View Full Version : 3inch 1911? Go or no go
Are any of the 3inch 1911 pistols made well and reliable. When I read about them, they seem to have reliablity issues. I would like a light weight 3 inch but have my doubts. Give me your thoughts ?
I would say "no go." Yes, such tiny 1911's CAN be made reliable, but the odds of having issues with them are much greater.
I always go back to this insightful comment from Hilton Yam on his 10-8 site:
http://10-8performance.com/id8.html
"First off, if you are truly serious about running a 1911, it needs to be a full sized 5" gun in .45 ACP. There certainly are any number of examples of Commander and other compact 1911s that work or can be made to work just fine, and for CCW use they can be a viable option for some users. However, take a look at the history of unit issue service 1911s - LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEUSOC, FBI HRT, FBI SWAT, and let's not forget over 95 years with all the branches of the U.S. military - and you won't find ANY major units that use anything other than the original full sized gun. Why? After you field 50 or 350 guns at once and run thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds through them during training cycles, you'll figure it out. By virtue of their design, the shorter format 1911s reduce the window of functional opportunity for the magazine and slide to work together to feed, chamber, extract, and eject. This is an incontrovertible fact of life. "
I had a Para Warthog shortly after they came out. Put about ~2,000 rounds thru it and didn't have a hiccup. I sold it cuz I needed the money worse, and I already have a .45 that's proven reliable (P220)
Again MINE was reliable but it's a crap shoot. Some run, some don't. Change springs often and hopefully you'll stop a problem before it happens...but they're finicky lil SOBs if you really read up on them.
With what's out there, I probably wouldn't pick one up again for a carry gun. But for something a little different and a range toy - maybe...
i had a para ordnance p12 with a 3.5" barrel.. double-stack compact 1911 with 12 rounds of .45 in the magazine. i got the " limited match" model, with some upgrades.. i dont even remember what. ambi safety was one, adjustable trigger and high-speed hammer were a couple others.. "match" barrel.. etc. the ambi-safety was the bane of my existence with that gun- it was CONSTANTLY hot in my holster. i will never get ambi anything on a handgun ever again.
i took it to a local 1911 smith before i fired a single round and got a basic reliability package.. i also dont remember what that entailed, i was a pretty ignorant 1911 owner. it ran reliably for something like 6,000-8,000 rounds (didnt keep round counts back then), then i started to get some fail to feeds in the form of rounds getting stuck on the ramp and missed rounds.. in hindesight, these are magazine issues. but my 1911 smith told me it was time for an overhaul (and it probably was, even though my malfs were most definately mag induced) and it was gonna cost like $500 for everything he wanted to do, so i bought a USP 45 on sale for $630 instead. i kept the p12 for a while, rarely shooting it, then finally sold it to a local pistol trainer for $500 about two years ago. i paid $700 for it in 99 or 00, so it held some value.
para doesn't make the p12 anymore, and they certainly dont make it in the "limited" model.. furthermore, a pistol manufacturer can improve or go to shit in a decade- so i can't say if paras are any good these days. they're still kickin, and even have some LEA contracts with their LDA pistols.
i wouldn't buy another- not in 45, at least.. rapid fire was like bronc buckin', with that tiny little barrel. sure was nice to have 13 rounds of .45 in a compact, accurate, 1911 though.. if i still had it today, i'd go ahead and put some money into it.
Army Chief
09-14-09, 23:52
I like the Defender concept, but it really is a toss-up whether or not you can get one to run (and stay running) well enough to stake your life on it. Whatever problems you may have heard people report with their Government Models, you can pretty much add to them by a factor of 2x for every inch you take off of the barrel.
The only 3" 1911 I would really trust completely is the Wilson Combat Sentinel; even then, this model has only recently been added this back to the lineup, because they aren't terribly cost-effective to build. Now, if a custom/semi-custom shop feels that it takes an inordinate amount of time to get one of these pistols to run correctly, you can imagine the potential problems associated with a standard production-grade variant. For my purposes, the Stealth offered a better compromise.
I wouldn't wave-off entirely, but I would choose very, very carefully.
AC
JiMfraRED1911
09-15-09, 00:05
Are any of the 3inch 1911 pistols made well and reliable. When I read about them, they seem to have reliablity issues. I would like a light weight 3 inch but have my doubts. Give me your thoughts ?
No go. Save yourself the headaches.
ChicagoTex
09-15-09, 02:03
Let me start off by saying that I disagree that Commander-length 1911s (4.25") are inherently less reliable, I've encountered many a production Commander-length that was as reliable as just about anything else I've shot (and I've shot a LOT of different brands/models).
