View Full Version : Iraqi insurgents using Austrian rifles from Iran
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The Steyr HS50 is a long range, high precision rifle
Iraqi insurgents using Austrian rifles from Iran
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:58am GMT 13/02/2007
Austrian sniper rifles that were exported to Iran have been discovered in the hands of Iraqi terrorists, The Daily Telegraph has learned.
More than 100 of the.50 calibre weapons, capable of penetrating body armour, have been discovered by American troops during raids.
A Steyr HS50 rifle, Austrian supplied rifles, arms trade, Iran equipping Iraq insurgents
The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.
The sale was condemned in Washington and London because officials were worried that the weapons would be used by insurgents against British and American troops.
Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon.
Over the last six months American forces have found small caches of the £10,000 rifles but in the last 24 hours a raid in Baghdad brought the total to more than 100, US defence sources reported.
The find is the latest in a series of discoveries that indicate that Teheran is providing support to Iraq's Shia insurgents.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, yesterday denied that Iran had supplied weapons to Iraqi insurgents. But on Sunday US officials in Baghdad displayed a range of weapons they claimed had originated in Iran.
They said 170 American and British soldiers had been killed by such weapons.
The discovery of the sniper rifles will further encourage those in Washington who want to see Iran's uranium-enriching facilities destroyed before a nuclear weapon is produced.
The Foreign Office expressed "serious concerns" over the sale of the rifles last year and Britain protested to the Austrian government.
A Foreign Office spokesman said last night: "Although we did make our worries known the sale unfortunately went ahead and now the potential that these weapons could fall into the wrong hands appears to have happened."
The rifle can pierce all body armour from up to a mile and penetrate armoured Humvee troop carriers.
It is highly accurate and fires a round called an armour piercing incendiary, a bullet that the Iranians manufacture.
The National Iranian Police Organisation bought the rifles allegedly to use them against drug smugglers in an £8 million order placed with Steyr in 2005.
The company was given permission to export them by the Austrian government, which is not a Nato member.
Nathan_Bell
02-12-07, 22:18
Well, I guess if you have a socialist economic system, you have to make your money where you can.
Sadly, this act will be used by US anti-gunners to try and get us to comply with the UN's small arms treaty that we were the only dissenter on.
This came to light last year. Doing business is one thing, but selling to a terrorist state is another.
Guys lets make one thing clear: Steyr sold these .50 rifles to Iran in February 2004, that is nearly one year before that Ahmadinedschad asshole was elected 2005!! The deal was immediately stopped by Steyr a few days after his first public hate speech and after State Department delivered further info on the new government. Remember, even the US government had high hopes for Iran before the last election! Iran was then rated from a so-so country to a total export ban country within days by the Austrian Arms export agency.
Best Regards
Cato
PS: Just heard a radio interview with Steyr's new CEO. So far they haven't gotten an official US inquiry on the serial numbers to help trace the weapons way. Its just this newspaper article- no proof that these are really the rifles delivered to Irans border patrol
Don't you think that ragheads who are famous for copying MP5s could also copy a much simpler built .50 single loader rifle?
Cato
What, do you have some affiliation with Steyr, or Austrian approval authority?
Lets get one thing clear, Iran was well known to be supplying counter Coalition forces in late 2003... new Iranian munitions and weapons were all over the place in late 2003. Why did the US & UK protest the sale... hmnnn....
Iran didn't "copy" the HK series weapons. The germans came in and set up their factories, they are license produced.
The Iranians were unable to produce precision .50's and so got the usual euro's sell outs to sell them blood goods.
See 170 out of 3000 something dead, so almost 6% of casulties can be tied to one POS company & deal. I hope some legal beagles slay Steyr.
rubberneck
02-13-07, 10:30
If this is true than I will never buy a Steyr product, ever. Even if people had hopes of a new Iran ahead of their elections, they have a very long a rich tradition of supporting terrorists world wide.
Selling a .50 Cal weapon to a country with a history of ties to terrorism is irresponsible. To do so when when the country in question is openly hostile to one of your allies is actively engaged in a conflict in the region at the time is deplorable. It was a very poor choice by Steyr regardless of the circumstances.
Guys lets make one thing clear: Steyr sold these .50 rifles to Iran in February 2004, that is nearly one year before that Ahmadinedschad asshole was elected 2005!! The deal was immediately stopped by Steyr a few days after his first public hate speech and after State Department delivered further info on the new government. Remember, even the US government had high hopes for Iran before the last election! Iran was then rated from a so-so country to a total export ban country within days by the Austrian Arms export agency.
