View Full Version : AR15 SBR measurment...
Hi guy's ,
I am having the trust drawn up and was curious that when you measure the rifle concerning the over all lenght on a ar,
do you measure it with the stock in the closed position or in the farthest out position ?
Just hate to submit anything incorrect.
I have been reading and see alot but can't seem to find that answer.
Also I see where alot of you guy's listed 2 barrels and I will be doing same as I want to use my full auto 10.5 gas piston upper along with the 16.5 so good info on that for sure.
Some of the ranges here probably don't want me to bring the full auto so the SBR will do the trick quite nicely.
TIA to all
Crap just found it farther in the threads , extended so thansk anyway I should have looked farther.
You might want to read through this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35574
Collapsed seems to be the safe bet, not extended.
You might want to read through this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35574
Collapsed seems to be the safe bet, not extended.
Safe in what sense? What would be the ramifications of using the extended length?
Safe in what sense? What would be the ramifications of using the extended length?
Read the thread and you can see how the discussion went.
Read the thread and you can see how the discussion went.
I did.
You say it's safer to put the collapsed length on your Form 1. I just want to know why you think that.
Collapsed is the way I went. Since the restrictions are on shorter weapons and 'easier to conceal' I would guess that they want the collapsed length as it would be the shortest possible variation. This means that if you put the extended length and are approached by a BATFE agent who wants to see you paperwork and it shows a certain OAL and you can actually make it 5" shorter that would seem to me like you were hiding the ability to make it even more concealable originally. Now if you put shortest and it's longer what could possibly be misconstrued as deliberate misleading and what would you have gained from this information?
I did.
You say it's safer to put the collapsed length on your Form 1. I just want to know why you think that.
Basically what Jer said. An over-zealous LEO at the range, Customs uses the range I go to, and then ATF gets involved looking at things. I want my 2K investment as clean and safe from mis-interpretations as possible. Plus I asked a few folks here whose opinion I respect and collapsed was the answer I got. That all makes me feel "safer".
decodeddiesel
09-04-09, 09:33
Basically what Jer said. An over-zealous LEO at the range, Customs uses the range I go to, and then ATF gets involved looking at things. I want my 2K investment as clean and safe from mis-interpretations as possible. Plus I asked a few folks here whose opinion I respect and collapsed was the answer I got. That all makes me feel "safer".
If some LEO looking for his Jr. G-man badge decides to make a stink about my SBR to the point where he has seen my stamp, and yet continues to harass me, well guess what that is? Harassment. You do have rights you know, and if some cop decided to violate those rights by harassing me over something totally legal then he is in the wrong and he will pay for the mistake.
I would file a formal complaint against him, then talk to a lawyer about a lawsuit. You filed the Form 1 in accordance with Federal Regulations regarding NFA items. You have an approved tax stamp to posses that SBR from the BATFE. Everything else is minutia.
Great place here and lots of good info as well !!
CarlosDJackal
09-04-09, 12:40
I put the collapsed length on all of my Form 1s. The overall length is just another criteria to determine if it is an SBR along with barrel length. But once it's an SBR based on the barrel length, what does it matter if the overall length you put in is extended or collapsed?
Basically what Jer said. An over-zealous LEO at the range, Customs uses the range I go to, and then ATF gets involved looking at things. I want my 2K investment as clean and safe from mis-interpretations as possible. Plus I asked a few folks here whose opinion I respect and collapsed was the answer I got. That all makes me feel "safer".
As someone said in the other thread, the method of measuring OAL described in the Federal regs says the length between the "extreme ends" of the firearm. That is plain language, not open to any "interpretation," in my opinion.
The fact is that a 10" barreled AR with its buttstock collapsed is no more or less a short-barreled rifle than a gun with a 2" barrel and a 20 foot buttstock. There are no "degrees" of SBR rifle. It either is or isn't.
The desription listed on the form is for identification, period, and unless there is some problem matching the serial number on the gun to that on the form, the physical description will never be an issue.
I put the collapsed length on all of my Form 1s. The overall length is just another criteria to determine if it is an SBR along with barrel length. But once it's an SBR based on the barrel length, what does it matter if the overall length you put in is extended or collapsed?
Overall length is only mentioned in the legal definition of a firearm made from a rifle. Because a rifle is defined as a firearm made and designed to be fired from the shoulder, ie. a firearm with a buttstock, a weapon without a buttstock must meet a minimum OAL, regardless of it's barrel length.
