Am I out of line...

[USMC0351]

For thinking this guy doesn't know what he's talking about? It's the basic .223 vs 5.56 conversation and this guy is dead set that they are the same.


You've been instructed in something that simply isn't true
OR isn't entirely true for the reasons you were instructed to believe.

Dimensionally the 5.56x45 NATO is identical to the 223remington cartridge.

Yeah there are slight differences, in the chamber throat that allows the longer bullets and the crimped primer as well as slightly thicker brass
cases, but in general those differences are immaterial.

Pressure wise it is different, but primarily because the pressure specification is measured differently and with different pressure units ("PSI" measured with a piezio electric measurement system for the NATO, "CUP" Copper Units of Pressure measured with a ported chamber and a copper slug that gets crushed)

THE difference is in bullet weight and the necissary twist rate to stabilize that longer and heavier bullet.

So while 5.56NATO ammunition can be safely shot in a 223REM chambered firearm, it should not imply that the bullets will be stabilized by the typically slower twist rate of the 223REM firearm.

I've shot SS109 NATO spec ammo in my Remington 700VSSF bull barrel varmint rifle, it shoots completely normally. however once that steel core semi-armor piercing bullet leaves the barrel very different things happen from what you'd expect....

The SS109 bullet is tail-heavy by design and it needs a 1:8" twist to stabilize it, my Remington bolt action rifle has a much slower 1:12" twist rate.

at 100yards NONE of 20 bullets fired will strike a 2ft square target sheet.

At 200yards I'd give you my rifle and a box of 20 rounds and I'd sit in front of the target stand reading a book and listen to the bullets whistle by, because NONE of them will land within 6feet of point of aim.

at 300yards you can completely miss a full size econoline parked broadside with 20 rounds.

Frankly even at 25yards out of my rifle more than half of the bullets make perfect broadside sillouette shaped holes in a target
at 50yards ALL of them do.

Shooting the 40-55grain bullets the rifle was designed to shoot I can make you a souvineer smiley face out of a 1" target pasting dot with five shots (three for the smile two more for the eyes) at 100yards even on a windy day
at 200yards I have yet to miss anything larger than a golfball
(I scatter a couple dozen golfballs between the 200yard and 300yard target stands and chip shoot them past the 300yard target stands, it makes for a fun game)

It is institutional practice for Military personel to be misled about the interchangability of civilian ammunition to curtail the all-too-common
theft of small arms ammunition.

Frankly, you'e been lied to and are now in the awkward position of defending a lie that is not your own. Semper Fi?
Unless you choose to make it your own?

As a question again: Semper Fi?

AND unless you want to argue with people who've been working
with firearms and ammunition for far longer than your instructor
has known how to drink out of an uncovered cup without spilling it
all over himself.... There a lot of info out there, that you simply haven't been exposed to yet.

Just because someone told you something doesn't make it true
so you need to be a bit less "positive" about repeating every thing
you've been taught until you see it physically demonstrated as
being true.

[kwelz]

I just grazed over what he wrote but what I read would indicate he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[USMC0351]

He brings up a point of using SS109 "heavy-tailed" bullets in his 1/12 twist bolt rifle. And it fires fine, but is inaccurate. Wonder if he's heard of M193?

[USMC0351]

I underlined and made the text bold on the things that raised a red flag in my mind. Since when did the Military mention ANYTHING about .223Rem? Not while I was in.

[rifleman2000]

Here is one error.

5.56mm ammo cannot be safely shot in .223 firearms.

.223 can be shot in 5.56mm firearms.

[glockeyed]

and he is referencing twist rate to bullet, not the barrel

and i want to see the rig he is making smilie faces with.:cool:

[PRGGodfather]

Completely full of crap.

[Bubba FAL]

Have to throw the bullshit flag on this one. Guy is totally screwed up.

The only reason he's getting away with shooting 5.56 loads in a .223 chamber is that he's doing it in a bolt gun. Still asking for trouble.

SS109 needs a 1:8 twist?! Hmm, I'll have to tell my M4 about that, it does just fine with a 1:9 twist. My mini-14 absolutely loves to eat 62 gr. Wolf, and I doubt the twist on it is any faster than 1:10.

Wonder if anyone took him up on his offer to sit on the target line? From what he describes, I bet he boogered up the crown on his barrel...

[Madnik]

This:

"Dimensionally the 5.56x45 NATO is identical to the 223remington cartridge."

Does not agree with this:

"Yeah there are slight differences..."

And that wasn't far into the argument.

[Don Robison]

Not only is the guy a pompous ass and an idiot; he doesn't know a damn thing about what he's spouting.

[CarlosDJackal]

The guy's a moron. But is it realy worth your time to address his bovine excrement? :confused:

[Ridge_Runner_5]

What a dumbass...everyone knows that for a properly shaped smile, you need 4 or 5 shots...

