View Full Version : Rob Haught Shotgun AAR
Just got back from Rob's Shotgun class in Marietta Ohio. This was my first formal shotgun training class. I ran a Benelli M4 (one of two autoloaders in the class) with an Aimpoint C3 and a BFG Vickers Padded sling.
Preface:
I am NOT a "shotgun guy." I do not believe it is the best choice as a defensive tool and have pretty much hit the "delete button" on it for most of my adult life. To quote Vickers: "WTF do I need a shotgun for?" Was he right???
Having known Rob for a couple years now, I knew him to be an expert/guru with the shotgun and of course a fan of it (which I respected). So I went to the class with the intention of embracing the shotgun as a defensive weapon. Being open minded is always the best way to absorb information.
As an instructor Rob did a very good job. Few instructors can present information in a proper manner, back up what they teach by performing and also entertain the class. Rob did all three of these well I think. He had a good mix of instruction coupled with interesting .Gov stories.
Rob's technique of reducing felt recoil by 50% works AS advertised. So well that you can shoot a 12GA SG flat footed (weight on heels), square to the target with the SG stock on TOP of your shoulder and you will not be pushed back! :eek:
The other technique that Rob has come up with is the "CQB" position. This GREATLY shortens the OA length of the SG making it much more user friendly when clearing a room. Since I was running a Benilli M4, the stock was WAY too long. With this technique, I was able to really shorten the SG up and effectively put rounds on target from 12yds out!
Some of the other things of interest were his ability to select a slug and get it into the weapon VERY quickly. Got some cool drills for shooting and reloading that will make most people admit defeat. :D
Rob talked about how to properly "pattern" your shotgun so that you understand the effective range of it. We also discussed ammo selection and the use of 7 1/2-8shot for home defense. Both Rob and Ken Hackathorn (who showed up to run the shoot house) believe that this is a good load for targets that are at rooms length. At these distances, the 7 or 8 shot will be very destructive and have little concern of killing people in the next room or apartment. If you are outside of a "normal" room distance, than this load is NOT a good idea.
IMHO, the best deployment for this load is create a barricade position in a room (making the bad guy come to you so that you can control the distance fired).
If you are a "SG Guy" or just curious about what you can do with one, then I would HIGHLY suggest taking a class from Rob. You will learn a lot, have a much better appreciation for the SG (which I now do) and be able to better deploy it.
Some thoughts on autoloaders VS pump guns. My M4 had ZERO malfunctions and I believe the other shooter that was running an auto had two (which were user induced). The majority of the pump guns had a malfunction that the user induced by short stroking the gun. We saw this particularly bad in the shoot house when everyone's adrenaline was running high.
The question I have now running in my head is the auto SG a better choice (especially in times of stress)?? Talking with some of the other guys at the class, the answer MIGHT be a yes. IMHO, a QUALITY auto is superior for MY needs than is a pump gun YMMV.
C4
Range
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Range.jpg
Rob Haught
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_Talking.jpg
What happens when you shoot a SG normally.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RG_Incorrect.jpg
Proper technique applied
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_Shooting.jpg
Showing students how much pressure needs to be to the rear.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Pressure_To_Rear.jpg
Rob explaining his technique.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_PP_Technique.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/TEMP_Shooting.jpg
Rob's CQB Technique
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB2.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB3.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RB_CQB4.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB5.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB6.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_CQB7.jpg
C4
What'd you do, hand out m4carbine.net hats to everyone before the class started?
As to the shotgun in general, is it safe to say that you didn't know what you didn't know? ;)
Class trying the CQB technique
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Class_CQB.jpg
Box drills
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_Box.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_Box1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_Box.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_Box1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Barry_Box.jpg
C4
What ammo did you run for the class? Shooting 00 or 4buck could get expensive in a hurry. Were you guys using 7 or 8 shot during the class?
Also, if possible, not to give away all the secrets, but what is it that he's teaching? I've not been real big into defensive shotguns either, but I had a guy show me a push/pull technique that seems to tame recoil quite a bit. Also seemed to help eliminate short stroking as there was a very deliberate and exagerated change in motion when chambering a round.
Thanks for the write up.
What'd you do, hand out m4carbine.net hats to everyone before the class started?
As to the shotgun in general, is it safe to say that you didn't know what you didn't know? ;)
Most everyone in the class had an M4C hat already. ;)
I have been around shotguns most of my life (rabbit hunter and SKEET range officer for 10yrs). I mostly viewed them as a hunting tool though.
So the class gave me a better understanding of what they can and cannot do.
Will a shotgun be replacing my AR and pistol for HD? No. Can I now use a SG in a CQB environment and handle myself? Sure can.
C4
What ammo did you run for the class? Shooting 00 or 4buck could get expensive in a hurry. Were you guys using 7 or 8 shot during the class?
Also, if possible, not to give away all the secrets, but what is it that he's teaching? I've not been real big into defensive shotguns either, but I had a guy show me a push/pull technique that seems to tame recoil quite a bit. Also seemed to help eliminate short stroking as there was a very deliberate and exagerated change in motion when chambering a round.
Thanks for the write up.
I ran Winchester AA 7 1/2 load, Winchester Military 00 Buck and Winchester rifled slugs.
In regards to the buck and slug, I tried to follow what the Military and LE units would use.
We used 7-8 shot for most of the class.
You basically use your hands in a 70/30 strength ratio to remove recoil from your body.
C4
Gutshot John
09-14-09, 12:40
I really wish I could have made this class but work prevailed.
Will you be hosting Rob again?
I really wish I could have made this class but work prevailed.
Will you be hosting Rob again?
If there is enough interest, we might do another one.
