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rob_s
09-15-09, 09:43
So there was a post elsewhere on M4C recently regarding physical fitness and hand-to-hand skills. While the post was rude and off topic, I wanted to see if we could re-kindle this discussion.

I maintain, and have always maintained, that maintaining a healthy lifestyle to include eating healthy/properly and getting at least some amount of physical exercise is more important, to a huge degree, than any fighting skills. I consider it to be a Hierarchy of Survivalism (tm). Much like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs) where base physiological needs (air, food, water, sleep, etc.) must be met before the higher needs of safety, belonging, esteem, and self-actualization can be addressed, the factors or threats that are most likely to end one's life should be addressed before those that are less likely.

The Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (http://www.cdc.gov/) has a very interesting page on the Leading Causes of Death in Males, United States, 2004 (http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/index.htm).

The basic, generic, average information is as follows, in order (the number is the percentage of deaths attributed to that cause):
All Males, All Ages
1) Heart disease 27.2
2) Cancer 24.3
3) Unintentional injuries 6.1
4) Stroke 5.0
5) Chronic lower respiratory diseases 5.0
6) Diabetes 3.0
7) Influenza and pneumonia 2.3
8) Suicide 2.2
9) Kidney disease 1.7
10) Alzheimer's disease 1.6

Note that there is no mention of violent encounter. The CDC terms deaths caused by others as "Homicide" so it's very easy to track. Note that Homicide is not even in the top 10.

As one scrolls down the page you will see a further breakdown by race/ethnicity. But what is really interesting is if you click on the .pdf links they give you a breakdown by race and age so that one can see where you fall much more narrowly. This tells a much better tale, and there are many interesting conclusions we can come to based on this information.

These statistics are only one part of the equation however. Hopefully it goes without saying that one should eat well and get some exercise, and reduce the excess weight they carry around. This isn't just about long-term health but short-term enjoyment of life, but physical fitness is also related to one's ability to fight off infection, disease, and violent encounter as well as to recover from same. Other than arguments about a bullet having a hard time getting to the vitals of a larger man, I think that it goes without saying that there are benefits to leading a healthy lifestyle.

I'm curious in hearing others take on all of this. Are you into fitness and health as well as shooting and fighting? Do you ignore fitness and health but still focus on fighting? Do you think that they are entirely unrelated? and why do you have the opinions that you do? Are you "pro health" simply because you're naturally thin and in truth get no more exercise or eat any better than the 300lb guy? Do you ignore the health aspect simply because you lack self-control and the momentary happiness you get from a twinkie is more important than your long-term survival? And regardless of which camp you are in, how do you reconcile your actions with your beliefs/opinions?

Spiffums
09-15-09, 14:06
I remember reading where race played some part in the results. Black Males suffer from higher percentages of heart disease and so forth.

I think as a nation we have moved away from manual labor to "mental labor". We are less active and stress plays more into why we get sick. If you are using your body to make a living and not sitting behind a computer you have a better active lifestyle than someone who sits in a cubby hole for 8 to 12 hours a day.

Bill Bryant
09-15-09, 14:26
Thanks for posting this.

I'm no warrior, probably will never need to be one. I'm just an outdoorsman, hunter, hiker, and camper who recently started building his first AR.

But I have to say that I've never seen anything quite as silly as the photos of obese students in tactical training classes--all kinds of battle gear and weaponry draped over tubs of lard.

I would think that the first tactical advantage would be to be fit and not fat.

(FWIW I have to watch my weight constantly and believe that self-discipline in one area carries over to other areas and can be strengthened by exercising the will--forget the pills and fad diets; just eat less as a way of life and enjoy the results!)

Romeo Foxtrot
09-15-09, 15:26
But I have to say that I've never seen anything quite as silly as the photos of obese students in tactical training classes--all kinds of battle gear and weaponry draped over tubs of lard.

I would think that the first tactical advantage would be to be fit and not fat.

I agree. The irony in these photos is amazing. Here these people are, training for what one day may be a life and death scenario; but their so fat and out of shape that they couldn't do a dash to the 100yd line with out suffering a massive heart attack. They're training to save their lives should they ever need to use a gun, yet they're far more likely to die an early death from being obese. And thats just the beginning. The above type of people are armchair warriors living out a dream getting to play dress up and play with their high dollar rifles doing drills.

Truth of the matter is, if the S ever HTF, these people, despite all their super tactical training from high dollar instructors; would be sitting ducks because they wouldn't be able to make it from their gun safe to the stop sign at the front of their driveway with out running out of breath, much less with 40lbs of shit on them.


If in a gun fight, I'd much rather be able to run a 200yd dash in 30sec with 40lbs of gear on me than have all sorts of cool guy tactical training. both would be even better....

sadmin
09-15-09, 15:40
Im the same as the poster above. Im into being in the outdoors, many facets of it. Being fit or healthy is part of my lifestyle, shooting is my hobby. Im sure my POV would vary if I was mil, leo or shot as a trade. I can only assume that if I was, they would be amplified; as it would be a factor in the equation of my situational survival.

I am pro-health partly because I have been in sports since I was young. I suppose it just seems natural to want to exercise 5 times a week as i did in school. I ran cross country and swam. I run daily since I adhere to stamina over brute strength. I do watch what I eat, but that didnt start until I turned about 27. I wouldnt say it was because of weight gain; but because I believe that these days I intake far too many hormones, preservatives, and artificial garbage that is slowly trying to pull me under. I always tell my wife when we have our first child, we are going to eat all organic and a menu similar to that of the 1950's. I guess im lucky that I have a salty tooth rather than a sweet one, so im not into deserts. Not to digress on my diet.
Yes, they are directly related, and if you dont exercise but go shoot every weekend and throw knives at your fence thinking your gtg; well brother, if "the most annoying acronym" ever comes to materialize, I will give my regards to your family.

Bill Bryant
09-15-09, 15:48
the most annoying acronym ever I'm totally with you on this one.

Al U. 5811
09-16-09, 07:03
My take would that if you are going to be serious, or at least taken serious, about your desire to hone your "battle skills" you should address all facets, armed and unarmed. This applies equally to professionals as well as the private Citizen. A personal fitness program along with some type of unarmed combat training really should not be as complex as most people try to make them out to be. Adding this to the firearms training that you do now, or at least should be doing, can only enhance that skill set that you are trying to master. Rather than trying to overcomplicate a basic fitness and self defense training regimen, concentrate on the basics and get good at that. Any martial arts, personal trainer, or firearms trainer will echo that same concept. You need to identify your needs then find a way to work it in with your work, home, and personal/play time. The bottom line is that if you keep it simple and fun it should stay as something you look forward to doing, even get excited for. A training partner (or partners) of the same skill level help also.

WillBrink
09-16-09, 08:57
I start the seminars do i for LEO by pointing out that you wear a vest to prevent getting shot and go to the range (hopefully...) to shoot, but cardio vascular disease is what's likely to get you, so....This may not be a tacti-cool topic, but statistically speaking, Atherosclerosis is what kills most LEOs. It's the number one killer in the US, and LEOs suffer higher rates then the general public*, so staying in shape is essential to both short term and long term survival.

