View Full Version : AR Pistols (humor me)
Alright, I jumped in an AR pistol thread on another gun forum, and for the life of me can not see why anyone would use an AR pistol for serious social purposes, other than a novelty item at the range, or an interim step to an SBR.
So, in M4Carbine style, let's talk about AR pistols. I don't need to know about ballistics of a 5"-10" barrel, as I've read quite a bit about SBR ammo selection.
I want folks to talk about positive and negatives of an AR pistol in shooting, concealment, split times, etc...
Thanks.
OK, here's my opinion. I love AR's and I think the pistols look cool. I would buy one if the price was more set to being a weapon that would see little use. They are way overpriced, in my opinion. I can't justify buying one when I can get another AR rifle for just a bit more.
dog
Outlander Systems
09-06-09, 20:44
I don't even know where to begin.
My experience (Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97S) was nothing but good training for malfunction clearing. Seriously, I had so many malfunctions, consecutively, that it was absurd.
Unweildy
With no butt-stock, the only way to support the weapon is with a single-point sling extended with a lot of exertion outward.
Aiming is difficult
A red dot is MANDATORY in order to be able to hit targets.
Recoil
The cartridge isn't widely known for its recoil, but on a pistol it really comes out.
Noise
Earpro-busting loudness. I still got "Star Wars Radio" sound effects in my ears through my earpro.
Severely reduced muzzle velocity
Self-explanatory
I see infinitely more drawbacks to pluses on the AR pistol. YMMV. For me, once bitten, twice shy. The Carbon-15 is one of those "great in theory" "sounds good on paper" sort of ideas, but the reality is 180 from that little fantasy. It sucked. It sucked majorly.
Just a novelty item....in all honesty, not much different from a SBR....you are just short a buttstock.
I haven't experienced a ton of recoil, nor do I have issues with irons. I can hit a steal man sized target at 200yards with irons from a 7.5in upper.
The PWS Diablo is 8.5in and it bangs steal at 300yrds all day long. Though these guns make it out that distance....they still lack muzzle velocity.
The most common way to fire an AR pistol is "cheeking" it. ---> video of cheeking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL_mlvnw21g
I like to shoulder it and I have no problems doing so.
Your best bet and best results in an AR pistol will be from an upper size known to be reliable in SBRs.....10.5 and beyond.
AR Pistols are great. They make it very easy to create an SBR. Outside of that I am not sure what the real purpose is.
Just a novelty item....in all honesty, not much different from a SBR....you are just short a buttstock.
Kind of an important part in an SBR.
I think the above video is a perfect example of how useless they are.
spamsammich
09-06-09, 23:01
The ONLY reason why I keep a pistol lower around is to be able to have short barreled uppers, WA state isn't a free state. That being said, I don't actually build any pistols with it anymore because I hated shooting it with a very nice BCM 11.5" upper so much. The longer I own it, the less I like having a "pistol" that gathers dust.
Humor you? Okay...
http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/a2/CAPDOA93.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Clear_and_Present_Danger#Olympic_Arms_OA-93_Pistol
CIA agent John Clark can't be wrong, can he?
:D
I see no point. Never have.
I see no point. Never have.
They work great with Liberian style tactical shooting positions...
Javelinadave
09-07-09, 13:37
If you don't want to jump thru the SBR route you have a weapon that can penetrate car doors / mild steel and can also send a round several hundred feet down range. Think of it as a "super pistol". I don't own one but that is the best I could come up with.
CryingWolf
09-07-09, 17:49
Concealed carry :D
I like this video of Jeff Quinn at GunBlast. It's not exactly an AR pistol but a Kel-Tec PLR 16.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckZ0HC_GwcY
AR pistols; the only pistol to make chrome .44 Magnum IMI Desert Eagles look useful, practical, and conservative by comparison.
Humor you? Okay...
http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/a2/CAPDOA93.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Clear_and_Present_Danger#Olympic_Arms_OA-93_Pistol
CIA agent John Clark can't be wrong, can he?
