They seem to really like 62gr bullets accuracy wise shooting them better then the 55gr version which is strange as I heard the reverse is true with most Rugers. I have had no problems using soft points which expand nicely and penetrate better then 14" in deer and coyotes. The real plus is their cost which is under $500.00 new and much better then that on the used market posting in the $300.00's
I've had no issues with any of the Mini-14's I've owned. They are pretty lite weight and with the folders make them easier to store/transport discreetly. Factory steel ruger mags rock. I have had no issues with them at all. The aftermarket mags are hit and miss. I had three Mini-14's and I am down to one...it was on the chopping block to fund other projects...but for the reasons stated above, I may just rethink its future and make it a dedicated vehicle long gun....hmmm.
theJanitor
09-08-09, 18:21
For this discussion we’re going to talk about moving on foot. If we have a vehicle then the point is almost moot. Believe me, if I’m alamo’ing up or moving in a vehicle then the gear I chose and the time and distance I can cover are a different discussion.
i don't know if this question should be here, or in the "Bug out vehicle tactics" thread. (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37258) but being in an urban area where vehicular traffic is terrible on a regular day, moving out on foot has been on my mind for awhile. so what about one of these for the day when moving out on "foot" is necessary:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Puch_Maxi_.JPG
they're somewhat cheap, almost disposable, can ride on the sidewalks and between cars. they get great mileage, are completely mechanical, with no electronics for an EMP (or whatever) to ruin. with one of these, i would almost certainly pack a long gun.
Mr.Goodtimes
09-08-09, 18:25
i don't know if this question should be here, or in the "Bug out vehicle tactics" thread. (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37258) but being in an urban area where vehicular traffic is terrible on a regular day, moving out on foot has been on my mind for awhile. so what about one of these for the day when moving out on "foot" is necessary:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Puch_Maxi_.JPG
they're somewhat cheap, almost disposable, can ride on the sidewalks and between cars. they get great mileage, are completely mechanical, with no electronics for an EMP (or whatever) to ruin. with one of these, i would almost certainly pack a long gun.
i wouldnt ride that but, i would take a dirtbike. a honda 450 should do the trick.
theJanitor
09-08-09, 18:50
in a CITY setting, where i might have to ditch the two wheeled ride, i'll stay away from the expensive dirtbike. throw in the fact that these do not need great fuel and get good mileage, the dirtbike might play second fiddle to one of these. also i could probably need only my multitool to fix 90% of it's mechanical issues
oh, and hoping the 5'1" wife can start a 450/250/125 is pure fantasy
Mr.Goodtimes
09-08-09, 18:53
in a CITY setting, where i might have to ditch the two wheeled ride, i'll stay away from the expensive dirtbike. throw in the fact that these do not need great fuel and get good mileage, the dirtbike might play second fiddle to one of these. also i could probably need only my multitool to fix 90% of it's mechanical issues
oh, and hoping the 5'1" wife can start a 450/250/125 is pure fantasy
if i was going to plan on ditching the ride then yea, that would be a great idea, especially if your just stayin around city/pavement. a 6k dollar dirtbike is not something i would want to just throw away.
theJanitor
09-08-09, 18:57
yup, the only reason , FOR ME, that i wouldn't be in a vehicle, is if the roadways are jammed; or the dreaded EMP rendered my modern transportation, and the city's transportation infrastructure inoperable.
in a CITY setting, where i might have to ditch the two wheeled ride, i'll stay away from the expensive dirtbike. throw in the fact that these do not need great fuel and get good mileage, the dirtbike might play second fiddle to one of these. also i could probably need only my multitool to fix 90% of it's mechanical issues
oh, and hoping the 5'1" wife can start a 450/250/125 is pure fantasy
Well all I can say to that is I spent so much time dodging those things in Buenos Aires whether it was the street, sidewalk, or shoulder, is that a skilled rider with one of these in an Urban setting not "can" but "does" dominate when it comes to mobility.
Seeing that photo brought back memories.
I'm all about anything that helps increase time and distance. With 2 wheeled transportation you still have to consider many of the same things you would on foot.
That being said, please don't let this thread derail into "which 2 wheeled vehicle for bugging out". Plenty of room in this forum for a new thread.
Sorry to keep harping on it but I hate seeing a thread (on any forum) with a title that interests me, that has plenty pg posts and traffic, and come to find out it's full of information that isn't really relevant to the original topic. I think people not involved in the discussion or people in the future would appreciate information bening concise and pertinent.
I have been mulling this over some. I think that on foot, the best way for me to carry the gear I need to support myself and 3 others for a short stint on foot and still have have access to a longarm, is to carry all that I need in my Eblerstock Gunslinger. It keeps the loadout in one bag opposed to carrying both a backpack and a low profile gun bag combo. The long gun can stay out of sight when low profile is the way to go, but is still quite easy to get at. I find drawing a full length scoped hunting rifle quite easy while the back is still on my back.
I am going away on a backpack hunting trip for a week here shortly. I am going to hump the Ebelerstock on this trip and give this concept some serious evaluation.
ColdDeadHands
09-09-09, 06:37
You made some good points Andrew.
I feel pretty much the same way about everything you said, except the sneaky bag. I don't think that anybody would give me a second look toting it around.
If I was on my way home and have to abandon my vehicle, I wouldn't have to worry about concealing my rifle because I hardly ever have one in my vehicle. A Handgun ( with plenty of magazines) makes much more sense to me. It's easy to conceal and I don't have to worry about cops giving me funny looks. What makes you guys think cops will let you go on w/o stopping you and probably searching you to see what else you might have on your person? Yes I live in Texas but cops can be real assholes around here, especially in the Metro area. I tend to avoid them at all times, even tho I've done nothing wrong.
Now, if I'm bugging-in as the world as I know it goes to hell and I need to scrounge my neighborhood for goods, yes I will have a Rifle and carry it openly.
I have been mulling this over some. I think that on foot, the best way for me to carry the gear I need to support myself and 3 others for a short stint on foot and still have have access to a longarm, is to carry all that I need in my Eblerstock Gunslinger. It keeps the loadout in one bag opposed to carrying both a backpack and a low profile gun bag combo. The long gun can stay out of sight when low profile is the way to go, but is still quite easy to get at. I find drawing a full length scoped hunting rifle quite easy while the back is still on my back.
I am going away on a backpack hunting trip for a week here shortly. I am going to hump the Ebelerstock on this trip and give this concept some serious evaluation.
Please let us know how the backpack long gun combination works out for you. I will be doing the same this hunting season with my G4. I can tell the forum now though that it completely conceals my fixed stock M4, and my Marlin 30.30.
Edited to address Andrew and ColdDeadHands points:
Andrew thank you for your perspective. Especially considering that you lived through the most recent example we have in the U.S. where the issues we are discussing actually had major relevance. The point about being reluctant to carry openly for fear of someone following you to your place of rest is something to consider. I can see it being highly relevant in areas like those I have been in in the South where there is a strong concentration of upper middle class right next to the extremely poor.
Also regarding the LE, we never had the guy who has LE experience and commented on this thread come back on with his response to my questions regarding these very issues. Just like every profession, and every group of people there will be good and bad apples in the bunch in regards to LE. The only difference is that the good and bad in this profession both carry the same weapons, and have the same enforcement power. Just because someone is LE doesn't mean they are comfortable enough around firearms to think rationally when confronted with one. It also doesn't mean that that individual will stay loyal to constitution and the laws of the nation, state, county and town in which they are deployed during an emergency. Just like instances of various protests that have happened on the left and right over the last 15 years, the officer in charge may decide to forgo the constitution for the purpose or "restoring order", and let the courts sort the cases out later.
To me the issue of interaction with "sub"urban, and urban officers is the largest draw back to carrying a long rifle in the discussed situations. Weight would be the second draw back. Thugs the third.
PA PATRIOT
09-09-09, 13:32
Hello Gentleman,
I understand from the recent post that some wish to heard what the mindset of a local L/E/O maybe during a SHTF event. While every officer is different and will react based on their personality, training and experience I can relate how I would respond to a armed person during a SHTF encounter. First I have been a Police Officer in a major crime ridden city for 21 years and had 6 active years followed by reserve with the U.S.M.C. I have also taken over 15 advanced firearm training courses at some of the best training locations in the nation so I would say my ability and tactics with a firearm should be above average. That said how would I interact with a armed person during a SHTF event, first and foremost everyone has to understand my safety is my number one concern. No compromises with be made and I will follow my SOP to disarm and identify the armed person. The encounter can go many different ways depending on the compliance level of the armed person.
To be continued, its time to go to work. I will finish this tonight.
Hello Gentleman,
I understand from the recent post that some wish to heard what the mindset of a local L/E/O maybe during a SHTF event. While every officer is different and will react based on their personality, training and experience I can relate how I would respond to a armed person during a SHTF encounter. First I have been a Police Officer in a major crime ridden city for 21 years and had 6 active years followed by reserve with the U.S.M.C. I have also taken over 15 advanced firearm training courses at some of the best training locations in the nation so I would say my ability and tactics with a firearm should be above average. That said how would I interact with a armed person during a SHTF event, first and foremost everyone has to understand my safety is my number one concern. No compromises with be made and I will follow my SOP to disarm and identify the armed person. The encounter can go many different ways depending on the compliance level of the armed person.
To be continued, its time to go to work. I will finish this tonight.
First off all thanks for your service, Philly is a rough place, a good friends father was detective there for 20+ years. Be safe (as I know you will be).
Back to subject though, of course your safety is your priority. But you are stating that you would disarm said individual, right?
ColdDeadHands
09-09-09, 17:42
But you are stating that you would disarm said individual, right?
