View Full Version : Let's Talk Muzzle Devices
Outlander Systems
09-11-09, 15:31
Let's talk Muzzle Devices.
What are you using and why? What's your favourite? What are your experiences with the various kit out there? What was the worst you had? The best? I've never used a brake, and it's something I'm interested in. Do these things seriously mitigate recoil, or is it hype?
I've never used anything other than the Noveske KX3 and a standard A2, so I don't have a wide field of reference. I have a Vortex laying around that buddy hooked me up with, that has never been mounted.
I'm highly interested in the Troy Medieval as a replacement for the AC-556 Flash-Suppressor.
I haven't found a dedicated thread on the topic, so I figured it was a good time to start one.
Bonus points for pics.
I chose the PWS FSC556 because it does a good job as brake AND a flash suppressor. Other products that only do one of those jobs may be better at that job, but the PWS FSC556 is a good compromise on BOTH of those jobs.
Disclaimer: I'm cheap so I usually stick with what comes with the gun.
LMT SBR - A2 FH - it came that way - it does a decent job of keeping flash down - I have shot it in total darkness.
DD M4 - A2 FH - same reason as above.
SPR 18" assembled by moi - Vortex - since I had to supply a muzzle device, and I've seen some impressive flash suppressing ability of the Vortex (better than A2) and a buddy gave me a good deal.
I'm currently running 2 KAC TT brakes for the recoil/flip management. Paired with the E3, it's my favorite.
Also have a few vortex FHs just because thats what the guns came with. They work extremely well.
decodeddiesel
09-11-09, 17:30
I only have experience with the A2, Vortex, and KAC NT4 flashhider mount (on my M4 in the Army).
The A2 works well for what it is, and as was mentioned usually comes equipped standard on most ARs. You would be hard pressed to convince me it is really worth it to change it out unless you were mounting a suppressor and needed a QD mount, or needed a longer device for legal reasons.
I found the KAC to be virtually identical to the A2 in flash suppression, although all I fired through it was M855 which isn't a bad "flasher" out of a 14.5" barrel anyway.
I run a Vortex on my 14.5" LMT to bring it to a non-NFA barrel length. It does to a better job of reducing flash, especially when firing XM193 at night, than the A2.
For shits and grins I was thinking of trying out the PWS but I just can't convince myself it is worth it honestly. I think good form and practice would more than likely negate any perceived benefits from the recoil reduction it may offer. Similarly the KAC Triple Tap looks awesome, but unless it somehow imparts heat seeking capability to the projectiles which pass through it I am not shelling out $400 for a muzzle device any time in the near future.
ztf HITMAN
09-11-09, 17:38
The AAC Blackout looks impressive as far as performance.
ThirdWatcher
09-11-09, 17:51
The AAC Blackout looks impressive as far as performance.
I've been thinking about putting one of these on my BCM4.
ztf HITMAN
09-11-09, 17:53
I've been thinking about putting one of these on my BCM4.
It is on my 'to buy' list.
I have a Surefire MB 556 brake w/ over 1500 rnds thru it. It's wicked loud, but does an amazing job getting you back on target.Much better than factory A2. however being made of stainless, it's also much heavier than an A2,and 2 me at least the weight is noticeable.:cool:
Really goes back to purpose and budget. I wish my budget would allow for a can.
But I have used an A2, and it's a fine muzzle protector. There's really nothing wrong with that.
I had a Phantom, which may have been slightly better than an A2 for comping, but too close to call. Plus, it just looks too fragile to me, so I'd pass on that.
I have an FSC30 on my 6.8spc. It probably does a fine job of comping, but I don't do double taps, and the recoil is negligible anyhow. It does send blast to the sides and rear. I would not get a louder comp. I'll swap it for an A2 when I get an AR-10.
Search a little more. There are at least 2 good threads on this, one with pics when the FSC556 came out a couple years back.
I've been shooting the PWS brake for a few thousand rounds and like it a lot. It is louder than a birdcage but the muzzle doesn't move, it just vibrates on target during rapid fire. For what it's worth if your rapid fireing a red dot out to 25 yards with say a vortex or even a birdcage you should stay on target pretty easily anyway, where comps shine in my book is with magnified optics. Having your acog vibrate on pepper poppers at 100 yards is plenty fun.
Outlander Systems
09-11-09, 19:34
Thanks for the responses.
Has anyone seen AAC's rebar-cutter?
http://www.aacblog.com/?p=1885
Interesting.
So far I'm looking at two positive responses for PWS's brake.