:D
They've got Elias!!!!!!!!!! Oh, wait. nevermind. Not Elias...;)
dOg
TriggerFish
09-11-09, 14:18
The good: they REALLY piss off folks like Schumer & Fineswine. Throw on a bayo, green laser, and a BETA C-MAG... heart-attack city. :D
Heavy Metal
09-11-09, 15:01
Humor you? Okay...
http://www.imfdb.org/images/a/a2/CAPDOA93.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Clear_and_Present_Danger#Olympic_Arms_OA-93_Pistol
CIA agent John Clark can't be wrong, can he?
:D
I always see that and think of Elias looking for Barnes and some payback.
kaiservontexas
09-11-09, 15:09
They look too cumbersome to serve any real purpose in my opinion. I will state that I have not handled or fired one. I have seen them at gunshops and gunshows. If I owned one I could not help put submit to the NFA registry for an SBR. In which case I would want an LMT (just throwing that out there) complete lower over Oly, BM, RRA, etc. to have a better total SBR package. The lack of a buttstock would drive me nuts.
QuietShootr
09-11-09, 17:33
Just a novelty item....in all honesty, not much different from a SBR....you are just short a buttstock.
I haven't experienced a ton of recoil, nor do I have issues with irons. I can hit a steal man sized target at 200yards with irons from a 7.5in upper.
The PWS Diablo is 8.5in and it bangs steal at 300yrds all day long. Though these guns make it out that distance....they still lack muzzle velocity.
The most common way to fire an AR pistol is "cheeking" it. ---> video of cheeking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL_mlvnw21g
I like to shoulder it and I have no problems doing so.
Your best bet and best results in an AR pistol will be from an upper size known to be reliable in SBRs.....10.5 and beyond.
Steal?
I built my first AR pistol a little over a year ago, and now have three. One is chambered in a wildcat cartridge 7.62 ARk which is a stretched 300 whisper, the other two are 5.56mm chambers. I live in Michigan so cannot have a SBR and not so sure if I would want to go through the paper work and tax to get one anyway. A AR pistol gives me everything a SBR has just no butt stock.
There is so much good info on the net to help you make good choices in building a AR pistol it is pretty easy to get a reliable build the first time. I went with ACE and Spikes pistol buffer tubes, standard carbine recoil springs and T2 buffers on all of my pistols. Also used a M16 bolt carrier, more mass for cycling during firing. Gas port position and size are important also for proper cycling with the barrel length you choose, my barrels are 10.5 and 11.5 inch. The point is there is no reason a AR pistol should be any less reliable than a SBR.
As far as best times and control, it is more a training issue than anything. I use the cheek weld method with nose to charging handle and do not try to shoulder it as it would make me shift my shoulder in an unnatural position. In other words I bring the pistol to point just like I would a rifle it just does not contact my shoulder (about 1" inch away). I use a two point sling and it to helps with stability and control for the longer shots. The use of a good muzzle device like a recoil compensator can also help with follow up shots, I have been using the PWS FSC models in 556 and 30 bores.
You can look at the AR pistol and say what good is it in which case you will probably never try one or you can say this looks promising what can I do with it.
Joe
VooDoo6Actual
11-29-09, 09:23
I built my first AR pistol a little over a year ago, and now have three. One is chambered in a wildcat cartridge 7.62 ARk which is a stretched 300 whisper, the other two are 5.56mm chambers. I live in Michigan so cannot have a SBR and not so sure if I would want to go through the paper work and tax to get one anyway. A AR pistol gives me everything a SBR has just no butt stock.
There is so much good info on the net to help you make good choices in building a AR pistol it is pretty easy to get a reliable build the first time. I went with ACE and Spikes pistol buffer tubes, standard carbine recoil springs and T2 buffers on all of my pistols. Also used a M16 bolt carrier, more mass for cycling during firing. Gas port position and size are important also for proper cycling with the barrel length you choose, my barrels are 10.5 and 11.5 inch. The point is there is no reason a AR pistol should be any less reliable than a SBR.