Ditto! Don't know what your laws are in Philly but in Texas there is no law against carrying a Rifle. I think LE should mind their own business and go disarm the gangbangers instead of law abiding citizens. I mean, it should be fairly easy to differentiate between a gangbanger and the regular Joe...at least in most cases. Now for the wannabe gangbangers...well, if they want to be them then they should be treated like one.
telecustom
09-09-09, 21:16
Ditto! Don't know what your laws are in Philly but in Texas there is no law against carrying a Rifle. I think LE should mind their own business and go disarm the gangbangers instead of law abiding citizens. I mean, it should be fairly easy to differentiate between a gangbanger and the regular Joe...at least in most cases. Now for the wannabe gangbangers...well, if they want to be them then they should be treated like one.
But, but, but.....that's Profiling!!!!!! Someone might complain!!!! (whiny tone intended)
ROCKET20_GINSU
09-09-09, 21:38
Josh,
First off thanks for starting this thread, good points and this has definitely been an interesting discussion thus far. I've been following this thread for a couple of days and thinking of my response and my primary considerations for movement with a long gun are most influenced by these two factors Essential biological survival necessities (Water / food) and Security. Shelter becomes more of a factor as the duration of the movement and the hazard of the environmental elements (extremely cold, wet, hot, etc. increase) but in my geographic location shelter is less of a concern. I've spent my share of nights on the ground with just my clothes to know that it is feasible at least for the short term.
- For me the rifle is most useful as a security enhancing tool, It can certainly be
employed to great effect as a food gathering implement, however it is possible to
gather food without it, and downing game for food is not my primary concern while
bugging out.
*"If a gun doesn't go bang, it doesn't matter how accurate or powerful it is" I don't know who said this originally, but I'm sure we've all said it at some point :D with this concept in mind, If a rifle hindered me excessively in getting to my destination, be it through weight, cumbersomeness or unwanted attention (criminal and LEO), I would leave it or ditch it immediately, Yep I'll say it again I would leave it or ditch it immediately. I absolutely agree with all prior posts that stated that weight is a huge concern during movements.
Security...Even with a long gun the best way to avoid getting shot is to avoid getting shot at. I think in most cases its best not to draw attention from anyone. And as far as a long gun being deterrent and makes you seem a "harder" target, this can be true...but it can also make you a more attractive target as thats an object of immense tactical and survival value that a hord of people with long guns might seek to acquire. With these factors taken into account, for me the rifle serves best not as a deterrent, but a tool to help me break out of or thru any circumstances that hinder my movement.
Ok...but if thats the primary role of the rifle for me could I fill it with something else a little lighter and of possibly multiple uses? I think so...If a mob of people was chasing me I don't think I would take up a defensive position and start blasting away with my rifle unless the pushed me into a corner. I think my first priority would be breaking contact and I would try to do this by moving as fast as possible while utilizing 9mm pistol cover fire (if necessary), smoke grenades, and CS grenades / mace / etc. if I had it.
With this is mind taking, leaving or ditching my rifle would depend most on why I was leaving (which incorporates environmental conditions) and how I was getting where I'm going (rate of travel, distance of travel, terrain to be negotiated, etc.) Also, If I absolutely needed a rifle at my final destination for security reasons I would probably rethink going there in the first place.
Now that I've revealed my bias on why I would most likely not carry a long gun here are a few circumstances where I would.
**For each of these circumstances of long gun carry below at one or more of the criteria for carry must be met, and security concerns must equal or outweigh mobility considerations.
Circumstances where I would carry a long gun in the open
Break down of society, Conventional law and law enforcement non existant
Socially acceptable to carry long gun, no one gives you a second glance (subjective I know)
High likelyhood of violent and unavoidable contact
Traveling extremely slow and / or far (20+ miles / several days to weeks) or extremely fast 2-3 miles (~30 min)
High animal attack threat
Hunting has become an essential sustainment function in the wilderness for food
Primairly traveling slowly in wilderness over extended period of time
High threat of attack from vehicles
Must travel thru high threat, violent, dense population areas quickly
*Method = LMT 14.5" AR 5.56, Aimpoint ML2 RDS, Larue mount w/ extra battery, Magpul rail covers and MIAD (5 extra rounds inside), BUIS, Tango down QD VFG, Troy FF rail, Surefire 300 @ 12 O'clock, 3-4 mags probably (no less than 2 no more than 8 total), VTAC padded sling (an adjustable 2 pt is absolutely the way to go in this situation IMO)
Circumstances where I would carry a long gun in a bag
High-Intermediate likelyhood of violent and unavoidable contact, attacks common
Society has degraded but you would still look out of the ordinary with a long gun in the open
Hunting has become or will become an essential sustainment function for food
Present animal attack threat
Threat of attack from vehicles
Same traveling rates/distances as "rifle in the open carry"
*Method = Same rifle as above, probably sling unattached and in BOB, inside tennis racquet case, duffel bag, etc...anything but a gun case. Padded shoulder strap and carrying handles is a plus. I would make do with a pillow case if necessary (alec baldwin in The getaway style :cool: it wouldn't completely conceal the rifle but at casual glance people hopefully wouldn't see what it was
Circumstances where I would carry a broken down long gun
will have to pass through a high-itermediate threat area along the route of travel (will assemble the rifle prior to entering that area, and will disassemble, bag or ditch the rifle afterwards)
rifle is essential to survival at destination
rifle is very important and required at some point during movement, but carrying it openly or in a bag would be a hinderance to speed or stamina (I would try first to find an alternate route though)
Method = broken down and carried on either side of my BOB using the cinch down straps, the upper and the lower each in pillow cases, clothing, etc. (would water proof if possible)
Ok...now lets talk about my personal scenario not just the general theoretical
In 90-95% of the scenarios that I can envision involving bugging out I would probably Not take a rifle. Natural disasters being the most likely reason for bugging out, this is not cause enough under most circumstances in my opinion to require a long gun. Social fabric though frayed is still intact, there is an increase in crime but the law and law enforcement still exists, so I am not about to create problems with movement (weight and attention) carrying a long gun (open or in a bag). I will travel light and quick, speed and stealth (greyness) will be my greatest security, not my rifle. Instead I would take 2-3 Glocks 9mm's and several magazines. I would be moving with my GF and we would move fastest and most safely without a rifle. Having concealable and high capacity pistols gives us more flexibility and mobility during travel. If we need to enter a building to forage for food or supplies we will do so with our pistols, slow and deliberately, if we encounter any resistance we will leave immediately. Of my bug out guns my primary would be my G19, it has good capacity, carry ability, reliability and shoot ability. I would carry it concealed in either a VMII, OWB in a raven w/ X200b or in a wilderness safepacker holster attached to the kidney pad on my BOB. I have alot of glock mags, not that I would take them all, and a complete extra set of springs, pins and a trigger for the G19 in my BOB. I'll also share magazine compatibility with my GF who will have a G26 + crimson trace (as long as we use G19 or G17 mags). If on the way to safety FEMA, Red Cross, LEO, etc. provide transpo, shelter, resources, we will not stand out or be denied support because we do not overtly appear as a security risk to them (no open firearms).
I live in the suburbs of LV in the north so I would avoid going S, SW or SE as that would take me closer to the population center unless I absolutely had to. Bugging out to the north on foot there is not much within a 1 day trek so we would try to find a water source in as secure, secluded and defendable an area as possible away from the disaster. As long as that location was better than the location I was leaving and was worth the risk of travel.
I know that I can move 12 miles w/ 45 lbs and a rifle in under 3 hours consuming 3 liters of water (avg) in the process, but I'll be spent at the end. With GF in tow we would move fastest and farthest (my guess is 10-15 mile 1 day range) as a team if we ditched the rifle and carried 8 lbs of water and 4 lbs of food instead. In total we would be geared with 1 week survival in mind.
I'm starting to blabber now so I'll stop :D I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts, ideas, and criticisms of my opinions.
Stay safe,
GU
ROCKET20_GINSU
09-09-09, 21:50
Ditto! Don't know what your laws are in Philly but in Texas there is no law against carrying a Rifle. I think LE should mind their own business and go disarm the gangbangers instead of law abiding citizens. I mean, it should be fairly easy to differentiate between a gangbanger and the regular Joe...at least in most cases. Now for the wannabe gangbangers...well, if they want to be them then they should be treated like one.
I feel that this is much more difficult to actually do in real life. In my humble experience the only thing you can really assess with any margin of certainty is how much of a threat a person is to you at the moment. If you bang a door, enter a room with multiple occupants and determine that one person needs restraining...I don't know about you but everyone in my room is getting restrained and searched. We'll sort thru who is good and bad after the situation is secured and we have the time and ability to figure out whats really going on in safety.
As far as threats go, I would feel much more threatened by a single man glaring at me across the street with a M4 doped up with Aimpoint, Surefire, Magpul, Larue, Viltor, slung at the ready wearing khaki cargo pants, "shoot me first" vest, chest rig underneath, shroud cut Safariland 6004 drop leg with name your "favorite pee shooter" :D lol in it, than say a bunch of kids, not openly armed, with baggy pants, jerseys, "colors" and askew hats walking the other way on the other side of the street:D Sorry, please don't take offense...just using fun sarcasm to illustrate that circumstances, perspectives and situations can be really difficult to decipher. If I was a LEO (and I'm not) I would "investigate" the people that appeared the most threatening to me or law abiding citizens, and while looking "thuglike" or "gangbanger'esque" are factors, its not the only factor, guns in the open are a huge come bother me sign in my opinion unless you are in a uniform of some type.