With that said, 3.0-3.5"ers are a whole different story. I've only shot one of these in my life, an early Kimber CDP that ran fine for the one magazine I cared to run through it. I have large hands so I have an especially hard time hanging onto them, and their small size and lightweight aluminum frames are really no fun to shoot for me. I have a couple friends who carry these shorty 1911s, one has a Colt, one has an older pre-crap Kimber, both of them tell me they found reliability once they found the right carry ammo type to run in their gun (don't remember what exact loads they use now, sorry). I know that these smaller 1911s tend to actually work best with lighter bullets (i.e. 200gr or 180gr), I suppose because the recoil spring can only compensate so much for the lack of slide mass.
As other posters have said, it's a little bit of a crap shoot. You might wind up with a fundamentally unreliable one you can do nothing with no matter how hard you try. Even if you find a good one, it may be a time-consuming and expensive quest to find the right ammo for it (or you may get lucky on the first try). Even then, you may have trouble with practice ammo (though obviously this is less crucial).
My concealed carry experience has taught me that slide length doesn't matter all that much (within reason), but every 1/8 of an inch of grip length can be crucial. Because of this, I think if I was trying to hunt down the ultimate concealed carry 1911, I'd go with a commander-length slide and barrel on an officer's frame.
Best of luck, caveat emptor, and let us know what you end up deciding/doing.
Robb Jensen
09-15-09, 06:45
John Browning designed the 1911 to be a 5" gun. Cutting almost 1/2 of the length off the slide and barrel is the good recipe for a paperweight. It was designed to be a 5" gun which is my two 1911s .45s and my 2011 .40 are 5" guns.
I would recommend nothing less than 4" or 4-1/4". 3" is just tempting fate.
Business_Casual
09-15-09, 07:43
Dude, you buy a lot of guns.
As GotM4 noted, don't buy a 3" pistol in the 1911 pattern.
M_P
I've had a couple of short barrel 1911's over the years. You can get them to work but it's not worth the time, effort, money or frustration.
Stick with the Commander or Government size.
JiMfraRED1911
09-15-09, 09:50
Let me start off by saying that I disagree that Commander-length 1911s (4.25") are inherently less reliable, I've encountered many a production Commander-length that was as reliable as just about anything else I've shot (and I've shot a LOT of different brands/models).
Did you even bother to read the second post?
It is the rule that they don’t work not that they do for what it is worth.
SUPERIOR FIREARMS LLC.
5510 Fern Valley RD. STE 102
Louisville KY. 40228
502-365-2244
MarshallDodge
09-15-09, 10:30
4.25" would be the smallest I would go with. Better accuracy, reliability, and recoil is a lot more manageable.
If you want a little gun, get something in 9mm that has been designed with a short barrel.
John_Wayne777
09-15-09, 12:20
Are any of the 3inch 1911 pistols made well and reliable. When I read about them, they seem to have reliablity issues. I would like a light weight 3 inch but have my doubts. Give me your thoughts ?
The feeding cycle on a 1911 is a delicate process.
On a 5" gun built correctly you have a decent margin of error. Your mag springs can be a little weak and the gun will still run. The recoil spring can be a little out of spec and it will still run. The extractor can be improperly tensioned and it will still run. Etc.
When you chop the barrel in half the margin for error drops considerably. This means that every process in the manufacturing and assembly of the weapon becomes that much more critical. If you do get one that runs out of the box (which is hardly a guarantee) then every maintenance item becomes that much more critical.
If someone doesn't build it just right it won't run....if it does run and you don't maintain it just right, it will stop running.
The advice of people who have forgotten more about the 1911 than most of us will ever know is to buy a 5" traditionally barreled gun in .45 ACP if you want a 1911. If you want a smaller gun, look at something besides a 1911.
I will go halfway against the grain here. I carried a S/A ultra compact as backup to my TRP. 4000+ rounds thru it with no problems. That being said, I agree with GotM4. The platform was designed around a 5" barrel. Going less than late you can encounter issues. I dont know if I got extremly lucky or what with mine but there it is. FWIW.
No go. I had a Kimber Ultra CDP. Nice gun but it was not what I really wanted after I bought it. The kick was manageable but a little more than what I wanted. I wouldn't go any smaller than a Commander size.
Dan
I wouldn't recommend a 3" version of a 1911. Besides the reliability issues, the reason people like a 1911 is the .45 ACP and what it does coming out of a 5" barrel. Going to a 4.25" barrel in the Commander, the difference isn't huge. However, when you cut the barrel down by almost half its original length of 5" to 3", you are reducing the bullet's velocity significantly and it's no longer the typical .45 ACP round people have in mind.