C4
Rob Haught
09-14-09, 14:06
Hello All;
Just wanted to say hello and comment on the program this past weekend. First of all thanks to the students who came so far to train and worked hard all weekend. The WX was perfect and the facility supported the class well with no distractions and all the props needed for this class. This was a particularly talented group who were experienced shooters and veterans of some good training programs. Its a pleasure to work with folks who have a genuine interest in the training and apply themselves. As in all things there will be things you like and things you wont in any program but I think most folks came away with a better understanding of the pros and limitations of the shotgun as a defensive tool and can make a better choice of equipment and weapon platforms. Thanks to Grant and M4Carbine for the logistics. Thanks again for a great weekend.
Rob
Transition Drills
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Class_Transition.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Class_Transition1.jpg
Figure 8 Drills
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_Figure8.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_figure8a.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Choma_Figure8.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_figure8.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Temp_Figure8.jpg
Class Stack
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Class_Stack.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Class_Stack1.jpg
David and Goliath :D
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_Temp.jpg
C4
Hello All;
Just wanted to say hello and comment on the program this past weekend. First of all thanks to the students who came so far to train and worked hard all weekend. The WX was perfect and the facility supported the class well with no distractions and all the props needed for this class. This was a particularly talented group who were experienced shooters and veterans of some good training programs. Its a pleasure to work with folks who have a genuine interest in the training and apply themselves. As in all things there will be things you like and things you wont in any program but I think most folks came away with a better understanding of the pros and limitations of the shotgun as a defensive tool and can make a better choice of equipment and weapon platforms. Thanks again for a great weekend.
Rob
Great class Rob and thanks again for all your hard work.
C4
Rob did some patterning with his 14" shotgun at about 18yds to show us the difference between the Federal Flight Control 00 Buck shot and standard Winchester 00 Buck.
The Flight Control Buck was simply amazing and really changes the effective range of 00 Buck.
At about 18yds, buck shot become a liability as you are almost off the target at this distance.
Federal Flight Control 00 Buck @ 12yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Federal_FC_Buck.jpg
Federal Flight Control 00 Buck @ 18yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Federal_FC_Buck_17yds.jpg
Winchester 00 Buck @ 18yds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Winchester_BuckShot.jpg
C4
Jay Cunningham
09-14-09, 15:01
Enjoyed the class very much - new instructor and new weapon type. From previous training with LAV and Hackathorn, Rob's style and take on many issues fell pretty much in line with a lot of what I had learned to date.
I was quite happy with my shotgun, and don't plan on making any changes to it. The only thing I modified during class was a little dab of white metal-marker on the tip of the front sight... I may change this to bright orange.
After close to 300 rounds over a two day period, I have nary a mark on my right shoulder. This is rather amazing as I am 5' 8", 185 lbs., and shot a full-size 12 gauge all weekend. Rob's recoil control method works as advertised.
Cleared up some internet mythology about the weapon and ammo as well - when Rob and Ken both say the same thing, that should be a clue.
Nothing remarkable with ammo with the sole exception of the Federal Flight Control round - rather amazing, actually. This round alone should dictate a solid sighting system on your personal weapon, as it opens up new possibilities.
Thanks again Rob and Grant - great class.
edited to add: Special thanks to Templar for the world's scariest ride in a pickup truck! :D
Hello All;
Just wanted to say hello and comment on the program this past weekend. First of all thanks to the students who came so far to train and worked hard all weekend. The WX was perfect and the facility supported the class well with no distractions and all the props needed for this class. This was a particularly talented group who were experienced shooters and veterans of some good training programs. Its a pleasure to work with folks who have a genuine interest in the training and apply themselves. As in all things there will be things you like and things you wont in any program but I think most folks came away with a better understanding of the pros and limitations of the shotgun as a defensive tool and can make a better choice of equipment and weapon platforms. Thanks to Grant and M4Carbine for the logistics. Thanks again for a great weekend.
Rob
Rob it was nice to be in the class and you are a great instructor and lots of fun. All the guys that I brought to class loved the control of the shotgun they came away with. It was an eye opening experience for us all. The CQB potion that you taught was just unreal. I like to take classes from someone that is a true gun guy and you are that for sure. I would love to have a longer class with more shooting as it is just fun to shoot the shotgun when it is not hurting you! By the end of class I could have shot the rest of the day and all the night. It is fun to take a gun that everyone is afraid of and make it behave. Thank you.
SUPERIOR FIREARMS LLC.
5510 Fern Valley RD. STE 102
Louisville KY. 40228
502-365-2244
At the end of TD2, we (the class) wanted to see how fast we could shoot 5rds out of our guns. Rob went first. He was able to run 5rds out of his gun in the low two second range with what seemed to be little to no effort.
Below are a succession of pics of him doing the drill. Notice the lack of muzzle climb as he runs through the rounds.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds2.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds3.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds5.jpg
This time he did the 5rd drill from the CQB position.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds_CQB1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds_CQB2.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds_CQB3.jpg
Great review and pics.
I am wondering if the CQB position does anything in terms of reducing or increasing the liklihood of shortstroking a pumpgun.
Realize that my only exposure to this position has been through internet pictures and posts.
thanks,
Below are pics of guys running through the shoot house with Ken Hackathorn.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/law_SH.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Law_SH1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Temp_SH.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Temp_SH1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_Sh.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_SH1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_SH2.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Choma_SH.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Choma_SH1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Bob_SH.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_SH1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_SH.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Ben_SH2.jpg
Great review and pics.
I am wondering if the CQB position does anything in terms of reducing or increasing the liklihood of shortstroking a pumpgun.
Realize that my only exposure to this position has been through internet pictures and posts.
thanks,
I would say no. The CQB position can actually create a different type of malfunction where the hull sits straight up in the chamber.
C4
SeriousStudent
09-14-09, 17:40
Grant,
Thanks very much for the photos and the writeup. I have been looking forward to reading this AAR, and training with Chief Haught in the future.