Stay safe,
GU
photosniper
09-09-09, 21:51
Hello Gentleman,
I understand from the recent post that some wish to heard what the mindset of a local L/E/O maybe during a SHTF event. While every officer is different and will react based on their personality, training and experience I can relate how I would respond to a armed person during a SHTF encounter. First I have been a Police Officer in a major crime ridden city for 21 years and had 6 active years followed by reserve with the U.S.M.C. I have also taken over 15 advanced firearm training courses at some of the best training locations in the nation so I would say my ability and tactics with a firearm should be above average. That said how would I interact with a armed person during a SHTF event, first and foremost everyone has to understand my safety is my number one concern. No compromises with be made and I will follow my SOP to disarm and identify the armed person. The encounter can go many different ways depending on the compliance level of the armed person.
To be continued, its time to go to work. I will finish this tonight.
Better brush up on your PA law. According to the PA law firearms can NOT be confiscated (and your disarming a armed civilian is confiscating) in a time of crisis, and civilians legally can be armed and openly displaying their long guns. Not trying to be personal Phila PD but unless the said person is doing something illegal (looting, opening fire on other civilians, etc) LEO have no grounds to disarm them. I know things are a little different out there in the big city, then here in South Central PA, but a natural disaster or social breakdown doesn't mean that the law can be disregarded, by civilians or LEO.
Besides that, if the situation is bad enough that I'd be openly carrying my AR, most LEO that I know would be more worried about taking care of their own family than worrying about armed civilians. After Hurricane Katrina, many of the local police officers (especially in New Orleans) headed for the hills with their families. They didn't give a shit about protecting the public. Same thing happened in Biloxi MS and other areas along the coast.
Couple of thoughts, from a career LEO, who is also an NRA Life Member, just so you know where my politics tend to lean.
Phila didn't say confiscate, he said "disarm".
I have met several CCH folks who were legally armed that I temporarily disarmed until I knew who they were, what they were up to, and that they were legit.
A couple of folks who would otherwise have been legally armed via a CCH permit had their gun/s taken and put in to property as they were drunk at the time, which was a no-no according to our laws here.
One can disarm someone for officer safety, temporarily, and then allow them to go on their merry way after being done with the business at hand. I have done so many times over the years to gun carrying folks that I have encountered while at work.
In 1988 I was on looter patrol here after a tornado stomped all over the SW part of town. We were not allowing anybody into the area that did not have ID placing them as a resident of the area, due to looting concerns. So, if I saw some people walking in to or out of the area, and they were carrying guns, those guns would have been on the ground while we talked about who they were and why they were there.
Seems like common sense to me.
Some of my gun rights brothers and sisters get their hackles up and start to get all anti LEO, this is counter productive to all involved. LEOs, according to Terry v Ohio, have a right to stop folks when they have reasonable suspicion to do so, and inquire as to what they are doing and who they are. LEOs are also allowed to "pat down" these folks for officer safety if there is reasonable suspicion to do so, to make sure the person is not armed while the business at hand is concluded. Temporarily taking an openly carried firearm seems quite reasonable to me, and just common sense.
If the person/s are legit, all is well.
I'm pretty sure Phila meant his comments along this vein.
"Terry" stops are just another tool used by good street cops to do what we pay them to do.
I, as much if not more than anyone here, find the gun confiscation that occurred in NOLA objectionable. I wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't stand for it from my troops.
Bad guys come in all shapes and sizes. A recent serial armed robbery suspect in my town looked like a nice young man, college boy, tan, blond hair surfer dude look in shorts and flip-flops, just had a small problem with pulling guns on women and making them give up their purses.
Ted Bundy didn't look like a gang-banger either.
Cops are not psychics. Just sayin.
Back on topic;
As far as long gun carry. In my AO I would be bugging in, not out. I live in the kind of place folks would run to, not from, and we don't have any earthquake or hurricane issues here. We have tornadoes, but these, no matter how bad, are limited in scope and scale.
Of course, there was that New Madrid incident way back when, hmmm......
Anyway, I am part of the infrastructure here, and rather set in my home, so it would have to be the modern version of The Fall of Rome, with the Visigoths coming down I-70, before I would be leaving here.
Where I might be walking with a long gun is if I am out on a road trip and things go bad where I am and the car is damaged or abandoned for whatever reason.
The long gun of choice would be whatever I had with me at the time.
If I have been hunting it may be a Remington 11-87 or 1100, or a Ruger 10-22, or one of a variety of deer rifles.
If I have been training it will be an AR type carbine and my tactical gear.
If shooting isn't a part of the trip I still tend very much to bring a rifle of some sort, even if it's just a .22lr. If I am road tripping it and I run into a trooper on the side of the road in a gunfight, I have a way to engage the bad guy from farther than they can likely engage me, and at any rate they will only know that someone else has butted into their gunfight when my rounds start hitting them in the ass.
My road trip guns tend to vary quite a bit, so I don't have any high speed low profile cases or what-not. If I am hoofing it the rifle du jour will in all likelihood be slung over my shoulder in the open with my BOB (normally a small pack of some sort, I have several and the BOB varies from trip to trip).
On any trip I tend to have at least two handguns and a couple hundred rounds of ammo with me as well.
Better brush up on your PA law. According to the PA law firearms can NOT be confiscated (and your disarming a armed civilian is confiscating) in a time of crisis, and civilians legally can be armed and openly displaying their long guns. Not trying to be personal Phila PD but unless the said person is doing something illegal (looting, opening fire on other civilians, etc) LEO have no grounds to disarm them. I know things are a little different out there in the big city, then here in South Central PA, but a natural disaster or social breakdown doesn't mean that the law can be disregarded, by civilians or LEO.
Besides that, if the situation is bad enough that I'd be openly carrying my AR, most LEO that I know would be more worried about taking care of their own family than worrying about armed civilians. After Hurricane Katrina, many of the local police officers (especially in New Orleans) headed for the hills with their families. They didn't give a shit about protecting the public. Same thing happened in Biloxi MS and other areas along the coast.
Totally fair, legal, and good point, but your treating the law as if it is something set in stone. Which ideally it is, and legally it "is". But that in no way provides you rights in a situation like we are talking about. Like I stated above multiple times, even if these laws are in place, it is my belief that most urban and "sub"urban LEO will simply disarm said individuals and deal with the consequences later.
While I in no way agree with it, I understand the logic, and it comes from living in and around urban environments. At the point of deterioration we are speaking about any officer that is still working will be concerned with maintaining order. Armed civilians present a threat to this order. Thus my statements about keeping a low profile while in an urban area.
As for the "gang banger" look, I have to say that I find this funny as I am sure that others may as well. If you've ever been to Philly, or Brooklyn, or Hartford you'll notice that if you applied this profile to individuals and used it to determine if each person fitting that profile was "armed" you would be spending hours searching 60 - 80% of the youth population. You would be getting people with no ID and people with Yale student ID cards all of which fit the "ghetto" look to a tee. Ever since I started working as a bouncer at a bar I have started smirking every time I hear someone say "he looks like a thug". Once you've been attacked by a hippie with dreadlocks and a grateful dead shirt one night, then followed it up by a fight between two dudes in polo shirts the next, and subsequently shared a beer with a dude in baggy pants, and a gold chain at the end of said night, you realize profiles don't really mean shit!
tpd223
Thanks tpd223 for clarifying a few things, and for your opinion. I appreciate it!
PA PATRIOT
09-10-09, 00:22
I had a long reply typed up to respond the last few posts but for some reason the post was wiped out on posting. So since I don't have another 30 minutes to burn retyping it I will give a short summary,
If I temporary disarm a openly armed person during a SHFT event it is done so as a Officer Safety issue, nothing more. My Investigatory stop is to obtain your legal right to be able to carry a firearm and the intent of being openly armed, nothing more. A simple ID check with a NCIC/PCIC run on that information supplied will allow me to know if your a wanted person, a convicted felon who should not be armed or a person with a valid PFA against them. All three would exclude a person from carrying under the open carry laws of most states. We can check CCW's in short order and if this armed person is clean then they would be on their way in short order. Most police I know are 100% Pro-2nd Amendment and here in Philly we have thousands of CCW permits, about 100,000 I think so we run into armed CCW's all the time. The only thing which a city of the first class does not allow is open carry of any firearm which Philadelphia prohibits so open carry of a long arm would be a neon sign for a Investigatory stop. Common sense rules the day and I know as a L.E.O if I ran across another officer while openly carrying off duty during a SHFT event I would lay that weapon on the deck, follow his commands and show I was no threat. Let that officer conduct his business and I should be on my way shortly.
A thanks to tpd223 as he hit most of my points in my wiped out post.
tpd223 wrote,
Couple of thoughts, from a career LEO, who is also an NRA Life Member, just so you know where my politics tend to lean.
Phila didn't say confiscate, he said "disarm".
I have met several CCH folks who were legally armed that I temporarily disarmed until I knew who they were, what they were up to, and that they were legit.
A couple of folks who would otherwise have been legally armed via a CCH permit had their gun/s taken and put in to property as they were drunk at the time, which was a no-no according to our laws here.
One can disarm someone for officer safety, temporarily, and then allow them to go on their merry way after being done with the business at hand. I have done so many times over the years to gun carrying folks that I have encountered while at work.
In 1988 I was on looter patrol here after a tornado stomped all over the SW part of town. We were now allowing anybody into the area that did not have ID placing them as a resident of the area, due to looting concerns. So, if I saw some people walking in to or out of the area, and they were carrying guns, those guns would have been on the ground while we talked about who they were and why they were there.
Seems like common sense to me.
