Magwell grip or Vfg for rifle length???Pros - Cons ???

[BLACK LION]

I used the search function to see if this had been discussed but I didnt find anything. Please forgive me if I lit a fire that had already been put out before...


I see alot of mixed "grips" and the two that have stood out the most are the magwell grip and the use of the vertical foregrip.... of course there are different variations of both that have spawned...

Different people advocate different things so I am trying to find out what the pros and cons are using both the magwell grip with thumb above the barrrel and pushed forward or Vfg with thumb above the barrel and pushed forward...

This is using a rifle length stock/buffer tube and midlength handguard...

I can see the benefit of a vfg grip over the mwg when using a car stock/buffer tube but I run a rifle stock and have a hard time noticing the difference in rigidity and stability between the 2...

thanks

[Derek_Connor]

I used the search function to see if this had been discussed but I didnt find anything. Please forgive me if I lit a fire that had already been put out before...


I see alot of mixed "grips" and the two that have stood out the most are the magwell grip and the use of the vertical foregrip.... of course there are different variations of both that have spawned...

Different people advocate different things so I am trying to find out what the pros and cons are using both the magwell grip with thumb above the barrrel and pushed forward or Vfg with thumb above the barrel and pushed forward...

This is using a rifle length stock/buffer tube and midlength handguard...

I can see the benefit of a vfg grip over the mwg when using a car stock/buffer tube but I run a rifle stock and have a hard time noticing the difference in rigidity and stability between the 2...

thanks

go out and download/research 3 popular AR15/Carbine drills.

Run each one with the mag-well grip and one with the VFG/Rail Grip.

See if there is any significant difference in accuracy, shot placement, follow up shots, time, etc...

I'll put a bottle of bud heavy on it that you will shoot better with your hand further out on the rail/handguard..

[Failure2Stop]

Good shooters will shoot better with a fuller extension of the support arm.
There are many more considerations that go into perfecting support hand grip than what makes the difference between a good shooter and a great shooter.
Wearing armor, stock length, rail attachments, optics, etc will all influence how the gun balances and performs.
That being said, a high grip (with or without VFG), extended to the proper position with the proper amount of rearward pressure will result in better shooting and more solid target to target transitions.
Frankly, to truly understand these aspects you will need to find a good trainer and learn.

[LOKNLOD]

Take this for what its worth, as I am no expert, but I believe this is rooted firmly in the physics of the matter, regardless of operational experience:

Shooting from the magwell grip, is like writing while holding a pencil by the eraser. Small adjustments at the grip make larger adjustments at the muzzle, and the longer the barrel the worse this effect is. You have less precise control and this will be especially apparent when driving the gun between multiple targets. You'll be able to start/stop the motion of rifle relative to the target much more exactly. It will also give you better control of recoil and muzzle rise. It's all about leverage.

To have the best control of anything, you're going to want to choose a control point as close it as possible. You grab a pencil near the tip, not the eraser. You grab a waterhose at the nozzle, not a foot back. Taking it the opposite direction, imagine swinging a baseball bat or golf club by a normal grip, and then trying to make it stop at a finite point in space. Not going to happen - it's either going to overshoot the target because you swung too hard, or it's going to ease into position slowly because you had to nancy it to maintain control. It's less exaggerated, but the same thing happens with the muzzle of your rifle.

I do think the magwell grip is comfortable for holding the gun for a long time on target. If your grip is normally further out, you can always still revert your grip to the magwell if you find yourself in a situation where it becomes viable. I'd rather optimize my rifle for shooting, and make adjustments for non-shooting situations, than the other way around.

Just my 1.5 cents.

[BLACK LION]

I do think the magwell grip is comfortable for holding the gun for a long time on target. If your grip is normally further out, you can always still revert your grip to the magwell if you find yourself in a situation where it becomes viable. I'd rather optimize my rifle for shooting, and make adjustments for non-shooting situations, than the other way around.

Just my 1.5 cents.

This makes alot of sense to me...