No offense to those who love their micro 1911 pistols, but to me, firing a .45 ACP through a 3" barrel micro 1911 basically means you might as well go to a different caliber and different pistol design altogether.
ChicagoTex
09-15-09, 14:57
Did you even bother to read the second post?
I did. I read all posts before replying. What of it? Aren't I allowed to disagree because my experience has shown that 4"ers are fine?
Business_Casual
09-15-09, 15:12
I think the point is that your individual experience is of little or no use in this context. Serena Williams can win the US Open Ladies division, but that personal experience is of little use to me.
Personal experience, from say a 1911 Pistolsmith of International reputation (Hilton Yam) is of use. Since his is of use, perhaps that is the one to which one should pay attention.
M_P
ChicagoTex
09-15-09, 15:28
I think the point is that your individual experience is of little or no use in this context. Serena Williams can win the US Open Ladies division, but that personal experience is of little use to me.
Personal experience, from say a 1911 Pistolsmith of International reputation (Hilton Yam) is of use. Since his is of use, perhaps that is the one to which one should pay attention.
M_P
Hey, everything you hear/read on the internet is worth what you pay for it. It's the reader's responsibility to filter the information as they see fit.
Mr. Yam's entitled to his opinion as much as I am entitled to mine - you may feel that his is more worth listening to, and that's perfectly fine, but it still doesn't automatically invalidate my opinion.
In the days of ancient Greece, forums were places where any citizen could debate any topic with another citizen with equal regard (not equal weight, but regard). It was the theory that disagreement and debate, centered around issues, points, theories, and experiences, rather than ad hominem attacks fueled enlightenment.
That is the spirit in which I approach forums, and I will not automatically disregard my own opinions and experiences just because a semi-famous pistolsmith (whom I, by the way, have never heard of before) has an opinion contrary to mine. I am not saying he's wrong, I am not questioning his honesty and I am not criticizing his work, I am simply saying that his fame alone isn't enough to dissuade me from my opinion or speaking my opinion.
If you choose to disregard my opinion in the shadow of his - good for you, it doesn't bother me in the least - but I feel it's unfair to insinuate I don't have a right to have or express one (note this comment is not directed specifically to you).
I wouldn't it on my own volition, but if I had to or was required to, I would do it only with readily available support of a reputable pistolsmith.
I own pre-current Kimber Compact - 4 inch slide with Officer's frame - and this is as small as I would go. My experience is 99.8% reliability over 5000 rounds with gun set up by an expert, with meticulous attention to recoil spring life and avoidance of +P ammo.
Given a choice, I would look for different format and caliber in sub-compact pistols.
QuietShootr
09-15-09, 18:02
IMO - Generally a 3" 1911 is a bad idea.
That said, I have a 3" Kimber Ultra Carry with a lightweight frame that shoots so well I'd be forever branded a liar if I posted the groups, and after replacing the slide stop to cure the premature lockback, it's been 100% reliable for the following 4000 rounds. I change all the springs every 1000, knowing that if I don't I'm headed for trouble.
I wouldn't advise anyone buy one, but I went into mine knowing it was likely to give me trouble and I was prepared to work with it to get it un****ed. The thing is a dream to carry and surprisingly pleasant to shoot...I just keep my eye on it.
I carry 185gr Silvertips in it (I know, I know. They're very accurate in this gun, though, and my splits are better than with 230gr loads).
Dude, you buy a lot of guns.
As GotM4 noted, don't buy a 3" pistol in the 1911 pattern.
M_P
I'm stopping buying, went on a short term binge. I'm looking forward to it cooling down in the desert so I can tolerate the heat enough to shoot more the 150 or so rounds in the heat. I get bored shooting inside ranges, even if they are really nice ones.
I am not buying a 3 inch 1911.
I'm not a world renowned 1911 guy so I know my opinion or experience isn't worth it's weight in dried shit but I'll give it anyway.
I have a Colt Officer's model I bought from a friend. It has been dead reliable and very accurate and the only reason I stopped carrying it was because of a policy change on what I could carry. In fairness though my friend had quite a bit of work done on the gun by one of those guys that does know his shit so that probably makes my sample of one even less relevant than an out of the box example. I like it and wouldn't have a problem carrying it but I have no experience with a stock one so I don't know what the comparison is. This gun is very nice to shoot.
diving dave
09-17-09, 10:15
Just to dogpile on everyone else's comments..I had a Kimber ultra rapter 2 I bought for an off duty pistol. Easy to conceal and looked dam sexy, but it was the biggest piece of shit of a handgun I've owned. Nothing but problems. Full size 1911 is the way to go.
parishioner
09-17-09, 13:18
Larry Vickers in the flesh on the 1911: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid27188663001?bclid=27610463001&bctid=33510888001
tr1kstanc3
09-19-09, 21:43
Larry Vickers in the flesh on the 1911: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid27188663001?bclid=27610463001&bctid=33510888001
nice video find!