I'm always amazed at how out of shape the shooters are at the range, IDPA matches, courses I take, etc. It never fails to amaze me.

Obviously, the connection to overall fitness (e.g., GPP), not related to MA skills, shooting skills, etc is directly related to your ability to perform under stress and survive. As you go up the food chain in tactical/combat shooters, you will also note they tend to be in top condition. There are no fat slow guys at LA PD SWAT, or DevGru, or FBI HRT, etc. and there's a reason for that...

* = In studies looking at higher rates of CVD in the LEO population, even when they adjust for the "usual suspects" which is smoking, lack of exercise, and diet, they still suffer higher rates. They attribute that to the stress.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 10:56
Fitness is a risk factor that can be controlled, but it's not the only one. If the most annoying acronym does occur, people are going to start dropping weight in a hurry, but a lot of "fat bodies" are still going to survive the pocaclypse. You don't need to be in SeAL/HRT conditioning to survive. You mostly need to be smart. I'm definitely overweight, but have low blood pressure and low cholesterol. Not everyone is going to be, nor needs to be, a SWAT guy.

Go out and exercise regularly in a moderate way, eat healthy foods that you enjoy. You'll do much more good then trying to get all butch and try a diet and exercise program that you're not going to be able to maintain. While I don't see a lot of fat guys in SWAT type outfits, I do see fat guys who used to be. That level of fitness is not sustainable for them, let alone most people here.

Tactical/Survival fitness is all well and good, but no guarantee that you won't die of CVD...or of a hole in your head. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

Something else to consider is that increasingly it's becoming clear that true fitness comes from living an active lifestyle, meaning you are physically active during your daily routine. "Working out" might actually be counter-productive for most people. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1914857,00.html

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:10
Fitness is a risk factor that can be controlled, but it's not the only one. If the most annoying acronym does occur, people are going to start dropping weight in a hurry, but a lot of "fat bodies" are still going to survive the pocaclypse.

Tactical/Survival fitness is all well and good, but no guarantee that you won't die of CVD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Fixx

I find this logic fatally flawed.

Obviously the person with the healthiest lifestyle can drop dead of a heart attack right in the middle of running. But it doesn't mean that being in shape is bad, and it's a truly ironic stance for anyone to take who is preparing for something (violent attack) that in and of itself is so unlikely to happen as to be statistically insignificant. In 2005 just under 17k people died of Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter out of a total population of just under 300M (source (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html)). Of that 17k, approximately 8k were black (source (http://theblackpoliticalreview.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/african-americans-are-50-of-all-murder-victims/)).

Not to mention the fact that a heightened sense of awareness, modification of basic behaviors, and limitations on traveling to dangerous areas or locations are FAR bigger determining factors as to whether or not you are likely to be murdered or otherwise assaulted than any "running and gunning" skills learned at the latest training class.

If we're going to take the fatalistic "even skinny healthy guys die of hear attacks so I'm just going to be big and fat" approach, then certainly "preparing" for a death that is even less likely is silly at best.

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:16
That level of fitness is not sustainable for them, let alone most people here.


Maybe not, depending on what level you're referring to, but I'm of the belief that it takes a lot more effort to be obese than it does to be thin. Forget activity levels for a minute and look strictly at excess body weight. To walk around at 300 lbs you have to WORK to maintain that level of fat. Your body does not just naturally balloon up. To build a house you need bricks and to build fat you need food.

If you go from an active lifestyle to a sedentary one, you have to adjust your intake. If you get older and your body metabolism slows down, you need to reduce your intake. Getting, and maintaining, even 50 lbs over where you should be takes a huge amount of effort. It's mental laziness, not physical, since that person chooses not to think about what they are eating, but it is way more work than taking in the right amount (and the right kind) of food to maintain a healthy weight.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 11:17
But it doesn't mean that being in shape is bad

Didn't say it was. Give another read.

The point was that what you have between your ears is going to be a larger factor in survival than whether you have a gut.

It's always a little amusing that skinny guys think it's about being "lazy". I know a lot of "fat bodies" who work for hours trying to control their weight with counter-productive results. It's not about lazy, but like firearms, one size of exercise program does not work for all. Having a gut doesn't mean you're out of shape anymore than not having one means you in shape...it's simply a "risk factor".

People would do well to understand that "risk factor" doesn't mean something will happen. It only means that when taken over the sum total of a whole population, those with a gut have a higher risk of problems, not that a particular individual will.

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:29
The point was that what you have between your ears is going to be a larger factor in survival than whether you have a gut.
survival of what? Armageddon? A fist fight? A gun fight? A cheeseburger?


It's always a little amusing that skinny guys think it's about being "lazy". I know a lot of "fat bodies" who work for hours trying to control their weight with counter-productive results. It's not about lazy, but like firearms, one size of exercise program does not work for all. Having a gut doesn't mean you're out of shape anymore than not having one means you in shape...it's simply a "risk factor".
I see a "gut" as a mindset indicator. And a "gut" on someone that is spending thousands of dollars a year on guns, range time, ammo, barrels full of rice, training classes, etc. is an indicator of a pretty screwy mindset IMHO.

FWIW, it's also equally amusing when fat guys think that skinny guys are that way with zero effort. I have a fat friend who, every time we go to dinner with the group, delights in saying "hey you guys, look at what the skinny guy is eating". Hmm, maybe that should be a clue as you scarf down two appetizers, an entree with 2-3 sides, and a desert to my one breadless sandwich with a side of vegetables or rice. Or how about my breakfast of yogurt, a hard boiled egg, a granola bar, and a banana to yours of three pancakes two fried eggs four pieces of bacon...


People would do well to understand that "risk factor" doesn't mean something will happen.
No, it doesn't. But it is the height of silliness to ignore an extremely likely potential cause of death and instead prepare for one that is so unlikely as to be statistically insignificant.

It would be like driving to the gun range to go practice your self-defense skills while doing 95 on the interstate weaving in and out of traffic with no seatbelt on and your 8th beer in the last 2 hours wedged in your crotch.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 11:30
Maybe not, depending on what level you're referring to, but I'm of the belief that it takes a lot more effort to be obese than it does to be thin.

Spoken like a really skinny dude. :) I know you mean well, but I'm guessing it's not something you've ever had to worry about. Yes you may put in effort, but that effort yields results that not everyone gets. People have different metabolisms, that's not even controversial to state.

Willbrink said that one doesn't see fat guys in HRT type groups and while that's certainly true, we're not HRT types. That's why I referred to them. I

Obese is a specific criteria. Many people are overweight/out of shape without being obese. Even if you're obese, it doesn't mean you're going to die on fire either.

The variables are so many here that making simple, pat overreaching conclusions are somewhat simplistic.

Yes, eat less and move more, but it's unrealistic that we're all going to become welterweights.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 11:34
survival of what? Armageddon? A fist fight? A gun fight? A cheeseburger?

Yes.


I see a "gut" as a mindset indicator. And a "gut" on someone that is spending thousands of dollars a year on guns, range time, ammo, barrels full of rice, training classes, etc. is an indicator of a pretty screwy mindset IMHO.