I was under the mindset I had to choose one and stick with it since there are trainers that drive finding that same "reference point" into you...
I like the principles of using the "competition grip" with the vfg but I also find that taking those same principles and using them with a "modified magwell grip" its less stress on my elbow and more comfortable for shooting distances whith longer intervals between shots...
As stated above... armor, gear , stock and barrel length, time between shots, distance to target etc. all play a role in placement and what is considered a "reference point"...
I find that maybe shooting longer distances with more time in betweren shots the "competition" magwell grip is more comfortable whereas the "competition" grip on with the vfg is more "high speed low drag" in a cqb environment or anything within 100 yds....



I really like the idea of using them both and trying to work them into my all around shooting capability...



Thanks...

[BLACK LION]

go out and download/research 3 popular AR15/Carbine drills.

Run each one with the mag-well grip and one with the VFG/Rail Grip.

See if there is any significant difference in accuracy, shot placement, follow up shots, time, etc...

I'll put a bottle of bud heavy on it that you will shoot better with your hand further out on the rail/handguard..


I agree...

however I do see some merit in using a "combetition" grip with the magwell crook as a reference point...

[BLACK LION]

Good shooters will shoot better with a fuller extension of the support arm.
There are many more considerations that go into perfecting support hand grip than what makes the difference between a good shooter and a great shooter.
Wearing armor, stock length, rail attachments, optics, etc will all influence how the gun balances and performs.
That being said, a high grip (with or without VFG), extended to the proper position with the proper amount of rearward pressure will result in better shooting and more solid target to target transitions.
Frankly, to truly understand these aspects you will need to find a good trainer and learn.

I understand completely and I am gald you pointed it out this way....

As far as training goes its pretty much up to me to train and practice on my own till something comes my way....
I am looking into getting into some things here locally in San Diego as well as springing for an airsoft primary and secondary to increase my training and practice time in a more practical way...
I do have a "hit list" of outfits I would like to train under when the opportunity comes around again.

US trainig center has a facility here and I am sure the magpul guys will be around again... just to name a couple I have in mind...

[Derek_Connor]

however I do see some merit in using a "combetition" grip with the magwell crook as a reference point...



how so?

[Redhat]

Couple of additional reasons I don't like it:

1. When an AR15 "blows" the magazine and mag well are usually damaged from gas pressure escaping downward...don't want my hand there if it happens.

2. I have seen shooters cause stoppages when a finger or thumb (left handers) unintentionally blocks the ejection port.

[BLACK LION]

how so?

Distance... longer intervals between shoots...maintiaining the same shooting position for an extended period of time... basically from a "marksman" "sharpshooter" standpoint...
The hand wouldnt be on the mag well per say...It would be gripping the handguard with the thumb driven forward and the pad under the pinkie pushed into the crook between the top of the lower receiver and the lower part of the handguard...


?????

[RogerinTPA]

Distance... longer intervals between shoots...maintiaining the same shooting position for an extended period of time... basically from a "marksman" "sharpshooter" standpoint...
The hand wouldnt be on the mag well per say...It would be gripping the handguard with the thumb driven forward and the pad under the pinkie pushed into the crook between the top of the lower receiver and the lower part of the handguard...


?????

Your mixing apples and oranges as far as types of shooting is concerned. The competition grip, is for more precision shooting or conventional competition rifle marksmanship, and for points. Here, we are training to improve on "tactical shooting techniques" with carbine, pistol and in some instances, shotgun, with various unconventional shooting positions and obstacles: under cars, around cars, buildings (In buildings), shooting on the move, moving while shooting from cover to cover, draw fire, transitioning from long gun to pistol, etc... We are training how to shoot bad guys in the real world, more efficiently, not scoring points to win a match. Doing a Camp Perry "off hand" technique in a real gun fight will just get you killed. Check out the threads in the Training Forums and look at the AARs for the various classes. You will notice in the pictures that it's "Tactical" shooting techniques being employed, that will never be seen in the competition marksmanship world.

For most, having your arm naturally extended on the rail, while applying rearward pressure, with or without a VFG, will result in more accurate shooting, as others have stated.