I agree that you have to take extra care with the smaller 1911's but if you take care of them they should take care of you as well. First off, buy quality don't buy middle of the road. Then do as I do. With my Kimber Ultra CDP II, I replace my mag springs and recoil spring every year along with a complete inspection.
Some of us skinny guys can't conceal a full size 1911 like others can and we don't want to be stuck with a 380 or 9mm either.
I don't see what's wrong with 3" 1911.
I used to carry one as my secondary along with a 4".For a short distance with point-N-shoot, it will be hell to what ever your target is
QuietShootr
09-21-09, 16:11
I don't see what's wrong with 3" 1911.
I used to carry one as my secondary along with a 4".For a short distance with point-N-shoot, it will be hell to what ever your target is
It isn't accuracy. I can hit a 4" steel target at 50 yards more often than not with mine. It's that a 1911 is a delicately balanced system, and cutting it to 3" is screwing with every bit of timing in the gun - unlocking, cycling, magazine feeding, everything. It's easy for something to go out of whack on a 3" gun, and when it does the gun will quit running.
As I said, I love mine, but I KNOW I have to pay close attention to it to get the kind of performance out of it I demand.
OK guys,
I'm probably going to kick up a hornets nest here. I know that I don't have many posts on this forum, I do more lurking here soaking up tactical info and what not. Most of my time is spent over on a forum called Specialty Pistols.
After reading thru this thread 3 or 4 times something doesn't hold water with what is being said here.
I see people posting that the origional 1911 wasn't designed to be a 3 inch gun (I agree) and we are asking for trouble if we shorten it up. If we take an early model 1911 and put it next to a Kimber Ultra CDP II I think that you will find that they are almost completely different guns with only a couple interchangeable parts. The basic design is the same but they have become very different weapons.
Also if this idea was to continue to other guns then we should also look at the Glock family and shun the babies there or even the family of M-16's M4's and the even shorter variants. Shorter guns can be picky but I think that if you buy quality AND take care of it AND use it for it's intended purpose they can be fine weapons.
Am I way out of line here?
That said, During my time in the Army as an Investigator for the MP Corps we were in transition to the new 9mm side arms. I was lucky and had the choice of carrying 3 different pistols while on duty. The 1911 a 38 smith snubbie and the M9. I was able to carry the 1911 concealled in the fall, winter and spring but had to use the 38 for summer use. The M9 hardly ever saw the light of day. If I could have had a Kimber Ultra CDP II then I would have been in hog heaven!!
Business_Casual
09-22-09, 08:11
OK guys,
I'm probably going to kick up a hornets nest here. I know that I don't have many posts on this forum, I do more lurking here soaking up tactical info and what not. Most of my time is spent over on a forum called Specialty Pistols.
After reading thru this thread 3 or 4 times something doesn't hold water with what is being said here.
I see people posting that the origional 1911 wasn't designed to be a 3 inch gun (I agree) and we are asking for trouble if we shorten it up. If we take an early model 1911 and put it next to a Kimber Ultra CDP II I think that you will find that they are almost completely different guns with only a couple interchangeable parts. The basic design is the same but they have become very different weapons.
Also if this idea was to continue to other guns then we should also look at the Glock family and shun the babies there or even the family of M-16's M4's and the even shorter variants. Shorter guns can be picky but I think that if you buy quality AND take care of it AND use it for it's intended purpose they can be fine weapons.
Am I way out of line here?
That said, During my time in the Army as an Investigator for the MP Corps we were in transition to the new 9mm side arms. I was lucky and had the choice of carrying 3 different pistols while on duty. The 1911 a 38 smith snubbie and the M9. I was able to carry the 1911 concealled in the fall, winter and spring but had to use the 38 for summer use. The M9 hardly ever saw the light of day. If I could have had a Kimber Ultra CDP II then I would have been in hog heaven!!
1) Kimber
2) CDP II
3) Ancedotal
The trifecta of bad pistol advice.
M_P
No go. Stay with 5" all Steel Gov't style.
I will try to tell the info on the 3 inch 1911 without bias. The gun does not have the same slide travel to do the work of a 5 inch gun. The reason you see bull barrels and things on 3 inch 1911 is to try to fix the fact that the slide just does not move far enough to run well.
SUPERIOR FIREARMS LLC.