So those people should stop training and get in shape before they are qualified to stand on the line with you?


FWIW, it's also equally amusing when fat guys think that skinny guys are that way with zero effort. I have a fat friend who, every time we go to dinner with the group, delights in saying "hey you guys, look at what the skinny guy is eating". Hmm, maybe that should be a clue as you scarf down two appetizers, an entree with 2-3 sides, and a desert to my one breadless sandwich with a side of vegetables or rice. Or how about my breakfast of yogurt, a hard boiled egg, a granola bar, and a banana to yours of three pancakes two fried eggs four pieces of bacon...

I also see skinny guys put away large pizzas with extra pepperoni, while I do everything I can to eat right, cook my own food. I don't eat junk or soda but no matter what I do, there is only so much weight I'm going to lose.


No, it doesn't. But it is the height of silliness to ignore an extremely likely potential cause of death and instead prepare for one that is so unlikely as to be statistically insignificant.

Who said anything about ignoring anything?


It would be like driving to the gun range to go practice your self-defense skills while doing 95 on the interstate weaving in and out of traffic with no seatbelt on and your 8th beer in the last 2 hours wedged in your crotch.

Uhm no. Sorry but to compare it to such recklessness is more than a bit silly.

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:34
it's unrealistic that we're all going to become welterweights.

I see very few even try.

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:36
Yes.



So those people should stop training and get in shape before they are qualified to stand on the line with you?



I also see skinny guys put away large pizzas with extra pepperoni, while I do everything I can to eat right, cook my own food. I don't eat junk or soda but no matter what I do, there is only so much weight I'm going to lose.



Who said anything about ignoring anything?



Uhm no. Sorry but to compare it to such recklessness is more than a bit silly.

So now this makes more sense. You're taking it personally because you yourself are overweight and have convinced yourself that there's nothing you can do about it. Gotcha.

rob_s
09-16-09, 11:41
Look, this has nothing to do with who's qualified to stand on a line with me, or train with me, or whatever. I don't frankly give a damn if fat bastard drops dead on the drive home from a coronary as long as he is physically able to keep up with the class and not slow things down or knows when things are beyond his limitations and takes himself off the line.

But...

Excuses and attempts at side-tracking the discussion aside, I'm still wondering why one would spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours preparing for something that is statistically unlikely to happen and ignore something that is statistically much more likely to kill them.

I have never, ever, spent any amount of time with a person that weighs 50lbs more than what they clearly should who also maintains anything close to a healthy diet and gets even so much as a shred of exercise. Maybe these people exist (they must because I meet them on the internet every time this discussion comes up, them and the ones with the "gland problems"), but I haven't seen them.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 11:45
withdrawn.

WillBrink
09-16-09, 16:33
Fitness is a risk factor that can be controlled, but it's not the only one. If the most annoying acronym does occur, people are going to start dropping weight in a hurry, but a lot of "fat bodies" are still going to survive the pocaclypse. You don't need to be in SeAL/HRT conditioning to survive. You mostly need to be smart. I'm definitely overweight, but have low blood pressure and low cholesterol. Not everyone is going to be, nor needs to be, a SWAT guy.

My point was only that conditioning plays an essential role in the ability of your top of the food chain combat shooters. It may simply be they can run away faster and farther, or drag a wounded person, carry loads, recoup faster from stress, etc., but higher up the food chain you go, the more emphasis on physical conditioning you will see, in addition to the other more obvious stuff. For the average person, physical performance can play a critical part of your survival in a confrontation, or other.


Go out and exercise regularly in a moderate way, eat healthy foods that you enjoy. You'll do much more good then trying to get all butch and try a diet and exercise program that you're not going to be able to maintain. While I don't see a lot of fat guys in SWAT type outfits, I do see fat guys who used to be. That level of fitness is not sustainable for them, let alone most people here.

Again, only using extreme examples, and I am not in top tier SWAT condition either at 44 I assure you! Age, physical restrictions, etc all have to be factored in. It's a matter of staying in the best condition you can under your own set of circumstances.


Tactical/Survival fitness is all well and good, but no guarantee that you won't die of CVD...

There are no guarantees in any of it, it's about reducing the risk factors as best you can. but control them (ergo, greatly reduce you risk of CVD) you can. Life is 100% fatal, 100% of the time, in 100% of the people, so we're all going that way, like or not. It's an issue of stacking the deck in your favor for both functional healthy longevity or being able to physically deal with what life throws at you, which may include having run away from a BG, etc.

It is a simple fact that those who ignore their physical conditioning as part of their overall strategy to deal with potential threats (1) do so at their own peril (2) are a liability to those who know it's an essential part of the keep-my-ass-alive equation.

Good luck.

WillBrink
09-16-09, 16:41
I'm still wondering why one would spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours preparing for something that is statistically unlikely to happen and ignore something that is statistically much more likely to kill them.

Which, as you know, is my opening line from my seminars for LEOs...:cool:

epf
09-16-09, 16:44
I'm still wondering why one would spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours preparing for something that is statistically unlikely to happen and ignore something that is statistically much more likely to kill them.

Rob-

The Phenomenon of guys spending thousands of dollars and countless hours deciding how to attach a sling or which camo pattern on the flap of their recondo chest rig (two hobbies that I enjoy by the way:cool:) is dumbfounding and probably not going to be solved here. I read alot of forums and post rarely. It is often the same guys that will attack and condescend to some guy because his choice of gear/technique etc. will not " work in a real fight" who are not fighting fit. Being fit does not mean washboard abs or look any certain way. Fitness is about performance. We have all been to classes where there are guys who cannot get up form a knee after the first drill.

I am glad you pointed it out, but I doubt it will accomplish much.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 17:04
To a certain extent there is a difference between health and fitness but those differences are being glossed-over.

The first is general CV health, watching what you eat and moderate exercise stave off the effects of aging, but in the end most (if not everyone) still die from heart attacks. This is simply fitness, there is no survival, there is no tactical...it's just good health. I carry extra weight, but in this vein am I more or less healthy than a skinny guy who smokes, eats like crap and otherwise abuses his body even if he is thin?

The second is "survival" fitness meaning you can sustain the fight longer than the other guy. All other things being equal, it's still survival of the fittest. I don't think anyone seriously questions this truth. The key is then that you make sure that all other things are NOT equal....training, gear all seek to address those shortcomings and have been the explicit purpose of firearms since "Sam Colt made men equal."

As for why people spend money on a statistical near-impossibility...I think it's interesting anecdotally, but I would say that people focus on what they fear. Dying of a heart attack happens so much more often in advancing years that it is not commonly feared in our demographic in fact it's something of a running joke to say that eventually "everyone dies of a heart attack." What I think rob is talking about is dying of a heart attack at 45 which is as much about bad luck/genes as it is about lifestyle choices.

Gutshot John
09-16-09, 17:32
My point was only that conditioning plays an essential role in the ability of your top of the food chain combat shooters. It may simply be they can run away faster and farther, or drag a wounded person, carry loads, recoup faster from stress, etc., but higher up the food chain you go, the more emphasis on physical conditioning you will see, in addition to the other more obvious stuff. For the average person, physical performance can play a critical part of your survival in a confrontation, or other.