Iraq Ninja
09-14-09, 17:45
I would say no. The CQB position can actually create a different type of malfunction where the hull sits straight up in the chamber.
C4
Grant,
What about when you shoot it left handed?
Was there any discussion of the Saiga style of shotguns? I know they are becoming popular in three gun matches. I own one and am very pleased with its performance and reliability.
NCPatrolAR
09-14-09, 18:00
The class looks awesome and I regret that I couldnt be up there and take part. If there is a round 2, I certainly plan to be there.
When it comes to the Flite Control ammo, I transitioned my personal guns to this load after seeing its effectiveness at work. IMO, the Flite Control load has eliminated the need for having your gun reworked by guys like Hans Vang.
Jay Cunningham
09-14-09, 18:04
The class looks awesome and I regret that I couldnt be up there and take part. If there is a round 2, I certainly plan to be there.
When it comes to the Flite Control ammo, I transitioned my personal guns to this load after seeing its effectiveness at work. IMO, the Flite Control load has eliminated the need for having your gun reworked by guys like Hans Vang.
We were all disappointed that you couldn't make it.
Grant, Rob,
Realy wanted to make it out, but over commited again. Things should be better for the next class.
You point on autos vs. semis Grant. I backed into shotguns after about 8 years in the Infanty. My first shotgun purchase was a 870. My thoughts are casual shooters are better off with a quality semi's, in particular if they use alot of other weapons that are semi's.
If you invest the time in a pump, use a shotgun under extreme conditions or need to use the various specialty rounds, pumps are still king of the hill. For everyone else don't over look a semi because someone told you pumps are the best.
Gutshot John
09-14-09, 19:56
Was there any commentary on recoil reduction stocks like Knoxx?
It seems from the pictures that there weren't that many pistol grips, was there a reason for that?
Jay Cunningham
09-14-09, 19:58
Was there any commentary on recoil reduction stocks like Knoxx?
Superfluous while employing the push/pull technique.
Gutshot John
09-14-09, 20:05
Superfluous while employing the push/pull technique.
So superfluous, but otherwise no downside or problems were reported? Was there a stated preference for a traditional stock as opposed to pistol grips?
Jay Cunningham
09-14-09, 20:12
By the end of the class everyone wanted a short stock. I think PGs were simply personal preference.
Most shotgun aficionados prefer the standard stocks, shortened correctly, with no pistol grip. I've seen many of them use the 870 youth stock.
I used to spend a decent amount of time shooting shotguns and the pistol grip versions beat the crap out of me.
Was there any commentary on recoil reduction stocks like Knoxx?
It seems from the pictures that there weren't that many pistol grips, was there a reason for that?
Nothing on the knoxx stocks. Mostly because they are not needed.
I ran a pistol grip and liked it. In Rob's CQB position, I felt that I had good control on the weapon.
C4
Excellent write up Grant, and thanks for organizing this class. I've always had a "social" shotgun in my armory but never had any formal training with one, and I definitely took away a lot from this class, and any chance to shoot with Ken Hackathorn should not be passed up.
Overall I'm happy with my set up with a couple exceptions....
1) I definitely need to move the rear sling attachment point to the rear of the stock. Currently I'm running a BFG VCAS with a GGG rear sling plate between the receiver and the stock. What I don't like with this arrangement is that it allows the shotgun to swing more than it should when not under manual control, and when transitioning to the left shoulder, it's very possible that the sling will cover the ejection port, inducing a malfunction. This happened to me in the shoot house and I immediately went to my G19, took care of the threat, then ducked back behind cover to clear the malf. Shouldn't have happened in the first place.
2) I am running a 20" Remington IC rifle sighted barrel...which felt like a musket compared to the 14" guns being run. I'm thinking about picking up a 14" factory SBS to keep it's big brother company.
I went into this class with a very open mind, I have always respected the power of the shotgun, to quote Rob, it's "the hammer of God", ammo management has always seemed like an issue for me.
But, to put it in context......the chances of needing more than a magazine of shotgun shells in the civillian world are exceedingly slim, and you should have a way to carry extra ammo on the gun anyway. The same goes for most police applications. With proper training, the shotgun can be an extremely effective tool to have in your arsenal.
I will say that if I do need to clear my house, I'd prefer my 6920 or an AK, but the shotgun offers a lot of advantages, mainly in the reduction of drywall penetration and the sheer capacity to deliver fight stopping wounds.
Thanks again to Rob Haught. Absolutely a top notch instuctor. If you have an opportunity to train with Rob, take it.
I'm still working on uploading pics, and I haven't started with video yet.
Here are some from TD1.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09004.jpg
The amount of energy required in the push-pull technique is basically equivalent to holding the shotgun up with one arm.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09019.jpg
CQB
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09020.jpg
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09064.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09066.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09069.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09070.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09074.jpg
This is what happens when you put a M4 style stock on your Mossberg and don't quite have the shotgun positioned correctly when you drop the hammer.........
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09079.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09080.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09088.jpg
Downtime....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09089.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09091.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09092.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09093.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09094.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09097.jpg
David and Goliath :D
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/Jay_Temp.jpg
C4
Damn. :D
Oh, and my apologies again to Katar for blindly following my Garmin as it attempted to drive us off a cliff and onto an off road course. :mad:
The Dodge Dakota handled it fine though. :cool:
Grant,
What about when you shoot it left handed?
Was there any discussion of the Saiga style of shotguns? I know they are becoming popular in three gun matches. I own one and am very pleased with its performance and reliability.
I had a SAIGA 12 that had been converted to a standard AK stock and pistol grip, with the barrel cut to 18.5", and got rid of it a couple years ago.