Some of my gun rights brothers and sisters get their hackles up and start to get all anti LEO, this is counter productive to all involved. LEOs, according to Terry v Ohio, have a right to stop folks when they have reasonable suspicion to do so, and inquire as to what they are doing and who they are. LEOs are also allowed to "pat down" these folks for officer safety if there is reasonable suspicion to do so, to make sure the person is not armed while the business at hand is concluded. Temporarily taking an openly carried firearm seems quite reasonable to me, and just common sense.
If the person/s are legit, all is well.
I'm pretty sure Phila meant his comments along this vein.
"Terry" stops are just another tool used by good street cops to do what we pay them to do.
I, as much if not more than anyone here, find the gun confiscation that occurred in NOLA objectionable. I wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't stand for it from my troops.
Bad guys come in all shapes and sizes. A recent serial armed robbery suspect in my town looked like a nice young man, college boy, tan, blond hair surfer dude look in shorts and flip-flops, just had a small problem with pulling guns on women and making them give up their purses.
Ted Bundy didn't look like a gang-banger either.
Cops are not psychics. Just sayin.
Guys there are some great discussions here. Rocket20, thank you for your well thought out post. That's not saying the rest of you aren't posting great shit!!! :)
Some things that are spinning off from this is thread that might need to be addressed, as Rocket20 posted, are essential necessities and caches, as well as a critical look at what to expect when encountering Law Enforcement.
It's easy to think that a long gun will solve every problem. It won't. There are several things I would want before I had to have a long gun. I'm not saying anyone here is being that obtuse, but it's easy to fall into that mindset. A discussion of true necessities would be outstanding. Another thread on caches and its uses might be good.
I've seen on other forums where gun discussions with Law Enforcement go down hill quickly. I think most of us are on the same page and the discussion has been very professional so far. Please keep it that way. I think hearing and knowing what would occur if we encounter any Law Enforcement is a tremendous tool. For me, my dad gave me some hints on how to deal with LE while carrying concealed. It has been very helpful for both myself and the officer that has pulled me over. The exchange has always been professional, the officer knew he was safe, and I didn't feel like "the man" was there to take my gun(s). Considering my driving habits, it happens quite a bit. :)
Well I can say that every time I have dealt with an officer I have told them about any weapons I have prior to them finding anything, and that every experience has been more then easy (except the time that I forgot the knife on the trunk of the car and drove home, but hell, it managed to not fall off in the four miles to my house, so all is good).
Dealing with officers is one thing, and I am glad that this discussion is going there, but I do think that in regards to someone dealing with bugging out, and leaving an area that we can all agree that any confrontation, or detainment that will slow you from your goal is not wanted. Therefore, despite the last several posts, it is still critical that you avoid LEO contact as it will ultimately slow you down.
Hey, I got stopped for speeding one night by a trooper, I was enroute to a Guard event (I was still in back then) in BDUs and had an M14 on the back seat of my car. Since we had a real problem with "militias" (I know, and you know, but I think you also know what I mean) that went under the Posse Comitatus label threatening LEOs in our state, you bet your ass I had the dome light on and my hands out the driver window before he walked up to my car.
Back on long guns and walking.
The thought occurs to me that it would be a good idea to have some sort of camo cover, preferably waterproof, or extra large trash bags to go with the cover/case, just in case you needed to stash or cache the rifle somewhere.
PA PATRIOT
09-10-09, 12:01
Better brush up on your PA law. According to the PA law firearms can NOT be confiscated (and your disarming a armed civilian is confiscating) in a time of crisis, and civilians legally can be armed and openly displaying their long guns. Not trying to be personal Phila PD but unless the said person is doing something illegal (looting, opening fire on other civilians, etc) LEO have no grounds to disarm them. I know things are a little different out there in the big city, then here in South Central PA, but a natural disaster or social breakdown doesn't mean that the law can be disregarded, by civilians or LEO.
Besides that, if the situation is bad enough that I'd be openly carrying my AR, most LEO that I know would be more worried about taking care of their own family than worrying about armed civilians. After Hurricane Katrina, many of the local police officers (especially in New Orleans) headed for the hills with their families. They didn't give a shit about protecting the public. Same thing happened in Biloxi MS and other areas along the coast.
Please contact the Attorney Generals Office of PA and inquire about PA gun law and PA Court Case pertaining to Open Carry and Concealed Carry within the state during normal and times of crisis. Not trying to be personal but you really seem to have some serious misconceptions on legal reality and case law were police have a legal right to stop and investigate. Disarming is not confiscation by any means and its has been up-held by case law as a officer safety issue. That said the last thing I would wish to do is confiscate a weapon from a person during a SHTF event, but in the course of restoring order the police at some point have to see who the good and bad guys are carrying those weapons. Good guys have nothing to fear by me and will be free to continue their mission after a brief stop. Since I can not assume intent by mere appearance I have to do my thing for the safely of all. Its not personal, just business.
As to other police "Running for the hills" this maybe true as I was not there to say other wise. But as any another father, husband I would of course make sure my family was safe and on their way and then return to my duties unless my city was a mushroom cloud. Barring that I will do my duty as I have for the past 27 years of combined military and L/E service. I can also attest that many of my co-worker would do the same.
dmcmanus,
I work for an agency that is located in a rural area, but part of the county is in urban area also. They have their own LE, but we serve warrants, civil process, and will back them up when necessary or vice-versa. We answer calls for any residence outside of the county,which is over half the population.
I can't speak for every agency, but I think people should not be worried if they have an OD green back pack, tactical pants or a visible rifle. This would be the least of my worries This is my belief if we are speaking a TRUE SHTF country wide. If we are talking a part of a state or even a whole state, I wouldn't agree with what I said. I am thinking countrywide or a major regional area of the country.
People have to remember LE is outnumbered by far and I think if LE stayed organized it would be in communities near government centers. In rural areas people are crazy if they think there would be some quick, organized, response. Again, if citizens are on foot, I am assuming most LE would have to be to. What are the chances a person would be able to contact le to come respond to their home in this type of situation? I would hope and belive my agency would attempt to set up patrols for rural areas in the county, but it's going to be hard to patrol on foot and cover all that ground. Won't happen easily without vehicles.
I think you have to consider if you started off on foot right away or has time passed between the "event" and when you start traveling on foot? If I weren't LE I would still try to stay home as long as possible, depending on the situation. The longer the time between the "event" and starting on foot, the more likely many other people are doing what you are doing. Meaning, traveling with firearms and such may be a very common sight. Those who weren't or had no plans or preps may be long gone.
Again, maybe I am thinking much worse than some of you. I am thinking of something very severe that interferes with our infrastructure such as roads, communications, power, etc..... all at the same time or at least several major things at once. I am thinking much bigger than Katrina.
Edited to add: I agree temporarily disarming someone is not confiscating. The situation I am thinking though, there would be no way to do a terry stop on everyone with a gun. If a situation is more localized you should expect a terry stop, but nation wise SHTF, it might happen at first, but I think armed people would become a common sight quickly. Terry stops would then be reserved for those who appear to be conducting or about to conduct criminal activity.
Outlander Systems
09-10-09, 18:49
SeanG: "I am thinking much bigger than Katrina."
I think I'm tracking with you. If it comes down to foot-travel with long-gun in tow, I can't imagine it being less than something truly horrible.
On this topic, I'm talking something bigger and badder than what we're "used to".
Phila: "Bad guys come in all shapes and sizes."
As someone who, to borrow from Tolkien, "Looks foul, but feels fair". I appreciate that. Most of the people I've met, who are truly gnarly on the inside, appear to be dashing on the exterior.
ETA:
Am I the only "child of the Cold War" who still hasn't shaken concerns of thermonuclear warfare?
This could open a few more options as to discrete transport/carry of a long gun. (better optics/buis should go without saying)
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr312/Luke_Y/Sig%20556/00-01-14-09-0079.jpg
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr312/Luke_Y/Sig%20556/00-01-14-09-0077.jpg
Am I the only "child of the Cold War" who still hasn't shaken concerns of thermonuclear warfare?
No not at all. I think there will be another nuclear weapon attack in the worlds history. Will it involve the United States? That I don't know, but there are just too many players now for them all to follow the doctrine of mutual deterrents. And the fact that religion is at the heart of some of these nations infrastructure/belief structure it is pretty much a definite! Zealots with guns are one thing. Zealots with nukes... Well.
PA PATRIOT
09-11-09, 18:40
This could open a few more options as to discrete transport/carry of a long gun. (better optics/buis should go without saying)
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr312/Luke_Y/Sig%20556/00-01-14-09-0079.jpg
http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr312/Luke_Y/Sig%20556/00-01-14-09-0077.jpg
I like it, who makes it and were can I find one.
I have given this great thought, and here is my position.
There are two catagories for this:
1-Very tense environment, I am on foot, have to get to destination.
Or
2-Very tense environment, contact likely, SHTF, on foot, have to get there!
1-Handgun, Glock 22, extra mags, running shoes, water, and power bars.
With quality training, you can hit at 100 yards with 12" with a .40 cal. Most people suck at shooting, and worse at a moving target. My goal is fast movement with minimal baggage, adequate firepower to deal with direct threats.
I would carry concealed until needed, and be low profile.
2-M-4, Glock 22, extra mags, running shoes, water, powerbars.
With quality training, you can hit very well out to 600 with an Eotech, and M-4. Semi auto you can go lots of damage with 13 mags. 12 in vest, 1 in rifle.
Camelback with water, minimal baggage, you should be able to get where you need to go safely.
M-4 not concealed, Glock in dropdown, and not being an easy target. If things are that bad, the cops are most likely nowhere in the area, and/or National Guard is enroute. Think LA riots. One person on foot had better look capable, or like Clint Smith says, "If you look like food, your going to get eaten!".