[Bubba FAL]

The guy's a moron. But is it realy worth your time to address his bovine excrement? :confused:

Generally, no, were it not for one thing. This kind of crap gets spread around (ie, 5.56N can safely be fired in a .223 chamber) and someone's gonna get hurt. Not everyone is technically astute enough to recognize the error in the statement.

He is correct in his assertion that the two cases are dimensionally the same, but the longer leade of the 5.56 chamber is critical to handling higher pressure loads. Coupled with generally tighter headspace and chamber dimensions of the .223, a load that is safe in a 5.56 chamber could be a kaboom in a .223 chamber. Most times, all you'll see is a popped primer and/or blown extractor, but a lot depends on the pressure curve of the load in question - hot, high pressure gas is not something you want to have blowing back in your face. To paraphrase Murphy - if it can happen, it will happen eventually.

[bkb0000]

i still dont even know what his point it- is it that you can fire 556 in a 223? he certainly didn't make a case for it if that's it.. or maybe that 223 and 556 are the same? he acknowledged they are NOT the same in his next paragraph.. sounds like somebody who is making an argument just to make one.. without any real point.

i would ignore and move on.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

5.56 has higher pressure than .223. Can cause failures in the chamber..

[USMC0351]

Someone was selling 5.56 ammo, and I asked if it was actually 5.56 or .223. Then someone said that they are the same, and I went into the differences between them, and this guy posts this up.

[Alpha Sierra]

This:

"Dimensionally the 5.56x45 NATO is identical to the 223remington cartridge."


Speaking of the cartridge itself, that is true. Speaking of chamber dimensions, not, it is not.

[Alpha Sierra]

5.56 has higher pressure than .223. Can cause failures in the chamber..


The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .223 Remington is 52,000 C.U.P. or 55,000 PSI.
Source: Accurate Arms reloading manual's page for .223 Remington (http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/Standarddata(Rifle)/22Cal(5.56mm)/223%20Remington%20pages%20185%20to%20187.pdf)



CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M193
Type Classification:
STD - AMCTC 5143.
Use:
Rifles, 5.56mm, M16 and M16A1. The cartridge is
intended for use against personnel and unarmored
targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a plain
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A066
UNO serial number ............0012
UNO proper shipping
name ...............................Cartridges for
weapons, inert projectile
Weight ................................182 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze....................................NA
Explosive:
Type ...............................NA
Weight ............................NA
Incendiary:
Type - ..............................NA
Weight ............................. NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844 or
CMR 170
Weight .............................28.5 or 26.5 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................56 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure...............52,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3250 fps, 15 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V

Source: TM43-0001-27


CARTRIDGE, 5.56MM, BALL, M855
Type Classification:
STD - MSR 05826003.
Use:
Machine Gun, 5.56mm, M249E1; and Rifle, 5.56mm,
M16A2. The cartridge is intended for use against
personnel and unarmored targets.
Description:
BALL Cartridge. The cartridge is identified by a green
bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC...............................1305-A059
UNO serial number .............0012
UNO proper shipping
name...................................Cartridges for
weapons, inert projectile
Weight ................................190 gr
Length.................................2.26 in. (57.4 mm)
Tracer .................................NA
Primer.................................Percussion
Fuze ...................................NA
Explosive:
Type ................................NA
Weight .............................NA
Incendiary:
Type ...............................NA
Weight .............................NA
Propellant:
Type ...............................WC 844
Weight ............................26.1 gr
Projectile:
Weight .............................62 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure ..............55,000 psi
Velocity ..............................3025 fps, 78 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG.................................1.4S
Storage code ......................Class V
DOT shipping class .............C
DOT designation .................SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number .................9342862
References:
DARCOM 700-3-2
TM 9-1300-206
TM 9-1305-201-20&P

Source: See M193

So no, the max chamber pressures are not greater for military ammo, provided each is fired in the correct chamber.

[USMC0351]

Well I'm done with this guy. I pointed him to this site to learn something from the people that know more than I do, and this is what he says:


Your Joker idiots couldn't even read into the quoted text to see that I'm using a 1:12.


The difference in pressure standards between the cartridges is basically an illusion/misconception based
mostly on the fact that the pressure standards for the cartridges are based on completely different measurement methods, that produce similar but different numbers.

for an identical pressure number the PSI standard
will produce a larger number than older saami standards which use "CUP" or "copper units of pressure"

Rifling twist IS part of the SAAMI standard and the 5.56 uses a different standard.

And lastly the SS109 ammo was fired PURELY for expiremental purposes.

The rifle shoots superely well with bullets for which it is DESIGNED.

there is no safety issue in a bolt action rifle.

