AR's as sniper/tactical rifles?

[Eagle1*]

I am new to the forum and am glad I found this place. I have a Remington 700 built by Randy of R & D. I am now considering an AR platform instead of the bolt action rifle only for the faster reload.

My question is, are the semi AR's as good in the accuracy dept as the bolt guns? I am considering a 308, but would like to have some opinions from other guys that have had both. I am on a $1000.00 to $1500.00 budget for this new scoped AR.

[bigbore]

My question is, are the semi AR's as good in the accuracy dept as the bolt guns?


Nope. A Semi auto anything will not be as accurate as a bolt gun. For every job, there is the right tool to be used. Sniper's rifles are bolt action.

[Steve_Morrison]

I don't agree with the esteemed Mr bigbore.

AR- based rifles are serving well as sniper rifles, witness the successfull adoption of the SR25, MK11 and XM110 by various branches of the military. I know of several police departments which use and are very happy with 223 ARs in the precision marksman role.

While a good bolt gun will usually outshoot a good gas gun, the gas guns are more than accurate enough.

[Nitrox]

I think an accurized AR15 is OK for an LE roll because of the relatively close engagement ranges. From a military standpoint the AR15 shouldn't be anything more than a DMR.

The AR10/SR25 is fine for intermediate engagements but is limited to .308 (length). If anything more than a .308 is needed the AR platform will be out classed by any long action bolt gun.

[Eagle1*]

Thanks guys, I am a police officer on my CRT Team and am kicking this idea around. Thanks for the reply's...

[DocGKR]

LE Sniper use:

ASA data of 219 sniper incidents over 20 years indicates 51 yd ave; longest shot of 187 yds, shortest of 4 feet. While snipers like to talk of head shots, there are an inordinate number of torso hits in the law enforcement forensic literature. ASA indicates 47% head (104/219) & 57% body (115/219). As a result, law enforcement sniper bullets need to exhibit terminal performance which can consistently induce rapid incapacitation with shots to the torso, as well as the head. ASA states 23% (50/219) of law enforcement sniper shots involved intermediate barriers, typically glass.

Although .223 can deliver outstanding accuracy, even out to 1000 yards, it is generally a poor choice for most law enforcement designated marksman duties due to it’s inferior incapacitation potential, especially beyond 200 yards and if intermediate obstacles are present. In general, .223 bullets offer the WORST terminal performance after penetrating glass intermediate barriers compared to many other common carbine/rifle calibers...

The 6.5/6.8 mm or .308 are far better choices: In a bolt gun, I'd go .308 and if a semi-auto is desired, 6.8 mm or 6.5 mm.

[VA_Dinger]

Welcome aboard Doc.

It's nice to see you as a member of M4carbine. I look forward to reading your posts and learning from your knowledge and experience. .

[Eagle1*]

Thanks guys, some good things to think about...

[bigbore]

I don't agree with the esteemed Mr bigbore.

AR- based rifles are serving well as sniper rifles, witness the successfull adoption of the SR25, MK11 and XM110 by various branches of the military. I know of several police departments which use and are very happy with 223 ARs in the precision marksman role.

While a good bolt gun will usually outshoot a good gas gun, the gas guns are more than accurate enough.


You dont have to agree with me just because I'm right:cool: I answered the posters question accurately - pun intended.

An autoloader will never be as mechanically accurate as a bolt gun.
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/quietnow.jpg

[KevinB]

Perhaps not as inherantly accurate but I've used both 5.56mm and 7.62mm AR based sniper platforms and they will easily outshoot me. The nice thing about the semi's is the quick follow up shots

My personal feeling is to use a semi auto in 5.56mm and 7.62mm and save the bolt gun for the .338LM and .50 role. But in the LE sniper course I took while in the mil they where very semi adverse due to political considerations (even though the rest of the ERT team had M4's...) - and the need for follow up shots/multiple target engagement is limited in the LE field


* I have not been able to convince anyone to buy me a 6.8 platform yet

[Robb Jensen]

An autoloader will never be as mechanically accurate as a bolt gun.

Your statement is illogical. All I have to show you is 1 autoloader that's more accurate than 1 bolt gun and your theory is debunked. I think you mean bolt guns are inherently more accurate not always 'mechanically more accurate'.