Again, only using extreme examples, and I am not in top tier SWAT condition either at 44 I assure you! Age, physical restrictions, etc all have to be factored in. It's a matter of staying in the best condition you can under your own set of circumstances.

There are no guarantees in any of it, it's about reducing the risk factors as best you can. but control them (ergo, greatly reduce you risk of CVD) you can. Life is 100% fatal, 100% of the time, in 100% of the people, so we're all going that way, like or not. It's an issue of stacking the deck in your favor for both functional healthy longevity or being able to physically deal with what life throws at you, which may include having run away from a BG, etc.

It is a simple fact that those who ignore their physical conditioning as part of their overall strategy to deal with potential threats (1) do so at their own peril (2) are a liability to those who know it's an essential part of the keep-my-ass-alive equation.

Good luck.

Sorry didn't see this earlier when I replied but I appreciate the thoughtful response and especially the part I bolded.

militarymoron
09-17-09, 10:51
Maybe not, depending on what level you're referring to, but I'm of the belief that it takes a lot more effort to be obese than it does to be thin. Forget activity levels for a minute and look strictly at excess body weight. To walk around at 300 lbs you have to WORK to maintain that level of fat. Your body does not just naturally balloon up. To build a house you need bricks and to build fat you need food.

rob, i'll have to disagree with you on this - i find it MUCH easier to balloon up than not. i can put away a 500 calorie burger in 5 minutes. to burn that off, it'll take an hour of aerobic activity.
to build fat you need food. i love good (tasting) food. i find it much easier to have access to food and eat than exercise. i don't have to move to eat. i have to move to exercise. it's easier to eat.
i'm 41. i'm increasingly finding that it takes more effort to maintain the same fitness level that i had when i was 20 or 30. my body naturally wants to get fat if i eat and don't work out. it takes effort to eat healthy food. i love fried food. i'm craving fried catfish right now.

that being said, i make the effort - both in maintaining a moderately healthy lifestyle and diet. i eat what i like in moderation. i exercise on a regular basis.

i think that being healthy (w/r to CV) and also 'fit' (strong, flexible etc), has a lot of pros and no cons (other than the effort it takes - both mentally, physically, and making the time to maintain it). whether it's for fighting, SHTF (yes, i said it), tying your shoe laces, getting in and out of the car - basically for everything you do except watch TV.

for me, getting fatter doesn't require much effort. all i need to do is eat more and move less. and enjoy the tast of my food. but being fatter requires more effort when i DO need to move, and that's why i try to keep off the fat (not weight).

p7fl
09-17-09, 11:56
This was an interesting topic to read over my lunch of a single slice of pizza with olives.
I work out every day, every day, mostly hard, sometimes if I am beat just a hike on the treadmill. It takes mental discipline to keep it up day in and day out. I may miss about 4 days a year.
I don’t care if someone is mildly or heavily overweight, but their credibility drops immediately when I hear them talking the tactical talk. I will listen, because you can never tell where a nugget will come.
But...please don’t tell me about mindset.
Jon
Age 60

Bill Bryant
09-17-09, 17:52
rob, i'll have to disagree with you on this - i find it MUCH easier to balloon up than not. i can put away a 500 calorie burger in 5 minutes. to burn that off, it'll take an hour of aerobic activity.
to build fat you need food. i love good (tasting) food. i find it much easier to have access to food and eat than exercise. i don't have to move to eat. i have to move to exercise. it's easier to eat.
i'm 41. i'm increasingly finding that it takes more effort to maintain the same fitness level that i had when i was 20 or 30. my body naturally wants to get fat if i eat and don't work out. it takes effort to eat healthy food. i love fried food. i'm craving fried catfish right now.

that being said, i make the effort - both in maintaining a moderately healthy lifestyle and diet. i eat what i like in moderation. i exercise on a regular basis.

i think that being healthy (w/r to CV) and also 'fit' (strong, flexible etc), has a lot of pros and no cons (other than the effort it takes - both mentally, physically, and making the time to maintain it). whether it's for fighting, SHTF (yes, i said it), tying your shoe laces, getting in and out of the car - basically for everything you do except watch TV.

for me, getting fatter doesn't require much effort. all i need to do is eat more and move less. and enjoy the tast of my food. but being fatter requires more effort when i DO need to move, and that's why i try to keep off the fat (not weight).I think maybe what was meant by the earlier comment was that living obese takes more effort than living thinner. Getting thin takes much mental effort in the form of self-control over the urge to eat. Getting fat takes nothing but milkshakes, fries, beer, and pizza. Once thin though, living thin is easier than living fat. Live fat and try walking uphill for a mile with someone who is living thin. Live fat and try mowing the lawn next door to someone who is living thin. Living thin is less exhausting than living fat.

militarymoron
09-17-09, 23:40
I think maybe what was meant by the earlier comment was that living obese takes more effort than living thinner.
could be. didn't read it that way when i answered.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 12:52
I agree. The irony in these photos is amazing. Here these people are, training for what one day may be a life and death scenario; but their so fat and out of shape that they couldn't do a dash to the 100yd line with out suffering a massive heart attack. They're training to save their lives should they ever need to use a gun, yet they're far more likely to die an early death from being obese. And thats just the beginning. The above type of people are armchair warriors living out a dream getting to play dress up and play with their high dollar rifles doing drills.

Truth of the matter is, if the S ever HTF, these people, despite all their super tactical training from high dollar instructors; would be sitting ducks because they wouldn't be able to make it from their gun safe to the stop sign at the front of their driveway with out running out of breath, much less with 40lbs of shit on them.


If in a gun fight, I'd much rather be able to run a 200yd dash in 30sec with 40lbs of gear on me than have all sorts of cool guy tactical training. both would be even better....


Speaking of silly posts, this is one of them.

I have several friends that would be classified as "obese." Can they run/move pretty well for a guy over 6 foot and 250-300? Sure can. You can be overweight and STILL be mobile (ever watch football and see some of these guys move)??

As Civy, the average distance of a gun fight is conversational distance. No running, no fast roping or hiking 8 miles up hill in the jungle. So gun fighting ability in ones home, parking lot, mall, church, etc is VERY important (above physical fitness).
Now could a lot these guys in the pics stand to lose some weight and watch what they eat so they will live a longer life? Sure could, but this has zero to do with fighting with a weapon.



C4

rob_s
09-18-09, 12:56
I think maybe what was meant by the earlier comment was that living obese takes more effort than living thinner. Getting thin takes much mental effort in the form of self-control over the urge to eat. Getting fat takes nothing but milkshakes, fries, beer, and pizza. Once thin though, living thin is easier than living fat. Live fat and try walking uphill for a mile with someone who is living thin. Live fat and try mowing the lawn next door to someone who is living thin. Living thin is less exhausting than living fat.

Yes and no.

