View Full Version : Post YOUR Top 5 Manufacturers and WHY
Sean Price
08-30-09, 21:47
I've read the chart, and I'll be the 1st to admit, I need to read it again and well AGAIN and AGAIN, tell all that makes sense to me..
as of right now I'm going by PURE speculation and what I have discovered in my "online research"
But basically wanted people to post their TOP THREE complete gun manufacturers and WHY they feel they are ranked as such.. #4 and #5 just because I know people will do it anyways...
Here are mine in my "rookie" status and thru all my INTERNET learning...
1. COLT - basically they seem to be WHAT everyone else is compared to.. plus they supply our military, so thats a huge plus.. PLUS they SEEM to be big on product quality and testing of said product. per the chart of course..
2. BCM - besides what the EoF and Chart says.. not really sure why... EXCEPT everyone and their MAMA (on forums ALL OVER the internet) is all about BCM and their HIGH QUALITY product..till two weeks ago and thanks to the internet, read:forums, I had NEVER EVEN heard of BCM.. and I"M from WISCONSIN, which BCM calls homebase, actually they're like 15 min's from my house.. but the chart and EoF and the hundreds of people I assume do not lie.. so yeah thats why their #2 for me..
3. Daniel Defense - Mainly again because EVERYONE on these forums (all over the internet) talk HIGH about DD, but hey the XV and M4 prices are really good from what I understand due to the whats included in them v/s Colt 6920 and 6940... tho the chart says DD uses 4150 CHF whereas COLT and BCM use B-11595E,,,,hmm may have to research that..
4. Noveske - KNOW nothing bout them, EXCEPT everyone always throws that name out...but they seem SUPER PRICEY!!
5. Larue or is it called LWRC or LMT, not sure, but I see that thrown around alot as welll.. something with an L..
NOW before I get crucified.. just know that if I was told to make that list like 4 weeks ago it would be something like this..
1. colt
2. Bushmaster
3. Armalite
4. Stag Arms
5. DPMS or something..
all that was just from hearsay, i.e. what I heard at my local gunshops..
2 weeks ago when I initially started doing research it would have been something like this..
1. Colt
2. Smith and Wesson
3. Bushmaster
4. RRA
5. Stag Arms or Armalite..
SO i'm putting in work.. and I'm almost there..
Its just that I'm greedy and want all 3 rifles at once.. think about it like this.. I have been scraping penny after penny for over FOUR YEARS and now I'm at $3000 and I don't want to wait anymore!! Plus NOW seems to be the TIME to buy, ish is cheap all over! at least at Clyde Armory it is..
so PUT them up fella's but more importantly the WHY's behind how and why you ranked them as such!
THANK YOU!
oNe
p.s. In case ANYONE hasn't seen my other essay long threads.. my wants are simple
1 stock AR-15 basic iron sights and carry handle
1 AR-15 with a RIS, so that I can in the future trick out
1 AK-47 just because $500 for a rifle is NOTHING.. seems STUPID cheap to me!
now deciding make and models is whats killing me.. 2 weeks and still "learning" i mean researching...
voodoo96743
08-30-09, 22:06
Ranking of any sort would be purely subjective based on the ranker's opinions and desires. It's hard to pick a top 5, let alone rank them. And to clear up your confusion; Larue Tactical, LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool), and LWRCI are three different companies that put out very good rifles and accessories. LWRCI only makes piston rifles, which is why they are not on the chart. LMT makes piston and DI rifles. Larue focuses more on precision/designated marksman rifles.
5. Larue or is it called LWRC or LMT, not sure, but I see that thrown around alot as welll.. something with an L..
Probably LMT is what you mean. LWRC makes rifles but they are piston guns (lwrci.com) and Larue makes parts including uppers and lowers but I don't think makes finished guns. LMT is a top tier maker and they make guns.
The guns you're going to see, in shuffling order, from the majority of seasoned members here, is:
Colt
Lewis Machine Tool (LMT)
Sabre Defence (yes, that's actually how its spelled)
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
BCM is brand new to the complete gun list, DD is also brand new. Noveske N4Ls are basically re-branded CMT with really nice barrels and handguards, so stick them wherever you want. Sabre lacks some of the specs that the others include.
Colt, LMT and BCM are gonna be the closest to TDP
"favorites" are realy subjective, and since I dont and havent ever purchased a complete gun, it's hard for me to rank them as complete guns.
SWATcop556
08-31-09, 03:39
The guns you're going to see, in shuffling order, from the majority of seasoned members here, is:
Colt
Lewis Machine Tool (LMT)
Sabre Defence (yes, that's actually how its spelled)
BCM
Daniel Defense
Noveske
BCM is brand new to the complete gun list, DD is also brand new. Noveske N4Ls are basically re-branded CMT with really nice barrels and handguards, so stick them wherever you want. Sabre lacks some of the specs that the others include.
Colt, LMT and BCM are gonna be the closest to TDP
"favorites" are realy subjective, and since I dont and havent ever purchased a complete gun, it's hard for me to rank them as complete guns.
Agreed. I build my rifles. The list above is a good representation of what will be suggested. Mine would be as follows for an off-the-rack quality fighting rifle.
1.) BCM
2.) KAC
3.) Colt
4.) LMT
5.) Daniel Defence
I would put Larue and Noveske in the more "custom rifle" section though I love the N4 series.
S&W are doing well but still not quite what I'm looking for. All of my serious door-kickin' kit is BCM (and their kool-aid tastes good :cool:)
kinda off topic but i noticed you mentioned clydes. do you live in ga?
Hello Sean,
There have been some very good suggestions and recommendations provided by very knowledgable members. The only issue I see in your criteria and choices is the fact that it may be difficult to purchase all three of the rifles you would like to have and stay within the $3K budget (no funds for ammo/ accessories, optics, etc.).
Again, as another member stated. Everyone else's opinions are subjective, because in the end it is your needs/ requirements/ and preferences which will prevail. You are problaby just going to have to pull the trigger and make a choice and try-it on for size. I think that is why some have suggested purchasing (1) rifle as a baseline and working forward from there.
I wish you all the best with your purchase and may you enjoy the fruits of your labor and sacrafice.
SkiDevil
P.S. In consideration of your budget requirements, I would buy a BCM complete rifle from Grant or the basic DD AR rifle.
variablebinary
08-31-09, 05:27
Recently the only AR15's that seem to get my attention are LWRC's
Prior to that I was pretty much strictly Colt
If you have been saving for 4 years for this you better check ammo prices if you are considering more than 1 firearm. If you use all of your savings to buy guns you will be left with buying a 20 round box of ammo when you go to the range.
Failure2Stop
08-31-09, 06:37
What do you want it to do and how much are you willing to spend?
