View Full Version : ATF change in policy regarding lower receivers
Just thought I would do a post on a somewhat recent change that most people are not aware of.
The ATF now classifies AR lower receivers as "Other" on the 4473. This means that they are neither a Rifle nor a Shotgun and CANNOT be sold to anyone under the age of 21 and you cannot go across State lines to buy them from an FFL dealer (just like a pistol).
C4
Can I infer from this too many people from restrictive states are crossing state lines to free states to purchase AR lowers?
Moving to Arizona from California in 11/07 was the best thing I ever did...
Can I infer from this too many people from restrictive states are crossing state lines to free states to purchase AR lowers?
Moving to Arizona from California in 11/07 was the best thing I ever did...
I cannot say for certain why the change.
IMHO, the ATF created a very cloudy argument (that the receiver is neither a rifle, shotgun or pistol) that will be used to persecute FFL dealers if they so choose.
C4
So if you are building a pistol, what do you need to do? Rifle of non-NFA specification?
I haven't ever purchased a pistol from a gun store... Do I understand that you have to buy one only in your state? An example: If I travel to Maine and see a deal, do they have to ship it to a FFL in my home state? And now this applies to AR's?
Hey Naxet1959,
I like your location address. I imagine it's hard to find a FFL out there.
Just thought I would do a post on a somewhat recent change that most people are not aware of.
The ATF now classifies AR lower receivers as "Other" on the 4473. This means that they are neither a Rifle nor a Shotgun and CANNOT be sold to anyone under the age of 21 and you cannot go across State lines to buy them from an FFL dealer (just like a pistol).
C4
This has always been law in the GCA of 1968 but they just recently started to enforce it.
geminidglocker
09-09-09, 18:05
Likely what happenned is some 18yr. old built himself a pistol AR in a state where 18 yr. olds cannot posses pistols. I've been CCW since age eighteen here in Vermont, and clarified(With LEOs) that it was legal. We don't even need permits here. But that's my take on what "Might" caused the new methodology.:confused:
John_Wayne777
09-09-09, 20:35
Were I to become President my first act would be to strip the BATFE of all discretionary regulatory authority.
Likely what happenned is some 18yr. old built himself a pistol AR in a state where 18 yr. olds cannot posses pistols. I've been CCW since age eighteen here in Vermont, and clarified(With LEOs) that it was legal. We don't even need permits here. But that's my take on what "Might" caused the new methodology.
While that's possible, I'd point out that the BATFE doesn't really require a reason to make a ruling like this.
goodoleboy
09-09-09, 20:37
Were I to become President my first act would be to strip the BATFE of all discretionary regulatory authority.
While that's possible, I'd point out that the BATFE doesn't really require a reason to make a ruling like this.
John Wayne for President in 2012!!!!!! :D:D:D
John_Wayne777
09-09-09, 20:38
I haven't ever purchased a pistol from a gun store... Do I understand that you have to buy one only in your state? An example: If I travel to Maine and see a deal, do they have to ship it to a FFL in my home state? And now this applies to AR's?
Federal law restricts the purchase of handguns to an FFL dealer within your state...a measure purported to be aimed at stopping illegal trafficking in firearms. It is, like most of our other gun laws, baloney.
If I read Grant's post correctly, AR lowers will now be treated the exact same way. Complete rifles should be the same.
Thats how I read it. There must have been so many stripped receivers sold during the initial days of OBH that the ATF must have freaked out. How many of them must have not been classified as non-rifles so they can show up as a pistol or rifle. What is it, once a rifle, always a rifle. A pistol can legally get a stock in combination with a 16"+ barrel, or back to a pistol again? SBR police on alert.
This has always been law in the GCA of 1968 but they just recently started to enforce it.
What was? Just this year we required to list lowers as "other" and "receiver" on the 4473 FFL log books.
C4
shittercrewchief
09-09-09, 21:43
so does this count against me in VA in buying one handgun every 30 days?
Robb Jensen
09-09-09, 21:47
Correct.
Other = pistol gripped shotguns (ones with no stock), silencers, receivers, AOWs etc. Things that aren't readily handguns nor long guns.
Other(s) does require one to be 21yrs of age to receive on a 4473.
Here in VA it's kind of crazy. The SP-65 (The VA State Police form) that gets filled out when you make a purchase in VA from an FFL holder along with the Federal 4473 doesn't have an 'other' catagory. So if you're buy say a complete LMT lower. On the SP65 it'll be a 'rifle', on the 4473 it'll be a 'receiver'.....talk about consistently inconsistent.
Grant,
Does this mean I (FL resident) could not buy a built lower from you now.:confused:
Robb Jensen
09-09-09, 21:52
so does this count against me in VA in buying one handgun every 30 days?
Depends. Receivers are receivers Federally.