[NCPatrolAR]

Your mixing apples and oranges as far as types of shooting is concerned. The competition grip, is for more precision shooting or conventional competition rifle marksmanship, and for points. Here, we are training tactical shooting techniques with carbine, pistol and in some instances, shotgun with various unconventional shooting positions and obstacles: under cars, around cars, buildings (In buildings), shooting on the move, moving while shooting from cover to cover, draw fire, transitioning from long gun to pistol, etc... We are training how to shoot bad guys in the real world, more efficiently, not scoring points to win a match. Doing a Camp Perry "off hand" technique in a real gun fight will just get you killed. Check out the threads in the Training Forums and look at the AARs for the various classes. You will notice in the pictures that it's "Tactical" shooting techniques being employed, that will never be seen in the competition marksmanship world.

Reading over BL's description, it doesn't sound like he is speaking of a Camp Perry type grip. To me, it sounds like the thumb is at the 9 o'clock position, pointing forward while the edge of the support hand is making contact with the mag well. Reminds me of taking the thumbs forward grip used on a pistol and applying it to the carbine/rifle.

Seems to me that it might provide a slight, and I do mean slight, bit more stability over the standard mag well hold

[RogerinTPA]

Reading over BL's description, it doesn't sound like he is speaking of a Camp Perry type grip. To me, it sounds like the thumb is at the 9 o'clock position, pointing forward while the edge of the support hand is making contact with the mag well. Reminds me of taking the thumbs forward grip used on a pistol and applying it to the carbine/rifle.

Seems to me that it might provide a slight, and I do mean slight, bit more stability over the standard mag well hold

From this statement,
Distance... longer intervals between shoots...maintiaining the same shooting position for an extended period of time... basically from a "marksman" "sharpshooter" standpoint...

I interpreted it as a more conventional marksmanship standing position. Something like this:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/usamustanding1x350.jpg

Which is similar to what I used when I competed with match grade M-16s.

His latter sentence seems to follow, just varying the hand placement, in my mind,
It would be gripping the handguard with the thumb driven forward and the pad under the pinkie pushed into the crook between the top of the lower receiver and the lower part of the handguard but would provide a more stable platform for distance, but for a more conventional competitive stand, not a tactical one. There are various hand position techniques used for stability, depending on user preference. Maybe the OP could add more clarity. Are you talking "conventional marksmanship" or "tactical shooting"?

[BLACK LION]

I say "competition grip" as this is what Chris Costa refers to in the Magpul training... I tried my best to describe what I was referring to so I apologize if I fell short in doing so...
The above picture is far from what I was referring to...

When I refer to marksman, sharpshooter I mean slower, more stable methodical shots... My rig is more of an SPR/DMR but is required to play a dual role and be a cqb rig as well... I am trying to balance one shot one kill between shoot till dead... if that makes any sense...

"Reading over BL's description, it doesn't sound like he is speaking of a Camp Perry type grip. To me, it sounds like the thumb is at the 9 o'clock position, pointing forward while the edge of the support hand is making contact with the mag well. Reminds me of taking the thumbs forward grip used on a pistol and applying it to the carbine/rifle."

Exactly.... its the same grip...its also almost identacal to how a sword is supposed to be held since you can index the pointer finger in the direction of the barrel and thumb but along to lower portion of the 9 oclock rail in the void between 9 and 6 oclock or 6 and 3 and if running left handed... thumb is run along the void between the 9 and 12 oclock rail... 3 and 12 oclock if left handed...

[BLACK LION]

"conventional marksmanship" or "tactical shooting"?

"Tactical" sharpshooting and cqb combined...

sharpshooting being at distances that requires a more stable platform and methodical shooting... and "cqb" being up close rapid/dynamic moving and shooting...

[RogerinTPA]

"Tactical" sharpshooting and cqb combined...

sharpshooting being at distances that requires a more stable platform and methodical shooting... and "cqb" being up close rapid/dynamic moving and shooting...

Got it. What distances would you be referring to?