As far as best times and control, it is more a training issue than anything. I use the cheek weld method with nose to charging handle and do not try to shoulder it as it would make me shift my shoulder in an unnatural position. In other words I bring the pistol to point just like I would a rifle it just does not contact my shoulder (about 1" inch away). I use a two point sling and it to helps with stability and control for the longer shots. The use of a good muzzle device like a recoil compensator can also help with follow up shots, I have been using the PWS FSC models in 556 and 30 bores.
You can look at the AR pistol and say what good is it in which case you will probably never try one or you can say this looks promising what can I do with it.
Joe
Good post and spot on.
I have found the same.
A lot of OLD SCHOOL tradition have diluted and muddied the facts.
New technologies, alloys, materials have changed and the smarter companies have seen the light and listened.
I use Nose to charging handle and works same as any AR platform.
Rifle caliber weapon in a small compact package.
AR Pistol is a tremendous asset to have in URBAN/Vehicular/Helo/Maritime venues imo.
TXGUNNER308
11-29-09, 13:31
Just did mine as temp pending my SBR paperwork / stamp!
Ok, first off I don't want to jack the thread, I just have a related question. I have read some of you state that an AR pistol is a good alternative to an SBR or a good way to own a short barrel weapon while waiting on the paperwork for an SBR. Now I am thinking of getting / building a pistol. What are the requirements to be classified an AR pistol? If I got a Bravo company 11.5" upper and got a lower do I just have to get a pistol buffer tube and I'm good?
SouthParkTactical
12-04-09, 22:54
I am building one up because I can! :D
It does seem to be the ultimate truck gun, since it is a pistol you can have one in the pipe and 30 on stand-by. A car-jackers worst nightmare IMHO
I am building one up because I can! :D
It does seem to be the ultimate truck gun, since it is a pistol you can have one in the pipe and 30 on stand-by. A car-jackers worst nightmare IMHO
Three little syllables...Beta C!!
I have enough AR carbines (for now).I too was thinking of going the pistol route for several years now.W/out getting parts from several different companies and building one.Who would be recommened as the best quality,most reliable complete pistol? Best barrel lenght etc.
It would be a CQB/PDW/truck gun basically to bridge the gap between the handgun and full size carbine.There are times when it would be nice to have the rifle caliber/high cap,but lower profile of the AR-15 pistol.
Texpatriate
12-05-09, 15:32
Ok, first off I don't want to jack the thread, I just have a related question. I have read some of you state that an AR pistol is a good alternative to an SBR or a good way to own a short barrel weapon while waiting on the paperwork for an SBR. Now I am thinking of getting / building a pistol. What are the requirements to be classified an AR pistol? If I got a Bravo company 11.5" upper and got a lower do I just have to get a pistol buffer tube and I'm good?
As long as you are building it on a "virgin" lower that has never been assembled as a rifle, and that was either transferred to you as an "Other Firearm" or a "Handgun" on the form 4473 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf), then you should be good to go to build a pistol. If it was transferred as a "Long Gun" on the 4473, then don't even think about it unless federal prison sounds attractive to you. Laws are funny like that, ain't they?
At a later date, you can pay your $200 and after receiving back approval from the ATF to build an SBR, you can then engrave your lower and change out your pistol receiver extension for a rifle or carbine extension. The lower is then legally at that point defined as an SBR. It can never go back to being a pistol again. Even if you put a 20" rifle upper on it at a later date, it is still legally an SBR and subject to all relevent laws.
Hope that helps.
SouthParkTactical
12-07-09, 11:11
Hey question for you guys that are running AR Pistols. I am trying to figure out which way to go for the buffer tube.
I have seen three options out there...
First are very short pistol buffers that require a modified bolt carrier (this is a no go for me, want it to work with a standard BCG)
Second are the medium length tubes that are shorter than a Car tube, but work with the standard BCG.