While this is the age-old admonishion of m4carb, it is very applicable.
For example- if you want to shoot service rifle competitions you will probably be a lot happier with one of the purpose built guns from BM (yuck) than the beloved 10.5 LMT. If you want to hit steel fast and hard it will be hard to do better than an LaRue or Noveske 18 incher. If you want to do a lot of high density training but are on a limited budget, the S&W 5.45 will be a better choice than an LWRC. If you just want to own an AR, you would probably be just as happy with something manufactured in Taiwan that shoots 6mm plastic balls.
The companies that produce similar quality and performance seem to price very close to each other. There are several companies that have an earned reputation for quality, and have been named already. There are also companies that turn out a better product for certain applications, which command a higher price.
While a Noveske might be cost-effective for me, it might not be for many others. I personally consider Noveske guns to be the epitome of the platform, pimples and all. When it comes to TDP adhering manufacturers, I think it is pretty hard to be able to honestly say that one is any better than the others unless you have experience and depth of knowledge on all of them. When most people make recommendations on these type of guns over others (in the "we build guns right" category) it is usually because the guy happened to accidentally buy something that we here at the snobbiest corner of the internet (:rolleyes:) "approve" of, and has had no personal issue with, or one that has met with previous approval by the board in general. What it boils down to is that most people simply do not shoot 12,000 rounds a year through one gun, let alone 5 different manufacturers' guns. Even then, you are dealing with such low density that making any statement would be much less about the manufacturer than the individual gun.
The best source for info comes from those that either-
a) work on a large number of these guns and can track trends
b) sees a lot of these guns in known round-count events and tracks trends
Taking a Colt/BCM/LMT/DD out to the range semi-annually and blasting through half of a case of ammo might instill the individual owner with some sense of validation, but it doesn't really mean much when it comes to high volume comparison that would be necessary to make a noteworthy comparison.
The top (really the minimum) performers are known and clearly indicated. Pick one, get the right support items, and go get quality training and a lot of bullets to practice with. Stock-piled ammo does nothing for skill increase, bullets spent wisely and with a plan and goal will do you far more benefit than 10X that number hiding in your closet next to your pristine Uber-AR.
Just my perspective.
ColdDeadHands
08-31-09, 06:45
Here's my pick;
1. Noveske
2. LMT
3. KAC
4. BCM
5. Colt
No offense but I've never been a Colt Fanboy (handguns nor long guns)...I'd pick something else that's equal or better rather then Colt, not saying they aren't good.
And my OPINIONS, but they are based on my own experiences. My favorites are carbines I build, plain and simple. But for manufactured rifles they are the following;
Noveske
Daniel Defense
Defensive Edge
LMT
Colt
I own or have owned at 1 time all of the above. I also do not prefer Colts but they do work.
Sean Price
08-31-09, 09:38
Gentleman,
First of All, THANK YOU for taking the time to reply and drop input!
Unfortunately, I do not live in GA, I live in WISCONSIN, one of the two remaining states in the union that doesn't trust its own citizens with the right to carry.. but we're close doyle's not gonna run for reelection, :) OH YEAH!!
THING IS THIS, Since my layoff almost a year ago, I have been unemployed...BUT NOW I have a job on the line.. its practically 99.9999999% good, contingent on my successfulll passing of a drug test and background check...BOTH of which are NOT a problem..
So even if I ONLY buy the rifles today...assuming I get the job, I should have more funds readily available in the near future.. YES they might just be trophy pieces in the beginning but at least their there... and well HAVING the rifles in hand is I think the FIRST BIG STEP towards the end result, i.e. having them "tricked" out to my personal like...
PLUS the other thing is.. seems prices are pretty much at rock bottom now right? I mean if there was a time to buy it would be NOW is my guess... a DD M4 for ONLY $1400 or better yet, the DD XV for $999? I mean the supposably lesser guys like BM and DPMS and RRA's dont even have that good quality rifle for less then $1000 right?
BUT YES, lack of ammo aside, and trick toys, I am HELL BENT on getting all 3 of them at the same time...
SIDES which, the area i live in, near Milwaukee... well NONE of the ranges ALLOW for shooting .223/5.56 ammo anyways.... the closest range that allows it, is about 1.5-2hrs away... so yeah hopefully that kinda shows where I'm coming from..
Trophy pieces aside, I mean I basically want them for plinking and home defense..which apparently the BM's and DPMS and RRA's would suffice.. but according to you guys... the complete DD's or the BCM from grant are PRACTICALLY a steal, price wise v/s those other makes.. so for almost the same price as a BM, DPMS, or RRA I would be getting a FARLY SUPERIOR weapon, so its a no brainer...
now back to the list...
KAC, Sabre Defence, HOLY COW, once again some new ones I never heard of.... and once again NOVESKE right up there.. what is the deal with NOVESKE huh? lot of clout there..
Guys, I appreciate the lists.. but what was more important at least to me.. I wanted to know WHY you ranked each and everyone in the order you ranked them? as much info as you would like, would help me and others SEE HOW and WHY some of these makes get the CLOUT they have..
also I have been to more then 5 guns shops in my area...and even a couple out in the Fort Worth, TX area.. and NONE of these guys mention anyone outside of COLT, BM, DPMS, RRA and S&W....
EVEN in Wisconsin, with BCM only like 15mins from my house....NOT a SINGLE dealer even so much as hinted at them.. they looked at me like a deer in headlights when I asked them to tell me about Daniel Defense...
the INTERNET is my only friend here.. and teacher..
oNe
EVEN in Wisconsin, with BCM only like 15mins from my house....NOT a SINGLE dealer even so much as hinted at them.. they looked at me like a deer in headlights when I asked them to tell me about Daniel Defense...
oNe
There is a reason for this. BCM has exactly two Distributors (with us being one of them).
So you are not going to find BCM at your local gun shops or at gun shows.
BCM is a small operation turning out quality weapons (some of the best actually).
C4
Julius Carbinius
08-31-09, 10:14
What do you want it to do and how much are you willing to spend?
While this is the age-old admonishion of m4carb, it is very applicable.
For example- if you want to shoot service rifle competitions you will probably be a lot happier with one of the purpose built guns from BM (yuck) than the beloved 10.5 LMT. If you want to hit steel fast and hard it will be hard to do better than an LaRue or Noveske 18 incher. If you want to do a lot of high density training but are on a limited budget, the S&W 5.45 will be a better choice than an LWRC. If you just want to own an AR, you would probably be just as happy with something manufactured in Taiwan that shoots 6mm plastic balls.
The companies that produce similar quality and performance seem to price very close to each other. There are several companies that have an earned reputation for quality, and have been named already. There are also companies that turn out a better product for certain applications, which command a higher price.
