View Full Version : SBR Trust engraving question
SpartanArms
09-09-09, 16:38
Hey all,
I recently received my approved Form 1 back with tax stamp for the AR-15 lower that I SBR'd. I filed the Form 1 as a revocable living trust, and am wondering exactly what needs to be engraved on the lower. I understand that you have to engrave the makers name, city + state (where firearm was created). Do I have to put Revocable Living Trust, or can I just put Trust.
John Doe Revocable Living Trust
City, State
or
John Doe Trust
City, State
Which one of these is correct? I'd appreciate advice from anyone who filed their Form 1 as a trust. Thanks.:)
John Doe Trust
City, State
works just fine
May I ask how long you waited to get you form 1 back? I have one that I'm waiting on myself.
Congrats on yours!
SpartanArms
09-09-09, 23:06
Rojas,
I got my approved Form 1 back about a month ago, sometime during the first week or so of August. I sent mine in back in March of this year, so my wait was approximately 5 months from start to finish. Thanks for the info. :D
Rojas,
I got my approved Form 1 back about a month ago, sometime during the first week or so of August. I sent mine in back in March of this year, so my wait was approximately 5 months from start to finish. Thanks for the info. :D
Ouch, I was hoping for something around 3 months. I hope things are moving a little faster now!
Jet Noise Bass
09-10-09, 22:53
Ouch, I was hoping for something around 3 months. I hope things are moving a little faster now!
Sent mine in on July 1st, got it back approved in the mail today. (9/10/09)
Sent mine in on July 1st, got it back approved in the mail today. (9/10/09)
That's not bad... Gives me hope.
Mine was sent on 8-11-09.
Jet Noise Bass
09-10-09, 23:12
That's not bad... Gives me hope.
Mine was sent on 8-11-09.
Now if the upper would come in, I'd be in business!!
Still waiting for the suppressor paperwork as well...
I filed the Form 1 as a revocable living trust,
What is the advantage of filing your Form 1 as a revocable living trust?
What is the advantage of filing your Form 1 as a revocable living trust?
I believe no leo signature or fingerprint cards if I am right.
LonghunterCO
09-14-09, 12:01
What is the advantage of filing your Form 1 as a revocable living trust?
Although the lack of LOE sig and pic are an immediate benifit of the Trust I think that the long term advantage is that by adding other trustees to the trust allows for others (beside yourself) to be in position of the item without any legal problems (Wife, older children). I was at the range the other day with a Father and Son with several NFA items. There were both trustees on the trust and then either one could have the items without the other going out with them.
Only drawback I see is if you ever sell it, its engraved with your trust name.
As My full auto which has the tax stamp on it does not.
I guess that it just personal preference and don't mind having a supressor or sbr engraved but not a full auto m30 IMO.
Although the lack of LOE sig and pic are an immediate benifit of the Trust I think that the long term advantage is that by adding other trustees to the trust allows for others (beside yourself) to be in position of the item without any legal problems (Wife, older children).
This is a pretty significant issue, especially if something happens to the primary folk listed on the trust. The trust still has ownership, so my listed next of kin should have no problems taking physical possession of my NFA items under the trust if something happens to myself/wife. I saw the trust option mostly an excellent opportunity to make sure my next of kin would be legally in the clear.
Only drawback I see is if you ever sell it, its engraved with your trust name.
As My full auto which has the tax stamp on it does not.
I guess that it just personal preference and don't mind having a supressor or sbr engraved but not a full auto m30 IMO.
I don't really see this as a drawback. You only have to engrave what you make into an NFA configuration. For a transferred item (suppressors and auto on form 4), there is no engraving requirement as you aren't making it. Besides, I don't really see the point in selling something as common as an SBR AR lower. It would be just as easy to part the weapon out, and keep the lower. The tax costs more than most stripped lowers anyhow.