Having never used a brake, what are some of the pros and cons?
Anyone have any experience with the Blackout? How does it perform on flash-dampening? What is the reason for the difference between the 18-tooth and 51-tooth versions, since it's not explicitly stated.
Brake/Comp/FH-only/QD-Can & FH combo...
Options are definitely a-plenty.
Outlander Systems
09-11-09, 19:57
Found an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqoUMUkro78
foxjordan22
09-11-09, 22:38
ive been using the BWA x-comp and like it alot. i dont notice the recoil at all with this compaired to the a2. i double tap alot, and my groups have improved. but if you are behind and to the side of the shooter you can feel the pulse.
this is from there web. The X-Comp produces a light straight back recoil instead of producing muzzle rise. This design allows the shooter to fire the rifle and stay on target with minimal adjustment. Most compensators and flash hiders cause the muzzle to rise up and lengthen the time required for the shooter to get back on target. Double taps and hammers are faster and more accurate since the second shot will be closer to the original sight picture.
lanceriley
09-12-09, 00:43
I use a PWS DNTC. It's not so loud and it's manageable. It's not too long too. just right.
K.L. Davis
09-12-09, 00:52
My preference is to the OpsInc moded A1, for obvious reason...
Best flash suppression is BEM
Agreed. It's pretty long, but it definitely works better than anything else I've ever seen for flash supression. Due to length, I'm saving the one I have for an SBR.
I have a SF MB556K on my primary AR, and while I like the reduced recoil...A LOT...the blast is problematic for urban prone, shooting near others, etc. I'd like to try the PWS brake/supressor, at some point. It sounds like a good compromise.
ETA: That thought prompted me to remember this thread, regarding the Todd's Tiny One: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24396&highlight=brake
That may be just the ticket
K.L. Davis
09-12-09, 01:18
I have the PWS with the bi-lock... a very good choice if you want a dual purpose device.
Dapimpspimp
09-12-09, 01:43
I am currently running a Sure Fire MB556 on my work LMT 16inch rifle. I recently attended a Magpul Carbine 2 class with it and I could definitely could see an advantage with this muzzle brake.
Muzzle rise control is excellent. My red dot just quivers on the target, especially when shooting multiple rounds quickly. Noise for the shooter is not that bad. Its the shooters on your sides who suffer. I was running a PWS comp prior. The PWS directed more noise back towards the shooter. When shooing quickly with the PWS, I could feel the brake push the muzzle downwards as I fired. As noted by other users, the SureFire does kick up some debris when shooting urban prone.
For my purposes, the control gained while shooting in 95% of various shooting positions out weights the debris kicked from urban prone.
The Surefire does not suppress muzzle flash however. I do not find the muzzle flash to be distracting. For LE work, I am not too concerned about muzzle flash jeopardizing my position as I will probably be illuminating my target with my weapon light anyways.
For recoil control and quick follow up shots, both the pws and the surefire offer big dividends over the standard a2 flash hider in my opinion. If money was not a factor, the new knights triple tap would be worth considering.
I have a SF MB556K on my primary AR, and while I like the reduced recoil...A LOT...the blast is problematic for urban prone, shooting near others, etc. I'd like to try the PWS brake/supressor, at some point. It sounds like a good compromise.
I think that only tangible difference between the two is flash suppression (in favor of PWS). PWS also kicks a ton of dust in urban prone, and is obnoxiously loud too. The only brake that doesn't kick the dust - in my experience - is KAC TT; it doesn't suppress flash well.
My personal rifles have A2 birdcage, Vltor, KAC NT-4, PWS556, and PWS brake for AK. I don't have a clear favorite, since it is kind of apples to oranges comparison.
I have a SF MB556K on my primary AR, and while I like the reduced recoil...A LOT...the blast is problematic for urban prone, shooting near others, etc. I'd like to try the PWS brake/supressor, at some point.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1498%201024%20sTICK.jpg
The AAC Blackout looks impressive as far as performance.
Those blackouts got a nice ring to them.:D
Romeo Foxtrot
09-12-09, 16:37
I have a MB556K on my 16in AR. It works very well. For me the recoil reduction/reduction in muzzle climb is worth the loss in flash suppression and having to deal with the break kick shit up.
I have shot next to other guns using the MB556K and while there is more concussion and its a little louder, I don't find it distracting or any more annoying than shooting next to any other AR... ymmv.