While a Noveske might be cost-effective for me, it might not be for many others. I personally consider Noveske guns to be the epitome of the platform, pimples and all. When it comes to TDP adhering manufacturers, I think it is pretty hard to be able to honestly say that one is any better than the others unless you have experience and depth of knowledge on all of them. When most people make recommendations on these type of guns over others (in the "we build guns right" category) it is usually because the guy happened to accidentally buy something that we here at the snobbiest corner of the internet (:rolleyes:) "approve" of, and has had no personal issue with, or one that has met with previous approval by the board in general. What it boils down to is that most people simply do not shoot 12,000 rounds a year through one gun, let alone 5 different manufacturers' guns. Even then, you are dealing with such low density that making any statement would be much less about the manufacturer than the individual gun.
The best source for info comes from those that either-
a) work on a large number of these guns and can track trends
b) sees a lot of these guns in known round-count events and tracks trends
Taking a Colt/BCM/LMT/DD out to the range semi-annually and blasting through half of a case of ammo might instill the individual owner with some sense of validation, but it doesn't really mean much when it comes to high volume comparison that would be necessary to make a noteworthy comparison.
The top (really the minimum) performers are known and clearly indicated. Pick one, get the right support items, and go get quality training and a lot of bullets to practice with. Stock-piled ammo does nothing for skill increase, bullets spent wisely and with a plan and goal will do you far more benefit than 10X that number hiding in your closet next to your pristine Uber-AR.
Just my perspective.
Wow. Well said. The whole post. I think your perspective is spot on. Sean are you listening?
I think, and this is my opinion only folks, that the OP may be getting a bit bogged down on his decision making process. Perhaps making things too complicated? I don't know. It almost sounds like (and I'm just guessing here) that he wants the forum members to make the decision for him because he's over analyzed things. Just speculating out loud here, I could be completely off.
I think one of the biggest obstacles here is the need to buy all three guns at once. I'm still not sure of the reason why all three need to be purchased at once other than he's been saving for them for a long time. As others have stated, the current budget will probably not be enough to do all three and still have some money left over for consumables (ammo), some basic but necessary accessories and perhaps some training, unless such items will be obtained outside of the existing budget.
Sean, perhaps you could lighten the load here and work one gun at a time. As F2S suggested, pick a manufacturer and get to work. By going one gun at a time, what you'll learn on the first gun may help you make a better decision on what you want (or NEED) on the second and third guns. While it may be true that gun prices are reasonable now and it's probably a good time to buy, why put all that pressure on yourself to hit three home runs your first three times at bat? If you end up with three guns that don't really suit your needs, it won't matter if you bought them for a good price.
As I said in a previous post, it took me months just to pick out one gun. You're trying to research and purchase three with just a few weeks worth of research. Although this has probably been suggested already, I think it bears repeating. I say break it down and concentrate on one gun at a time. The money you've saved for this isn't going anywhere I assume? If that's the case, you have time to make well informed decisions on what you want. Of the three guns, prioritize which you want first and go from there. Good luck! :)
There's not much to say after F2S's post, but some random thoughts...
While most of the lists cover the quality makers, it should be pointed out that Colt does some things that nobody else does that do set them apart. Their receiver extensions, for example are forged while everyone else's is cast. Email LMT and ask them if they are forged or cast and they'll not only tell you that they are forged but they'll ask you why anyone would want a forged one. Now I'm not saying that everyone needs a forged receiver extension but I am saying that the Chart, and it's list of features, is certainly not the be-all, end-all of lists of what makes for a quality AR. Gas key material is another issue, as is steel used for the bolt itself, quality of springs used in the lower, etc. So while there are a lot of good options out there, I don't think that anyone is hitting every single point that Colt is, and I think that those that have chosen the "fanboy" label to throw at Colt are displaying their own ignorance. It is just my opinion, but if you want the very best "fighting" M4-pattern firearm available on the commercial market, you buy a Colt.
There are, however, features that some people may feel outweigh things like receiver extension material. Features like hammer forged barrels, or midlength gas systems, or integral rails, heavier chrome-lining in a barrel, or the BUIS the guns comes with, etc. Those are all things that you need to educate yourself on and use to make up your own mind.
On the subject of buying three guns at once...
It may have been already addressed, but I'd take one Colt 6920 ($1200), 11 magazines ($120), 2k rounds of ammo ($600), and Aimpoint ($500), a sling ($50),and a three day class from a quality instructor ($500), over three shrubmasters or Rock Rivers anyday. Coincidentally all of the above adds up to $2,970. Use the extra $30 and get a Magpul MOE pistol grip and a gapper to replace the stock A2 grip.
faithmyeyes
08-31-09, 10:41
I'm by no means an SME on this board, but I came into the black rifle world much as you are. For what it's worth, I'll give you my picks.
In case ANYONE hasn't seen my other essay long threads.. my wants are simple
1 stock AR-15 basic iron sights and carry handle
Look at three models: Colt 6920, Daniel Defense XV, BCM Complete M4 (mid-length or carbine). Of those three, only the 6920 comes with the carry handle rather than some other rear iron sight, but they are all flat-top uppers so you could easily swap for a carry handle if that's what you really want. If it were me, I'd go with the BCM mid-length as is and never look back.
1 AR-15 with a RIS, so that I can in the future trick out
I assume that by RIS you mean a rail system of some sort. I wouldn't settle on one of those until you have a good idea exactly what kind of "tricking out" you want to do... and you probably won't know that until you go shoot the gun (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=338676) and figure out what makes sense for you. I'd guess the three most commonly added rail-mount accessories are an optic, a white light, and some sort of vertical foregrip or handstop... but how you'll want them configured depends on your shooting style. For instance, a friend of mine has a nice, efficiently set up build with a light and EOTech that I virtually can't use. Do some hands-on research before you drop the money on extras.
now deciding make and models is whats killing me.. 2 weeks and still "learning" i mean researching...
I did three months worth of study on here and elsewhere before placing an order, and I still don't know much.
Good luck and have fun
fme
Jim Colborn
08-31-09, 11:21
Colt
LMT
Noveske
KAC
BCM
There's not much to say after F2S's post, but some random thoughts...
While most of the lists cover the quality makers, it should be pointed out that Colt does some things that nobody else does that do set them apart. Their receiver extensions, for example are forged while everyone else's is cast. Email LMT and ask them if they are forged or cast and they'll not only tell you that they are forged but they'll ask you why anyone would want a forged one. Now I'm not saying that everyone needs a forged receiver extension but I am saying that the Chart, and it's list of features, is certainly not the be-all, end-all of lists of what makes for a quality AR. Gas key material is another issue, as is steel used for the bolt itself, quality of springs used in the lower, etc. So while there are a lot of good options out there, I don't think that anyone is hitting every single point that Colt is, and I think that those that have chosen the "fanboy" label to throw at Colt are displaying their own ignorance. It is just my opinion, but if you want the very best "fighting" M4-pattern firearm available on the commercial market, you buy a Colt.