Best Regards
Cato
PS: Just heard a radio interview with Steyr's new CEO. So far they haven't gotten an official US inquiry on the serial numbers to help trace the weapons way. Its just this newspaper article- no proof that these are really the rifles delivered to Irans border patrol
Don't you think that ragheads who are famous for copying MP5s could also copy a much simpler built .50 single loader rifle?
Before their current president was elected they were nabbing British sailors on Iraqi waterways. Iran's politics aren't decided by the president who is a figurehead. They are decided by the mullahs who fix the elections to pick a president.
Seems that more countries were of the same opinion, that Iran
around 2004 wasn't the big enemy:
An internal U.N. summary of the program lists France and Britain as providing night vision equipment, mobile global positioning systems, computers and body armor to help Iranian anti-smuggler attempts. Iranian officials confirmed such items were shipped. A diplomat familiar with the program described the shipments of sensitive equipment as ``likely in the hundreds.''
In London, the Foreign Office confirmed 250 night vision goggles were approved by the British government two years ago for use by Iranian border patrols along the Afghan border.
Another shipment of 50 body armor vests and 100 body armor plates was en route as of last week, as part of British help to Iran that's exempt from a strict embargo and arms and related material, said Foreign Office officials.
Diplomats with access to Iranian program material said other exemptions to the British embargo in recent years have included parts originally manufactured for military aircraft engines that Iran said it needed for its oil and gas industries, aircraft instrumentation components and gas turbine parts that also had possible military applications.
Btw, I don't work for Steyr or the Austrian export agency.
Seems that more countries were of the same opinion, that Iran
around 2004 wasn't the big enemy:
Btw, I don't work for Steyr or the Austrian export agency.
Interesting that Britain opposed the sale. And France? Come on, it's France. They'd sell guns to people who wanted to kill their own mothers.
Even if the sale was completed in February of 2004, the shipment of goods could have been stopped.
Like I said, I know for a fact that in 2004 Iran was nabbing Brit sailors on Iraqi waterways. They were causing trouble and we knew it, the Brits knew it. That's why both nations opposed the sale way back in 2004.
And who wants to guess how many pairs of British Night Vision Goggles were captured by the Israelis in Lebanon............
Cato
You can try to blither on about how legal selling .50 offensive weapons, on your country's part, was, but it passes no test of reason.
Interdiction of drug smugglers may in fact use : NODs, body armor, or even small arms.... .50 caliber 2000 meter sniper systems.. don't think so.
I'm not trying to get into tinfoil hat/conspiracy land, but how could they be that stupid? Allowing a traceable, specialty item get dessiminated to piss-pot terrorists? There are plenty of sneakier ways to kill your enemies by proxy. I don't think we ever denied giving Stingers to Afghanistan - it strikes me as odd that they would deny involvement and then make so many ham-handed forays into getting involved.
I'm not trying to get into tinfoil hat/conspiracy land, but how could they be that stupid? Allowing a traceable, specialty item get dessiminated to piss-pot terrorists? There are plenty of sneakier ways to kill your enemies by proxy. I don't think we ever denied giving Stingers to Afghanistan - it strikes me as odd that they would deny involvement and then make so many ham-handed forays into getting involved.
But if you are trying to set the piss pot terrorists up to be a better force like the Hezzies, you need to arm them. Steyr should have never done the deal. It is well known that there is not other terrorist network like Iran's. Not even Al Queda. As for citing the UN, you cannot go by what they say on anything.
Cato shows true colors at www.lightfighter.net : clearly he thinks it ok to sponser the killing of US troops. I would hope he doesn't troll here anymore, perhaps looking for tactical/equipment tips to further anti US interest.
Fstick: "Cato, was the 8 million gross sale worth the lives of the 170 Coalition soldiers killed? "
Cato: As if we already know that these rifles are really the ones Steyr sold to Iran's
border patrol and as if these are the only .50 rifles in the region. Bet the bullet doesn't say "Steyr" on it. Come on!
Btw, I hoped you would read the quote from the article. Even the "best friend" of the US in the coalition of the willing, Great Britain, gave a shit about the embargo to arm the Iran border patrol. I guess NV-equipment can do A LOT of harm too if used by terrorists?