This Noveske upper shoots 0.36" groups at 100yds using 75gr BH.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Noveskebblnew2.jpg

This 700 was tuned by Precision Weapons at Quantico and shoots 0.52" at 100yds with 175gr BH. PW blueprinted it, lapped the bolt, put a new barrel lug in it, did a trigger job and glass bedded it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/d7a41ba4.jpg

[K.L. Davis]

As usual, DocGKR has some good dope...

I am the founder of the American Special Operations Sniper Association, which grew to the point that I had to hand things off to what is now ASA, they opened things up a little more as far as membership and you should give ASA (http://americansniper.org/) and snipersonline (http://www.snipersonline.org/) a look... lots of good info over there.

Feel free to contact me if you like... I doubt that I really know any more than most of the people here, but there are some considerations that apply to your position and job that need worked out.

[bigbore]

Your statement is illogical.

Your 100yd AR proves it :rolleyes:

I believe you shot a 0.36" group, but I know it does not happen consistantly.

If accuracy is your concern, and you are going for 1 MOA out to 1000yds. you want a bolt gun. If you understood what even happens when a round is automatically chambering in a rifle you'd see what I mean.

If your world doesnt go past 100yds, and you dont have experience shooting past 100yds, an AR is more than "good enough".

[K.L. Davis]

Your 100yd AR proves it :rolleyes:

If accuracy is your concern, and you are going for 1 MOA out to 1000yds. you want a bolt gun. If you understood what even happens when a round is automatically chambering in a rifle you'd see what I mean.

If your world doesnt go past 100yds, and you dont have experience shooting past 100yds, an AR is more than "good enough".

Steve is on the target (as long as the puns are going... why not)

A gas gun can be very, very accurate, but the turn bolts eliminate some variables that are a concern at long ranges -- as I am sure you know, the "first round off the top" can be like a CCB shot from hell with some guns, which is a big concern. The shooters technique can help over come the wayward tendencies of that round to some exent, but still a variable that can be eliminated with a different platform.

Also noted when doing very long range work with a magazine fed gun is that the shooter can often tell which side of the magazine a shot loaded from, as they do impact slightly different in some guns -- granted, we are talking subMOA variation, but yet another "feature" of the platform.

How germane is this to the world of an LE shooter? A little and a lot... depends on too many things to make one blanket statement on an internet forum and pretend that all the bases are covered.

[yrac]

Steve is on the target (as long as the puns are going... why not)

A gas gun can be very, very accurate, but the turn bolts eliminate some variables that are a concern at long ranges -- as I am sure you know, the "first round off the top" can be like a CCB shot from hell with some guns, which is a big concern. The shooters technique can help over come the wayward tendencies of that round to some exent, but still a variable that can be eliminated with a different platform.

Also noted when doing very long range work with a magazine fed gun is that the shooter can often tell which side of the magazine a shot loaded from, as they do impact slightly different in some guns -- granted, we are talking subMOA variation, but yet another "feature" of the platform.

How germane is this to the world of an LE shooter? A little and a lot... depends on too many things to make one blanket statement on an internet forum and pretend that all the bases are covered.

Perhaps K.L., KevinB, bigbore or others can provide some insight into the durability of bolt guns vs. autos as well? I think, as with most things, this thread is probably going to show that there's a right tool for each job. Maybe the gas guns are a better choice for closer range ("close" being a relative term for these rifles) engagements or when rapid followup is needed (sort of a "general purpose" precision gun), and maybe the bolt guns start to win out when we get into issues of extreme range and extreme durability requirements (a bit more specialized)? I think each platform has its place in the precision arena, they just fall into different parts of the spectrum.

[KevinB]

Tool in the tool box...

Some of our guys supporting the 101st went thru over 1000rds of 750gr AMAX in two days with the MacMillan Tac-50 and BR can (one gun on the team). I have no experience with the newer Barrett's but I know our old ones would not have survived.