There are, however, features that some people may feel outweigh things like receiver extension material. Features like hammer forged barrels, or midlength gas systems, or integral rails, heavier chrome-lining in a barrel, or the BUIS the guns comes with, etc. Those are all things that you need to educate yourself on and use to make up your own mind.
On the subject of buying three guns at once...
It may have been already addressed, but I'd take one Colt 6920 ($1200), 11 magazines ($120), 2k rounds of ammo ($600), and Aimpoint ($500), a sling ($50),and a three day class from a quality instructor ($500), over three shrubmasters or Rock Rivers anyday. Coincidentally all of the above adds up to $2,970. Use the extra $30 and get a Magpul MOE pistol grip and a gapper to replace the stock A2 grip.
I wish I had this advice 6 years ago when I was just starting. And Rob_s does seem to know what he is talking about.
MikeCLeonard
08-31-09, 12:09
1) Colt
2) Noveske
3) LMT
4) BCM
5) Daniel Defense
That being said, my three AR's were chosen for the following reasons:
1) Colt 6921: Because they cannot be considered to be anything but the standard. Colt has been making these for our military for a long time, and for a long time, they have been getting the job done in every environment you can think of and have been doing it well. The barrel may not be the most accurate or toughest when compared to Noveske or something of the like, but it gets it's job done perfectly fine for it's intended use. I just couldn't see my collection not having a Colt included.
2) Noveske N4 w/ Switch-Block: Because they are known for making solid and battle worthy components, but more so because they are known for producing some of the best barrels you can find for the AR15. For my application of this rifle I wanted very high accuracy,reliability, and a good silencer host before all else....and I knew this rifle would fit the bill.
3) Lewis Machine & Tool MRP: Because LMT is also known for making very serious use weapons with very good accuracy. Their internal components are widely used in heavy-use rifles with great success. In this case, I chose the MRP upper platform because I wanted a 9" handguard since my other two rifles had 7" carbine length handguards. I had carbine-training courses in mind when I bought this rifle and wanted the extra hand rail length for different shooting positions and hot-barrel protection. I wanted a barrel that would allow me to not only switch lengths, but also easily replace once they were worn out...as I planned on using this rifle for training and would put the most rounds downrange with it.
In the end, I have no doubt that any of the rifles being suggested will serve you equally well. Now that you have these big names to chose from, your main goal should be to tailor each rifle for a specific need or type of shooting you want to use it for. Most of the veteran shooters on this board will determine their specific need/intended use for a rifle long before picking a company to go with...And I mean VERY specific needs. AR's are like golf-clubs, with each different intended use can come a completely different setup and the shooters here have the experience to tell them what will or will not work for them.
The only trouble I see with what you're doing is that you are trying to chose all these rifles at once...without having the experience to tell you what you're really going to need/want in the end. I'm 90% confident that if you buy 3 rifles without doing more thinking/research/shooting, you are going to end up selling or trading at least one of them if you stay in this hobby for very long. With all these top of the line manufacturers, its not about deciding who is the best, but who makes a particular configuration that suits you best.
Good luck and have fun in your process!!
-Mike
Buy a quality AR-15 and an AK-47 (Maadi's are nice). I just built a BCM mid-length upper on an LRB lower with a Stag LPK. Magpul MOE grip and CTR stock, BCM BCG, RRA handguard, and Troy rear BUIS. AR-15 cost about $1100 to put together and is rock solid. I also really like my RRA mid-length with 2 stage trigger. It's a sharp shooter with M193 or M855 and has a detachable carry handle. The BCM has an Aimpoint. Overall, I tend to find RRA rifles to be reliable and super accurate as all get out. They are truely 1 MOA rifles!!!!!! The BCM is top notch though and if you want a 1/7 twist I would get a mid-length upper, BCG, charging handle, and Troy rear BUIS from BCM and a complete RRA lower for $300. Send the trigger to Ben Springfield for a touch up. I like two-stage triggers, most here do not.
I like BCM and RRA. I am sure Noveske, Colt, and the like are great, but all you need is a great barrel and a solid BCG and your rifle will be all you want it to be. Some of the stuff on the chart is meaningless. M4 feed ramps, who gives a shit!!!! It's a semi-auto rifle and I have never had a single FTF in 10+ years of shooting the AR-15.
You want accuracy = great barrel. You want reliability = great BCG. Most of the stuff that goes wrong with an AR-15 is due to the BCG. Not extracting, broken extractors, broken bolt, etc. A chrome-lined chamber and bore is a plus if you plan to put 1500 rounds through it without a cleaning, ie a carbine course. A BCM upper will be fantastic for your needs.
Ridge_Runner_5
08-31-09, 12:30
1. LaRue - small time shop with big time actions. The owner himself will take calls and make sure you are happy with your product. Also donated I think $12,000 to a California gun rights group with the promise of a matching donation every year hereafter.
2. Whatever
Some of the stuff on the chart is meaningless.
To be clear, it's meaningless to you, for your applications. Which is the entire point of the E of F, so that people can figure out for themselves what is meaningful and meaningless for their own use.
M4 feed ramps, who gives a shit!!!! It's a semi-auto rifle and I have never had a single FTF in 10+ years of shooting the AR-15.
First, and just to get this out there, we all know lots of people that have spent x number of years with y platform that have fired a whopping 200 rounds over that time frame. Time is meaningless. Round count and the type of shooting done are what matters.
Second, this is again your own opinion. I have had multiple failures to feed with non-ramped guns when shooting soft-point ammunition. That same ammunition fed just fine in at least two 20" guns. That tells me a lot of things, but the biggest thing it tells me is that I'm going to always opt for M4 ramps on my own a6" and under ARs. What you, or anyone else does, is of no concern to me at all.
M4 feed ramps were not a solution looking for a problem. They were designed to reduce the amount of FTF's. They do make a difference. Any gun I had to defend my life with would have feed ramps if at all possible.
Buy a quality AR-15 and an AK-47 (Maadi's are nice). I just built a BCM mid-length upper on an LRB lower with a Stag LPK. Magpul MOE grip and CTR stock, BCM BCG, RRA handguard, and Troy rear BUIS. AR-15 cost about $1100 to put together and is rock solid. I also really like my RRA mid-length with 2 stage trigger. It's a sharp shooter with M193 or M855 and has a detachable carry handle. The BCM has an Aimpoint. Overall, I tend to find RRA rifles to be reliable and super accurate as all get out. They are truely 1 MOA rifles!!!!!! The BCM is top notch though and if you want a 1/7 twist I would get a mid-length upper, BCG, charging handle, and Troy rear BUIS from BCM and a complete RRA lower for $300. Send the trigger to Ben Springfield for a touch up. I like two-stage triggers, most here do not.