FWIW, when using TAP, there is hardly any flash at all. This also goes for the M193 that I have fired through it. Federal Value Pack is very flash, though. About every 5-10 shots I get a decent sized fireball. It doesn't bother me, though.
Al U. 5811
09-12-09, 21:39
I have an MB556K on one of my guns.
I noticed that the concussion is louder for me the shooter, than others on the line. That was MY experience. The recoil impulse? All I can say is that it is different. It feels straight back like that of a Ak 74 brake. Shooting alternate prone positions is where it really becomes a turn off as others have said. It kicks up a ton of debris. I feel that maybe it's best suited for a precision or match gun.
Stick that's a ****ing cool pic!
Stick that's a ****ing cool pic!
Thanks, I like it as well.
It's all good, owning the SF brake is my excuse to myself as to why I "have" to acquire the appropriate bona fides to purchase a can for the thing. :D
I use A2's and peel-washers on all of my AR's sans one (which has an Vltor VC-1)
Course' it helps that I run a Gemtech HALO and it works with them ;)
I hate to hijack this thread but I have to say that is one of the best action photos that I have seen in a long time!
Thankyou, I appreciate that.
YammyMonkey
09-13-09, 23:41
I've used the older 4-slot Phantom & the FSC556 on my gun. The FSC seems to smooth things out a little & while it does kick up some dirt in urban prone I haven't found it to be a deal breaker for me. Some of the guys at the last OPS Tactical Carbine class said they got some good blast from it but it doesn't come back on me at all. It is a little louder than my Phantom, but not bad at all.
Romeo Foxtrot
09-14-09, 06:48
I've used the older 4-slot Phantom & the FSC556 on my gun. The FSC seems to smooth things out a little & while it does kick up some dirt in urban prone I haven't found it to be a deal breaker for me. Some of the guys at the last OPS Tactical Carbine class said they got some good blast from it but it doesn't come back on me at all. It is a little louder than my Phantom, but not bad at all.
People wont shoot next to me at the range. I think their a bunch of pussys though.
ztf HITMAN
09-14-09, 19:42
Anyone have any input on the Smith Vortex?
Outlander Systems
09-15-09, 09:49
I'm extremely curious about Troy's two offerings. Does the brake actually suppress flash, or is it simply a brake.
Will a brake mitigate recoil on an indirect impingement system, or is it a waste of time?
troy's midevil doesnt do that well at supressing flash, its much like the a2 birdcage.
the aac blackout is really good.
aftermath686
09-15-09, 15:18
I am currently running a Sure Fire MB556 on my work LMT 16inch rifle. I recently attended a Magpul Carbine 2 class with it and I could definitely could see an advantage with this muzzle brake.
Muzzle rise control is excellent. My red dot just quivers on the target, especially when shooting multiple rounds quickly. Noise for the shooter is not that bad. Its the shooters on your sides who suffer. I was running a PWS comp prior. The PWS directed more noise back towards the shooter. When shooing quickly with the PWS, I could feel the brake push the muzzle downwards as I fired. As noted by other users, the SureFire does kick up some debris when shooting urban prone.
For my purposes, the control gained while shooting in 95% of various shooting positions out weights the debris kicked from urban prone.
The Surefire does not suppress muzzle flash however. I do not find the muzzle flash to be distracting. For LE work, I am not too concerned about muzzle flash jeopardizing my position as I will probably be illuminating my target with my weapon light anyways.
For recoil control and quick follow up shots, both the pws and the surefire offer big dividends over the standard a2 flash hider in my opinion. If money was not a factor, the new knights triple tap would be worth considering.
You hit the nail right on the head.
I have the Surefire MB556k and I absolutely love it. Now this is a break, not a flash hider. So don't expect much as far as flash reduction is concerned. If your shooting at night, get a can. Most people don't like brakes because the concussion from it will bother the shooter to the left or the right. Well I have a couple friends with the same brake and it doesn't bother me one bit. In fact I ran a Magpul class about six months ago and throughout the whole class I was in between two of them. One on a SBR and another on my buddies 16in. Didn't bother me at all, and I spoke with the other shooters and it didn't bother them ether... I am not saying there is no concussion, I am just saying its really not bad at all. I think people get caught up in what they read and then go out and when they feel a little gush of wind and a bit of loud noise they automatically respond with "oh my god this is horrible." If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. As far as muzzle rise, it is pretty much gone. Truly a day and night difference. You can shoot much faster while staying accurate. The one big negative is that when firing in the urban prone, the brake kicks up a flurry of dirt and rocks which can get in your eyes... This however can be remedied by a good pare of eye-pro. (learned that the hard way)
I digress to SF's promo vid and some pictures of my own:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWUk6GJQhNQ
Another picture of what happens in the urban featuring yours truly.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2074/3533882093_3998dde337_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2638/3705852618_ed2549e422_b.jpg
spamsammich
09-15-09, 15:40
Anyone have any input on the Smith Vortex?