I didn't like the inability to top off rounds in the magazine, I didn't like having to carry all those 5 and 8 round Russian mags around, and at the time, there weren't any US made magazines available. I still honestly don't trust the US made mags to hold up over the long haul.
I think they're fun guns, and probably very well suited to 3 gun matches, but for a social gun, I'll stick with a quality pump or more traditional semi auto.
I'm saying this as an "AK Guy" too.....
Downtime....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09089.jpg
For whatever reason, I think that has to be the coolest pic of the bunch. Nice shot Templar.
So, I've been shown a push/pull technique from a police officer friend of mine. It's made shooting the shotgun much more enjoyable since I learned it. Am I to assume this is something that's been around a while? I was shown, (not fully learned) this technique about 2 years ago. I've had a stock Win 1300 Defender for about 4 years and really didn't shoot it until I learned this technique. I've been using Federal 4buck since. Man, I envy you that are close enough to attend these classes. Please understand that if I ask questions about what is going on in these classes, it isn't just because I don't want to go pay for the classes, it's because I live about a bazzilion miles from them. My hope is that they get enough interest to have some out west.
The CQB firing position looks very interesting, but there's a couple of pics earlier that show it that seem to make me believe that there's only a gain of about 2-3" when employed. Is this a camera phenomenon? See below...
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds5.jpg
vs.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds_CQB2.jpg
reference the cone in front of the muzzle. Is this because of when the photo was taken or can the CQB grip shorten up the profile more than what is depicted? I realize it may be a timing of the photo issue so don't think I'm criticizing, I'm not. Just trying to learn. Also, in the CQB mode, is there a necessity to put more forward force on the off hand to counteract the lack of shoulder support? It'd seem logical to assume so.
I also saw a few different pictures of people upending the shotgun to load it. Is that a personal preference or something that makes more sense being you can see the loading port? Personally, I've always loaded from the bottom with my index and thumb. If there's a reason for it, I'd like to know so I can start training it.
Thank you all for the pictures and the write ups. Being out here in the middle of nowhere has it's advantages I guess, but being close to such good training facilities isn't one of them.
Shoot safe!
Jay Cunningham
09-14-09, 22:56
Man, I envy you that are close enough to attend these classes. Please understand that if I ask questions about what is going on in these classes, it isn't just because I don't want to go pay for the classes, it's because I live about a bazzilion miles from them.
Just FYI, Templar drove about nine hours to make this class.
9 vs. 28 hours... I may have to wait for a closer venue. :D
Either way, any information is greatly appreciated.
As an aside....
I've looked into flying to a training event, but many things get in the way. The most prevalent is ammo transportation. The second of which, for me at least, is time. Vacation is becoming more and more in short supply as companies cut back on their "benefits". A Nevada venue would be perfect, but alas, I am but one person. (hint: if you're in the area, joint the training forum for the SW to garner interest out here) Like I said, I envy you all that are close.
Look's like a good class with the best shotgun trainer in the world.. but man some of you guys need to take some mma classes.As a fat body.. like myself( no pics) who got in shape i'm sure it would make a HUGE impact on your firearm training.I know there is only so much time in a day,but man.Also a little blood like that is no biggie( i know i'm doing the my co$k is bigger then your co#c thing) but take some mma classes and try getting hit and get the sh^t knocked out of your nose and getting slammed on the mat... then we will talk.;):D
MR.J
While I am sure your one bad dude, and yes I sport my own share of extra pounds, I assure you that 1 1/4oz of lead will take you right out of the fight no matter how hard and how often you train. I will even let you pick, birdshot, # 4s, Buck or a slug.
As for the school all I can say is great class and awesome instructor. Having been a very accomplished shotgun shooter both on clays, waterfowl, 3-Gun and upland game I definitely was educated on use of the tactical shotgun and its value as a CQB weapon. Rob's class was somewhat more geared to the use of the pump gun which I ran being more of a semi-auto guy. The push/pull method really helps with recoil management. One of the best pieces of info I got out of the class was that in most all cases a shotgun that is 5 plus one and a four round side saddle will handle most all situations and there have really been no known situations where a shotgun deployed in such a manner required additional ammo to solve the intended threat or problem. I have always had concerns on how to manage the shotgun kit and extra ammo. A false concern that I am sure has come from the 3-Gun world where in that "Game" you have to carry in some cases 20 plus rounds. Rob somewhat believes that if it can’t be solved with 10 rounds from your scatter gun then you need a new plan and were way in over your head to begin with.
For me there will be some equipment changes forth coming. A shorter barrel is a must have as well as a reduced length of pull stock. I also will look into the Surefire weapon mounted forend light. Not only for the desire to have white light on my shotgun but to aid in the push/pull. With big hands that large forend is not only comfortable it allows me to get a much better grip to manage the recoil especially in the CQB position. I need to work out the sling thing as well especially so I can shoot more easily on the weak side which is another must as again the shot house has proven. I do believe that your home defense gun is better left without a sling which was confirmed by Ken.
While many here feel that the shotgun may not be there first choice for home defense I do feel it has merit. With pistols and an AR all in reach of the bed what I do like about the shotgun is it is the easiest to learn to shoot and operate. That’s a plus for me with teenagers and the lady of the house just in case I’m not there or sleep through any incident. I am more than confident they can deploy the shotgun and have a better chance of solving the problem with it over the other choices.
For those of you that may just be in the market for a new shotgun don’t hesitate to look at the Mossberg 930 SPX gas gun. Can’t believe I said that after my thoughts on cheap guns but this is a really nice ride. Comes with a few bells and whistles out of the box and it is FAST! I mean FAST! One was run in the class without issue.
It’s always great to meet and shoot with the M4 members and I look forward to the next time we can get trigger time no matter what the platform.
Grant thanks for hosting. Rob, thanks for the training.