I like BCM and RRA. I am sure Noveske, Colt, and the like are great, but all you need is a great barrel and a solid BCG and your rifle will be all you want it to be. Some of the stuff on the chart is meaningless. M4 feed ramps, who gives a shit!!!! It's a semi-auto rifle and I have never had a single FTF in 10+ years of shooting the AR-15.
You want accuracy = great barrel. You want reliability = great BCG. Most of the stuff that goes wrong with an AR-15 is due to the BCG. Not extracting, broken extractors, broken bolt, etc. A chrome-lined chamber and bore is a plus if you plan to put 1500 rounds through it without a cleaning, ie a carbine course. A BCM upper will be fantastic for your needs.
M4 feedramps do in fact serve a very big purpose and are a mandatory option on a FIGHTING weapon.
The barrel also adds to reliability (FYI).
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24003&highlight=feed+ramps
C4
You mentioned it's use for home defense. Most here would probably tell you that a red dot sight, white light and sling to be mandatory items. This may sound like an echo, but many of the other guys are giving the best advice available. One quality carbine (several quality carbines have already been listed), mags, ammo, training. Add to this the forementioned red dot sight, light, BUIS (back up iron sight), sling, a rail of some sort to mount the light (if the one you choose does not already have one) and the possibility of a vfg (vertical fore grip) and any other items you may eventually want and your budget will be spent.
Think about it.
Good luck.
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
There's not much to say after F2S's post, but some random thoughts...
While most of the lists cover the quality makers, it should be pointed out that Colt does some things that nobody else does that do set them apart. Their receiver extensions, for example are forged while everyone else's is cast. Email LMT and ask them if they are forged or cast and they'll not only tell you that they are forged but they'll ask you why anyone would want a forged one. Now I'm not saying that everyone needs a forged receiver extension but I am saying that the Chart, and it's list of features, is certainly not the be-all, end-all of lists of what makes for a quality AR. Gas key material is another issue, as is steel used for the bolt itself, quality of springs used in the lower, etc. So while there are a lot of good options out there, I don't think that anyone is hitting every single point that Colt is, and I think that those that have chosen the "fanboy" label to throw at Colt are displaying their own ignorance. It is just my opinion, but if you want the very best "fighting" M4-pattern firearm available on the commercial market, you buy a Colt.
There are, however, features that some people may feel outweigh things like receiver extension material. Features like hammer forged barrels, or midlength gas systems, or integral rails, heavier chrome-lining in a barrel, or the BUIS the guns comes with, etc. Those are all things that you need to educate yourself on and use to make up your own mind.
On the subject of buying three guns at once...
It may have been already addressed, but I'd take one Colt 6920 ($1200), 11 magazines ($120), 2k rounds of ammo ($600), and Aimpoint ($500), a sling ($50),and a three day class from a quality instructor ($500), over three shrubmasters or Rock Rivers anyday. Coincidentally all of the above adds up to $2,970. Use the extra $30 and get a Magpul MOE pistol grip and a gapper to replace the stock A2 grip.
Well said Rob.
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
how many people even know what a gas key is? not every proficient carbine shooter has a strong working knowledge of the importance of this.
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
you haven't? i guess that explains this post... if you've never popped a bolt, you haven't put enough rounds through any AR to have enough experience to question anyone here.
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
bushmaster only just recently started- oly dremels theirs in, if they do them at all, DPMS, RRA, stag, etc.- none of these do.
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
at the very least, 4150 steel keeps fire accurate about twice as long as 4140 in a hot barrel. chrome lining wears away soon enough, then you're left with raw steel. gas port erosion is a very common and real problem, 4150 erodes a lot slower... why am i wasting my time?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
have you ever heard of wiki****inpedia? look it up.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune
i'm a vet, you you little ****stick- and so are most senior members here. the others are active duty or REAL "soldiers of fortune."
seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
didnt you get banned like forever ago?
all you need to do is some reading, and i'm sure you'd find yourself embarassed of this, and other, posts.
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
I somehow do not lend as much gravity to your esteemed gun store fondling as the hundreds of thousands of hours spent by the membership here spent in serious training and actual combat situations.
To quote a wise man "Don't let your ass overload you mouth."
I think that if you're somewhat like me...in that you're not LEO or mil, but want a good home defense gun and are an enthusiast (taking classes, weekly range sessions), and have the irresistible urge to "trick out" your gun, you can't go wrong with a DDM4.
It comes with pretty much all you need, as a total "tricked out" package. Get a Aimpoint T1 or H1 w/ Larue mount package from Grant, one of the best combo prices out there, and slap a TLR-1 at the 12 o'clock on the FSP rail, and you're done. Spend the rest on mags, sling, and ammo.
Trust me, you DO NOT want to purchase 3 guns at once. My first was a MP15 that I learned so much shooting and modifying. I've researched and made a lot of gear purchases that I found I didn't like after running them. My next AR was a DDM4. I'm sure I will get more, but each gun helps you learn and adjust your views. Listen to most of these guys here who are in the know (not me) and re-read posts from people like Rob and F2S.
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
So which do you own, Olympic Arms or DPMS?
;)
Army Chief
09-01-09, 05:11
THE GOOD:
I've been a Colt owner for 25+ years, and have more recently made several investments with Noveske Rifleworks. More will surely follow.
THE BAD:
I do have a high degree of confidence in BCM, KAC and LMT, based upon their respective professional reputations, but simply have no current experience base from which to draw.
THE UGLY:
I have not, and will not, spend money on hobby-grade AR pattern rifles for the same reason that I am loathe to buy consumer-grade hand tools. Sooner or later, you're inevitably going to end up wishing that you had gotten it right the first time -- invariably at a point in time when it is least convenient to be dealing with that kind of remorse.
AC
I have not, and will not, spend money on hobby-grade AR pattern rifles for the same reason that I am loathe to buy consumer-grade hand tools.
I guess tools and guns are a good comparison. Most people that use tools know the quality tool makers, some chose to buy them, some dont.
Personally it depends on the tool on what I buy. I go to Harbor freight ALL the time, and I have tools from there that I beat the crap out of and they work just as good as something from Snap-on that would have cost 100 times more. I also refuse to buy drills from Dewalt, and will buy something that costs half as much because I know they will end up lasting the same amount of time usually. Knowing I can buy another brand new drill after a year with what I saved, or buy alot of extra batteries makes sense to me since I am at the same cost IF the drill I buy breaks.