The legal definition for a SBR, a short-barreled rifle with a buttstock, does not include OAL as a defining characteristic. So, you're right, it doesn't matter.
The correct answer is extended.
The BATFE considers the overall length, of a rifle/shotgun with a folding &/or collapsible stock, measured with the stock extended. State and local agencies may have a different definition(s), but we are talking about filling out a federal form so we would go with the federal definition.
NFA Handbook E-Pub 5320.8 Revised April 2009.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/index.htm
Section 2.1.5 Any Other Weapon
On page 9 they give a good example.
"NOTE: One version of the Marble’s Game Getter was produced with 18-inch barrels and a folding shoulder stock. This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."
As others have pointed out, it doesn’t really matter as we are discussing the form in reference to a rifle with a barrel less than 16in. A rifle subject to NFA can be one of two things; a "rifle" or a "weapon made from a rifle". Section 2.1.3 states “A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” notice it does not say anything about overall length. Overall length only comes into play for weapons made from a rifle in section 2.1.4.
Again the correct answer is extended. :D
If some LEO looking for his Jr. G-man badge decides to make a stink about my SBR to the point where he has seen my stamp, and yet continues to harass me, well guess what that is? Harassment. You do have rights you know, and if some cop decided to violate those rights by harassing me over something totally legal then he is in the wrong and he will pay for the mistake.
I would file a formal complaint against him, then talk to a lawyer about a lawsuit. You filed the Form 1 in accordance with Federal Regulations regarding NFA items. You have an approved tax stamp to posses that SBR from the BATFE. Everything else is minutia.
I'm with you, but a lot of people have a lot of grief by being right with the wrong guy. :(
Overall length only comes into play for weapons made from a rifle in section 2.1.4.
Somehow I suspect shortening down an AR-15 falls into being "made from a rifle". If that's the case I doubt you get credit for the extended length when it can be made shorter.
"2.1.4 Weapon made from a rifle. A weapon made from a rifle is a rifle type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore."
Now I really don't care what you put in the section for OAL, and I really hope you never find out which is right under the wrong circumstances, but I'm willing to bet that the only length they care about is how short the rifle is or can be.
But to each his own. :)
decodeddiesel
09-04-09, 17:38
Disregard.
decodeddiesel
09-04-09, 17:41
I'm with you, but a lot of people have a lot of grief by being right with the wrong guy. :(
That is very true. The bottom line is that if you have done your part, and have the tax stamp in hand, then the law is on your side period.
Formal complaints of harassment are taken very seriously by Law Enforcement agencies.
Somehow I suspect shortening down an AR-15 falls into being "made from a rifle". If that's the case I doubt you get credit for the extended length when it can be made shorter.
But to each his own. :)
Section 2.1.3 Rifle.
There are two key sentences in this paragraph
(1) "A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder"
(2) "A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."
The AR15 we are talking about has a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder; it is a rifle.
A weapon made from a rifle is no longer intended to be fired from the shoulder. However even if "you" decide the definition of "a weapon made from a rifle" is more appropriate lets look at the example given in Section 2.1.5. Pay special attention to the bold text, and especially the red text.
"This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."
As someone said in the other thread, the method of measuring OAL described in the Federal regs says the length between the "extreme ends" of the firearm. That is plain language, not open to any "interpretation," in my opinion.
The fact is that a 10" barreled AR with its buttstock collapsed is no more or less a short-barreled rifle than a gun with a 2" barrel and a 20 foot buttstock. There are no "degrees" of SBR rifle. It either is or isn't.
The desription listed on the form is for identification, period, and unless there is some problem matching the serial number on the gun to that on the form, the physical description will never be an issue.
This is correct.
CarlosDJackal
09-05-09, 15:03
Overall length is only mentioned in the legal definition of a firearm made from a rifle. Because a rifle is defined as a firearm made and designed to be fired from the shoulder, ie. a firearm with a buttstock, a weapon without a buttstock must meet a minimum OAL, regardless of it's barrel length.
The legal definition for a SBR, a short-barreled rifle with a buttstock, does not include OAL as a defining characteristic. So, you're right, it doesn't matter.
I have to correct you on this. AN SBR is defined by the ATF as: "A shoulder-fired rifled firearm that has a barrel that is less than 16-inches in length OR has an Overall Length (OAL) less than 16-inches."
Even if your rifle has a 16-inch barrel, it is still an SBR if it is less than 26-inches OAL.
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