Moral obligations are bullshit- many Europeans think the USA is under one to sign the Kyoto protocol. Quite absurd, isn't it? Anyway, as long as the USA provides arms to regimes like Saudi-Arabia, worldwide sponsor #1 of radical islam (wahabism), or authoritarian ruled Uzbekistan, NO one is under any moral obligations unless he signs a treaty or there is a UN arms boycott. If the USA has the right to arbitrarily sort the "good guys" from the "bad guys", so has every other country. And Austria stopped the sale when the State Department asked for it. I don't think the USA would do the same for us if we asked them to not support totalitarian or authoritarian regimes any moreas a matter of principle.
Selling anything to Iran is a nonstarter, no problem.
But his assertion is correct that we have supplied the tools of lots and lots of murder and state terrorism. Central America is a good example. I am not denying the complexity of the political issues, but the fact remains we give weapons to people who are only slightly better than the Communists or nutjobs they are fighting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we GAVE Israel M16's like crackerjack prizes and their human rights record is stellar, right?
The only reason Steyr is dorked up is because Americans were killed because, to me, American lives are more valuable than other lives. But the fact remains that we supply weapons that are used to kill dissidents - maybe a Commie insurgent today, maybe a retarded peasant on his way home next week.
Thanks for the quote. My basic argument runs like this:
a) international arms trade is per se a messy thing, because those who want them most, shouldn't get them, but the others don't want them. Predicting who is going ballistic next isn't easy. In Austria there is a whole export agency trying to weigh the pros/cons (yes, they ****ed up this time). I would venture the guess that, as a society over the last decade, Saudi-Arabia has done more for the profileration of radical islam and even international terrorism than Iran. But opinions differ here, no problem. The .50 deal wasn't smart, thats clear, but in the bigger picture of providing arms to shady regimes, Austria isn't exactly a big player.
b) judging from what I have read, there seems to have been an agreement to outfit the Iranian border patrol, undergunned in its war on drugs, with modern equipment. Even GB- the most reliable ally of the USA- took part in it by selling NV-equipment.
c) So far we only have a newspaper article- no request to help ID the serial numbers. As long as we don't know anything for sure, IMHO the principle in dubio pro reo should be used in judging Steyr.
Nathan_Bell
02-17-07, 16:22
So what basis should we use to judge Glock (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/16/europe/EU-GEN-Austria-Iran.php)?
ETA Above link's story is in error. A correction came out the it is IraQ not IraN getting the Glocks
So what basis should we use to judge Glock (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/16/europe/EU-GEN-Austria-Iran.php)?
I just read that this story is incorrect.
The 30,000 Glocks are really going to the Iraqi Interior Ministry (Which means they will be used by sectarian death squads).
Nathan_Bell
02-17-07, 18:46
I just read that this story is incorrect.
The 30,000 Glocks are really going to the Iraqi Interior Ministry (Which means they will be used by sectarian death squads).
If that is the case GLock and Austria has a major brushfire to put out, as AP has picked this story up.
Obviously the british "quality" press is not able to differ between Iran and Iraq. At least they corrected it fast:
www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/17/europe/EU-GEN-Austria-Iran.php
Corrective: Austria-Iran story
The Associated Press
Published: February 16, 2007
VIENNA, Austria: In stories Feb. 16 and Feb. 17 about weapons sales, The Associated Press, citing Austrian news media reports, erroneously reported that Austrian authorities approved the export of 30,000 handguns to Iran. The weapons were sold to Iraq, not Iran.
Even if there is the danger that these guns are used by death squads- I guess normal police officers
shouldn't run around unarmed in Iraq?
Obviously the british "quality" press is not able to differ between Iran and Iraq. At least they corrected it fast:
www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/17/europe/EU-GEN-Austria-Iran.php
I'm glad they made the correction rather quickly.
Even if there is the danger that these guns are used by death squads
That would not be an Austrian or Glock problem. It's the Iraqi Interior Ministry thats at fault. The entire organization has been heavily infiltrated by sectarian militias and is blamed for much of the sectarian violence, corruption, and numerous human rights violations.
Nathan_Bell
02-18-07, 08:22
I'm glad they made the correction rather quickly.
That would not be an Austrian or Glock problem. It's the Iraqi Interior Ministry thats at fault. The entire organization has been heavily infiltrated by sectarian militias and is blamed for much of the sectarian violence, corruption, and numerous human rights violations.
Wow, sounds like the department of state here in the US.
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