[Hoplophile]

I think, as with most things, this thread is probably going to show that there's a right tool for each job. Maybe the gas guns are a better choice for closer range ("close" being a relative term for these rifles) engagements or when rapid followup is needed (sort of a "general purpose" precision gun), In a thread over on arfcom about the KAC .308 rifle being used by USMC snipers, it was mentioned that shooters with the semi were getting something like 4 times the kills. If there's a team of 4 or 5 hadjis setting up a mortar and you use a bolt gun you can get one with your first shot and maybe one of the others as they run away. But with the semi they can get most or all of them.

That's kind of a specific use that doesn't apply to most people, but it is an advantage of the semi over the bolt action.

[KevinB]

My old 5.56mm sniper rig
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Ct2.jpg

[Robb Jensen]

Nice setup KevinB. Is that on OpsInc can?

Let's also not forget SimplyDynamics somewhat 'precision' AR used out to 650 meters in Al Najaf. I've talked to him a little about that day a few times and he did say that he wished he had a .308 that day if he could do it again because the weaker stopping power of the 5.56mm at that distance, but he didn't complain about the ARs accuracy. Here's a small portion of the video.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/th_Najaf_cut.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/?action=view&current=Najaf_cut.flv)

His AR had a 20" Gov't profile barrel and he consistantly hit human sized targets in semi-rapid fire at that distance.

Semper Fi, Travis, see you when you get back stateside, we can shoot some real USPSA and 3-gun together :cool: instead of that Open 10, Limited 10 shit you have there.

[K.L. Davis]

<-- That is West

This is East -->

The original question was about a stateside, civil service, LEO's role -- so far all of the anecdotal rebutal has been .mil related stuff.

Before Carlos passed, he and I had a few long conversations about the difference between .mil and LE shooters... I am onboard with his feelings that there is a distinct difference between the two and one should exercise great caution in applying the learned discipline from one side to the other. A few here may be more qualified than Carlos to argue this feeling and I will concede that all are more qualified than I -- therefore, I shall just keep quiet on this one.

[KevinB]

Nope not OPSINC -- I was not cool enough to get one...
It is the Diemaco C7CT - the package comes with a 3-12 S&B and a Aze Utra suppressor (they are Finnish -- it took 6 months to get cans out of the US for the CF -- so only so procured OPSINC, or KAC etc. cans was not the fastest method). I took the S&B off since we got it for deployment and I used a Leupold M3LR until I grew familiar with the S&B (now I love them...)
My own personal feeling are that a AR system in 5.56mm/6.8SPC or 7.62mm NATO makes a good spotter weapon or DM system.


Like Mr. Davis I am not a LE sniper, while I have LE course I would suggest that does not give me a great deal of insight into the actual deployment workings.

[Eagle1*]

Thanks for all of the replies. I am thinking of getting an AR for the tactical/snipers role! Just do not know if the 308 is going to out weigh the 223 for me and my dept. Thanks..

[DocGKR]

Eagle1*,

I'll again re-iterate my previous comment:


Although .223 can deliver outstanding accuracy, even out to 1000 yards, it is generally a poor choice for most law enforcement designated marksman duties due to it’s inferior incapacitation potential, especially beyond 200 yards and if intermediate obstacles are present. In general, .223 bullets offer the WORST terminal performance after penetrating glass intermediate barriers compared to many other common carbine/rifle calibers...

You want to use .223 for a carbine--great; but for a sniper role where the ability to reach through intermediate barriers is critical, get a LARGER caliber.

[CapnCrunch]

I agree wholeheartedly with Kevin. The platform is more than adequate for a spotter/sniper support rifle.

I'm especially digging the 6.8 for that particular application.

[Robb Jensen]

So are we talking LE sniper or 1000yds sniper? Isn't the average LE sniper shots something like 90yds or under?

If we're talking 1000yds or further yes .308 is better, .50 better still, or as my brother an AF TACP says AC130 Spectres' or B-2, B-52 Bombers BEST!

[DocGKR]

gotM4,

Did you READ my post on page 1 of this thread discussing LE sniper statistics, including averge shot distance?


ASA data of 219 sniper incidents over 20 years indicates 51 yd ave; longest shot of 187 yds, shortest of 4 feet.

