Frangible Ammunition

[JaxCatm]

Has anyone experienced problems with frangible ammunition in their M4? We are running frangible ammo from Federal. I have seen the civillian version of this ammo and the boxes are labeled with R2L2. We have experienced excessive barrel wear and a much higher operating temp causing cook offs after around 120-140 rds at a rapid rate of fire.

[Dano5326]

Frange, depending on construct, will greatly enhance wear of the barrel. The Navy had a huge problem with it essentially enlarging the bore dia for about 4" in front of the chamber. When regular ammo went through, later, it would swell with the increased dia, but not be able to shrink back to the reg dia.. catostrophic failures. This older type frange also ate the hell out of the gas ports.

Essentially, particulate matter was breaking off the projectile and sandblasting the hell out of the barrel & port. The newer RRLP "white tip" supposedly doesn't have the same problems.

I wouldn't even have posted this except for concern about LE folks safety. Consult the manufacturer, weapons manufacturer, FBI test center, and others for specific info or recommendations.

[Glockster35]

***Below information could be purely rumor***

I do not know first hand information on this, as it seems no one really wants to discuss it.

I have heard rumors of several Air Force firearms instructors, who used frangible ammunition (unknown maker) for extended periods, and now some have been diagnosed with neurological problems. Somehow it has been speculated the frangible ammo is the cause.

This bothers me, because for 3 years, I ran a range in California and we were not allowed to fire any lead based rounds...only frangible bullets.

Again, not trying to point fingers, but if anyone else has information that could be useful, I would surely appreciate it!

[Dano5326]

Some "green" ammunition certainly isn't. Esp compressed tungsten rds... tungsten isn't on the EPA hitlist but will poison people & groundwater supplies.

Also what do the plastic coatings/compressed particles do when shot out at 3000fps..? probably not so good for the lungs either. O yes.. again plastic not on the EPA hitlist ........ so no data points for damage to you & me

Find a good doc, maybe endocrinologist, and ask about the little or never thought about effects of the above

[DocGKR]

Try the BH 62 gr R2LP loading...

[LukeMacGillie]

Has anyone experienced problems with frangible ammunition in their M4? We are running frangible ammo from Federal. I have seen the civillian version of this ammo and the boxes are labeled with R2L2. We have experienced excessive barrel wear and a much higher operating temp causing cook offs after around 120-140 rds at a rapid rate of fire.

Yes, same problems as you noted.

I dont have hard statistics to help you on this, but if you can sell your CoC on training uppers and operational uppers it would be a good thing.

Otherwise you need to have you weapons looked at with a fine tooth comb after using Frangible.

The effects of using this ammo, and the cost of increased wear and tear on the weapons needs to be programmed into the training plan.

Some of the folks I support can burn thru an upper a month when in their training cycle firing large ammounts of ball and frangible. We finally have dedicated UTM guns so as to not add those particular problems into the mix.

[JaxCatm]

Yeah sounds like everyone is having the same fun dealing with the issue "non-toxic" frangible ammo. I have also heard of other CATM instructors coming down with strange symptoms after exposure to it. We have had headaches, nose bleeds, vomitting and a decrease in our sense of smell. But according to Bio this stuff is safe. And we do have a dedicated supply of weapons that are for training only but to be honest with everyone I'm getting tired of replacing barrels every 2 months. If anyone can get a MSDS on the ammo I would be very thankful.

[Glockster35]

I had the MSDS when I was stationed at Travis AFB, about 5 years ago. You might want to try calling or e-mailing the maker of your particular ammo.

When I did, they sent it straight out, and also included a CD-Rom about their ammunition.

[JaxCatm]

Glockster
For some reason no one wants to talk about this ammunition. Bio has the MSDS but it never seems to make its way into our hands. I've got them coming out next week to take samples. I think it is just the right thing to do since all the CATM instructors in my shop are having weird problems. Funny we can't have spray paint at my range because it is a HAZMAT issue, but we can shoot ammo that may cause long term health problems.

[Glockster35]

IM sent!

[ST911]

The BH frangible is excellent.

I've seen a lot of the suspect frangible go downrange, and some of the accelerated wear noted. I haven't seen any cook-offs that wouldn't have occurred with regular mil ammo.

Jax, I sent you a PM.