If you get say two 1911 Caspian frames on transfer unless you are a VA based LEO or have a VA Concealed Handgun Permit or have a multiple purchase permit from the VSP you'll only be permitted to receive on transfer 1 receiver (handgun receiver) per 30 calender days. See my post above. If you're getting AR lowers (or known long gun receivers) these would count as rifles per the VA State Police and would not count against the handgun 30 calender day thing in VA.
Grant,
Does this mean I (FL resident) could not buy a built lower from you now.:confused:
No. I'm pretty sure it just means you couldn't drive to his shop, buy it, and then drive home to Florida with it. You can still buy one from him and have it shipped to your local FFL. At least that's how I understood it.
RancidSumo
09-09-09, 22:05
What about a complete lower? Shouldn't that still be a rifle since it has a stock?
Robb Jensen
09-09-09, 22:09
What about a complete lower? Shouldn't that still be a rifle since it has a stock?
If VA it on the State form it'll be a rifle.
It's a receiver on the Federal 4473 unless you can actually fire it. If it's a whole rifle it's a rifle, if it's just half of it......as in the case of the lower then it's just a receiver.
What was? Just this year we required to list lowers as "other" and "receiver" on the 4473 FFL log books.
C4
That a stripped receiver is not a long gun and must be sold to a 21 year old or older.
The "other" classification has always been there, it was just never printed on the 4473.
The same is true for shotguns that do not have a stock but have barrels over 18". These are also in the "other" category and cannot be sold to anyone under 21 years old.
Thompson Center Encore with a muzzleloading barrel is also an "other" as the receiver is a firearm as it can accept a centerfire rifle or shotgun barrel but doesn't have one in its current muzzleloader configuration.
The same is true for shotguns that do not have a stock but have barrels over 18". These are also in the "other" category and cannot be sold to anyone under 21 years old.
I remember dealing with this when I was selling guns. Got hard to explain to customers at times so I just started saying "hey man, it's the government, they don't have to make sense." ;)
I thought this new 4473 had been out there for several months, maybe even all of 2009? I could have sworn my KAC lower transfered as an "other" and that must have been sometime in December or January I think.
The kac was a complete or strip?
Stripped.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/LOWERS/KNIGHTS-P.jpg
Just thought I would do a post on a somewhat recent change that most people are not aware of.
The ATF now classifies AR lower receivers as "Other" on the 4473. This means that they are neither a Rifle nor a Shotgun and CANNOT be sold to anyone under the age of 21 and you cannot go across State lines to buy them from an FFL dealer (just like a pistol).
C4
That is a load of crap.
So if you are building a pistol, what do you need to do? Rifle of non-NFA specification?
Buy a lower that is registered as a Pistol.
C4
I haven't ever purchased a pistol from a gun store... Do I understand that you have to buy one only in your state? An example: If I travel to Maine and see a deal, do they have to ship it to a FFL in my home state? And now this applies to AR's?
Correct. You can only buy pistols in your state of residents.
C4
so does this count against me in VA in buying one handgun every 30 days?
No as it is NOT technically a pistol.
AR lowers (that are not registered as a pistol) are basicall their own catagory (that does not fit into rifle, shotgun or pistol).
C4
Grant,
Does this mean I (FL resident) could not buy a built lower from you now.:confused:
Are you 21? If so, then there are no worries.
C4
If VA it on the State form it'll be a rifle.
It's a receiver on the Federal 4473 unless you can actually fire it. If it's a whole rifle it's a rifle, if it's just half of it......as in the case of the lower then it's just a receiver.
Yep. It is just a receiver.
C4
That a stripped receiver is not a long gun and must be sold to a 21 year old or older.
The "other" classification has always been there, it was just never printed on the 4473.
The same is true for shotguns that do not have a stock but have barrels over 18". These are also in the "other" category and cannot be sold to anyone under 21 years old.
Thompson Center Encore with a muzzleloading barrel is also an "other" as the receiver is a firearm as it can accept a centerfire rifle or shotgun barrel but doesn't have one in its current muzzleloader configuration.
Yes, but until THIS year, the ATF TOLD you to classify them as a Rifle on the 4473 and that is also how they were registered by the manufacturer's. You could also have sold stripped lowers to anyone as long as they were 18 (according to the ATF).
I just had my inspection and spent two days going over this with them and YES, there was a policy change/enforcement change just this year according to the agent.
C4
So much for running down to AZ to buy my ARs now :mad:
So much for running down to AZ to buy my ARs now :mad:
I would be SHOCKED if the FFL you buy from is aware of the law change/interpretation change.
I am not saying to go and attempt to buy from them, but most likely are unaware that it is illegal for you to do so.