[Chili]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you guys saying gas guns arn't as accurate as bolt guns. Have you guys shot the new SR25s or equiv. i.e. DPMS Panther. We easily shot 100 and 200 yd. hydraulic shots (T-zone), and we shot out to 1100yds with both and they both did about the same. Don't confuse the cababilities of the guns/barrels with your own capabilities either. I'm carrying a bolt gun (M24) now, but wish I had an SR25/DPMS Panther. I believe that the gas guns in todays operations Iraq/Afghanistan are much more PRACTICAL. Just my opinion, with experience over here, and with both systems. I'm not going to get into the 5.56, I have no experience with any 5.56 sniper systems.

$$$:
As far as you're budget though, I don't think you could get a gas gun AS accurate as your bolt for less than $2500. I DO think it takes a lot more cash to get the gas gun as accurate as any ordinary bolt, but it IS possible.

[Robb Jensen]

gotM4,

Did you READ my post on page 1 of this thread discussing LE sniper statistics, including averge shot distance?


Yes. But to not only use YOUR source as the only for info, I had heard 90yds somewhere else as the longest LE 'sniper' shot. (from other is LE).

For LE work inside up to 300yds I don't that there is a reasonable difference (other than OPINION) between .223 in 75-77gr and .308 in 168-175gr to justify one over the other.

[Steve_Morrison]

With the wide variety of JHP and bonded bullets available to the civilian sector the 223 is serving well in various law enforcement roles.

However when bullets of similar construction are compared, the 308 (with 2X or more bullet weight) offers greatly improved terminal ballistics and vastly superior penetration through intermediate barriers, such as glass, wood, masonry, steel, body armor and various types of clothing.

[K.L. Davis]

For LE work inside up to 300yds I don't that there is a reasonable difference (other than OPINION) between .223 in 75-77gr and .308 in 168-175gr to justify one over the other.

The good thing is that this discussion has been around long enough, and there has been a great deal of discussion and testing of these very subjects, that there is no need for professionals to have to rely on opinion or specualtion.

But first a few things to keep in mind.

So far there as been no real discussion about the role or complexities of a "sniper" per se... that being that the role involves skill sets far beyond a good shot group.

There is also more than just a casual list of differences between a military and LE sniper.

Furthermore, in talking with the original poster offline, what he is looking for is not within the definiton of the role of a sniper, more so a perimiter rifle -- and for that, an AR should fill the need quite well.

There are many considerations involved in the employment of a constabulary sniper, not the least of which is departmental policy and the ever present threat of turning from shooter to litigant, or even defendant in the blink of an eye.

The data collected by ASA is considered by most, to be the most comprehensive compilation of its type... for the most part, it seems to have substantiated what many suspected prior, but now with some hard material to reference.

While the world of the LE sniper generally does not extend that far... there are unique requirements and considerations within that world -- one such troublesome critter is intermediate barriers.

It is difficult to hang things on a place in time... but a lot of people look at the Sacramento (SED) Good Guys incident as a good place to focus -- many test sprang from this, from all sorts of TLAs, ammo manufacturers and the such. As well as closer looks at indidents and the performance of ammo in real gun fights.

These tests resulted in ammo manufacturers offering some very good choices across the board -- and in the case of the OPs question, TAP or T3 in a good upper with some 4X glass will bring all the smoke needed.

However... the results of testing precision delivery through barriors has shown time and again, that the lesser caliber cartridge gives up too much of itself and its performance to its bigger brother...

I know, we can all offer stories of exceptional or supernatural perfomance of a cartridge in one incident of a checkpoint shootout at band camp last summer... and from the 187 rounds fired there is the one that deflects from a roadside marker, ricochet off of a water buffalo, enters the rear passanger window of the vehicle and strikes a blue plastic comb setting on the dashboard with enough force to send pieces of the comb about the vehicle as leathal shrapnel... killing all seven occupants.

But, the reluctance by the shooter to rely on that same voodoo happening twice in a lifetime, is certainly understandable.