You do still have to feed the gut. It's not like you gorge until you're 100 lbs overweight and then switch to carrots and water 3x a day and maintain that weight. You have to make a choice to eat the bacon cheeseburger instead of the grilled chicken sandwich, and just eating one of those cheeseburgers isn't going to do it. You have to feed the gut 3 (or 6?) meals a day.

rob_s
09-18-09, 13:00
I have several friends that would be classified as "obese." Can they run/move pretty well for a guy over 6 foot and 250-300? Sure can. You can be overweight and STILL be mobile (ever watch football and see some of these guys move)??

As Civy, the average distance of a gun fight is conversational distance. No running, no fast roping or hiking 8 miles up hill in the jungle. So gun fighting ability in ones home, parking lot, mall, church, etc is VERY important (above physical fitness).
Now could a lot these guys in the pics stand to lose some weight and watch what they eat so they will live a longer life? Sure could, but this has zero to do with fighting with a weapon.



C4

There are many facets to fitness as it pertains to survival. The least of these is being able to survive a "typical civilian" violent encounter. It's least by an even greater factor when you consider the unlikelihood of this encounter even occurring.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 13:02
This was an interesting topic to read over my lunch of a single slice of pizza with olives.
I work out every day, every day, mostly hard, sometimes if I am beat just a hike on the treadmill. It takes mental discipline to keep it up day in and day out. I may miss about 4 days a year.
I don’t care if someone is mildly or heavily overweight, but their credibility drops immediately when I hear them talking the tactical talk. I will listen, because you can never tell where a nugget will come.
But...please don’t tell me about mindset.
Jon
Age 60

Most of your top instructors are overweight. Why? Because they spent 20yrs eating 1,000 calories a day and jumping out of planes.

They retire and are no longer going full speed, but are still eating the same.

To ignore their tactical knowledge because they have a gut is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.


C4

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 13:15
There are many facets to fitness as it pertains to survival. The least of these is being able to survive a "typical civilian" violent encounter. It's least by an even greater factor when you consider the unlikelihood of this encounter even occurring.

When talking about being "in shape" there are different levels of this. Military/commando "in shape", power lifter "in shape", Banker/desk monkey "in shape."

The desk monkey is not going to need to hump 100lbs 25 miles a day. He can still be in shape for HIS "needs." His needs are met by maintaining a certain weight, eating quality food, lowering his cholesterol and exercising at least 3 times a week.

I personally think that everyone should evercise, watch the type of food they eat and maintain a weight that works for their height/body structure. I know that I exercise in some form more than I shoot. This is done for one reason only though. To live a longer life.

I can control most everything in my life. I cannot control when someone wants to do me or my family harm. No matter if my chances are better that I will be struck by lightening, I will not allow anyone to do them harm. This is why I work to become as proficient as possible with all forms of firearms.


C4

Romeo Foxtrot
09-18-09, 14:10
Speaking of silly posts, this is one of them.

I have several friends that would be classified as "obese." Can they run/move pretty well for a guy over 6 foot and 250-300? Sure can. You can be overweight and STILL be mobile (ever watch football and see some of these guys move)??

As Civy, the average distance of a gun fight is conversational distance. No running, no fast roping or hiking 8 miles up hill in the jungle. So gun fighting ability in ones home, parking lot, mall, church, etc is VERY important (above physical fitness).
Now could a lot these guys in the pics stand to lose some weight and watch what they eat so they will live a longer life? Sure could, but this has zero to do with fighting with a weapon.



C4

Silly? lol alright. There is no denying that a fat out of shape person is not as mobile as an inshape person. What makes it funny is that if the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance.. therefore while they may never need to run, fast rope, or hike 8 miles up hill through a jungle as you say, then they also dont need a plate carrier with 20lbs of plates, 8 rifle mags, a side arm in a thigh rig with 3 mags, a medic kit, a knife, multi tool, spare batteries and all the other shananigans they carry to a carbine course.

So since the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance and there is no need for any substantial amount of physical fitness, there is also no need to wear all that other "operator" stuff like chest rigs and body armor and tacticool pants.

If thats what these guys are preparing for, then maybe they should be in classes where they practice rolling out of a bed, grabbing the gun off the nightstand and calling 911.

What makes it ironic is that these guys are all decked out like superdeltaseals, because they're preparing to one day live out their SHTF wet dream where they throw on all their gear and set out across the land to save the world like Christian Bale in the Terminator... yet they couldnt make it across their back yard with out running out of breath. You find me an overweight man that can run a 8min mile for 3 miles with 25lbs and ill be humbled. If you cant do that, then your SHTF dream where you run around in body armor is doomed from the get go.

Gettin out on the firing line all pimped out like an "operator" is not preparing you for a spontaneous gunfight at coffee table distances. If thats what these guys are seriously preparing for, then they need to be preparing a little differently.

The people out there on that firing line all decked out operator gear with pimped m4's aint preparing for a mugging... they're out there learning skills in case things get super ugly, as in real ugly. and if you are gonna shoot and train for things gettin super ugly, you better train to move like things are gettin super ugly. better thrown in a good fitness program to with that shootin one. That right there sir, is a fact, that is nothing silly.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 15:34
Silly? lol alright. There is no denying that a fat out of shape person is not as mobile as an inshape person. What makes it funny is that if the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance.. therefore while they may never need to run, fast rope, or hike 8 miles up hill through a jungle as you say, then they also dont need a plate carrier with 20lbs of plates, 8 rifle mags, a side arm in a thigh rig with 3 mags, a medic kit, a knife, multi tool, spare batteries and all the other shananigans they carry to a carbine course.

I am guessing that you have never attended a shooting school. The reason that they are generally using plates or a plate carrier and 8 mags, med kit, etc is because the course REQUIRES IT. Are they wearing all that stuff when they are sitting at home?? Of course not.

In todays world where bad guys (on the civy side) are using soft and hard armor that and there is no reason why a civy cannot have the same at their disposal or keep 8 mags, a flashlight and a med kit around for all the obvious reasons.


So since the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance and there is no need for any substantial amount of physical fitness, there is also no need to wear all that other "operator" stuff like chest rigs and body armor and tacticool pants.

You are right, but a lot of that stuff makes it MUCH easier to attend a class with, conceal a handgun, knife, spare mag, etc.

You associating that stuff with people jumping out of an airplane. That just isn't the case. Most of those things are just normal items for a CCW holder.



If thats what these guys are preparing for, then maybe they should be in classes where they practice rolling out of a bed, grabbing the gun off the nightstand and calling 911.

I like to follow the motto, "prepare for the worst and hope for the best." That means I have hard and soft armor, lots of mags, AR's, ammo, pistols, knives and flashlights at my disposal.

Some of the classes I have attended start you out from the bedroom, hear a loud noise and you go investigate with a pistol and a light (nothing else). Then there are other classes (like CQB training) that require plates. This is not done to make the "fat" civy think he is a Ninja, but to protect him from an AD/ND.


What makes it ironic is that these guys are all decked out like superdeltaseals, because they're preparing to one day live out their SHTF wet dream where they throw on all their gear and set out across the land to save the world like Christian Bale in the Terminator... yet they couldnt make it across their back yard with out running out of breath. You find me an overweight man that can run a 8min mile for 3 miles with 25lbs and ill be humbled. If you cant do that, then your SHTF dream where you run around in body armor is doomed from the get go.