Not looking for trouble, not brandishing, but minding my own business, and just moving through. Some people may need to be told this, while you keep moving.
At that point, there will be tastier targets, and nobody wants to mess with a porcuipine. Not worth it, and if I run into LE, I will comply as directed, and explain myself. Obviously it will save everyone time and hassle to avoid all types, good and bad if you travel at night, or dawn, and avoid contact.
Ultimately avoid trouble enroute, but always have a plan to deal with everyone you encounter.
I've kept an eye on this thread off and on for awhile now. I don't think any response can be labeled as 'wrong' nor 'right' for every situation.
I will try to give a quick insight into my situation;
I think most of these situations will be affected by location. I am going to asume that something very serious has happened to remove the ability to travel by vehicle, I will not even begin to take guesses as to what. I will also assume that it will also affect the general population as well, otherwise I'm not going to bug out on foot when we have two vehicles available to us.
My wife and I have already discussed this type of scenario several times and have a handful of plans worked out, dependant on the type of situation and destination.
Location,
We live in what may best be described as the foothills of the Smokey Mountains, while we refer to local topographies as ridges and valleys, most outsiders still call them moutains. And they can still be very rugged in certain locations even though they are not nearly the size of the Smokeys.
We have two main destinations if we needed to move out. The primary destination is 23 miles by road and 14 miles by direct route. The secondary destination is 6 miles by road and 3 miles direct. I will discuss the primary destination.
The primary is the primary because it will be more dependant on us for security and maintance (firewood/food/repairs etc.) as well as providing much better opportunities for hunting (small and large game) gardening, water and, depending on circumstances, firewood and cabin building materials.
Although it is 23 miles by road compared to 14 miles direct, the road route will be the easiest and quickest and can be done in one long day if no conflicts are encountered. The 14 mile route will cross some very rugged terrain and will take at least two days and possibly three but offers the ability to travel unseen. If the possibility of a conflit is high we will most likey take the 14 mile direct route, and if moving at night we can almost completely avoid two legged contacts.
So if some situation has caused us to bug out on foot there is no doubt we will both be carrying rifles and pistols without regard to concealing them, and will be carrying heavy loads as the primary destination will most likey be the long term living quarters. Although to get most of our gear there may require two to three return trips depending on the situation and how much our gear and tools may be needed at the new location. Most likely I will make the return trips solo to increase speed and decrease risk to my family.
This has been a very intresting thread and seems to be based very much on each persons location as well the severity of the preceived cause of disruption. I will have to continue to keep an eye on this one.
Not to be combative, but having read all the posts here, nobodies life is more important than anyone elses reguardless of any real or percieved threat.
Having said that, until it is common to see people with rifles slung in open, I'm making every attempt to hide mine, either on my person or elsewhere, depending on environment.
What really needs to be defined, or prefaced, is the extent of the social break down.
Again, not to be combative, but I will decide if it safe to let anyone "detain" me or my firearms.
I pray allot, and hopefully, at the end of the day, I make the best decisions for myself and my family based on allot of variables, some thought out, some on the fly.
A handgun alone would work, or at least it works 24/7 for Jack Bauer.
My thoughts on the subject, which may not work for everyone. This plan is for walking out.
Hurricane - If we're evacuating for a couple of days/weeks and it's just a regional event. My wife and I both have a bug out bag and both she and I will have handguns. I carry the large pack which can sustain us for 72 hours. She carries the small one, with tent, sleeping bags and spare ammo. My pack is about 30 lbs, additional weight/ammo/supplies can be carried on load bearing vest. No long gun.
Hurricane with looting - we would prefer to hunker down in a Katrina type incident, which is the reason the wife and I started stocking up. If we had to leave the house, same packs, but I carry a AK 47 under folder slung along with a handgun and the wife carries the AR. We would rather stay put and barricade in a Katrina type incident.
Economic Collapse - would mean basic woodsman survival. In that case I would carry the slung AK/handgun and the wife would carry a ruger .22 rifle with 500 extra rounds(hunting small game quietly), extra rounds for the AK and a handgun.
Now driving out is a whole different set of thoughts.
one word: FMG-9 :D
tagged.
I just want to post a quick update:
I recently purchased a Eberlestock G4 Operator pack (birthday present). I will be taking out on several hike in hunting trips this season, but I thought I would post in this forum regarding my initial impression:
The pack is well designed, and bigger then you would think. But that is off subject for this thread, what I want to state is that the scabbard in the back completely conceals my SW MP15 ORC which has a fixed stock due to my state. You add a sleeping bag to the bottom of the bag like a traditional backpack and you have a completely concealed firearm that goes in and out of the scabbard with ease. I am happy to report that I have found my solution for all movement with an M4 style weapon in an emergency situation. Whether it be in a car next to me, on my back in an urban environment, or moving across mountains.
Lots of greats posts on this topic so far. I think your location and the situation really dictate if you take a long gun while bugging out.
For me things would have to be pretty bad to actually think about bugging out. I have pretty good supply of essentials to bug in with. I also have an elderly parent that lives with me. My old man would have a hard time bugging out period.
If I am forced to leave my home on foot, then things will be bad. I suspect bad enough that I will feel the need to have protection and the desire to avoid people all together. This means traveling through the many wooded areas and at night to avoid contact with "bad guys" or LE/Military. I suspect in my state(MA) that LE will not be keen on citizens traveling with long guns, so avoidance will be important.
Weight is an issue, but I think its worth it in the long run to have a long gun and extra ammo. Having a decent pack and hiking with it loaded helps to keep in shape for a time when I might need to "Pop smoke".
PA PATRIOT
11-06-09, 12:21
Many talk a good talk on what they would do if this, that or the other thing happen. How many people actually attempted to simulate that great hump down the road or Thur the hills? Did you take the family with, live off the land or only your packed in supplies? Or how about that BUG-IN were power, water and gas are gone and you live off your SHTF supplies for a extended period of time. Well I'M going to try to walk the walk so to speak by doing a Pack IN Only road trip in the woods of the great state of Maine. My hunting camp is located in Saint Francis off RT-11 very close to the Canadian boarder. It takes two topped off tanks of gas plus a five gallon jug of additional gas to pull into the front yard starting from my home in Philly. Heres the problem, we drive I-95 almost all the way which takes us Thur or near several major cities with a straight drive time of 15 hours. Are mission is to pack and carry are existing bug-out gear using roads which by-pass any major town or city by a good distance. We will post night security and rest in only in non populous areas using only what we carry. This will be with the kids and the mouse catcher to keep it real and we will not buy a single drop of gas or food along the way. Between Food, Water, Gear and the Alpine Camper I can store Ten-five gallon plastic jugs of gas on outside racks. I use Blue colored jugs which have "Water" molded on the side so not to be looking like a moving gas station (The Manufacturer stated the only difference between red and blue jugs is the DOT required color and warnings and nothing else) so starting out with a full topped off tank I should have enough gas to make it there. On arrival we unload and only use what we packed in for two weeks at the cabin. Since we don't wish to pull the kids out of school the trip will occur over the easter or summer break. The one thing I will not do is add addition gear for the trip when it occurs, we will use the Bug-Out gear and stores only..Nothing more......Pictures and video clips will be posted without edit so you will see the good, the bad, and the kids!!!!!!!
Outlander Systems
11-06-09, 12:33
The one thing I will not do is add addition gear for the trip when it occurs, we will use the Bug-Out gear and stores only..Nothing more......Pictures and video clips will be posted without edit so you will see the good, the bad, and the kids!!!!!!!
Awesome dude. Can't wait to see this. Should be an excellent thread.
FlyAndFight
11-06-09, 13:10
Will be following this one as well. Very interested.
PA PATRIOT
11-06-09, 19:13
So far I have run 10 different driving routes Thur the GPS checking any substantial populated areas on map quest for drive a round directions and adding it into the finial route. Driving time has been inflated to 21.75 hours and I still have enough carry on fuel but little reserve left. All my extra fuel is carried on racks on the rear of the vehicle and camper so unless I find bigger fuel containers (Not wider but taller) to increase total capacity I wont have fuel for unexpected delays if they occur. I may have to look into ways to make the vehicle more fuel efficient and lighten the overall load weight a bit.
Maybe its a good thing I decided to run a dressed rehearsal of a worst case scenario because I could have been stranded on the side of the road in the middle of no where. This is really opening my eyes big time. Now if the event is limited in scope I can go back to using major routes which will save time and fuel when possible but I want to be ready for anything so this is still a worst case test run.
I just want to post a quick update:
I recently purchased a Eberlestock G4 Operator pack (birthday present). I will be taking out on several hike in hunting trips this season, but I thought I would post in this forum regarding my initial impression:
The pack is well designed, and bigger then you would think. But that is off subject for this thread, what I want to state is that the scabbard in the back completely conceals my SW MP15 ORC which has a fixed stock due to my state. You add a sleeping bag to the bottom of the bag like a traditional backpack and you have a completely concealed firearm that goes in and out of the scabbard with ease. I am happy to report that I have found my solution for all movement with an M4 style weapon in an emergency situation. Whether it be in a car next to me, on my back in an urban environment, or moving across mountains.
How about something similar, but with wheels? Maybe a jogging stroller? http://www.joggingstroller.com/Tike-Tech-Trax360-Single.pro. I mainly see evacuating on foot from a car that has broken down, or if fallen trees have blocked the road. A folding bicycle would fit in the Eberstock. You could ride the bike wherever practical or fold it up and pack it through rough terrain. I will be bugging in unless something really dire has happened.
No one has mentioned a bullpup, say a Steyr AUG.
Fascinating thread. I pray for all of us that it remains hypothetical.