You will... have a much better appreciation for the SG (which I now do)...
It brings a tear to my eye to read this. I'm proud of you, Grant. :p
This is what happens when you put a M4 style stock on your Mossberg and don't quite have the shotgun positioned correctly when you drop the hammer.........
I had just remarked to myself that I didn't see any of the telltale signs of a shotgun course; then I saw your photo... There's one in every class! :D
but man some of you guys need to take some mma classes.As a fat body.. like myself( no pics) who got in shape i'm sure it would make a HUGE impact on your firearm training.I know there is only so much time in a day,but man.Also a little blood like that is no biggie( i know i'm doing the my co$k is bigger then your co#c thing) but take some mma classes and try getting hit and get the sh^t knocked out of your nose and getting slammed on the mat... then we will talk.;):D
Remember tough guy -- don't make eye contact!
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn28/greengoddessmsu/jiu_jitsu.jpg
Alright guys, let's keep it on track.
Look's like a good class with the best shotgun trainer in the world.. but man some of you guys need to take some mma classes.As a fat body.. like myself( no pics) who got in shape i'm sure it would make a HUGE impact on your firearm training.I know there is only so much time in a day,but man.Also a little blood like that is no biggie( i know i'm doing the my co$k is bigger then your co#c thing) but take some mma classes and try getting hit and get the sh^t knocked out of your nose and getting slammed on the mat... then we will talk.;):D
I love these posts. There was a pic of Vickers once and some village idiot made the comment about his weight. I have to wonder if that person was standing in front of him would have unzip his pie hole and tell him he was fat.
One of the biggest guys in class is a fighter (trains). I am guessing you would not open your pie hole if he was standing in front of you.
Your posts add nothing to the discussion of ANY value. If you want to discuss working out, there is a forum for that.
C4
Grant,
What about when you shoot it left handed?
Was there any discussion of the Saiga style of shotguns? I know they are becoming popular in three gun matches. I own one and am very pleased with its performance and reliability.
Gravity might change the outcome some, but the one I saw was trapped so fast that I am not sure it would have fallen out.
Not much on the Saiga.
C4
Look's like a good class with the best shotgun trainer in the world.. but man some of you guys need to take some mma classes.As a fat body.. like myself( no pics) who got in shape i'm sure it would make a HUGE impact on your firearm training.I know there is only so much time in a day,but man.Also a little blood like that is no biggie( i know i'm doing the my co$k is bigger then your co#c thing) but take some mma classes and try getting hit and get the sh^t knocked out of your nose and getting slammed on the mat... then we will talk.;):D
While I agree with you that physical fitness & basic health is the #1 most overlooked survival skill by members of this and virtually every other online discussion forum, calling it out here in this thread was pretty uncalled for.
Also, just because any one person may seem to be greatly missing the fitness and health boat doesn't mean they don't have something to offer. A guy could be 200 lbs overweight but an ace armorer and would have knowledge to share. Or a guy could smoke 2 packs a day and still offer valuable insight in terms of shooting and fighting with a firearm.
ETA:
Anyone that wants to discuss the health/weight/fitness issue, let's do it here (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=453795#post453795) and keep it out of this thread.
RogerinTPA
09-15-09, 09:46
Excellent AAR guys. The class looks like fun was had by all.:cool:
Could someone further discuss the recoil management techniques (70/30 and Push pull) used in this class?
Thanks
I have pics from TD2 loaded up now and I'm working on video that I took.
As far as reloading.....as Rob said, you need to be "amphibious"...:D
Be able to load with either your support or strong hand, and a that will have more to do with where you have your ammo placed on you and your shotgun, and whether you go over the receiver or under it depends on if the shells are coming out oriented to the front or rear. This is especially true if you're using some kind of pouch which is carrying the spare ammo loosely.
If I'm loading with my support hand, I'll bring the butt of the shotgun back up and against my ribs and brace it with my "master grip" arm, muzzle slightly up while I'm replenishing the magazine. If I'm using ammo from my strong side, then my support hand is holding the shotgun securely with the muzzle pointing up and to the right as I'm replenishing the magazine.
If you're not shooting, you should be reloading the magazine, conditions permitting.
I took out a California Competition Works 6 shell carrier and wore it on my belt in front of my Glock 19, and I really liked the way it allowed me to reload with a minimum of effort and kept everything where I needed it.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24307/catid/24/California_Competition_Works_Six_Shell_Tactical_Stripper
Zhurdan, I drove a bit less than 9 hours, more like 7, but I understand your frustration. We've had guys come out to classes from Cali, and one of the things you can do about ammo is have it drop shipped to someone who will be attending the class, and then they can bring it out for you. Not a huge deal, and very doable.
Stretz Tactical Inc
09-15-09, 17:10
Where can you find his training schedule?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09052.jpg
First I have seen this Mossy out in the wild. Those are the sights developed for the NYPD, although theirs are on 14" Mossys. If the owner is here could you PM me some thoughts?
If the 930SPX owner is on could you PM me comments please also?
Thanks, sorry for the de-rail:o
I'll need to pull down his scheaduale to
QuietShootr
09-15-09, 21:09
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;453310]At the end of TD2, we (the class) wanted to see how fast we could shoot 5rds out of our guns. Rob went first. He was able to run 5rds out of his gun in the low two second range with what seemed to be little to no effort.
Below are a succession of pics of him doing the drill. Notice the lack of muzzle climb as he runs through the rounds.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/RH_SHOTGUN09/RH_5rds1.jpg
I love that little short gun.
MarshallDodge
09-15-09, 22:21
Good stuff guys.
I like the shotgun as an HD tool. For me it is not as versatile as the carbine because I may need to shoot at longer ranges where I live but in the house, it is tough to beat.