Shooting position:
Which one would you most likely be in or go to,...to take a more precise shot? (Reason I ask, is that from your comments, I still have some modified standing position stuck in my head).

Is your weapon stock or do you have any precision parts on it, match/stainless barrel/trigger?

[RogerinTPA]

its the same grip...its also almost identacal to how a sword is supposed to be held since you can index the pointer finger in the direction of the barrel and thumb but along to lower portion of the 9 oclock rail in the void between 9 and 6 oclock or 6 and 3 and if running left handed... thumb is run along the void between the 9 and 12 oclock rail... 3 and 12 oclock if left handed...

Agreed. That support hand position, thumb forward, parallel to the barrel, used to help index the weapon on the target, is the most advocated hand position. I think Katar referred to it as a "Rhodesian" technique, developed by a Rhodesian military scout or SOF unit, back in the 70's.

[zushwa]

Good shooters will shoot better with a fuller extension of the support arm.
There are many more considerations that go into perfecting support hand grip than what makes the difference between a good shooter and a great shooter.
Wearing armor, stock length, rail attachments, optics, etc will all influence how the gun balances and performs.
That being said, a high grip (with or without VFG), extended to the proper position with the proper amount of rearward pressure will result in better shooting and more solid target to target transitions.
Frankly, to truly understand these aspects you will need to find a good trainer and learn.

As an aside, dude, you're smart. Every ****ing post of yours I read is spot on. Your posts epitomize training, experience, thought and articulation.

I don't know who you are but thank you for posting.

[BLACK LION]

Got it. What distances would you be referring to?

Shooting position:
Which one would you most likely be in or go to,...to take a more precise shot? (Reason I ask, is that from your comments, I still have some modified standing position stuck in my head).

Is your weapon stock or do you have any precision parts on it, match/stainless barrel/trigger?

Thanks for asking...

lets start with the rig:
WOA 6.8spc stainless 16" 1-11 6groove spc2 chamber...fire lapped as part of break in...
Phantom .308 5C2
Mid length gas system, mid length Yhm solid.
Upgraded bolt, standard carrier.
Standard RRA single stage trigger with wolff heavy hammer spring and oversize antiwalk pins.
Ace arfx rifle stock, standard rifle buffer, SSS chrome silicone flatwire spring...
Optic is a bushnell elite 4200 1.25-4x24 and a soon to be offset MRDS...
I run Magpul MBUS as well.
Its a custom build on a billet receiver but I wouldnt say its a true "precision" set up... an SPR, sure...

Distance:
200-600yds
I have only hit a lilttle over 400yds with my rig from a kneeling position but I know I can get it to 600.

Positions:
Kneeling
sitting
prone

I shoot standing in an isosceles and can make hits with no support out to 200 yds... I use a V-tac single point sling so I dont have any support but my grip...
I find with a "modified magwell" grip I can keep my "reaction" arm closer to my structure with at least my triceps still tucked into my torso...


take care out there guys...

[Failure2Stop]

As an aside, dude, you're smart. Every ****ing post of yours I read is spot on. Your posts epitomize training, experience, thought and articulation.

I don't know who you are but thank you for posting.

Aw dude, stop, yer gonna make me blush.
:)

Seriously thanks, though I get to stand on the shoulders of giants- which really helps.

[scottryan]

Support hand out front.

Another thing to add, the magwell grip is frequently used by people that don't know what they are doing because it looks cool. What does that tell you?

As other said, the only time the magwell grip should be used for extended periods of constant position.

[vicious_cb]

magwell grips are comfortable...gunfights arent comfortable.

Give yourself good extension further up the rail.

[hammonje]

As an aside, dude, you're smart. Every ****ing post of yours I read is spot on. Your posts epitomize training, experience, thought and articulation.

I don't know who you are but thank you for posting.

Big +1 to that. This guy is so generous with his knowledge and is cool about it too. Never puts anybody down, just tries to educate. Thanks for all you advice dude!!!!!!!!!

Really appreciate it and to top it off you save us a lot of money by avoiding ignorant purchases and getting our rigs all squared away!!!!!!