Finally the full length Car tubes designed for pistol use. (round with foam wrap)
I am going to be running a LMT 10.5 inch upper on my pistol, and I want it to run 100%. Should I go with the full length pistol buffer, or can I get good reliability out of the medium length one.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Ken
Texpatriate
12-07-09, 11:43
Hey question for you guys that are running AR Pistols. I am trying to figure out which way to go for the buffer tube.
I have seen three options out there...
First are very short pistol buffers that require a modified bolt carrier (this is a no go for me, want it to work with a standard BCG)
Second are the medium length tubes that are shorter than a Car tube, but work with the standard BCG.
Finally the full length Car tubes designed for pistol use. (round with foam wrap)
I am going to be running a LMT 10.5 inch upper on my pistol, and I want it to run 100%. Should I go with the full length pistol buffer, or can I get good reliability out of the medium length one.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Ken
If you are basically building a pistol AR to avoid the legal hassle, cost, and paperwork of an SBR, but otherwise want something similar to what an SBR would give you, OR if this is simply just a step for you in the process of building a legal SBR, then I would go with the "full length" receiver extension. The fact that you are using a 10.5" LMT upper rather than one of the really short uppers would suggest to me that one or both of the above is the case. I'm guessing you want something with some degree of usable practicality and that is "SBR-ish".
The longer extension uses the same buffer and spring as a standard carbine receiver extension and will be heavier, balancing out the rear of the gun better (or at least that's the case with the RRA pistol extension). It seems like to me that the shorter extensions would cause reliability issues, but I have no experience with them myself. If it's just going to be a range toy that you're trying to make as small as possible and could care less about reliability, then do whatever you want.
geminidglocker
12-07-09, 12:14
I'm still working on my pistol build, I still need an upper, barrel, and BCG. I'm building it as an interim to an SBR. I also wanted an AR platform that would fit in my backpack. There is also the fact that in my state you can not have a chambered round in a rifle while driving in a car, but you can have a ready to go pistol chambered while driving. Sure they may not be practical, but that's why I won't just buy one outright. That would seem like a waste. Building one slowly, as funds allow, makes it kind of like a gun that "Just showed up". No dropping a grand in one fell swoop. I used the ACE receiver extension, it's full length.
VooDoo6Actual
12-07-09, 12:27
I have seen through the years as our understanding of technology and materials continue to improve the AR Pistol has become a viable option.
With some current state's Draconian laws in effect that basically amount to putting your hair on fire and putting it our with a Hammer, they are VIABLE to 300yds. or so when done right with devastating effectiveness.
imo, it's tough to beat for MOUNT / Urban AO applications.
When it's done right w/ GOOD components / KIT etc. they are as efficacious as any SBR.
I would not count them out by today's standards as impractical at all.
In the hands of someone skilled or "switched on" they are scary.
I know of at least one MAJOR FED agency looking very seriously into these at this time.
The paradigm is changing for a reason gents. ;)
I used the ACE receiver extension, it's full length.
I'm not one hundred percent positive, but I think you have to have a shorter tube, pistol tube or what the correct terminology is to stay legal.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Just remembering gun shop talk
SouthParkTactical
12-07-09, 22:19
If you are basically building a pistol AR to avoid the legal hassle, cost, and paperwork of an SBR, but otherwise want something similar to what an SBR would give you, OR if this is simply just a step for you in the process of building a legal SBR, then I would go with the "full length" receiver extension. The fact that you are using a 10.5" LMT upper rather than one of the really short uppers would suggest to me that one or both of the above is the case. I'm guessing you want something with some degree of usable practicality and that is "SBR-ish".
The longer extension uses the same buffer and spring as a standard carbine receiver extension and will be heavier, balancing out the rear of the gun better (or at least that's the case with the RRA pistol extension). It seems like to me that the shorter extensions would cause reliability issues, but I have no experience with them myself. If it's just going to be a range toy that you're trying to make as small as possible and could care less about reliability, then do whatever you want.