PA PATRIOT
11-07-09, 01:45
If I empty the on-board water supply of the camper by 2/3's, the two banks of three solar panels (Each Bank is 45 watts), the four deep cells (Two for each solar bank) and one of the two camper spare tires and remove the two 30lb propane bottles I can reduce the weight of the camper a few hundred pounds. If I remove the fold down third row seats of my SUV thats another 100+ pounds saved. A set of new high end spark plugs and wires and one of those high volume high tech air filters will increase mileage (Vehicle has 44,000 miles and is ready for the maintenance) some what. I won't touch food, remaining water, guns & ammo, first aid or clothing.
Its a tough call as the camper will be the new home if we don't make it to Maine due to road/bridge closers or Government quarantine so I don't want to strip it where there is no power by solar means to recharge battery's for perimeter LED motion lights, camper LED lights, radio and small camper ventilation fan use at night or the propane for heating.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos//90500-90599/90599-t.gif
http://www.chaletrv.com/images/xl_1935.jpg
Chalet Folding Travel Trailer - XL 1920v Series
Trailer weight 1950lbs dry and folds flat for transport
One Camper queen bed, One set of bunk beds for kids
Shower/Bathroom option installed
http://www.chaletrv.com/images/xl1920_fp.gif
Removable rear rack on trailer is just the right size for five jerry can type fuel jugs and another metal rack just in front of propane bottles which holds five more with soft covers over both and a hard cover over propane bottles.
Good thread. More then a few years ago I had to pick up a friend that was living near the 'Over the Rhine' riots in Cinci. I was in college and took what I had available at the time, a folding stock mossy 500 and a hicap pistol. Didnt feel undergunned with either but if it happened again Id bring at least 2 pistols and a rifle. I think these scenarios are very contingent on whether ur walking or in a vehicle. Its a whole lot easier to keep a long gun in a vehicle as compared to hoofing with it. Wish someone would manufacture Magpul's PDR.
threeheadeddog
11-26-09, 20:01
This is one of those cases where I think the "modern method" or at least the modern mentality of shooters especially the more dedicated ones who really do know what they are talking about causes the defensive community to very much use tunnel vision.
We all know that a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle and a rifle that uses a pistol caliber isnt really a rifle blah blah blah, but there are very few available rifles that can truely fit the concealable rifle role. If you want a rifle that can be covered your choices are pretty much limited and must include a tax stamp. Off the top of my head there is only
1.Ak krink with lower cap mags
2.the sig shorty
3.the XCR
Now none of these are generally used as primarys for most people. Most prefer an AR. If you have one of the above and use it well than more power to ya, but dont discount the small pistol carbine just because the mentioned tunnel vision of the "Best choice" causes you to discount the possible more applicable choice.
On the other hand you can get a very small package with a pistol caliber carbine in SBR form. They are easier to conceal and slightly cheaper at the cost of terminal performance.
1.B&T TP9 SBR
2.Mac SBR(yes i know but a masterpiece arms is only about 450 and would do just fine for this application)
3.SBR p90(again not perfect but very concealable especially considering the mag position)
4.UZI SBR
5.basically any 1960-1980's sub-machine gun clone and there are a ton available in semi form that can be sbr'd... the cz-scorpion is even available though that may be even too underpowered for the scope of this post which is already kind of a reluctant promotion of underpowered weapons based on the necessity of concealment.
2.
PA PATRIOT
11-28-09, 13:08
If one does the paperwork I think its a form #1 and pays the fee then this maybe a good concealable option that is low cost and reliable.
http://www.zahal.org/rifle/p22.htm
Is there any reason a Kel-Tec SUB-2000 (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm) or SU-16C (http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/su16c.htm) would not be an option? They certainly wouldn't be my first choice, they'd work well enough to GTFO of a fight wherein a longer gun is required...
-B
Many talk a good talk on what they would do if this, that or the other thing happen. How many people actually attempted to simulate that great hump down the road or Thur the hills?
Just want to reply to this by saying that I actively train regarding my posts in this forum and others. I don't have kids so I don't take them... :) But my fiance is more then capable of keeping up, and at times schools me on certain trails.
To update everyone regarding the above pack (eberlestock), and my experiences thus far with it. I have been actively taking it out hunting about three times a week. I've done one overnight in 20 degree weather with it, several 3-5 mile hikes with a medium load, one 10 mile with a full load ext. Ergonomics are amazing, but the pack has so many friggen straps that trouble shooting issues is a bit difficult with it. Almost like there are to many options. I have also found that the pack has a slight shift from left to right when you twist your body if you have a full loaded rifle in the scabbard. This can be solved by adjusting certain straps, however if you adjust to much to the left or the right on the given strap, you get a shift of the weight in the pack. I am happy with the pack, but I need more experience with it to solve these issues.
My only complaint is the packs weight. On it's' own it weighs about 11 pounds. On my two full load hikes, I felt this on the 10 mile one towards the end, which was on semi flat ground, and I finished in great time. On the shorter 5 mile full load hike I did, the weight kicked my ass at one point, but I was doing a very rocky 50 degree trail for about a mile and a half.
I'm going out with it again today for a few hours. I know for a fact that my fiance and I can survive as a team in a rural back woods bug out situation for a long while, and cover good ground while doing it...;)
I posted back in September 2009 about an uncoming mountain hunting trip where I woulld evaluate the Eblerstock Gunslinger as a carriage method for a long gun if you have to move a distance by foot. While its a bit late in coming...here goes.
I went on a 6 day hunt into the Rocky Mountains. We packed in, the ascent taking some 5 plus hours. The base camp was at about 6000 feet and the highest we hunted about 8300 feet.
My brother and I both used Eblerstock Gunslingers. I carried a pack load of about 55 lbs that included; incliment wx clothes, sleeping bag, bivy bag, medical supplies, survival kit, skinning knives and meat saw, camera, water and food for a day, stove propane, extra rifle shells, shotgun shells and a Mossberg 500 for camp defence in case a Grizzly decided to visit.
I carried a scoped Winchester Model 70 in .270 in my hands. The shotgun was carried on the pack scabbard.
There was little in the way of room in that pack after I was done with it. So my first point about this load carriage system is that it goes a decent way to support once person, but will not support you, the wife, kids and dog for any length of time. It is fine for an overnight bag or 2 day minimalist bag for a family of four, but not for much longer.
The load was very comfortable. I didn't require much in the way of adjustment to carry the load up the hill or for the return down when I had meat strapped on. The load coming off the mountain was probably around 80 lbs that included some Mountain Goat after a successful hunt.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/006-4.jpg
I used the pack everyday, stripped down as a day pack. I found it to be a very effective and comfortable load carriage system. I usually left the shotgun in camp when hunting for the day to reduce weight, carrying the .270. When I shot my Goat, a 2 year Billy, that gun scabbard in the pack came in real handy to keep both hands free to balance myself over steep and rough terrain to pack the goat out.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/010-2.jpg
My ONLY complaint about the pack was the scabbard in foul weather. As I had stripped the pack down, I left the gun scabbard boot or cover in camp. The day I shot the Goat, it rained like a bastard. I had the rifle in the scabbard on the way down. And it was like it had been submerged in water. While the boot may have kept some rain out, it wouldn't have been much. There are drain holes in the bottom of the scabbard, but they aren't big enough. They plugged up full of moss and pine needles, not allowing water to escape sufficiently. The rubberlike scabbard bottom acted like a bowl collecting water and leaving about 4-5 inches of barrel pretty well submerged. A pack rain cover would easily fix the problem.
Aside from the rain issue, the pack rocks. I think it is a very effective means to carry a decent indivdual load out and carry a long gun discreetly and still have it readily accessible.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/040-1.jpg
My bug on the go rifle is a Ak underfolder with a Ultimak and a H1. I fits slung under a coat and is ready to deploy instantly. I'm searching for quick detach sling setup that I have not found yet.
Outlander Systems
01-04-10, 10:20
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n180/railcop/006-4.jpg
How's the Snugpak holding up being carried externally on the pack? I'm considering moving mine to the webbing on a vest, and getting a heavier one for my winter pack.
How's the Snugpak holding up being carried externally on the pack? I'm considering moving mine to the webbing on a vest, and getting a heavier one for my winter pack.
It has worked out fine. The bag itself comes in decent/durable stuff sack, so unless it is constantly scraped on an abrasive surface, it should hold up really well. I have mine tourqued down really good. It doesn't move.
Outlander Systems
01-04-10, 14:12
It has worked out fine. The bag itself comes in decent/durable stuff sack, so unless it is constantly scraped on an abrasive surface, it should hold up really well. I have mine tourqued down really good. It doesn't move.