This is a pretty significant issue, especially if something happens to the primary folk listed on the trust. The trust still has ownership, so my listed next of kin should have no problems taking physical possession of my NFA items under the trust if something happens to myself/wife. I saw the trust option mostly an excellent opportunity to make sure my next of kin would be legally in the clear.
I don't really see this as a drawback. You only have to engrave what you make into an NFA configuration. For a transferred item (suppressors and auto on form 4), there is no engraving requirement as you aren't making it. Besides, I don't really see the point in selling something as common as an SBR AR lower. It would be just as easy to part the weapon out, and keep the lower. The tax costs more than most stripped lowers anyhow.
Good points.
I agree sir.
LonghunterCO
09-14-09, 17:21
I think that with many using Quicken Will maker for their trusts think that trusts have to be named using your name. That is not the case. You can name it what even you want. What would you rather have engraved on a lower for all time (reguardless of who is the current owner)
Come&Take IT Trust
Anywhere, Colorado
or
John Smith Trust
Anywhere, Colorado
Exactly what UVvis said. There is no resale value loss on a lower that's only worth $140 in the first place.
People get all assed up about this engraving and shit like it's something as important as child birth.
By the way, there was word on the boards that ATF was no longer accepting any abrieviations in the name of the Trust for what it's worth.
I am going to register my lower as a revocable trust also. Should I add the lower to my trust before or after I do the atf paperwork?
Also on the form 1 what box do I check? (Individual, Corporate or otherbusiness entity,)
I am going to register my lower as a revocable trust also. Should I add the lower to my trust before or after I do the atf paperwork?
Also on the form 1 what box do I check? (Individual, Corporate or otherbusiness entity,)
1. Add you lower to the trust first. The Trust can't apply for an tax stamp for an item
it dose not own.
2. Check Corporation or other business entity.
Thanks that helps alot.
No problem...Good luck!
Bit of a hijack but I'm wondering. After you get the lower engraved with your city/state, what happens if you move?
Nothing happens. Just like nothing happens when Bushmaster and Colt put their info on a lower when they sell them.
Bit of a hijack but I'm wondering. After you get the lower engraved with your city/state, what happens if you move?
Thanks IG but can you provide a little more detail. Do you just register a change of address with the BATF? Does it not matter if you now live in a different city/state because your trust still, I guess resides is the right word, in the original city/state in which it is was created? In researching nfa/trust stuff that's the one thing I haven't found a clear answer on. I'm thinking about registering a sbr for my next project but I'm also contemplating a move so trying to make sure I've got all the details and info to stay on the proper side of the law:)
As far as I know you simply file the appropriate paperwork with BATFE informing that you have changed or are changing residences. I believe that it is the same form as the one that needs to be done when taking items across state lines.
I am not a lawyer and don't play one on the TV or internet. I am pretty sure that the BATFE would give you an answer if you called them. Better yet maybe even a letter so that way you have something in writing.
Thanks IG but can you provide a little more detail. Do you just register a change of address with the BATF? Does it not matter if you now live in a different city/state because your trust still, I guess resides is the right word, in the original city/state in which it is was created? In researching nfa/trust stuff that's the one thing I haven't found a clear answer on. I'm thinking about registering a sbr for my next project but I'm also contemplating a move so trying to make sure I've got all the details and info to stay on the proper side of the law:)
As far as I know you simply file the appropriate paperwork with BATFE informing that you have changed or are changing residences.
Correct. The form needed is a Form 20 (5320.20). This is for permanent or temporary interstate transport of an NFA item.
Under the "Reason for Transportation of Firearm" you simply list that it's a temporary move (training class, firing range visit, etc.) or a permanent change of address.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f532020.pdf
Correct. The form needed is a Form 20 (5320.20). This is for permanent or temporary interstate transport of an NFA item.
Under the "Reason for Transportation of Firearm" you simply list that it's a temporary move (training class, firing range visit, etc.) or a permanent change of address.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f532020.pdf
A local, in-state move would require no notification though, correct?
LonghunterCO
09-18-09, 11:51
A local, in-state move would require no notification though, correct?