[DocGKR]

K.L. Davis and Steve Morrison are right on with their comments. As mentioned, there has been a significant amount of scientific testing yielding repeatable, verifiable, irrefutable factual data rather than mere opinions. It is fair to say we have done a fair amount of work on this topic. For a perimeter role a 5.56 mm AR using appropriate ammunition is probably just fine; it might even be OK as a sniper support weapon as long as shots into vehicles or through intermediate barriers are not a common concern. Having said that, as a LE or military true sniper caliber, as contrasted with DMR or patrol/perimeter applications, the 5.56 mm just does not cut it. While snipers like to talk of head shots, there are an inordinate number of torso hits in the law enforcement forensic literature. As posted above, ASA indicates 47% of sniper shots were to the head (104/219), while 53% were to the body (115/219). As a result, law enforcement sniper bullets need to exhibit terminal performance which can consistently induce rapid incapacitation with shots to the torso, as well as the head. If you use a 5.56 mm, what happens when if you have to shoot through a window or into a vehicle, how about if the bad guy has something over his chest--perhaps AK mags? 5.56 mm is suddenly not looking so good:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/556_68AKmag.jpg

Superior terminal effects and barrier penetration ability are why .308 dominates LE sniper use; .308 accounts for 74.5% (161/216) of sniper shots chronicled in the ASA data base. Historically U.S. law enforcement and military snipers have chosen the extremely accurate, competition proven .308 Sierra Match King OTM bullets in 168 gr (M852) or 175 gr (M118LR). Unfortunately, the SMK’s have significant terminal performance problems, including very inconsistent behavior, that render them a poor choice for LE sniping. In addition, SMK’s will frequently exit the target and pose a significant downrange hazard to innocent bystanders and friendly personnel. In fact, according to ASA data, 90% of SMK shots have exited the suspect and posed a downrange hazard.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/SMKvariability.jpg

As discussed by both Fackler and Haag, the cause of SMK inconsistent terminal ballistic behavior appears to be associated with the diameter of the hollow point at the tip of the Match King bullet. Match Kings produced in the 1980’s had tip diameters of 0.028” to 0.038”, while recent Match King tip diameters appear to range from 0.012” to 0.024”. The smaller the tip diameter of the hollow point, the more the Match King tends to behave like a FMJ bullet; conversely, increasing the tip diameter enhances bullet upset in tissue. Fackler and Haag both have reported that when the SMK open tip is enlarged to at least 0.055”, the Match King offers consistent expansion and fragmentation with virtually no change in accuracy.

As a result of their mission profile and typical engagement distances, military snipers are less affected by the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s than U.S. law enforcement snipers. For law enforcement use, the inconsistent terminal effects of SMK’s can have tragic human and litigious consequences. U.S. law enforcement snipers have two choices to avoid inconsistent SMK terminal performance: Demand that Sierra market specific law enforcement Match Kings with hollow point diameters of at least 0.055” or use a different bullet which offers both acceptable accuracy and more reliable terminal performance. Luckily, several bullets are available which more than meet the requirements of LE snipers. The .308 Hornady TAP loads using polymer tip AMAX bullets offer consistently superior terminal performance compared to standard SMK bullets, although the SMK's are generally a bit more accurate. Are LE snipers willing to trade a slight bit of accuracy to eliminate SMK variability & gain consistently improved terminal effects?

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/SMKvsTAP.jpg

The 155 gr AMAX consistently offers nearly perfect terminal performance characteristics--ideal penetration, good fragmentation, and perfectly placed large temporary cavity. All of the .308 AMAX bullets we are aware of fired in OIS incidents to date have remained in the suspects' torsos; damage on autopsy has been quite impressive and exactly as predicted based on lab analysis. The 110 gr AMAX has a shallower penetration depth with a rounded temporary stretch cavity, while the 168 gr and 178 gr AMAX have deeper penetration than the 155 AMAX, with a more oval, narrower temporary stretch cavity.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308_TAP_comparison.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/CNStarget.jpg

Intermediate barriers are a significant issue for snipers. As noted, ASA states 23% (50/219) of law enforcement sniper shots involved intermediate barriers, typically glass. Unfortunately, the SMK is NOT a good barrier round.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308AKmags.jpg