C4
I wonder if all the mfg's will stop putting cal markings on their receivers because of this.
that upper can be different at some point even if you bought it as a complete AR 5.56 rifle.
geminidglocker
09-10-09, 10:02
Hold on tight folks, I'll get the pop-corn.:rolleyes:
Yes, but until THIS year, the ATF TOLD you to classify them as a Rifle on the 4473 and that is also how they were registered by the manufacturer's. You could also have sold stripped lowers to anyone as long as they were 18 (according to the ATF).
I just had my inspection and spent two days going over this with them and YES, there was a policy change/enforcement change just this year according to the agent.
C4
Yes I know. The ATF was letting manufactures list lowers as they manufactured them as rifles. This was not correct and the ATF aligned itself to the GCA of 1968 with a more correct interpretation.
I would be SHOCKED if the FFL you buy from is aware of the law change/interpretation change.
I am not saying to go and attempt to buy from them, but most likely are unaware that it is illegal for you to do so.
C4
I'd rather buy from G&R at this point in time ;)
Yes I know. The ATF was letting manufactures list lowers as they manufactured them as rifles. This was not correct and the ATF aligned itself to the GCA of 1968 with a more correct interpretation.
That is kind of my point. They have (just recently) had an entire change in policy.
C4
I wonder if all the mfg's will stop putting cal markings on their receivers because of this.
that upper can be different at some point even if you bought it as a complete AR 5.56 rifle.
Some companies already have done this.
C4
Some companies already have done this.
C4
I have received one w/ the multi and it seems like the right thing to do for the long haul only for safety reasons as AR's can be tricky. Heck, you cannot even see some bbl's stamped in some cases w/ all the furniture.
Some companies already have done this.
C4
pardon my ignorance but what is a Cal marking?
pardon my ignorance but what is a Cal marking?
Referring to caliber i.e. 5.56 or .223
geminidglocker
09-10-09, 13:27
pardon my ignorance but what is a Cal marking?
It's inconsequential, just like the rest of this thread.( See pistol AR ) forum. Sad:(
Back on subject, my lower doesn't have a Cal mark, not that I have seen.
If Irish goes to where I think, they are well-aware of the "change".
I would be SHOCKED if the FFL you buy from is aware of the law change/interpretation change.
I am not saying to go and attempt to buy from them, but most likely are unaware that it is illegal for you to do so.
C4
If Irish goes to where I think, they are well-aware of the "change".
IG - I used to go to SGC alot, I purchased 3 LMTs and 2 Noveskes from them, as I was down in that area for business frequently. The prices are a little higher but the customer service was outstanding and especially compared to here in Vegas. Gun stores here seem to revolve around renting machine guns to tourists as the service is abysmal to say the least.
1859sharps
09-11-09, 00:46
What was? Just this year we required to list lowers as "other" and "receiver" on the 4473 FFL log books.
C4
I was a dealer in the early 90s, this issue dusted up then too, but nothing came of it.
On calguns one of the more educated dealers says he has been told to make a receiver a rifle he just needs to install the rifle stock and then can sell to someone who is 18, 19 or 20. what's your local ATF agent saying?
That's what I thought. Next time you come down my way give me a shout for lunch.
IG - I used to go to SGC alot, I purchased 3 LMTs and 2 Noveskes from them, as I was down in that area for business frequently. The prices are a little higher but the customer service was outstanding and especially compared to here in Vegas. Gun stores here seem to revolve around renting machine guns to tourists as the service is abysmal to say the least.
Stripped.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/LOWERS/KNIGHTS-P.jpg
Who sells stripped KAC lowers?
I was a dealer in the early 90s, this issue dusted up then too, but nothing came of it.
On calguns one of the more educated dealers says he has been told to make a receiver a rifle he just needs to install the rifle stock and then can sell to someone who is 18, 19 or 20. what's your local ATF agent saying?
Interesting. The ATF is actually releasing specific info about this issue and giving dealers much clearer instructions.
No on the lower with the stock as you cannot fire it in that config.
C4
cfulback32
09-12-09, 20:45
Buy a lower that is registered as a Pistol.
C4
I'm a little confused here. For a AR pistol, why can't you just buy a stripped lower and use that for a pistol if it isn't considered a rifle with this ruling?
(I'm asking because I want to do a 10.5" pistol and eventually SBR it and not have "PISTOL" marked on the lower forever)
I'm a little confused here. For a AR pistol, why can't you just buy a stripped lower and use that for a pistol if it isn't considered a rifle with this ruling?
(I'm asking because I want to do a BCM 10.5" pistol and eventually SBR it and not have "PISTOL" marked on the lower forever)
You could always and still do that. You also don't need to mark PISTOL on it then or now.
I'm flying on the other side...if you buy a lower as a pistol. Leave it as a pistol or form it to a sbr if you want to rifle stock it.... Why not just do it right and save the grief.
sbr and pistola are not the same, correct???