Some may. The guys I generally train with do not think any of this. We just like to have as many options as possible.


Gettin out on the firing line all pimped out like an "operator" is not preparing you for a spontaneous gunfight at coffee table distances. If thats what these guys are seriously preparing for, then they need to be preparing a little differently.

Sure. There are classes for basic fighting and then advanced stuff. I think most people have all that gear though because the instructor dictates the load out.

Is that the case in every carbine school (for instance)? Some losers do believe that the more gear they own, the more HSLD they are. I do not thnk this is the norm though.


The people out there on that firing line all decked out operator gear with pimped m4's aint preparing for a mugging... they're out there learning skills in case things get super ugly, as in real ugly. and if you are gonna shoot and train for things gettin super ugly, you better train to move like things are gettin super ugly. better thrown in a good fitness program to with that shootin one. That right there sir, is a fact, that is nothing silly.

Your kind of like a broken record with this. There are CCW classes, there are CQB/Home Defense classes, there are carbine schools, there are shotgun and AK schools. Each will require different things.

Having attended .Mil and LE only classes (as a Civy) I simply removed the parts of the training that did not apply to me as a Civy.

Fitness is all great, but is not going to save your life in a gun fight (which is the purpose of attending a training class).


C4

rob_s
09-18-09, 15:37
Fitness is all great, but is not going to save your life in a gun fight (which is the purpose of attending a training class).


and which circuitously avoids the original point, which is that worrying about "saving your life in a gunfight" is pretty "silly" (to use your word) when the person is hundreds, if not thousands, of times more likely to drop dead of a heart attack at dinner after the class.

RogerinTPA
09-18-09, 15:40
Rob-

The Phenomenon of guys spending thousands of dollars and countless hours deciding how to attach a sling or which camo pattern on the flap of their recondo chest rig (two hobbies that I enjoy by the way:cool:) is dumbfounding and probably not going to be solved here. I read alot of forums and post rarely. It is often the same guys that will attack and condescend to some guy because his choice of gear/technique etc. will not " work in a real fight" who are not fighting fit. Being fit does not mean washboard abs or look any certain way. Fitness is about performance. We have all been to classes where there are guys who cannot get up form a knee after the first drill.

I am glad you pointed it out, but I doubt it will accomplish much.

Agreed. Most of the folks in any particular class are not as serious about firearms proficiency as the folks on this board. Many have spent major dollars to attend a course, then never fire that weapon again until they decide to take the next course. One fact that we must recognize is that fitness for combat, is a completely different animal from fitness for survival/shtf scenarios. Most folks have many different thoughts on what level of preparedness (physical fitness) they think they should be in on both subjects. I have witnessed countless brawls where the most unlikely victor, whether being a smaller stature person, scrawny or over weight, won the fight out of sheer determination. In combat, I have seen the most unlikely E-4 cutie pie female in this particular platoon, rally the troops and lead a counter assault and win the battle, after the leadership fell apart, shortly after taking fire on their convoy. I have personally witnessed highly trained, two physically fit men (weight lifter types), crumble psychologically, after a mortar round landed 100 meters away. When I ran over to render assistance and could find no wounds, they said they couldn't stand up or move. Our MD came over to assist, later telling me that both of their nervous systems shut down from fear. The old adage of "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" was very much in evidence. The most important trait or instinct of all, is mindset and the will to win.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 15:48
and which circuitously avoids the original point, which is that worrying about "saving your life in a gunfight" is pretty "silly" (to use your word) when the person is hundreds, if not thousands, of times more likely to drop dead of a heart attack at dinner after the class.

In the small county I live in, there are 1.5 murders a year and 369 assaults that would have turned into something worse if something wasn't done.

I cannot predict when one of these events is coming. I have already drawn my weapon as a CCW holder. So I have almost "been there."

I am on the same page that people need to pay WAY more attention to their physical health and should be exercising more than they shoot. With that said, people that make fun of "fat guys" in a training class is really quite stupid.

If they do not want to watch what they eat, that is fine. Should they stop all weapons training because they are fat? No way. Two wrongs do NOT make one right!

Some days I wish that the errornet had a portal that you could physically stand in front of the person you are calling names (like fat). I would have some of the guys from the recent Haught Shotgun class (to include Rob), Vickers, Super Dave, etc waiting for them. I am fairly certain NO ONE would say word one. It would be a very polite conversation to say the least. ;)

Point being that size matters in a none weapon fight. Would I take my buddy Joe (that was in the SG class) who is a "biscuit short of 300lbs" in a fight over a 180lbs "fit guy?" You betcha.



C4

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 15:52
Agreed. Most of the folks in any particular class are not as serious about firearms proficiency as the folks on this board. Many have spent major dollars to attend a course, then never fire that weapon again until they decide to take the next course. One fact that we must recognize is that fitness for combat, is a completely different animal from fitness for survival/shtf scenarios. Most folks have many different thoughts on what level of preparedness (physical fitness) they think they should be in on both subjects. I have witnessed countless brawls where the most unlikely victor, whether being a smaller stature person, scrawny or over weight, won the fight out of sheer determination. In combat, I have seen the most unlikely E-4 cutie pie female in this particular platoon, rally the troops and lead a counter assault and win the battle, after the leadership fell apart, shortly after taking fire on their convoy. I have personally witnessed highly trained, two physically fit men (weight lifter types), crumble psychologically, after a mortar round landed 100 meters away. When I ran over to render assistance and could find no wounds, they said they couldn't stand up or move. Our MD came over to assist, later telling me that both of their nervous systems shut down from fear. The old adage of "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" was very much in evidence. The most important trait or instinct of all, is mindset and the will to win.

You are correct Sir. Attitude/mindset is the MOST important thing in a fight. Physical fitness, training, etc matters not.


C4

rob_s
09-18-09, 15:53
Point being that size matters in a none weapon fight.

actually, that is entirely NOT the point of this thread. You keep coming back to it as if it matters. It's not about who would win a fist fight, or who would win a gun fight, it's about an odd set of priorities where one ignores a likely threat to focus on another that is so unlikely to happen as to be statistically insignificant.

It would be like charging into a room full of guys with guns, running at the knifeweilding man all the way on the other side of the room.

rob_s
09-18-09, 15:55
In the small county I live in, there are 1.5 murders a year and 369 assaults that would have turned into something worse if something wasn't done.


Out of how many people? And how many of those were crack-whores, drug dealers, gang members, homeless, drunk, out where they were much more likely to encounter a violent act, etc.? Those numbers get whittled down REAL fast when you remove those that are putting themselves in bad situations.

rob_s
09-18-09, 15:55
Attitude/mindset is the MOST important thing in a fight.

The attitude is exactly what I don't understand.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 15:57
actually, that is entirely NOT the point of this thread. You keep coming back to it as if it matters. It's not about who would win a fist fight, or who would win a gun fight, it's about an odd set of priorities where one ignores a likely threat to focus on another that is so unlikely to happen as to be statistically insignificant.