Glass barriers are one of the most difficult challenges for LE snipers. OTM bullets like the SMK’s generally exhibit unfavorable fragmentation and trajectory deviation when fired through glass intermediate barriers, resulting in degradation of terminal wounding effects. Despite gunstore commando lore to the contrary, FMJ bullet terminal performance is extremely erratic against glass. Bonded JSP/PT bullets and true AP bullets like M993 are often able to defeat glass intermediate barriers while retaining their mass, although they exhibit very deep penetration in soft tissue and can be counted upon to exit the suspect and pose a downrange hazard. In addition, they are not always as accurate as other bullet designs. PT bullets, like the Hornady AMAX, offer better performance against glass than OTM bullets like the SMK, but are not the equal of bonded JSP/PT bullets or AP bullets. Currently the best glass barrier loads are the Black Hills loaded Nosler Accubond PT, Hornady Interbond PT, Federal Tactical using the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw JSP, Swift Scirocco bonded PT, as well as Barnes Triple Shock; all create similar deep penetrating wound profiles.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308barrier.jpg

-- For military snipers and others needing long range accuracy, the SMK 175 gr OTM is the way to go.

-- For intermediate barrier penetration, the bonded rounds like the BH loaded Nosler Accubond, Federal loaded TBBC, Hornady Interbond, Swift Scirroco, as well as M993 AP are the best choices.

-- At this time the Hornady 155 TAP offers outstanding accuracy nearly on par with SMK’s, as well as more consistent terminal performance, better incapacitation potential and superior performance through glass intermediate barriers than SMK’s; as a result, the Hornady 155 gr TAP using the polymer tip AMAX bullet is the probably best general purpose choice for LE snipers. BH also loads AMAX bullets. The Nosler 150 gr Ballistic Tip PT, Hornady and Nosler 155 gr OTM, Federal 165 gr TRU JHP, Sierra Game Kings, and Weapons Unlimited Hostage Rescue JHP also work well.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/308WPcomparison.jpg

If an organization wishes to retain the ergonomic, versatile AR15 system for sniper use without moving to the larger, heavier, more problematic AR10/SR25/Mk11/M110 systems, then the best option is to use an AR15 chambered in 6.8 mm instead of 5.56 mm. Interestingly, for LE purposes, the 6.8 mm potentially allows an agency to use one caliber for all their shoulder fired weapons. Not only does 6.8 mm caliber offer substantially better terminal effects and intermediate barrier penetration capability than 5.56 mm, it is also an inherently very accurate cartridge. In addition, the 6.8 mm was designed and optimized to work effectively in short barrels of 12 to 16 inches in length. The versatility, compactness, potential accuracy, and effective terminal performance of 6.8 mm allows an LE agency to standardize on one caliber and one semi-auto rifle type for multiple uses, including: patrol, entry, perimeter, sniper support, primary sniper, animal control, and personal close protection details.

Good 6.8 mm general purpose and CQB loads include the Hornady 110 gr AMAX and Hornady 110 gr OTM loads, along with the Remington 115 gr OTM load (R68R1).

The best 6.8 mm barrier loads include the Remingon 115 gr JSP (PRC68R4), the Silver State Armory (SSA) 110 gr Sierra JSP loading, and the SSA 110 gr Barnes TSX load. In addition, SSA has developed two true AP loads, one using a tungsten penetrator similar to M993/M995 and another using a hardened steel penetrator like the old .30-06 M2 AP “black-tip”.

[Gamma68]

Thanks DocGKR, outstanding information as always!

[Nitrox]

Thanks for the info Doc.

[Robb Jensen]

good info

[K.L. Davis]

you are getting sleepy...

[Nitrox]

What time is it?

[Yojimbo]

Wow, great info Doc! Thanks for sharing!

[rob_s]

Is there any issue for LE departments getting 6.5 or 6.8 ammo? Would they be better served with more common & readily available .308? I know that ammo availability has been a concern for non-LEO civilians in the 6.X calibers.

[Derek_Connor]

Hey Doc - quick anatomy question for you

From my own experience Teaching Assisting Anatomy in undergrad - wouldn't a precision shot centered on the soft spongy tissue of the nasal passage allow for more of a direct entry into the brain and brain stem? Instead of the more prominent barrier of the frontal skull? Just above the maxillary bone, but below the eyes would be the target zone.

Reason I ask, noticing the picture above, I was curious to know if most LE/Military snipers are trained to aim between the eyes if and when the headshot is available?