As far as push pull......the energy required to keep the gun up with one arm is enough pulling....you're pushing forward on the forend.
Here's a video of Katar and guys on the line doing two shot drills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qja4Z37kpAo
I'll be posting more pics of TD2 in a bit, and try to upload a few more vids.
TD2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09017.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09017B.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09018.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09019.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09020.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09021.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09022.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09023.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09024.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09025.jpg
TD2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09029.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09030.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09031.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09032.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09033.jpg
Kentucky Crew...it was a pleasure training with you guys.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09003.jpg
Cornbread zee wunderhund.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/TD2/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD29-12-09002.jpg
Where can you find his training schedule?
I don't know that he has one. If we get enough people together, I will put together another class.
C4
Templar it was a pelasure to train with you thank you for the pic.
SUPERIOR FIREARMS LLC.
5510 Fern Valley RD. STE 102
Louisville KY. 40228
502-365-2244
Rob Haught
09-16-09, 13:08
Being a dog guy it was nice to have Cornbread in the class, Ive always liked Blue Heelers and she was a treat!
Stretz Tactical Inc
09-16-09, 13:43
I don't know that he has one. If we get enough people together, I will put together another class.
C4
I'd be interested.
Add me to the list of folks who'd sign up for a Haught shotgun class. Having spent quite a bit of time shooting with Rob and getting quite a lot of personal instruction on running a shotgun, a full 2-day class would be outstanding.
Plus, I need an excuse to get a shorty 12g. :cool:
John_Wayne777
09-16-09, 15:06
Schedule permitting, I'd love to do a shotgun class with Mr. Haught as well.
Well if we can scrape together 10 peeps, I think we could do one.
C4
Gutshot John
09-16-09, 17:07
I'm interested and I can probably find a couple of more guys.
I'm interested and I can probably find a couple of more guys.
We really only need about 10. It would be in the Marietta Ohio.
Will get an e-mail off to Rob and check on dates.
C4
Emergency reload drill TD1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMWfb8yHzv8
It's taking forever to upload these, sorry guys.
I would like to get in on the next one. Please let me know on additional dates. Are you anticipating 09 or 10?
It's taking forever to upload these, sorry guys.
FWIW, I've found photobucket much easier to deal with in this regard than youtube. They even have an ftp uploader that makes it, while not "fast", at least something you can click "start" and leave it alone.
Submariner
09-17-09, 16:54
Grant-Why did you choose a C3 over, say, an H-1?
How did it work for you?
Did Rob have any comments?
Grant-Why did you choose a C3 over, say, an H-1?
How did it work for you?
Did Rob have any comments?
I had a C3 available, it comes w/ the correct mount and is cheaper than the H1.
Rob thinks that the Micro series is a good idea, but he does not run one.
C4
Dave Williams
09-18-09, 10:11
crossgun,
Is that an 870 you are using?:confused:
If so, I think you are going to be hard to beat next time around at Steel.:eek:
My buddies and I had a GREAT time at the Haught class we took a few years ago. We still talk about racing each other to finish loads and get on target faster. Great skill training.
The shoothouse training you lucky guys got was a great bonus!
Dave Williams
Dave
It is a pumper! Only because Rob's push/pull is best suited for pump chucker. Just know that when the timer came out I went and got the X2 out.
Guys like you and Frank have brought out the gamer in me.
Dave Williams
09-20-09, 13:55
:D
LOL
GLOCKMASTER
09-20-09, 18:30
If the dates are right I would drag my ass six hours too Ohio for a RH SG class.
I've participated in Rob's class twice, and each time I found it to be an eye-opening experience as to the capabilities of the shotgun. I regret not having written an AAR in a timely fashion, but I thought I might share my experiences on this thread.
I first became interested in the shotgun due to the fact that it's ubiquitous. Even in denied areas, you can always arm yourself with an old hunting gun where you would be hard pressed to find a serviceable carbine or pistol - much less effective ammo to feed it. And while I don't put a whole lot of stock in the intimidation factor of racking a shotgun, the sound of a milk jug's worth of internal organs exiting your adversary's body should be a deterrent. There's no arguing the amount of firepower a 12ga can bring in a single shot, and the variety of loads provides a lot of versatility in threat engagement. The drawbacks to the shotgun are recoil (especially for a little dude like me) and limited ammo capacity, and those are the exact issues that this course addresses.
The first time around, I made the mistake of bringing 00 buck and the only thing I absorbed was recoil... I didn't master the technique by any means, and I still had a noticeable amount of muzzle flip and recoil hitting my shoulder which slowed down my follow-through/recovery. My shoulder looked like someone had at me with a baseball bat for 2 days. A lot of practice and another course later, I can now say that the 870 is quite possibly my favorite go-to gun. Even at 5'7" and weighing 145lbs, I can manage 4 shots on target in under a second thanks to Rob's push-pull technique. Still nowhere near Rob's territory, but I'm pretty happy with it.
The weapon manipulation skills that you cover in this class address the shotgun's weaknesses and accentuate its strengths. It's been a while since I've trained with Rob, but memorable drills include the stork drill, CQB position and its variations, and the continuity-of-fire drill ("shoot, scoot, boogie" or whatever it's called). It's very confidence inspiring to be able to get hits one-handed while backpedaling (got caught reaching in my dump pouch) and not get knocked on your keister.
I learned a lot about my kit during these courses, and have since refined my old pawn shop 870 setup. The Surefire foreend works great with the push-pull technique, and I found that I prefer a single-point sling on a pump gun to keep from getting my support hand tangled up. The tradeoff is retention and control during transitions. I'm still planning on sending the old gal to Hans Vang for some sights, barrel work and a rail, but the Federal FliteControl wad is very effective even on my improved cylinder barrel. For those of you interested in loads other than 00 buck, Federal has started releasing some interesting loads with the FliteControl wad including #3 steel shot under the name "Black Cloud".