It would be like charging into a room full of guys with guns, running at the knifeweilding man all the way on the other side of the room.

The thread has gone down many paths Rob. I am just clearing some things up for folks that believe a physically fit person is going to be able to take someone that has over 100lbs on them and a mean disposition. ;)

Why people choose to eat McDonalds everyday, I have no idea. That is their thing I guess and I won't judge them for it. I DO judge people that intend to own a firearm for protection and do NOT take training.


C4

rob_s
09-18-09, 15:59
I DO judge people that intend to own a firearm for protection and do NOT take training.


I agree with you completely on this.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 16:01
Out of how many people? And how many of those were crack-whores, drug dealers, gang members, homeless, drunk, out where they were much more likely to encounter a violent act, etc.? Those numbers get whittled down REAL fast when you remove those that are putting themselves in bad situations.

County is about 600 square Miles and has a population of about 91k in 2008.

We do not really have a drug or gang problem. I have never seen a homeless person in this county (am sure there are some though).

My point was that the number of murders and assaults for my small farming community is LOW, but there are still at least 1 murder a year and an assult dailey. The statistics are MUCH MUCH worse in larger cities (as we all know). So even with the odds as low as they are for me to have to defend myself, this is VERY important me.


C4

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 16:02
The attitude is exactly what I don't understand.

Not sure what is so hard about it. If you have the "fight" in you, you will win. If you do not, then you will lose (no matter how "physically fit" you are).


C4

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 16:04
I agree with you completely on this.

See how easy that was. :D

I am totally onboard with paying attention what you fit in your mouth and your activity level.

I get a physical every year and get my cholesterol checked. This year, it came back as high so I am taking steps to lower it.


C4

epf
09-18-09, 16:04
Silly? lol alright. There is no denying that a fat out of shape person is not as mobile as an inshape person. What makes it funny is that if the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance.. therefore while they may never need to run, fast rope, or hike 8 miles up hill through a jungle as you say, then they also dont need a plate carrier with 20lbs of plates, 8 rifle mags, a side arm in a thigh rig with 3 mags, a medic kit, a knife, multi tool, spare batteries and all the other shananigans they carry to a carbine course.

So since the average civilian gun fight takes place at conversational distance and there is no need for any substantial amount of physical fitness, there is also no need to wear all that other "operator" stuff like chest rigs and body armor and tacticool pants.

If thats what these guys are preparing for, then maybe they should be in classes where they practice rolling out of a bed, grabbing the gun off the nightstand and calling 911.

What makes it ironic is that these guys are all decked out like superdeltaseals, because they're preparing to one day live out their SHTF wet dream where they throw on all their gear and set out across the land to save the world like Christian Bale in the Terminator... yet they couldnt make it across their back yard with out running out of breath. You find me an overweight man that can run a 8min mile for 3 miles with 25lbs and ill be humbled. If you cant do that, then your SHTF dream where you run around in body armor is doomed from the get go.

Gettin out on the firing line all pimped out like an "operator" is not preparing you for a spontaneous gunfight at coffee table distances. If thats what these guys are seriously preparing for, then they need to be preparing a little differently.

The people out there on that firing line all decked out operator gear with pimped m4's aint preparing for a mugging... they're out there learning skills in case things get super ugly, as in real ugly. and if you are gonna shoot and train for things gettin super ugly, you better train to move like things are gettin super ugly. better thrown in a good fitness program to with that shootin one. That right there sir, is a fact, that is nothing silly.



:eek: YOU SIR....have said a mouth-full. Hilarious, but destined to either hurt the feelings of those who are in it for the fantasy or, more likely, be ignored all together.

Romeo Foxtrot
09-18-09, 16:59
Some days I wish that the errornet had a portal that you could physically stand in front of the person you are calling names (like fat). I would have some of the guys from the recent Haught Shotgun class (to include Rob), Vickers, Super Dave, etc waiting for them. I am fairly certain NO ONE would say word one. It would be a very polite conversation to say the least. ;)


Just for the record, I'm not referring to people like Vickers that have been there and done that and are true through and through hard core killing machines. My comments were directed at all the wanna be ninjasnipers out there... and I see plenty of them.

I'm in better shape than 95% of the people I come across on a daily basis, and I have no doubt in my mind at all, that Larry Vickers could kick my ass. Vickers earned his right to put on some weight. Hes aging now, and most likely his body cant take what it could when he was 20. Not to mention, hes lived a life of being physical and mental hardship. Vickers has put out. Hes been cold, wet and cold, hot, tired, hungry, and hurt. I think Mr. Vickers deserves to sit back and relax a little at this point. As a matter of fact, if Larry Vickers wants to have a plate of Outback Cheese fries, hes earned em, and he can have em on my tab. Thanks for your service Mr. Vickers!

My comments were directed at all the porky level 5 warlock wannabe's whos greatest hardship they've ever faced was the scorching hot, dehydrating uphill walk from the frontdoor to the icecream truck down the street.

To keep this post on topic...

Rob, I agree with you that most Americans really need to exercise more and watch what they eat on a regular basis a little better, to maintain a minimum amount of health. It is amazing the amount of fat people I see these days. I think a lot of it not only has to do with our diets, but with our lack of exercise. Far fewer people in America have labor intensive jobs. Most people, sit on their ass for 8-12hrs a day behind a computer, or driving a truck, an airplane etc...



:eek: YOU SIR....have said a mouth-full. Hilarious, but destined to either hurt the feelings of those who are in it for the fantasy or, more likely, be ignored all together.

I'm with you, its was a combination of both. Peoples feelings will get hurt because of that post, so they will ignore it, chalking me up as a hater;)

Bill Bryant
09-18-09, 17:30
If you have the "fight" in you, you will win. Anybody with enough "fight" in him to win a fight with a bad guy has enough "fight" in him to win a fight with obesity. I highly question whether someone who says he just can't get rid of those extra 30 lbs he's carrying around no matter how hard he tries actually has any battle-winning "fight" in him.

Gutshot John
09-18-09, 18:00
Anybody with enough "fight" in him to win a fight with a bad guy has enough "fight" in him to win a fight with obesity. I highly question whether someone who says he just can't get rid of those extra 30 lbs he's carrying around no matter how hard he tries actually has any battle-winning "fight" in him.

Way overstating the case. Broadly speaking you're correct, but on an individual level, you'd be making a huge mistake to underestimate someone you perceive as fat.

Heavy Metal
09-18-09, 18:05
Another board has their motto as: "Get Both"

I am doing just that.

Bill Bryant
09-18-09, 18:11
Way overstating the case. Broadly speaking you're correct, but on an individual level, you'd be making a huge mistake to underestimate someone you perceive as fat.I don't underestimate a fat man. I'm not saying that a fat man has no fight in him. He may indeed. He may be able to kill me easily with one hand tied behind his back. I'm just saying that a fat man who does have some fight in him is fooling himself if he claims he can't lose weight. Anybody who has anything like "THE MINDSET" when it comes to fighting is someone who is making excuses if is thinks he can't lose weight. He can. He just won't, for whatever reason.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 19:00
Just for the record, I'm not referring to people like Vickers that have been there and done that and are true through and through hard core killing machines. My comments were directed at all the wanna be ninjasnipers out there... and I see plenty of them.