Roger that. I guess I'll quit being a ninny, and strap it on the outside.
one advantage to the Sneaky Bag, or ANY "discrete case" is just that... it's more discrete than the typical wedge-shaped "assault cases" with mag pockets on the outside. those cases are even worse when they're camo.
for norma, day-to-day, non SHTF stuff people need to move gear between their home and their vehicle and back. that's a challenge in some areas. unless you live on several acres or have landscaping that helps screen the view of the driveway and garage, or have the ability to pull the vehicle into the garag to load it... you'll need to move stuff where almost anyone passing by can see it.
my garage doesn't have room to park the truck inside. it's got shelving, motorcycles, workbenches, toolboxes, bicycles and other gear filling most of it and my driveway is in plain view of the whole street.
so i'm a big fan of the shorter, non descript, rectangular cases. unfortunately, the common colors are black, OD and tan... and again, some come in camo which kind of defeats the purpose. a 33" or shorter case like this looks farily mundane. the 42" or longer versions start to look more rifle like. and the shortest Sneaky Bag goes a long way to throw off the casual observer because it looks more like a "normal" backpack, except that it's slightly longer.
i've seen pix of people using some skateboard cases which looked very discrete, and tennis racket cases... but those only look "right" if you LOOK like you play tennis. if you're #60 or more overweight don't think you're gonna fool anyone.
shorter rifles like the SBR Sig 556 posted earlier, or the Daewoo K1 i sold off several years ago after it became a safe queen that you couldn't find parts for or the FN P90 and anything else with a short barrel and a side folding stock seem to be good candidates for discrete transport. full length FAL, M1A or AR? not so good. at least not for being discretely transported.
if TSHTF, i think the case's job is probably done once you get the hardware to the vehicle. it still serves a function while driving to wherever you're going... but if you leave the vehicle, it's probably time to ditch/stow the case.
the backpack with the long gun scabbard seems to work, but doesn't seem to have any provision for mags... and that's where the small Sneaky Bag that you sling over your shoulder and carry mags, first aid, water and whatever else in seems to have a role in some scenarios. again, until the rifle is displayed with it, it passes casual observation. so if it's stored in the back of your SUV, or in the back seat of your car and you need to give a co-worker a lift to lunch, or home after their car breaks down at work... you don't have someone wondering WTF all the mil-spec gear is in your vehicle.
i don't have any of the Sneakybag stuff yet... finally saw one in person at a carbine shoot last week. it looked almost, but not quite normal, but far more normal than any other case there. this one was all tan and if it was built with more conventional colors that would help even more. they do offer it in gray, with black trim which seems to be the best choice.
i've also seen a "guitar" case designed to haul a rifle. that may work as long as you only have one... multiple cases like that might not work so well.
a friend of mine recently got a Kel Tec Sub 2000. it fits in a cheap laptop case. you could carry it anywhere that doesn't require going thru a metal detector. carry it in the mall or into most offices and nobody would notice.
the larger Kel Tec SU16s fold compactly, but IMHO the LOP on the stock is too long. they have their new kit that mounts a M4 stock, but the only pics i've seen of it suggest that it no longer folds as compactly.
and speaking of that rifle, an AR with a CAR/M4 stock and a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached Phantom is only about 3" longer then the folded Kel-Tec. i had a chance to compare them side by side at a gunshow last year.
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/greygrouptraining/002.jpg
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/greygrouptraining/003.jpg
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/greygrouptraining/004.jpg
:cool:
I've put some thought into this very issue.
My thoughts:
1. Rifle (SBR)is a must in any prolonged "situation"
2. Covert 1s extremely important
3. Must be able to carry SBR in any street clothes, no jacket or covering neccessary (vests and tac belts not an option)
Here is the best I've come up with for an SBR. Its a Condor messenger bag.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKO6G30bI/AAAAAAAAAVE/FsON6HXvPyM/s144/Condor%20Messenger%205.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKOVKjUPI/AAAAAAAAAVA/tCAaIZqV5Jk/s144/Condor%20Messenger%204.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKNEksDpI/AAAAAAAAAU0/ooyYx5dZJrE/s144/Condor%20Messenger%201.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKN6R6wpI/AAAAAAAAAU8/J0juzQDGbcY/s144/Condor%20Messenger%203.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKMdSgRHI/AAAAAAAAAUo/5mXYBd2mj00/s144/Condor%20Dbl%20AR%20pouch.jpg
My thoughts on the Condor Bag:
1. Ideally I would like molly under the flap instead of pockets that way nothing is visible until needed (at that point the flap would be removed or folded back.) To carry more than 2 quickly accessible SBR mags you need to add molle mag carriers to the molle on the outside of the flap... Actually a combo of pockets and molle under the flap would be ideal.
2. Perfect size for and SBR, mags, odds and ends
3. Functions great as a dump bag
4. Very discrete minus molle
5. Comfortable
6. Hangs on left side over right shoulder so its out of the way of my OWB
7. Very quickly accessible
8. Has a useful waist belt to stop the "flop"
I've put some thought into this very issue.
My thoughts:
1. Rifle (SBR)is a must in any prolonged "situation"
2. Covert 1s extremely important
3. Must be able to carry SBR in any street clothes, no jacket or covering neccessary (vests and tac belts not an option)
Here is the best I've come up with for an SBR. Its a Condor messenger bag.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKO6G30bI/AAAAAAAAAVE/FsON6HXvPyM/s144/Condor%20Messenger%205.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKOVKjUPI/AAAAAAAAAVA/tCAaIZqV5Jk/s144/Condor%20Messenger%204.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKNEksDpI/AAAAAAAAAU0/ooyYx5dZJrE/s144/Condor%20Messenger%201.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKN6R6wpI/AAAAAAAAAU8/J0juzQDGbcY/s144/Condor%20Messenger%203.jpg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_4m4LmznY7_E/S3HKMdSgRHI/AAAAAAAAAUo/5mXYBd2mj00/s144/Condor%20Dbl%20AR%20pouch.jpg
My thoughts on the Condor Bag:
1. Ideally I would like molly under the flap instead of pockets that way nothing is visible until needed (at that point the flap would be removed or folded back.) To carry more than 2 quickly accessible SBR mags you need to add molle mag carriers to the molle on the outside of the flap... Actually a combo of pockets and molle under the flap would be ideal.
2. Perfect size for and SBR, mags, odds and ends
3. Functions great as a dump bag
4. Very discrete minus molle
5. Comfortable
6. Hangs on left side over right shoulder so its out of the way of my OWB
7. Very quickly accessible
8. Has a useful waist belt to stop the "flop"
How's an SBR going to fit in that? It would certianly have to put the S in SBR :)
How's an SBR going to fit in that? It would certianly have to put the S in SBR :)
Sig 556 fits perfectly
Hmm. Is there more than one model of that bag? All the listings I can find for Condor Messenger Bag show the largest compartment as 12 X 6 X 1.25
My 556 SBR is over 20" folded and more than 7" high...
I agree that with the molle straps on the outside, it doesn't meet the criteria of discrete. It would be great without the exterior molle and in a different colorIF I could actually fit a 556 inside it.
Hmm. Seems like you might be missing something.
The bag is quite a bit longer and taller than 12". Only thing that might fit those dimensions is one the pockets on the exterior, under the flap...
Best suggestion is to find one and try it for yourself.
Are we talking about THIS (http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productID=19794&TabID=548) bag?
MAIN COMPARTMENT DIMENSIONS: 6" x 12" x 1.25"
ID SLOT COMPARTMENT DIMENSIONS: 4" x 5" x 1"
TOP LEFT UTILITY COMPARTMENT DIMENSIONS: 4" x 6" x 1"
LONG BOTTOM COMPARTMENT DIMENSIONS: 2" x 11 " x 1"
OVERALL DIMENSIONS: 11" x 14" x 5"
If not can you give me a link?
PA PATRIOT
03-15-10, 21:37
Seems a bit large for street carry and it would definitely get the attention of the predators after a SHTF event. Large bags means lots of goodies for the taking and if things were bad enough one may never hear the shot before the darkness.
The way I see it, when things get bad, just about anything will attract attention. That includes you just being there, let alone carrying just about anything.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8858/m6vn3.jpg
Is that a condom taped to the butt stock of your rifle? You really are prepared for anything, aren't you?
What about a Mech Tech CCU for a Glock? My Dad and I have one for a G19 with the telestock and it’s had no issues. I don’t have a solid round count but it’s got to be several K by now. The only issue I have with it is that it is easy to misplace the “Glock block”. Right now it has a cheap 4x Bushnell scope on it but with a decent RDS it could be a potent backpack carbine.
To be honest I would be better served bugging in were I live. I have plenty of food , water, and land so leaving would not make sense unless it was real bad and at that point I don’t think open carrying a rifle would make much of a difference.
The more likely situation for me is being at work and having to get home in which case I would rather be fast and light to cover the most distance.
I typed down some ramblings of my own.
I think the how, why, and when to carry a long gun when bugging out is more a question for the folks that live in a big city.
When the SHTF (i.e. no water, no food) the big cities are going to be hell for the first two weeks. After the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse ride out of the city, it's going to be quite a good source for supplies etc. But may partially be controlled by people less than inclined to share, people that have been through hell and back. They may trade, but they also may trade your life for those sunglasses you happen to be wearing.
Anyway, as soon as the water stops, preferably 12 hours before that, or when the supply trucks stop rolling, I'm bugging out. I rather take my chances traveling than riding out the hell brought upon us by the Four Horsemen, even with a kid and wife. I feel I have no choice.
Better option would be to relocate the living quarters out of the city before the SHTF. Sure relocating is relatively easy but I'm not so sure if I can convince the wife with our little kid of the urgency at this very moment. We do have a target location in the countryside, but it's a 6hr drive on a good traffic day. So my idea is to punch out as far as possible with a vehicle and keep in mind we may be put on foot anywhere in between. Laminated paper maps with railroads (bridges), powerlines, and other utility lines. You know, the 'roads' less traveled. It's a scary thought. Traveling at night, have red-filtered flashlights and spare batteries handy.
Back to the question how to pack a long gun. Besides holstered handguns with spare mags for the adults, I am bringing at least one long gun. I'm still not sure which one, the 16" AR15 or the Para-FAL. Both have their short comings and both have their strengths. I'm going to have one mag in the rifle, two mags on the belt and six more in a bag.
The 7.62x51 round will do better penetrating barriers (cars, houses, etc) at long and short distances. But it's relatively heavy and I can only bring about half the round-count (based on weight) compared to the AR15. But, the wife doesn't like the FAL much, it's big, it's heavy, and it's mean.