[Hoplophile]

Hey Doc - quick anatomy question for you

From my own experience Teaching Assisting Anatomy in undergrad - wouldn't a precision shot centered on the soft spongy tissue of the nasal passage allow for more of a direct entry into the brain and brain stem? Instead of the more prominent barrier of the frontal skull? Just above the maxillary bone, but below the eyes would be the target zone.

I'm certainly not a doctor nor am I a trained sniper, but everything I've ever heard or read is that the inverted triangle formed by the eye sockets and nasal cavity is the target when taking a shot from directly to the front.

[SethB]

All of the training I have had (open courses with great instructors) has indicated that Hoplophile is correct. Especially where pistol rounds are concerned.

[fly223]

I was reading a magazine I forgot what one but I herd that some police swat teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 in an ar-15 as there sniper rifle. They said it's more knock down power then a 223 and less kick then a 308 whick is true. Anyone know if any departments had started making them yet?



From,
Joe....

[KevinB]

I was reading a magazine I forgot what one but I herd that some police swat teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 in an ar-15 as there sniper rifle. They said it's more knock down power then a 223 and less kick then a 308 whick is true. Anyone know if any departments had started making them yet?



From,
Joe....


My English and Grammar is not the best, but I find it hard to read the above.

slight corection made to improve readability.


I was reading a magazine, I have forgotten which. I read an article that some police SWAT teams or special units in the police force will be going to the new 6.8 AR15 as their sniper rifle. The arrticle claimed more knock down power than a .223, and less kick then a 308. Anyone know if any departments had started buying them yet?

Dont believe most of what you read in gun rags. However, DocGKR gave an excellent explantion previously in this thread, and I "beleive" one or two posters here has knowledge of a LE dept using 6.8 platforms.

[sinister]

Gents, arguments about what type of rifle may come down to what your department's guidelines might be (qualification, sustainment, and currency, and agency buy policy).

The arguments can go on for days. If you work for a department that requires a factory-built / no-modification or light modification rifle (to accomodate height, length-of-pull, etc.), or if you can shoot only agency-bought weapons then your choices may narrow down to something like a 308 Remington 700, Winchester 70, or Savage 110.

If you work for a big department with large tax base (say like Fairfax, Virginia) they may be able to afford something more exotic (read expensive), but the gadgetry won't make the individual officer a better shooter.

If the officer is fortunate (or unfortunate) enough that he is allowed to use whatever he thinks is the best, the limits come down to what the officer thinks he can afford and shoot the best with the time he is allowed to practice or thinks he can spare.

If the sniper ever fails to kill a bad guy (righteous shot by rules for deadly force) and an innocent life is lost because of a failure of training, certification, or for whatever reason due to a privately-owned system, woe to him if a suing party goes on expedition.

A military guy would consider METT-T (Mission-Enemy-Troops or gear available-Terrain-and Time). No single weapon or device meets all needs, but you have to train to what you think your highest mission use set might be. Soldiers will probably be shooting at lots of bad guys jinking and running. Cops probably won't (not saying the possibility might never come up).

A game warden will need something different than a high threat warrant service team.

Never been a cop -- just my 2 cents from a Soldier's viewpoint.

[K.L. Davis]

Gents, arguments about what type of rifle may come down to what your department's guidelines might be (qualification, sustainment, and currency, and agency buy policy).

The arguments can go on for days. If you work for a department that requires a factory-built / no-modification or light modification rifle (to accomodate height, length-of-pull, etc.), or if you can shoot only agency-bought weapons then your choices may narrow down to something like a 308 Remington 700, Winchester 70, or Savage 110.

If you work for a big department with large tax base (say like Fairfax, Virginia) they may be able to afford something more exotic (read expensive), but the gadgetry won't make the individual officer a better shooter.

If the officer is fortunate (or unfortunate) enough that he is allowed to use whatever he thinks is the best, the limits come down to what the officer thinks he can afford and shoot the best with the time he is allowed to practice or thinks he can spare.

If the sniper ever fails to kill a bad guy (righteous shot by rules for deadly force) and an innocent life is lost because of a failure of training, certification, or for whatever reason due to a privately-owned system, woe to him if a suing party goes on expedition.