If the widget is an sbr and you get caught shooting it as a pistol.....then what?? Probably a better outcome than the reverse.:rolleyes:
cfulback32
09-13-09, 17:42
I'm flying on the other side...if you buy a lower as a pistol. Leave it as a pistol or form it to a sbr if you want to rifle stock it.... Why not just do it right and save the grief.
sbr and pistola are not the same, correct???
If the widget is an sbr and you get caught shooting it as a pistol.....then what?? Probably a better outcome than the reverse.:rolleyes:
If I want to purchase the 10.5" upper today and keep it with me, the only way to do that and be legal is if I have a pistol lower as far as I know (I don't have an SBR currently).
As I understand the laws, I can assemble that pistol lower with a 10.5" upper, and enjoy shooting that and getting it sorted out while I am waiting on the paperwork for the SBR. Then, when the paperwork goes through I can put a stock on the pistol lower and it becomes a SBR.
Seems like the only reason not to do this is having to purchase a pistol buffer tube and later sell it. Am I missing something?
Dave Berryhill
09-13-09, 21:17
I would be SHOCKED if the FFL you buy from is aware of the law change/interpretation change.
I am not saying to go and attempt to buy from them, but most likely are unaware that it is illegal for you to do so.
C4
Count me as one of those dealers. I have not received any info from the ATF about this.
I have always wondered how the ATF gets away with being the only law enforcement agency that gets to make policy, interpret laws AND enforce them.
Razorhunter
01-26-10, 22:29
I realize of course there are MANY stupid firearms laws in place guys, but the law that prevents a person from purchasing a firearm outside of his state of residency from a law abiding, registered FFL dealer is RIDICULOUS.
I mean, WHY can't I drive outside my home state of GA, to say, Alabama, or Florida, or ANY other state, and purchase a firearm, and then drive back home with it?
A NICS check is a NICS check, and if I pass the NICS check, then I SHOULD be GTG, no?
WHY is that such a problem with the ATF, or law makers????
I have known about this change for over a year. And I am not an FFL. A new version of the 4473 came out about a year ago and dealers were told a start date on when they had to use it. Up to that start date they could use up their old supply of 4473. That new version is when the "other" appeared and this change in policy came about. Originally they had to start using it around Jan 2009 but it was later moved up IIRC to later in the Spring.
I ran into this during a purchase of a stripped lower at a show in a neighboring State late last year. Sat there for over half an hour while the dealer was on the phone with ATF. NICS kept coming back as denied when called in as "other". When the dealer finally got through to a Supervisory Agent, they were informed to simply mark it down as a rifle on the 4473 and retry the NICS check. Finally went thru as a rifle.
This is totally ridiculous - as stated in another post, NICS is NICS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the "N" stand for "National"? Does it make a difference what State I'm in when the transaction is called in to NICS? I wouldn't think so. Seems to me to be just more harrassment of gun owners and dealers.
What I can see happening as an unintended consequence of this new interpretation is a rapid increase in black marketing of receivers. Ya know, it ain't that difficult for someone with access to a CNC machining center and a little knowledge to reverse-engineer an AR lower receiver and pump out as many as they want with no traceability. Is that what the ATF wants?
Disclaimer Time - I am not condoning that anyone follow the above process, it is presented merely as a hypothetical example of what can happen as a result of illogical and repressive government interference with trade.
Were I to become President my first act would be to strip the BATFE of all discretionary regulatory authority.
I would disband ATF and turn the collection of taxes for regulated items over to the IRS. I would then take all the out of work ATF agents and give them to ICE so that they could devote their efforts to securing the borders and tracking down illegals for prosecution.
I would also strike the "sporter clause" from the 68 GCA and remove all regulation and legislation for which it serves as a basis.
I would disband ATF and turn the collection of taxes for regulated items over to the IRS. I would then take all the out of work ATF agents and give them to ICE so that they could devote their efforts to securing the borders and tracking down illegals for prosecution.
I would also strike the "sporter clause" from the 68 GCA and remove all regulation and legislation for which it serves as a basis.
At least take the firearms out of the ATF. Make it ATE.
I just don't see the BATFE doing much regarding tobacco or alcohol .. . . they seem to be wholy focused on guns. I think SteyrAUG is on to something with the disbanding and shipping to ICE.
Does this law also apply to assembled lowers?
Nathan_Bell
01-27-10, 15:00
I just don't see the BATFE doing much regarding tobacco or alcohol .. . . they seem to be wholy focused on guns. I think SteyrAUG is on to something with the disbanding and shipping to ICE.
Nah, they are PITA to everyone under their purview. Friend of the family is working to open a micro-brew bar and mini-winery and they have had more interviews and visits from ATF folks than I ever did when opening my gunshop.
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