The AR is considerably lighter, you can bring about twice the round-count, running out of projectiles on a one-way range is no fun but on a two-way range it just plain sucks. The wife likes the AR and she likes shooting it, she will know how to operate the AR better than the FAL. This is a strong plus, because if I don't make it I want her to have something that she is familiar with and can use effectively.
The AR would be fed Winchester’s “barrier blind” 60gr Nosler Partition (standard issue FBI .223 load), I very much like the performance of the 150gr NP from my .270 that manages to take out a bull elk each year. While the FAL would be getting the "fragmenting" surplus German NATO round (DAG DM111).
Either way I'll be carrying the rifle in a SERT System C3 (http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.misc.html#c3) case if concealment is needed and slung when all bets are off. This case will barely hold a collapsed 18" Para-FAL or a broken down 16" AR quite nicely.
Carrying concealed for the most time is important I think, because people may like what they see, follow you from a distance and hit you at night or at another vulnerable time. They'll hit you from behind and avoid a drawn out fight. Hit and run, guerrilla style. So the less exposed the better, but those shiny backpacks may interest them as well.
I would definitely brake out the long gun whenever we would set up shop somewhere. Locked and loaded.
Just some random thoughts.
Luke,
You are correct, I am a dumbass...not sure what measurments I initially saw....
I stand by the idea, messenger style bag, just a larger one :)
I'm testing a sub 2000 in Glock 9mm flavor right now. So far-so good reliability wise.
I note that this little gun fits nicely in a smaller Nike book-bag style shoulder bag I use quite often, with three 31 round mags and a 17 rounder in the folded gun.
This would seem to be a decent choice for very low profile long gun carry.
PA PATRIOT
04-15-10, 11:00
I'm testing a sub 2000 in Glock 9mm flavor right now. So far-so good reliability wise.
I note that this little gun fits nicely in a smaller Nike book-bag style shoulder bag I use quite often, with three 31 round mags and a 17 rounder in the folded gun.
This would seem to be a decent choice for very low profile long gun carry.
Been using the same for years now and I have no complaints other then accuracy falls off after 100yds but I can still make hits to 150yds in a pinch on 14"x16" inch plates. Check out the little custom nylon case they make for the Sub-2000 its a perfect fit and blends nicely looking like a small web-book case.
Well, my sub 2000 has so far gone 500 rounds of various ball and JHPs in both standard and +P without cleaning and without any stoppages of any kind so far.
This past week I shot both the patrol rifle and pistol qual courses at or range and cleaned them, so the gun is up to those tasks without much difficulty.
I finally did a field strip and wiped down the huge amount of crud on the bolt, lightly oiled, reassembled and fired off another 31 round mag to test and be sure I had the gun back together right.
Since this gun fits in a book bag or any similar sized carry case it opens up some possibilities for filling a niche spot in my armory.
At home I would be a bug-in guy due to circumstances (larger city for my area but not big by any means, I have family here that don't live with me, I am LE and so it would have to be the zombie apocalypse for me to leave anyway, etc.) in my life, but I also road trip often, so I would have to be able to get home to be able to bug-in if I had been away.
I see the sub2000 as a low-profile take in almost anywhere long gun for trips where I don't want the hassle of carrying an obvious rifle or shotgun in and out of my hotel, etc. I can also stash it places I could not stash another long gun if it comes to that.
I like that I can so easily secure this long gun with me when traveling. I hear too many folks give little concern to the security of their guns that get left in a car/truck overnight. Hotel/motel lots are a prime target for folks who break into cars, and not only do I not want to lose one of my guns, I don't want it "on the street" in the hands of a bad guy being used to do bad things to good people.
On foot I could cover ground better with a 4lb long gun than another heavier long gun.
I am mentally and physically ready to walk as far as it takes to get back to where I need to be in a crisis (side note, after WWII my granddad had to walk home, from Oslo Norway to central Germany, so such treks weren't seen as impossible in my growing up experience).
I can carry this gun concealed either under a shirt on a sling or in a book bag or larger ruck, etc.
This gun uses the same mags and ammo as my Glock 9mms, which is a plus in my book.
Anyway, I know this isn't a "real gun", but as I stated in the PCC thread elsewhere; I'd rather gunfight using my M4 than a PCC any day, but I'd MUCH rather gunfight using a PCC than use my pistol if I have the choice.
I intend to test this gun a bit more and see what happens, if it proves reliable as it has been then it's most definitely a keeper.
Weirdly enough, my other road trip gun for some time has been a Mosin-Nagant M38 carbine that I have had for years.
This gun is small, light, fairly accurate for what it is, throws what is without question a real bullet, is easy to stash in the car trunk, looks innocuous (old "Army" rifle, blue steel and wood, doesn't seem as scary to most people),,,,,,,, and I can easily disable the gun by pulling the bolt and taking it with me if I need to leave the rifle in the car (good luck to Homie-G stealing my gun and trying to find a Mosin bolt at Wal-Mart to get it working).
Another option.
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/greygrouptraining/IMG_0394.jpg
http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/greygrouptraining/IMG_0395.jpg
If anyone has seen pictures from the Thailand riots and clashes between protesters and riot police you'll probably have seen guys with messenger like bags shooting firecrackers with a sling shot. Just some food for thought.
Here is something non-tactical, a yoga mat bag.
http://www.lookwithincollection.com/yoga/i/faux-ostrich/faux-ostrich-model.jpg
http://www.shanti-niketan.com/image/shanti_mat_bag.jpg
http://www.shanti-niketan.com/image/chakra_mat_bag.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/470430600_d736c3c93f.jpg
Most of these bags are long enough (~27") to contain a broken down 16" barreled AR. They most likely will need some reinforcement stitches here and there, but it sure is non-tactical. :D
If I had to "Bug Out" it would be down the road, literally less than an 1/8mile from my house. My entire immediate family lives within a 5mile radius and my grandparents have a 7500sqft home. Yes, its huge, yes, they have wealth. My grandma, in her years, is a sort of a pack rat when it comes to canned goods, and other non-perisable food items, plus water bottles. I think this comes from growing up during the Depression years and hording everything they could get their hands on. My family also owns all the surrounding farm land in our area as we farm most of it.
I really have no need to Bug Out. I do carry a "get home bag" in case of emergency while out on the road. I usually keep 72hours of "broken down" MRE's(ie Entrees only) and 2 24oz water bottles and numerous other 12oz bottles in the bag. Also have 100ft of Parachute cord, 2 10x10 camo tarps, a sleeping bag, flashlight, 3 lighters, and 3 extra mags for my G21sf which is my main carry weapon(stays in my car with my Phantom holster and my TLR-1 light attached).
I have debated on keeping a long gun of some kind, maybe a 18in Shotgun and extra ammo but it would be way to cumbersome and just extra weight to carry.
My bag has that much stuff in it as I am usually not alone when traveling and my concern for my passengers is why I have so much extra in my bag.
My bag is the newer issue military ruck(the name has slipped my mind right now I wanna say CF-90 or something like that) so I have plenty of room.
Bugging out of my home is not necessary, as I live in a rural area, and have plenty of family to go to that are close enough by.
Here is something non-tactical, a yoga mat bag.
http://www.lookwithincollection.com/yoga/i/faux-ostrich/faux-ostrich-model.jpg
http://www.shanti-niketan.com/image/shanti_mat_bag.jpg
http://www.shanti-niketan.com/image/chakra_mat_bag.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/470430600_d736c3c93f.jpg
Most of these bags are long enough (~27") to contain a broken down 16" barreled AR. They most likely will need some reinforcement stitches here and there, but it sure is non-tactical. :D
Interesting idea, but the problem is, most of us don't exactly look like grass-eating yoga practitioners :)
If I’m in my truck so is my 12 gauge....
Not even 30 min ago I was leaving my girlfriends and we were standing out by my car. A car-load of gang bangers bumping their music drove by and instantly I had a bad feeling. About 5 min later they drive by going the opposite direction, pull into a driveway and start to turn around. At this point I tell my girlfriend to go inside. Wasting time she asks "why" and now it’s too late so I tell her to get in the car and stay low. I sit in my car and pull my shotgun onto my lap and disengage the safety. (I just knew they were about to pull a drive by). As they began to pass I slightly start to lift my weapon with it still out of sight. While passing one of them yells out "****ING GRINGO!!" and they continue to drive away. This was in a very up-scale neighborhood (unlike mine). These boys were cruising the rich neighborhood looking to start shit..
Outlander Systems
05-31-10, 04:50
If I’m in my truck so is my 12 gauge....
Not even 30 min ago I was leaving my girlfriends and we were standing out by my car. A car-load of gang bangers bumping their music drove by and instantly I had a bad feeling. About 5 min later they drive by going the opposite direction, pull into a driveway and start to turn around. At this point I tell my girlfriend to go inside. Wasting time she asks "why" and now it’s too late so I tell her to get in the car and stay low. I sit in my car and pull my shotgun onto my lap and disengage the safety. (I just knew they were about to pull a drive by). As they began to pass I slightly start to lift my weapon with it still out of sight. While passing one of them yells out "****ING GRINGO!!" and they continue to drive away. This was in a very up-scale neighborhood (unlike mine). These boys were cruising the rich neighborhood looking to start shit..
Add to this the fact that:
1) LE is still active
2) The lights are still on
3) The Homies probably still had chow in their little tummies
Take all those away, and the need for some defensive firepower becomes much much greater.
Hearing about situations like this erodes my laziness on the SBR issue; I need to nut up and fill out some paperwork, and send in the tax.
I’m just glad they didn’t pull a gun...It wouldn’t be easy explaining to my girlfriends family a carload of dead gangbangers outside their house. lol
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