A military guy would consider METT-T (Mission-Enemy-Troops or gear available-Terrain-and Time). No single weapon or device meets all needs, but you have to train to what you think your highest mission use set might be. Soldiers will probably be shooting at lots of bad guys jinking and running. Cops probably won't (not saying the possibility might never come up).

A game warden will need something different than a high threat warrant service team.

Never been a cop -- just my 2 cents from a Soldier's viewpoint.

From my post on the first page of this:

<-- That is West

This is East -->

The original question was about a stateside, civil service, LEO's role -- so far all of the anecdotal rebutal has been .mil related stuff.

Before Carlos passed, he and I had a few long conversations about the difference between .mil and LE shooters... I am onboard with his feelings that there is a distinct difference between the two and one should exercise great caution in applying the learned discipline from one side to the other. A few here may be more qualified than Carlos to argue this feeling and I will concede that all are more qualified than I -- therefore, I shall just keep quiet on this one.

We are collecting all of the orignal "Long Shot" publications and scanning them into PDF format, all of them will be posted on the Snipers Armory website -- one article that I do recall was a lengthy discussion with Carlos and others about the differences between a .mil and LE shooter. Good reading, and an eye opener for a lot of folks, but your post is pretty much lockstep with what others think... we just examine it in more detail, policy and CYA steps.

Good to see you over here by the way...

[nyeti]

Sorry to get in late on this, I just saw it.

This is interesting, because I am in process on an article on just this subject. Here is my take. For a pure hostage scenario I like a sub .05 (consistantly) .308. My guys use Suppresed Tac Ops Tango 51's. I like an AR with optics for support on this. To deal with barriers-two shooters per target-period. For a majority of police operations, the precision AR is a great tool. I have deployed them with great success for many years on the street, not in training scenarios.

The AR's come into their own when supporting patrol operations and deployed to fast moving, "right now" scenarios. They are usually deployed within 50 yards, and sometimes indoors (we have numerous buildings that offer several hundred yard indoor shots). The AR is easier to use from "unconventional" positions, they are far easier to run multiple shots and I have found them to be easier to track movers with (others may differ on this). The lack of penetration by the 5.56 is often times a plus for dealing with hostage takers, or crowded scenarios. My sources at a major Socal agency that issues their snipers both 5.56 and 7.62 sniper rifles has never seen a 5.56 exit a suspects skull when shot in the head. This is not always the case with 7.62.

Another issue is familiarity. For agencies that have a bunch of AR's in patrol, having a few AR's set up for precision work is a good thing. I prefer doing entry work with a 12ga., so when I deployed an AR, I wanted an accurate one because I was using it for perimeter security. It allows for distance to be your friend out to justifiable shot distance (which is not all that far in urban metropolitan areas). I actually ran an AR with a TA01 ACOG during the last precison rifle instructor course I attended and took second in the class amongst a bunch of very skilled police marksman. The key was the class was totally geared around realistic LE scenarios, and not a revamped military course.

If you look at the success our military folks have had with DMR's , SPR's, etc overseas, then we should look at this as a guide for the areas where AR based systems will work for LE folks in urban areas, and what areas are left to bolt guns. Several former 8541's I know now prefer a semi-auto highly accurized .308 and a .338 Lapua mag bolt gun for the "real" sniper work-read 500 plus yards-as the set up they would want in todays world.

Lets look at availability. You want an AR in the trunk, or a bolt gun on the SWAT truck a couple hours away or the armory. The flat reality is that many well set up AR's can be built to conform to a "patrol rifle" standard and carried in a manner where they are with the officer at all times during a shift. Most agencies do not allow their bolt guns to be carried like this (our guys keep them in locked Pelican cases on the SWAT van, and only the sniper asigned to that gun has a key............as it should be). For most scenarios, the precision AR will be a good choice, and can certainly fill the gap till the bolt guns arrive, and then provide support for the true sniper rifles.

[GastonG-NoVa]

Our LE sharpshooters train as close as 10 feet, but 25-50 yards is the normal practice range.

These guys are "city snipers". They do go out once a month and do some 100, 200, and 300 yard stuff as well.

G