Rob's teaching style and demeanor throughout the course of instruction is nothing but professional. Every now and then, he'll let a crooked grin slip after demonstrating a drill, but it's refreshing to see such class and humility combined with shooting ability. :) And as for the stories, well you'll just have to show up for class for those...
"keel some for me?..."
JeepDriver
09-26-09, 17:29
Great write up and great pics.
I'm trying to get something like this set up around here. It's just proving hard to find a range that will allow this type of shooting in Maryland. I'm awaiting a resopnce from an instructor in VA about the posiblity of a shotgun class.
I've been taking carbine classes and then realized I keep a shotgun for home defense. So training on the shotgun has became a priority.
The question I have now running in my head is the auto SG a better choice (especially in times of stress)??
I have thought the same thing. In a day of auto loaders folks who have not shot a lot of pump guns short stroking or not cycling a new round I imagine could be very likely under stress. I've seen it happen all the time in the duck blind where a semi auto shooter borrows a pump gun makes the shot and attempts another without chambering a new round. I also saw it at one of Awerbuck's classes and have done it myself.
Larry Vickers sounds like Pat Rogers in the regard that neither see why they would pick up a shotgun. I could see their point. Though it seems to be that buckshot or slugs within the range they are most effective have more potential to incapacitate than any 5.56 round.
I posed this same question to a friend of mine that has 1,000 times my knowledge.
If a pump gun is easily short stroked, which makes it not as reliable as a semi-auto and SA shotgun's are not known to be reliable then one might come to the conclusion that a shotgun MIGHT not be the best choice.
Just a thought....
Slug and 00 is "The hammer of GOD!" The problem with it is that it never stops. So killing someone in another is VERY possible.
C4
The question I have now running in my head is the auto SG a better choice (especially in times of stress)??
I have thought the same thing. In a day of auto loaders folks who have not shot a lot of pump guns short stroking or not cycling a new round I imagine could be very likely under stress. I've seen it happen all the time in the duck blind where a semi auto shooter borrows a pump gun makes the shot and attempts another without chambering a new round. I also saw it at one of Awerbuck's classes and have done it myself.
Larry Vickers sounds like Pat Rogers in the regard that neither see why they would pick up a shotgun. I could see their point. Though it seems to be that buckshot or slugs within the range they are most effective have more potential to incapacitate than any 5.56 round.
I would never argue that a semi shotgun is more reliable than a pump, short stroke or not. I own several firearms and of them, the semi auto shotgun is hands down the least reliable. It needs maintained more than any firearm that I own. No chance I would ever count on it in a time of need. Nothing is 100%, but I'll take my chances with a pump!
The question I have now running in my head is the auto SG a better choice (especially in times of stress)??
I have thought the same thing. In a day of auto loaders folks who have not shot a lot of pump guns short stroking or not cycling a new round I imagine could be very likely under stress. I've seen it happen all the time in the duck blind where a semi auto shooter borrows a pump gun makes the shot and attempts another without chambering a new round. I also saw it at one of Awerbuck's classes and have done it myself.
Larry Vickers sounds like Pat Rogers in the regard that neither see why they would pick up a shotgun. I could see their point. Though it seems to be that buckshot or slugs within the range they are most effective have more potential to incapacitate than any 5.56 round.
Remember though that not all SA SG's are created equal. I personally would never buy a SA SG that did not start with the letter "B."
C4
I would never argue that a semi shotgun is more reliable than a pump, short stroke or not. I own several firearms and of them, the semi auto shotgun is hands down the least reliable. It needs maintained more than any firearm that I own. No chance I would ever count on it in a time of need. Nothing is 100%, but I'll take my chances with a pump!
I have shot tens of thousands of rounds from SA shotguns that have started with the letter "B" without any issues so I believe the reliability from experience to be very high and proven.
Yes the majority have been at clay targets where the pressure to perform has been high and failure to operate not an option as money and reputation have been on the line.
I have also used the SA in some of the nastiest weather conditions know. Conditions not even fit for a dog and have never had a problem.
As Grant state, it needs to start with a "B" and there are only two options.
I have shot tens of thousands of rounds from SA shotguns that have started with the letter "B" without any issues so I believe the reliability from experience to be very high and proven.
Yes the majority have been at clay targets where the pressure to perform has been high and failure to operate not an option as money and reputation have been on the line.
I have also used the SA in some of the nastiest weather conditions know. Conditions not even fit for a dog and have never had a problem.
As Grant state, it needs to start with a "B" and there are only two options.
I am in the same boat. My Skeet gun (that starts with a "B") has seen thousands of rounds wtihout a single malfunction. Other SA guns (that do not start with the letter 'B") have not done so well.
C4
edmorseiii
01-06-10, 14:30
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I am considering a 930SPX for HD, and I was wondering how it preformed. It appears to have been shooting an array of different loads during this class.
Thanks
Ed
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I am considering a 930SPX for HD, and I was wondering how it preformed. It appears to have been shooting an array of different loads during this class.
Thanks
Ed
I don't remember the 930SPX having any issues in the class, other than the standard stock has a relatively long length of pull for a combat shotgun.
Great AAR and pics guys. looks like it was ablast and educational as well. hope he comes to the south sometime.
Looks like an awesome class, and I would love to attend someday. The push-pull method is amazingly effective and easy to employ.
However, I do find it interesting that noone seems to take issue (unless I missed it) with the recommendation of bird-shot for home defense when it comes from two known professionals. The average joe would be admonished and insulted for even suggesting such a thing on this forum.
Jay Cunningham
01-17-10, 08:42
Looks like an awesome class, and I would love to attend someday. The push-pull method is amazingly effective and easy to employ.