That is my understanding...again you can contact the BATFE on that one to make sure.
A local, in-state move would require no notification though, correct?
A permanent change of address should be notified to the BATFE. You don't have to, but it's good practice to let them know exactly where your item(s) is/are supposed to be located. I'm not aware of a specific form for an intrastate change of address so I'd recommend calling the nice ladies at the ATF and asking them. They're at your disposal to answer questions such as this.
Keep in mind that NFA items require us to be responsible with our toys. In this day and age, there's really no such thing as being too responsible. ;)
SonicKrack
09-19-09, 12:28
Be aware that you have to use the Trust name, letter to letter without any shortings or dots. If your Trust is: "John Doe NFA Revocable Living Trust" the same has to appear on your lower. You cannot shorten it down to: John Doe RLT or John Doe Trust. This is the most common mistake people make after the Form 1 has been approved. Just my .02 cents.
Be aware that you have to use the Trust name, letter to letter without any shortings or dots. If your Trust is: "John Doe NFA Revocable Living Trust" the same has to appear on your lower. You cannot shorten it down to: John Doe RLT or John Doe Trust. This is the most common mistake people make after the Form 1 has been approved. Just my .02 cents.
With all due respect, you know this because you've asked the ATF? Is this a legal issue that the trust isn't valid unless named letter for letter when writing the name on forms or documents? Inquiring minds want to know.
SonicKrack
09-19-09, 14:21
With all due respect, you know this because you've asked the ATF? Is this a legal issue that the trust isn't valid unless named letter for letter when writing the name on forms or documents? Inquiring minds want to know.
The posted information comes from personal experience as I have transfered 2 SBRs on Form 1 and 3 Suppressors using a Revocable Trust. The following thread in Silencertalk.com gives a more indepth debate on the issue.
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43998
As I mentioned, just my .02 cents.
I think that's not completely correct.
"John Doe NFA Revocable Living Trust"
can be engraved
"John Doe NFA Trust"
SonicKrack
09-19-09, 14:34
Excerpt from the above listed URL:
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Called today. Spoke to a "specialist" named Janice. She told me it had to match exactly what was on your forms. She looked it up to be sure, and then said it definitely has to exactly match your forms.
Whatever you put down on section 3B and H of ATF FORM 1 should match the engraving on the lower.
Excerpt from the above listed URL:
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Called today. Spoke to a "specialist" named Janice. She told me it had to match exactly what was on your forms. She looked it up to be sure, and then said it definitely has to exactly match your forms.
Whatever you put down on section 3B and H of ATF FORM 1 should match the engraving on the lower.
Yeah I read that, Still disagree. Ask the same question to several ATF agents and you likely to get various answers. There are many Revocable Living Trust out there engraved "John Doe Trust".
Heck my Revocable Living Trust is refereed to as the My Name Trust in the trust document. A Trust is a trust weather it is a Revocable Living or other type.
Under "identifying markings" I put the abbreviated trust name. That is what it is engraved with.
I've been told by my ATF rep that it doesn't have to match as long as they've been made aware of the variance. I was directed to section 8.5.4 of the NFA handbook (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/):
"8.5.4 Obtaining variances to the marking requirements. Requests for variances from the marking requirements should be submitted by letter to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) in duplicate. The requests should state the proposed variance and the reasons for the variance."
In any case, it's best to contact the ATF directly about any questions you may have. Anything posted on the internet regarding ATF/NFA regulations should be taken with salt. Ultimately it's up to the individual to make sure that he or she is in compliance with the law.
SonicKrack
09-20-09, 10:50
Erik,
This is why I marked my SBRs with the exact wording of my trust. No headaches, no worries and the extra dollars for the extra letters was worth it.
Just pick a name short enough to engrave on your gun... You can name your trust anything you'd like.
Since they started the 'send us your schedule a' shenanigans, I make a new trust for each stamp. Last one was the XXX Trust. If they want paperwork, I'll give them paperwork.
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