It all comes down to what you are going to use it for and how much you are going to use it. Buying a Colt that sits in a safe all year except for 2 range trips a year with 200 rounds, makes as much sense as buying a Dewalt drill to put in 2 drywall screws.
John_Wayne777
09-01-09, 07:08
You wannabe soldiers of fortune
Having an opinion on what makes a suitable weapon for most people is fine.
...but if you can't find a way to express that opinion that doesn't involve insulting people who may have different requirements than you do, your future here will be very short.
1. LaRue Tactical - Top notch quality product, out of this world customer service.
2. Noveske - Best barrel I've ever owned, hands down. Great customer service.
3. Trijicon - Their optics just work well for me. I've never used their CS but I hear it's great.
4. Magpul - Same reasons as LaRue. ;)
I guess I don't really have a #5 . . . . :eek:
ColdDeadHands
09-01-09, 07:45
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
I'm somewhat of a bullshitter myself but sometimes I like to listen to a real Pro like you...never know when I can learn something new. :rolleyes:
Army Chief
09-01-09, 08:15
1. LaRue Tactical - Top notch quality product, out of this world customer service.
2. Noveske - Best barrel I've ever owned, hands down. Great customer service.
3. Trijicon - Their optics just work well for me. I've never used their CS but I hear it's great.
4. Magpul - Same reasons as LaRue. ;)
I guess I don't really have a #5 . . . . :eek:
I think the OP was actually asking about complete rifle manufacturers, which rules some of these out, but I'm equally enthusiastic about Nos. 3 & 4, and probably would be making space for DD on my earlier list ... just haven't yet seen one.
AC
faithmyeyes
09-01-09, 10:11
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense.
I don't think that's what anyone is saying. What they're saying is that if you want a meaningful analysis of which make of rifle consistently demonstrates its quality, you have to look at a lot of guns that have had the shit beat out of them over time to see failure trends. That gives you an idea of who's making the strongest guns on average, and gives you the opportunity to buy a gun from a manufacturer with a demonstrated reputation for quality. Whether you beat the shit out of your particular gun is irrelevant.
Some guns have got to be stress tested, though, or nobody knows anything.
;)
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
The devil is in the details. Minor things equal to one major problem.
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
While you might be ok with staking a gas key, I have seen people either afraid of doing this or have screwed it up so badly that they had to replace their entire gas key.
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
If a bolt is not shot peened, it is not the end of the world to me. Yes, I have seen many bolts broken. Remember that the bolt is a wear item and ALL bolts will break (eventually).
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
There are some out there. There are also different levels of quality regarding these. Some manufacturers dremel tool'd in the feed ramps (RRA). This is a no go in my book.
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
This extends the life of the barrel and has nothing to do with proof loads.
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
What can't you figure out? Is simple, the TDP calls out for testing of the bolt and barrel. This means that you use a proof load to stress the bolt and barrel. You then MPI both parts. If you find a fault, that part is removed.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense.
Stop the bus. First, you are new and might have failed to realize what forum you are on. This isn't BARFCOM. ;) This forum is FULL of active duty trigger pullers, LE, ex-Military and Civy's that train heavily.
As a general rule, you want to run at least 500rds through an AR to break it and catch any major issues. I personally don't trust an AR till I have about 3K through it (YMMV).
For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Correct Sherlock. Everyon here is aware of this. I am not sure who is "beating the chit ouf of their rifle." If you classify "training" with ones HD weapon as "beating the chit out of it", you would be mistaken.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
This is correct (to a point). The top companies do in fact make critical items in house. They then spec out (provide prints and standards) to the companies that make their other parts.
The difference between say Colt and Oly is that Colt sends back parts that do not meet their standards and Oly keeps them. I also know (for instance) that Oly specs different steel in their bolts (read cheaper).
There are more than one barrel manufacturer (FYI). Let's pretend though that there is only one. You do realize that you can spec the barrel steel, chamber and twist rate to them right???? So RRA can say that they want a 1/9 twist barrel with a .223 chamber, no chrome in 4140. Colt could order barrels in 1/7 twist, 556 NATO chamber, chromed in CMV.
So no, all AR's are not created equal.
C4
You wannabe soldiers of fortune ...
Either the mods are getting soft or they've mellowed a whole lot. In other parts of the cyber universe you'd have been gone.
Parabellum9x19mm
09-01-09, 11:32
my personal top six (sorry i couldn't do just 5)
1) Noveske
2) BCM
3) Colt
4) LMT
5) Sabre
6) DD
the reason KAC isn't on my list is because i have no experience with their products.
i would love to try out a SR-15. no question in my mind that its top notch, but i can't rate KAC weapons if i haven't even so much as seen one in person.
Not putting LaRue on my list either, because i'm only comparing weapons with chrome lined barrels
but obviously, LT makes a fantastic product.
Dirk Williams
09-01-09, 12:03
I can't tell you guys how much I've learned from you all. I own several M-4's of the garden variety. I've had most for over 10 years, and don't shoot them much. According to the scale they are bottom feeders and not worth mentioning.
I have been lerking on this site trying to learn more about the M-4' "Long Range is my thing". I had wanted to start this 3 gun stuff for fun and education. I built, rather had built what I thought was going to be a decent rifle.
Stag upper/lower,Magpul stuff, Match grade bolt, 300.00 16 'barrel and a few other things along with an eotech and trijacon night sights inserted into the pop up sights.
Looks like I'm gonna start over from scratch. Noveske is in my near future.
Respectfully, DDW
FrankRochester
09-01-09, 16:37
You wannabe soldiers of fortune
http://www.unblogged.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/180px-tool-logo-early.jpg
Kentucky Cop
09-01-09, 20:43
1COLT
2NOVESKE
3DANIEL DEFENSE
4LMT
5SMITH AND WESSON 15T
......my rookie thoughts.:cool:
Jay Cunningham
09-01-09, 20:46
Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.
A picture can tell a 1000 words....even more with a caption!!!! :p
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc6/hammonje/67724_m.gif
yallknowho
09-01-09, 21:25
buying three similar rifles at once is a little silly. Like other people have said, get one to start with. Over time you will realize what you like and want on your rifle.
Dirk Williams
09-01-09, 21:56
WOW and on our first date. Now that is truly funny. My new friend must have had a really bad day. I knew it earlier today when he PMed me and called me a wannbee Soldier Of Fortune. That was truly amusing, I'm still smiling about that one.
I like the tool even better. clever, very clever. Good night Frank.
Respectfully, DDW.