However, I do find it interesting that noone seems to take issue (unless I missed it) with the recommendation of bird-shot for home defense when it comes from two known professionals. The average joe would be admonished and insulted for even suggesting such a thing on this forum.
You are right and I would have fallen into that same category before the class. Yet what do I know about the employment of shotguns vs. What R_H and K_H know? I would surely be a fool to not carefully consider what they both had to say.
Sometimes there is a disparity in "conventional wisdom" vs. actual experience from subject matter experts. That said, keep in mind the context... this was specifically at room distances, and the suggested load was #4.
However, I do find it interesting that noone seems to take issue (unless I missed it) with the recommendation of bird-shot for home defense when it comes from two known professionals. The average joe would be admonished and insulted for even suggesting such a thing on this forum.
For the record, I would take up any recommendation for birdshot with them, were I there. Not publicly but, during a sidebar.
That said, keep in mind the context... this was specifically at room distances, and the suggested load was #4.
...and #4 is buckshot.
Actually it was #4 shot, as used for pheasants, turkey, etc., not #4 buck.
And, again, they were talking at room distances, not out in the open.
Actually it was #4 shot, as used for pheasants, turkey, etc., not #4 buck.
I'm not a bird hunter so, I'll have to plead ignorance. The difference is...?
#4 birdshot is about half the diameter as #4 buckshot, and there are about five times as many pellets per oz of shot.
Pistol guys!
#4 shot is 0.13 Diameter and there are 135 pellets per ounce.
#4 Buck is 0.24 Diameter and there are 21 pellets per ounce.
Remember an ounce is an ounce but its about holes and leaking. #4 lead shot can do the job.
Smallest to biggest shot 9,8,7.5,6,5,4,3,2,1,BB,BBB,T
Buck Shot smallest to biggest #4,#3,#1, 0, 00, 000
It appears in the pics that almost everyone used 18.5" 870's. Was that the consensus? I am wanting a new shotgun for home defense utilizing bird shot to minimize danger to other family members and neighbors. Just can't decide on either 870P or 590A1. I would love the 14" but don't have the Sheriff's (boss) support and dont' want to circumvent him just for 4.5". Can anyone provide guidance because I can easily locate 590A1's; however, not 870P's.
#4 birdshot is about half the diameter as #4 buckshot, and there are about five times as many pellets per oz of shot.
Pistol guys!
#4 shot is 0.13 Diameter and there are 135 pellets per ounce.
#4 Buck is 0.24 Diameter and there are 21 pellets per ounce.
Thanks guys! I feel smarter already... and won't be using #4 birdshot.
Pistol guys!
Having shot more people than birds with a shotgun makes me a "pistol guy"? ;)
It appears in the pics that almost everyone used 18.5" 870's. Was that the consensus? I am wanting a new shotgun for home defense utilizing bird shot to minimize danger to other family members and neighbors. Just can't decide on either 870P or 590A1. I would love the 14" but don't have the Sheriff's (boss) support and dont' want to circumvent him just for 4.5". Can anyone provide guidance because I can easily locate 590A1's; however, not 870P's.
Remington may have some sort of LE program that could get you an 870P quicker and cheaper, but I don't know much about it.
I really like the 590A1s but bought an 870 because it was impossible to find an 18.5"590A1 at the time, and the 20" just seemed like way too much gun for HD.
You are right and I would have fallen into that same category before the class. Yet what do I know about the employment of shotguns vs. What R_H and K_H know? I would surely be a fool to not carefully consider what they both had to say.
Sometimes there is a disparity in "conventional wisdom" vs. actual experience from subject matter experts. That said, keep in mind the context... this was specifically at room distances, and the suggested load was #4.
I thought that the load(s) specified were 71/2 - 8?
It used to be a pretty standard school of though that bird shot was a good idea for inside the home (room distances). In the past few years the notion of carrying anything less than 00 buck has been labelled an uneducated Fud tactic by most.
Sorry to derail this very good AAR.
Great AAR and pics guys. looks like it was ablast and educational as well. hope he comes to the south sometime.
Rob will be having a class in Fayetteville in Sept. Check Grey Group.
It appears in the pics that almost everyone used 18.5" 870's. Was that the consensus? I am wanting a new shotgun for home defense utilizing bird shot to minimize danger to other family members and neighbors. Just can't decide on either 870P or 590A1. I would love the 14" but don't have the Sheriff's (boss) support and dont' want to circumvent him just for 4.5". Can anyone provide guidance because I can easily locate 590A1's; however, not 870P's.
18" guns were common, but there were several NFA SG's in the class.
I would think VERY carefully about using birdshot. Remember that it is really only affective at room distances. If you have a longer shot, you are screwed.
If you want to do the most damage, but protect your family and neighbors (from a missed shot), shoot an AR with TAP.
C4
I would think VERY carefully about using birdshot. Remember that it is really only maybe affective at room distances. If you have a longer shot, you are screwed.
Fixed that for you. ;)
Jay Cunningham
01-17-10, 22:21
All I am going to say is that I went to this class because I know next to nothing about shotguns. Rob Haught knows *lots* about shotguns and he said the birdshot thing was viable. Ken Hackathorn also said it was viable. When much sought-after SMEs say a specific thing that contradicts the "conventional wisdom"... I would be a fool not to carefully consider it.
All I'm gonna say about it.
When much sought-after SMEs say a specific thing that contradicts the "conventional wisdom"... I would be a fool not to carefully consider it.
The converse is also true. It would be foolish to not consider the many other SME's, including the resident terminal ballistics SME's, who advocate not using birdshot.
Back on track, I appreciate the AAR and feedback. I've been interested in attending one of Rob Haught's shotgun courses. My previous shotgun education comes from Cooper, Awerbuck and Shaw.
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