Thanks for the info. I looked at the RRA pistol extension on their website just now and I like the looks of it... plus its only like $25. I do not want to have a proprietary spring and buffer for this pistol build, and like to keep parts standard. So I will go with the CAR length tube.
I had not originally planned on building a pistol, but a few months ago when I bought a couple of lowers, the vendor mistakenly sent me one marked pistol. Since it is a virgin lower, and was transfered to me as a receiver... I am GTG. My thoughts are that I will build this pistol using an LMT 10.5" upper that I can use on a SBR lower later if I choose to go down that road. And the pistol lower will be easy to sell later, possibly at a profit. If I end up liking the pistol then of course I will keep it, as one can never have too many black rifles or black pistols :) I do think it has some practical applications with the 10.5 inch upper.
Next question... would you guys recommend a standard CAR buffer for the LMT 10.5 upper or the H Buffer? It seems like I have read on here that the LMT has a smallish gas port so the H buffer is not necessary... any drawbacks to the H buffer if it is not really needed? The H buffer is about 2x as much $$, so would rather not spend the extra dough if not necessary, but I want the gun (like all of my guns) to run 100%.
Thanks!
spamsammich
12-07-09, 22:39
Where the heck are you shopping that charges 2x for an H buffer so I can avoid them like the plague?
YIKES! I guess that's the going rate? I could have sworn I only paid like 7 bucks more for my H buffer and 12 bucks for my CAR.
SouthParkTactical
12-07-09, 22:48
Where the heck are you shopping that charges 2x for an H buffer so I can avoid them like the plague?
Bravo Company. $11 for the Car and $23 for the H... most other vendors seem similar
Edit: Quick on the draw. Just saw your edit. Damn inflation!
spamsammich
12-07-09, 22:51
It looks like Rainier is charging a similar premium on the H, but 9.50 for the CAR, 18.95 for the H. If you can't swing the extra 9 bucks to help the gun run like a top, we've certainly hit hard times :(
SouthParkTactical
12-07-09, 23:00
If I could not afford an extra $9 or $12, I wouldnt have bought an LMT upper. :rolleyes:...But I dont like to spend more than I have to unless there is a good reason to.
Can anyone comment on the best buffer to run with the LMT 10.5" upper?
Thanks
spamsammich
12-07-09, 23:17
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42694
This should help a little.
I ran a H buffer with my pistol and it worked pretty well. Others have reported H2 or H.
SouthParkTactical
12-10-09, 12:10
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42694
This should help a little.
I ran a H buffer with my pistol and it worked pretty well. Others have reported H2 or H.
Thanks for the link. I spent some time reading the thread you linked, and all others I could find on here regarding the various buffers. What I have learned is the following:
LMTs tend to have smaller gas ports than most, LMT ships complete guns with CAR buffers.
LMTs will probably run 100% (non-suppressed) with the CAR buffer
The H Buffer can't hurt and will probably aid in reliability with all ammo types.
And in an unrelated development the LMT 10.5 that I pulled the trigger on is not available. So I just now ordered BCM 11.5 upper instead. Cant wait to get it together! :D The sale that Bravo Co is running right now on their uppers and BCGs rocks!
spamsammich
12-10-09, 16:42
It's more like LMT has the correct gas port size. So will a BCM, that's what I ran when I had a pistol.
geminidglocker
12-10-09, 17:03
Three little syllables...Beta C!!
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm196/davecharlie08/ARPISTOL09007.jpg
My AR Pistol will likely end up heavier than my Rifle.:D
Overton-AR
01-02-10, 10:01
I gotta be honest. I never really wanted an AR pistol. However, I wanted an SBR so bad it made my TEETH HURT. I know there is a proper "order of things" you must do while building an SBR and I wanted to do everything legit. Then I found a deal I couldn't pass up. I acquired my 11.5" complete upper in a trade before I was ready to build the SBR. So I quickly built a lower receiver with a pistol buffer tube so when my 11.5" upper showed up, a couple days later, I would be legal. So, now I had an AR pistol.....I saw this as nothing more than a stepping stone on the way to my SBR.