From my personal experience this is how I would rank them. The only ones I don't own or haven't in the past is DD and Sabre. I included them based on specs, what I've seen, and reputation.
1. KAC - Extended barrel/bolt life, intermediate gas length makes it very smooth
2. Noveske - Most accurate I've owned, arguably the best barrel in the business
3. Colt - Standard by which all ARs are judged, extremely durable.
4. BCM - Basically a Colt with a different rollmark and top notch customer service.
5. Was LMT but I haven't been as impressed with them lately so I would probably give the nod to Daniel Defense here or maybe Sabre.
*I also didn't include LaRue because I've never seen one. I've heard the accuracy is pretty impressive though.
After studying on this forum:
I went this route
Colt 6940
Colt Accurized 24inch HBAR
LMT Defender
Hybrid RRA lower / Noveske Upper
And yes, I do have a complex about the last one, there is no therapy that can get you comfortable with that combo. Its like holding the rat in your hand. However, Im all done for quite a while. This was a pricy forum for me to learn about. NO MAS!
So which do you own, Olympic Arms or DPMS?
;)
Oh now that made me gut laugh!
Spot on-Bingo.
Thank you and good night. LMAO
Middlelength
09-18-09, 00:00
This is actually an interesting thread. I'll offer my opinion:
1. Knights Armament - If price is no object, I'd take their rifles above any other. Their products work and they have led the industry in more ways than any other company in the last 15 years.
2. Colt - Koolaid nonwithstanding, they make great products that are still considered the industry standard.
3. LMT - Colt quality at much better prices. I believe this is the place to start with a rifle unless you are trying to get in at the cheapest possible price point. They hold their values very well and are of tremendous quality.
4. FN - They make the majority of the small arms used by the U.S. Government, and the quality of those products speaks legions about this company. If they ever release an M4 / AR15 to the public, it WILL be the rifle to have at a price that is probably 10-15% cheaper than Colt.
5. DTI (Del-ton) - at their price point, they offer a better value than any other company, bar none. Their kits are obscenely cheap, well made, and use quality parts. The only drawback to these rifles is a low resale value, but this shouldn't be shocking since they didn't cost hardly anything to begin with. I've found their quality to be nearly on par with many of the top tier companies, and I'd choose a DTI over some of the more common manufactuers like Stag, RRA, DPMS, etc.
I'm one of the only people to not mention BCM. And I won't, not for a few years at least. The hysteria surrounding their products seems ridiculous and I believe stems mostly from the fact that they had quality products in stock for decent prices at a time when no other companies did. They simply haven't produced enough products to prove whether their standards will hold. They haven't been around long enough to judge whether their products will retain value as well as others like Noveske, KAC, Colt, and LMT do. Do they make good rifles? Of course. But so do a large number of other companies, from Charles Daly to Daniel Defense. Those companies are also too new to judge the lasting quality of their products.
Right now is a great time to be a fan of the black rifle, with what seems to be more companies jumping into the fray every day. We just need more to make 5.45 rifles.
After studying on this forum:
I went this route
Colt 6940
Colt Accurized 24inch HBAR
LMT Defender
Hybrid RRA lower / Noveske Upper
And yes, I do have a complex about the last one, there is no therapy that can get you comfortable with that combo. Its like holding the rat in your hand. However, Im all done for quite a while. This was a pricy forum for me to learn about. NO MAS!
I'm in the same boat as you with that last combo. I have an LMT lower with LMT 2 stage and SOPMOD, but I bought a DSA ZM4 upper for my rifle because I needed something cheap to get my rifle up while I figure out what I really want...BCM mid or the like...Although I am going to be using the BCM FA BCG and BCM GF CH. lol
While I've handled all of your major manufacturers products, I can't speak with enough authority to make my own list of five. Instead I'll give my recommendations on what I've actually got a good amount of range time.
1. Colt - This is the gun that got me into it all back during the days of ROTC down at UofA. Well made gun and is the standard in its own right. While I won't say it's the nicest feeling or most accurate rifle out there, it's a damn fine reliable and well built weapon.
2. LMT - Call me a fan of the Koolaid, but I love my 16" LMT defender with the MRP system. It's accurate, barrel changes are a breeze, very sturdy, fit and finish on my individual rifle is probably the best I've ever seen. Did I mention that it's accurate? Sub MOA through my ACOG no problem. The warranty on this rifle tells you that this company stands behind its products.
3.S&W - Well built rifle and their warranty and customer service is amazing. They are the industry standard.
I've had time with the RRA and a Bushmaster...not going to lie, they are not my cup of tea. You hold a solid rifle in your hand like the Colt or LMT and and then handle these makes and you'll understand what I mean. Same goes when you shoot these rifles back to back. You CAN feel the difference in quality. Don't get me wrong, for most people these rifles would be fine. But for a rifle I'd put my life on the line with, you bet your ass I'm going for quality.
I'm one of the only people to not mention BCM. And I won't, not for a few years at least. The hysteria surrounding their products seems ridiculous and I believe stems mostly from the fact that they had quality products in stock for decent prices at a time when no other companies did. They simply haven't produced enough products to prove whether their standards will hold. They haven't been around long enough to judge whether their products will retain value as well as others like Noveske, KAC, Colt, and LMT do. Do they make good rifles? Of course. But so do a large number of other companies, from Charles Daly to Daniel Defense. Those companies are also too new to judge the lasting quality of their products.
.
I will join you in this corner for now. I simply cannot get on this bandwagon right now. While everything appears to be very well built and the reviews are glowing from everyone, I think this one will require time to tell how well they stack up. If initial quality is any indication, I think they will do well, but I think it'd be a while before I could recommend them for someone's first AR. Have a good friend who's putting together a midlength with a number of BCMs parts...Just waiting on him to track down a Vltor VIS upper as that's what he wants. Might be able to speak a little better on them once it all gets done, but right now I think that part of the current talk about BCM is being fueled by the bandwagon.
After reading all the stuff on this forum and fondling all the different rifles in gun shops, I'm at a total loss as to why there seems to be strong opinions toward certain brands of rifles. As far as I can see, they are all the same with some minor differences. You guys seem to place a lot of stock on minor stuff like:
1. Gas key staking-easy to fix if you don't think it's right
2. Shot peening the bolt-is this to cover up abusive machining? Has anyone ever experienced a failed bolt?
3. M4 feed ramps-my Bushy and Rock river both have them. Haven't seen any rifles without
4. Barrel steel- if the bore is chrome plated, who cares? Are you going to shoot proof loads consistently?
5. Pressure tested barrels and bolts?-I just can't figure out how or why.
You wannabe soldiers of fortune seem to think that a rifle should be fired 10,000 to 20,000 times to make sure it's safe for home defense. For your information, every shot you take is one closer to failure. These are mechanical devices, and every gun will fail at some point. Why anyone would beat the s--t out of his rifle, then feel that it's safe to use for protection, is walking in quicksand.