My extreemly strong bolt action rifle will safely take loads that would turn an M4 M16(any model) into an expanding cloud of fragments

The dimensions of a live 223 round and a 5.56round ARE identical. as are the dies used to size the brass
during manufacture and the dies used for resizing cartridge cases.

what is different is the CHAMBER spec
the chamber of a semi-auto or full auto rifle
is wider at the back of the chamber
and has greated leade included at the beginning of the chamber as well as a more generous neck
all things that degrade accuracy in favor of reliable feeding and more importantly reliable extraction/ejection.

a 3000psi pressure difference is immaterial in any bolt action rifle

Consider this, does my remington receiver some how magically "know" that it's chambered for a 52,000CUP
223Rem or a 55,000PSI 5.56NATO or for that matter a 64,000psi magnum cartridge?

IF you think so you sir are not as smart as I've given you credit for.

and using a bunch of internet chair jockeys as a rebuttal? Oh, please.

I've been shooting reloading and hunting
for longer than you've been on this earth

I've easily got a half a dozen rifles that I bought new before you were born.
And it's likely I've got more trigger time than everyone who replied to your topic combined.

Other than pistol ammo I don't think I've fired a single round of factory ammo since Ronald Reagan was president.

as for your mentioning (and someone else mentioning)M183 ammo why on earth would I want to shoot
FMJ ammo in a bolt action varmint rifle except to create fireformed brass for reloading with proper varmint bullets that come apart if they strike anything as "solid" as a grape?

Yes, M183 shoots fine in my 1:12, but so what
I want the bullet to come apart on "woody the woodchuck" not pass through and poke a hole in someone's cow further downrange.

You military or "Tactical" guys really crack me up.


AD

[Shotdown]

Hmm. Maybe the manufacturers that made them don't know what they are talking about.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=72&sID=75&pID=1
Hornady TAP: "NOTE: NOT for use in 223 REM chambered guns."

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx
Federal XM193: " • WARNING: For use in standard 5.56 mm chambers. Do not use in non-standard 5.56 chambers"

[glockeyed]

Hmm. Maybe the manufacturers that made them don't know what they are talking about.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/more_detail.php?id=72&sID=75&pID=1
Hornady TAP: "NOTE: NOT for use in 223 REM chambered guns."

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx
Federal XM193: " • WARNING: For use in standard 5.56 mm chambers. Do not use in non-standard 5.56 chambers"


thats because this guy has been shooting before federal, and hornady have been around.

[Alpha Sierra]

So, nobody is going to comment on objective, verifiable evidence posted here that the chamber pressure standards for commercial .223 and USGI M193 and M855 is either the same (M855) or lower (M193)?

Or does that bit of verifiable information contradict local dogma that 5.56 is "greater pressure" than .223, so it is therefore ignored?

If someone has information that contradicts Accurate Arms and the USGI ammo tech manual, please post it.

Maybe NATO has a higher pressure standard than the US Government. But until I see a document that spells out what that pressure is, I remain skeptical.

[sjohnny]

My understanding is that those pressures are based on firing the round through a gun with the proper corresponding chamber. Firing 5.56 through a 5.56 chamber results in that pressure. Firing 5.56 through a .223 chamber will result in higher pressures due to the shape of the chamber.

[bkb0000]

thats always been my understanding. i guess we need to get more verification, becuase i can only parrot that same statement.

its been my understanding that firing nato ammo through a .223 rem chamber icnreases chamber pressure to ~75,000psi.. getting close to HPT pills.

[Alpha Sierra]

My understanding is that those pressures are based on firing the round through a gun with the proper corresponding chamber. Firing 5.56 through a 5.56 chamber results in that pressure. Firing 5.56 through a .223 chamber will result in higher pressures due to the shape of the chamber.

That is my understanding as well.

But something still does not add up. While chamber dimensions are different with SAAMI specs having a shorter (by how much I do not remember) leade than NATO, CASE dimensions are AFAIK the same.

So if SAAMI and NATO pressure limits essentially are the same, and case dimensions are the same, and chamber dimensions differ only in leade (throat) length, the only dimensional difference that can make a difference in pressure is cartridge length from head to bullet ogive, since the ogive is the first part of the bullet to contact the rifling origin.

That would mean that SAAMI OAL spec is shorter than NATO when measure from the head to the ogive (not to the bullet tip).

[dcs12345]

Some people believe think they are smart, but what they say doesn't always back up their view of themselves.

[warpigM-4]

sometimes you just can't argue with Stupid.they wouldn't get it ,even if it blows up in their face:D(no pun intended ...ok maybe a little)

[Alpha Sierra]

Some people believe think they are smart, but what they say doesn't always back up their view of themselves


sometimes you just can't argue with Stupid.they wouldn't get it ,even if it blows up in their face(no pun intended ...ok maybe a little)

Replies worthy of TOS......

[warpigM-4]

Replies worthy of TOS......

it was a Joke(Note the smiley face) .Not a attack on you .Point is I myself would not shoot 5.56 out of a 223 rifle .can it be done? yes ?has it been done? yes! .will I do it? NO.because with the luck I have it would be that one time it doesn't go well