I quickly filed a "Family Firearms Trust," filled out my Form 1 for the NFA and mailed it all off with my $200 check to the BATFE. I am currently waiting for my tax stamp to be returned. (probably be another 2-3 weeks or so) But here is the funny part......I find myself loving this AR pistol. It absolutely ROCKS. There is just something awesome about shooting this gun that gets my blood pumping. Extremely fast on target, easy to handle and light weight. I now take this gun on all my "Bunny Killing Sprees" and it the best "Bunny Gun" I have ever owned.
I am already building my next AR that will NOT be SBR'd, but remain a pistol. It will be just like the one below, except it will be a 10.5" barrel.
I currently have an Aimpoint CompM4 mounted on the pistol below.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/yfz450air/IMG_1704.jpg
Seeing that I may be relocated to Michigan the pistol is an asset where a SBR is a liability as that lovely state is one that frowns upon our rights. But then again having to file for a stamp is an infringement too.
Better to have one where you can, then not where you could.
geminidglocker
01-09-10, 15:58
I took mine out Rabbit hunting today. Did'nt have any luck, but had I have seen one, it would have been Rabbit Stew for supper. :D
I forgot to mention, It was so much handier to carry than my Clark barreled 10/22, and at distances within 25 yards, with FMJ, it's lights out crazy wabbit.
I have had one for 3 years. Built on a "virgin lower". Full length carbine buffer.
It runs 100%, no FTF/FTE at all. I carry it in the jeep as a carry gun.
I also got it certified to carry at my department. Strictly as an entry weapon.
I have an Eotech 553 on it.
So far no issues and I have about 2500 rounds through it as of today.
Oh, it's a great conversation piece as well. The usual remarks are, "Nice AR......what the hell is that thing!"
VooDoo6Actual
03-16-10, 15:39
+1 crash54,
imo,
I can get 3 & 4 points of contact in shooting postions that are a accurate and effective as any SBR & I have enough to verify.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/LWRCPistolCRG1911-1.jpg
I have had ZERO relaibility issues and carry this pistol daily.
For Vehicles, MOUT, Estates, Movements, DIP (defend in place engagements) Concealability it is tough to beat.
I would choose this any day over a AK pistol for accurate shot placement.
YMMV...
pacrimguru
03-17-10, 02:40
i have one because it's the closest thing to an sbr i can have legally. :(
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20Pistol/46d3466e.jpg
:)
have you checked to verify the handstop is not considered a VFG in cali? otherwise, you's might get in trouble...
-----
what would happen if you stuck a A1 receiver extension/buffer/spring on a pistol and kind of hunched your shoulder up to make contact with it? still too high to shoulder?
pacrimguru
03-17-10, 05:17
thanks for the concern. general consensus is that the finger stop does not count as a forward grip. you simply really can't get a grip on it. calguns.net is my bible when it comes to the intricacies and loopiness of CA law.
VooDoo6Actual
03-17-10, 07:51
what would happen if you stuck a A1 receiver extension/buffer/spring on a pistol and kind of hunched your shoulder up to make contact with it? still too high to shoulder?
That is one method for three POC..
The fourth POC involves your cheek/jawline.
ColdDeadHands
03-18-10, 08:14
i have one because it's the closest thing to an sbr i can have legally. :(
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20Pistol/46d3466e.jpg.
:)
What kind of buffer / buffer tube is that? Looks nice.
That is one method for three POC..
The fourth POC involves your cheek/jawline.
....and still be able to cheekweld, was the intent of the question
pacrimguru
03-18-10, 11:14
What kind of buffer / buffer tube is that? Looks nice.
thanks, it's a GSE (Gunsmoke Enterprises) pistol buffer. it actually uses a 1911 spring if you could believe it. to my surprise after installing it, it shoots extremely reliably with all sorts of ammo. the first 20 or so rounds had mixed FTF's, but after that its been smooth sailing.
If you want something cheap and legal-S&W is coming out with an MP-15 22 pistol. Pic: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=278531
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