Most manufacturers are nothing but assemblers. They buy parts from various vendors and put them together. There are only 2 barrel manufacturers, 4 or 5 receiver houses, and who knows where the springs and pins come from. Get real.
Aaaaarrrrgggghh!!!!
Can somebody please help me revive all the brain cells that DIED while reading the collective bullshit written above. Proof that stupidity is alive and well.
I don't remember anybody ever asking your opinion, unlike some of the other posters.
P.S. Thanks for all the valuable input from "qualified" individuals on this forum.
Grateful Cop
30in1- Just knowing better should help revive a few cells. We can even learn from that post somehow. Like you said, proof.
So which do you own, Olympic Arms or DPMS?
;)
Hahahahahaahahaha! Made my day.
Seriously though, I think we answered this question for you in this thread, starting around page 5:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36096
But, since I'm bored, I'll spend your $3000 for you.
BCM Midlength, plus ship and $50 transfer: $1194
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
$1806 left
Aimpoint T1 in a Larue mount: $640
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=APT1LTMICRO
$1166 left
Blue Force Gear Vickers padded 2 point sling: $49
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=VCAS-200-AA&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBFGE
$1117 left
10 Magpul non-window Pmags: $142
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=PMAG
$975 left
Shipping for the above items: $10
$965 left
Magpul Dynamics - Art of the Tactical Carbine, Vol. 1&2: $98 shipped
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Magpul+DVD+DYN001&CartID=1
$867 left
M193 Prvi Partizan 5.56, 1000 rds: $359 plus shipping
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=7169&dir=18|830|845
$508 left
Now you have $500 left to take a class, get more ammo, whatever. The only thing your set-up would be missing is a light. Get some practice in, take a class, before you decide what light you want to put on it. There's no reason to overthink this. What I listed above is exactly what I wish I would have done way before I bought my first DPMS.
This is actually an interesting thread. I'll offer my opinion:
1. Knights Armament - If price is no object, I'd take their rifles above any other. Their products work and they have led the industry in more ways than any other company in the last 15 years.
2. Colt - Koolaid nonwithstanding, they make great products that are still considered the industry standard.
3. LMT - Colt quality at much better prices. I believe this is the place to start with a rifle unless you are trying to get in at the cheapest possible price point. They hold their values very well and are of tremendous quality.
4. FN - They make the majority of the small arms used by the U.S. Government, and the quality of those products speaks legions about this company. If they ever release an M4 / AR15 to the public, it WILL be the rifle to have at a price that is probably 10-15% cheaper than Colt.
5. DTI (Del-ton) - at their price point, they offer a better value than any other company, bar none. Their kits are obscenely cheap, well made, and use quality parts. The only drawback to these rifles is a low resale value, but this shouldn't be shocking since they didn't cost hardly anything to begin with. I've found their quality to be nearly on par with many of the top tier companies, and I'd choose a DTI over some of the more common manufactuers like Stag, RRA, DPMS, etc.
Right now is a great time to be a fan of the black rifle, with what seems to be more companies jumping into the fray every day. We just need more to make 5.45 rifles.
This post really is kind of silly. #5 Del-Ton???????? Really???????? Every heard of say ANY of the following companies:
1. BCM
2. DD
3. S&W
4. Noveske
5. CD
Then you list a company that does not even sell to the commercial market! :rolleyes:
I'm one of the only people to not mention BCM. And I won't, not for a few years at least. The hysteria surrounding their products seems ridiculous and I believe stems mostly from the fact that they had quality products in stock for decent prices at a time when no other companies did. They simply haven't produced enough products to prove whether their standards will hold. They haven't been around long enough to judge whether their products will retain value as well as others like Noveske, KAC, Colt, and LMT do. Do they make good rifles? Of course. But so do a large number of other companies, from Charles Daly to Daniel Defense. Those companies are also too new to judge the lasting quality of their products.
The "hysteria" on BCM stuff is for many reason. Here is a list for you:
1. They follow the TDP.
2. QC is VERY high.
3. No corners cut EVER!
4. Excellent CS.
The reason why BCM "standards" will ALWAYS hold is because the owner (Paul) WILL NEVER ACCEPT second best!!
Here is a little known story about Paul that most do not know. He received a bunch of barrels in last year that were not performing to his accuracy standards. Now these barrels would have been 100% accepted per the TDP, but he refused them all. Now that doesn't seem like a big deal until you find out that he ate the cost on them.
Most any other manufacturer would have simply passed them onto the consumer.
C4
The_War_Wagon
09-18-09, 09:46
HK416
POF-USA
LWRC
LMT
Addax
We're comparing piston AR's right? :D
NOW donning fireproof kevlar... http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/sSc_hiding2.gif
For a affordably priced rifle, I've always been impressed with the fit and finish on the Armalite rifles. At the risk of falling out of the "cool guy" crowd, what has been the experience with them?
Not all of us can afford a Noveske or Knights (as much as i really want) or agree with the politics of S&W (or in my case got screwed by their customer service).
For a affordably priced rifle, I've always been impressed with the fit and finish on the Armalite rifles. At the risk of falling out of the "cool guy" crowd, what has been the experience with them?
Not all of us can afford a Noveske or Knights (as much as i really want) or agree with the politics of S&W (or in my case got screwed by their customer service).
I do not think anyone is telling you have to buy a Noveske or KAC to be "cool."
BCM, LMT (for instance) can be had for around $1k. At this price, there is ZERO reason to buy an Armalite.
C4
Here is a little known story about Paul that most do not know. He received a bunch of barrels in last year that were not performing to his accuracy standards. Now these barrels would have been 100% accepted per the TDP, but he refused them all. Now that doesn't seem like a big deal until you find out that he ate the cost on them.
Most any other manufacturer would have simply passed them onto the consumer.
C4
That is pretty impressive, I'm glad to hear that.
I do not think anyone is telling you have to buy a Noveske or KAC to be "cool."
C4
If buying a Noveske would make me cool, I'd buy one. :eek:
I showed my son a picture of a Noveske and I asked him if it would make me cool and he said, "Dad, you'll always be a dork."
With the help of a lot of reading here and on another forum with folks whose input I respect, I picked up a DDM4, a H-1, and a TLR-1. The ammo stock pile continues to grow. Regular shooting to keep my basic marksmanship at a decent level, and regular work at home and with a physical therapist to make sure I'm physically able to take part in a carbine class this spring.:)
Of course after shooting the DD for a bit, I did some horse trading of some older guns and knives and am finishing up a 2nd carbine. They are addictive.
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