I got to shoot with one in low light (shade side of a mountain with the sun going down rapidly), they are better than an A2 in hiding flash. I would also say just a shade better than my 4 slot phantom. I personally can't tell the difference between the Vortex and my AAC SPR M4 Blackout, but I haven't shot them in the dark yet.
None of the devices I listed really seemed to effect recoil for me.
Unless you are using a silencer, I don't think you need anything other than an A2 flashhider.
aftermath686
09-15-09, 16:14
Unless you are using a silencer, I don't think you need anything other than an A2 flashhider.
It is not a matter of need. It is a matter of being as proficient as possible with ones weapon. Having the ability to engage multiple threats and shoot the same target more times much faster than with an A2 is a very significant advantage. Split seconds could potentially make a big difference in a gun fight, and I don't know about you, but I am going to get every advantage I can when my life or more importantly my brothers lives are on the line.
ztf HITMAN
09-15-09, 20:26
It is not a matter of need. It is a matter of being as proficient as possible with ones weapon. Having the ability to engage multiple threats and shoot the same target more times much faster than with an A2 is a very significant advantage. Split seconds could potentially make a big difference in a gun fight, and I don't know about you, but I am going to get every advantage I can when my life or more importantly my brothers lives are on the line.
This being said, which is more tactically advantageous??? A muzzle brake/comp or a flash suppressor? More specifically a Home Defense situation.
ColdDeadHands
09-15-09, 21:06
My Noveske Recon came with a Vltor Comp which I replaced with a AAC Blackout. The Vltor blasted the pressure right back into my face, the AAC doesn't. Recoil is the same.
My LMT came with a SD A2 Flash hider which is alright. Still need to fire both rifles at night and see how the Flash-hiders work.
aftermath686
09-16-09, 00:59
This being said, which is more tactically advantageous??? A muzzle brake/comp or a flash suppressor? More specifically a Home Defense situation.
First you might want to go back and re-read Dapimpspimp's post. It's all what your looking for and what your comfortable with. Personally I think the advantages of a break far outweigh the negatives especially in an home defense situation. So for me that is what I would use for an AR in HD. But even better would be a shotgun or a handgun.
Smith Enterprise Vortex. The SE Vortex generally increases accuracy and eliminates flash, while staying mounted on the weapon with minimal barrel stress inducing torque due to patented 15 degree helixed tines. It also mounts a blank firing adapter which lends it to military training.
We're putting out a new silencer soon with one, because I'd love to make a cheaper muzzle brake to mount the can to, but muzzle brakes cause a lot of flash and noise, so they are better for users who never want to take the silencer off the weapon, or who will only for storage.
Civilians might even prefer a muzzle brake, the military probably won't.
ztf HITMAN
09-16-09, 19:18
First you might want to go back and re-read Dapimpspimp's post. It's all what your looking for and what your comfortable with. Personally I think the advantages of a break far outweigh the negatives especially in an home defense situation. So for me that is what I would use for an AR in HD. But even better would be a shotgun or a handgun.
Did go back and read it. Point taken. I do agree that the rewards probably outweigh the risks. I do disagree about the AR/shottie/handgun thing, though. I would grab the .40 and run to the M&P 15. I have confidence in hitting the target ~7yds (HD situation)
How is the Miculek brake?
aftermath686
09-17-09, 00:32
Did go back and read it. Point taken. I do agree that the rewards probably outweigh the risks. I do disagree about the AR/shottie/handgun thing, though. I would grab the .40 and run to the M&P 15. I have confidence in hitting the target ~7yds (HD situation)
How is the Miculek brake?
I too am more confident on my rifle than anything else. But in a home defense situation, over penetration is a big factor to consider. Also maneuverability. Personally I choose my M&P 45/SF X300 with some Hornady TAP. I am confident at the ranges that I would encounter inside my house with that, and even outside. Shotguns are great obviously because you shouldn't miss even under stress. Overall your right, it comes down to what your most comfortable with.
Great insight / first-hand info.
Also found this spiffy / informative thread. Click here:
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WeaponEvolution.com/IMG_7494%201028%20WEVO.jpg (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9424)
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