5510 Fern Valley RD. STE 102
Louisville KY. 40228
502-365-2244
1) Kimber
2) CDP II
3) Ancedotal
The trifecta of bad pistol advice.
M_P
I would find it interesting if you could expand your comments rather than just typing what you did. I am always interested in expanding my "limited knowledge" when it comes to firearms.
JiMfraRED1911
09-22-09, 09:17
http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=78399&an=0&page=4#78399
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=76086&an=0&page=5#76086
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=57681&an=0&page=5#57681
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=56857&an=0&page=6#56857
Business_Casual
09-22-09, 09:19
I would find it interesting if you could expand your comments rather than just typing what you did. I am always interested in expanding my "limited knowledge" when it comes to firearms.
I don't actually think you would find it interesting. We'll just have to agree to disagree, friend.
M_P
John_Wayne777
09-22-09, 10:49
I see people posting that the origional 1911 wasn't designed to be a 3 inch gun (I agree) and we are asking for trouble if we shorten it up. If we take an early model 1911 and put it next to a Kimber Ultra CDP II I think that you will find that they are almost completely different guns with only a couple interchangeable parts. The basic design is the same but they have become very different weapons.
The 1911 has a more complicated feed path than other handguns currently on the market. If you ever insert a magazine loaded with a dummy round into a stripped 1911 and take a look at where the bullet sits in relation to the barrel and compare that to how it looks in say a Glock or a S&W M&P, you'll notice that the 1911 seats the next round lower than more modern designs.
This creates an almost Z shaped feed path for the next round as opposed to a more gently sloping path for more modern designs. This results in a much more delicate feed cycle that becomes exponentially more delicate as you start screwing with the original design. The more you deviate from the weapon as originally designed, the more crucial things like magazine spring tension, extractor tension, recoil spring tension, bullet shape, etc. become. With a 5" traditionally barreled gun there is a lot more room for any one of those factors to be a bit out of spec and still have a functional weapon than on a 3" gun. On a 3" gun if your mag feeds a bit slow because of a worn out mag spring, it won't keep up with the slide and you'll get a malfunction. If the extractor is a bit out of spec, odds are you'll get a malfunction. If the recoil spring is out of spec it will let the slide move too fast and you'll get a malfunction.
Also if this idea was to continue to other guns then we should also look at the Glock family and shun the babies there or even the family of M-16's M4's and the even shorter variants.
You're making a very crucial mistake here: AR's and Glocks are not 1911's. The fact that a G26 works pretty good has absolutely no bearing on whether or not a 3" 1911 will function reliably.
In general when you take a design and try to shrink it you introduce complications that must be worked out. When you start the process with a 100 year old platform with a complicated feed cycle that requires expert production and a good deal of armorer level support to keep running over the long haul you don't have as much wiggle room in the reliability department as you would if you started with something like a G17.
Shorter guns can be picky but I think that if you buy quality AND take care of it AND use it for it's intended purpose they can be fine weapons.
There are a few problems with your theory:
1. Buy quality -- Who makes "quality" 1911's? I ask because I have seen 1911's from just about every maker puke at some point or another. A good example would be the Vickers 1911 operator course held in June of this year. There were probably 50 grand worth of 1911's at that class from a bunch of different makers, and ALL of them had problems that had to be corrected. So how does the average buyer judge "quality" in a 1911? Further, what signs of "quality" seen on the gunstore shelf indicate to you that it will function reliably? What specifications make for a reliable 1911?
2. Take care of it -- how many 1911 owners really understand the platform? How many of them understand how delicate the feed cycle is? How many of them understand how crucial things like magazine springs and recoil springs are to making the weapon function reliably? Again, at the Vickers course there were a bunch of guys who were, by most standards, pretty knowledgeable about the 1911...and everybody's gun had problems. I always thought of myself as a pretty 1911 savvy guy, and my gun had problems with the extractor and ejector that would have eventually led to serious feed issues had they not been corrected. Given that even enthusiasts of the platform grossly misunderstand the platform and how to keep it running, how realistic is it to say "take care of it"?
3. Intended purpose -- What are you referring to with this? My intended purpose for a carry gun would be to launch a bullet into the vital bits of an aggressor's anatomy when called upon to do so. The weapon itself must be reliable enough to do that...and it must be reliable and durable enough to allow me to put xxxx training rounds through it both to check the function and reliability of the weapon and to prepare to use it in those dire circumstances if forced to. If xxxx rounds is "too much" for the gun, then I sure as heck don't want it as my primary weapon should I find myself in need of one.
John Wayne777,
Thanks for your reply. I understand what you said and I think I learned something today. That's why I like this forum so much. Keep up the good work.
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