I'm in better shape than 95% of the people I come across on a daily basis, and I have no doubt in my mind at all, that Larry Vickers could kick my ass. Vickers earned his right to put on some weight. Hes aging now, and most likely his body cant take what it could when he was 20. Not to mention, hes lived a life of being physical and mental hardship. Vickers has put out. Hes been cold, wet and cold, hot, tired, hungry, and hurt. I think Mr. Vickers deserves to sit back and relax a little at this point. As a matter of fact, if Larry Vickers wants to have a plate of Outback Cheese fries, hes earned em, and he can have em on my tab. Thanks for your service Mr. Vickers!

My comments were directed at all the porky level 5 warlock wannabe's whos greatest hardship they've ever faced was the scorching hot, dehydrating uphill walk from the frontdoor to the icecream truck down the street.

To keep this post on topic...

Rob, I agree with you that most Americans really need to exercise more and watch what they eat on a regular basis a little better, to maintain a minimum amount of health. It is amazing the amount of fat people I see these days. I think a lot of it not only has to do with our diets, but with our lack of exercise. Far fewer people in America have labor intensive jobs. Most people, sit on their ass for 8-12hrs a day behind a computer, or driving a truck, an airplane etc...




I'm with you, its was a combination of both. Peoples feelings will get hurt because of that post, so they will ignore it, chalking me up as a hater;)

Hmmm, ok so LAV gets a pass. How bout none CAG guys? What about SEAL's? Rangers? Pilots? Firefighters?

I was unaware that if you are "overweight", own tactical gear and attend a training class that you are a "ninjasniper." I am not sure what classes you are attending, but I am not meeting these people. I am sure you are not just looking at AAR thinking that the "fat" people in that class were "ninjasnipers." Because that would be very large tactical error on your part.

C4

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 19:05
Anybody with enough "fight" in him to win a fight with a bad guy has enough "fight" in him to win a fight with obesity. I highly question whether someone who says he just can't get rid of those extra 30 lbs he's carrying around no matter how hard he tries actually has any battle-winning "fight" in him.

Did it ever occur to anyone that not everyone is consumed with how much they weigh???

The guys I know and train with (that are on the heavy side) have no interest in losing weight. I imagine if they actually wanted to do it, they would.

C4

Romeo Foxtrot
09-18-09, 19:09
Hmmm, ok so LAV gets a pass. How bout none CAG guys? What about SEAL's? Rangers? Pilots? Firefighters?

yea they get passes too. a new friend of mine is little on the heavy side and is an ex seal, hes still a beast, though. great guy too, id let him take my sister out if he was interested. i thought i was clear it was types like Vickers. pilots? my dads a pilot, he sure dont get a pass. he really needs to get his shit together. he used to be about 6'4 190, now hes 240, and he aint gotten any taller.


I was unaware that if you are "overweight", own tactical gear and attend a training class that you are a "ninjasniper." I am not sure what classes you are attending, but I am not meeting these people. I am sure you are not just looking at AAR thinking that the "fat" people in that class were "ninjasnipers." Because that would be very large tactical error on your part.


Thats actually exactly what im doing, and its a huge turn off about taking classes. hopefully your right and I'm wrong about these people. I'd love to take a Trident Concepts and Magpul carbine course.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 19:17
yea they get passes too. a new friend of mine is little on the heavy side and is an ex seal, hes still a beast, though. great guy too, id let him take my sister out if he was interested. i thought i was clear it was types like Vickers. pilots? my dads a pilot, he sure dont get a pass. he really needs to get his shit together. he used to be about 6'4 190, now hes 240, and he aint gotten any taller.



Thats actually exactly what im doing, and its a huge turn off about taking classes. hopefully your right and I'm wrong about these people. I'd love to take a Trident Concepts and Magpul carbine course.

Dude! Your killing me. You have NEVER been to a shooting school and your calling people that are overweight that ACTUALLY take the time and money to go train are "ninjasnipers?" WTF OVER???

Don't type another word. Log off from M4C.


C4

Romeo Foxtrot
09-18-09, 19:24
Dude! Your killing me. You have NEVER been to a shooting school and your calling people that are overweight that ACTUALLY take the time and money to go train are "ninjasnipers?" WTF OVER???

Don't type another word. Log off from M4C.


C4

lol. i've always gone by the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" and when i see people at my local range that fit the profile in that pic, i put two and two together. the fat people at my range must give the fat people that take classes a bad name. Not to mention, I met a certain severely obese person from a certain company thats in this business, and let me tell you, he fit the profile for sure.

id love to go to a class, though. maybe one day. i dont have the money right now. ill soon be in the military though, so hopefully theyll teach me how to pull triggers and kick down doors a little better.

C4IGrant
09-18-09, 19:36
lol. i've always gone by the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words" and when i see people at my local range that fit the profile in that pic, i put two and two together. the fat people at my range must give the fat people that take classes a bad name. Not to mention, I met a certain severely obese person from a certain company thats in this business, and let me tell you, he fit the profile for sure.

id love to go to a class, though. maybe one day. i dont have the money right now. ill soon be in the military though, so hopefully theyll teach me how to pull triggers and kick down doors a little better.

Stereotyping people is not really a good idea, but you will figure that out as you get older.

Companies hire people for their ability (not their weight). So meeting an employee of a company that is obese means nothing.

Do me a favor, the next time you find a fat guy with a gun, go up to them and tell them what you think.


C4

OPPFOR
09-18-09, 20:11
It is a simple fact that those who ignore their physical conditioning as part of their overall strategy to deal with potential threats (1) do so at their own peril (2) are a liability to those who know it's an essential part of the keep-my-ass-alive equation.

Well said!

p7fl
09-18-09, 20:17
M
To ignore their tactical knowledge because they have a gut is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
C4

You are misquoting me. But that is OK. It is just my view and not a fact. ;)

Skip40204
09-18-09, 20:22
where do I begin.........

I am 41 6' 2" 250lbs I was in the Army for 4 years. I was no where near what Larry Vickers was. But I did my 4 years worked hard got a few ribbons and was honorably discharged. I am now a firefighter in Louisville, KY. I have been for 12 years and have been very successful ( good reviews, awards and promotions).

I work out 4 times a week. 2 of those days I take Krav Maga that I have studied for 2 years. My partner is 30 years old and ex college rugby player.

I give you this background because I am on of those overweight people in the picture.

It must be nice to sit in front of the computer and judge others. You make me laugh.

Thanks for looking out for your classmates Grant!!!!!

C4IGrant
09-19-09, 09:23
You are misquoting me. But that is OK. It is just my view and not a fact. ;)

Really? What part?

You are entitled to your view, but would suggest opening your mind and taking some training classes from those "fat" people as you may just learn something.


C4

C4IGrant
09-19-09, 09:26
where do I begin.........

I am 41 6' 2" 250lbs I was in the Army for 4 years. I was no where near what Larry Vickers was. But I did my 4 years worked hard got a few ribbons and was honorably discharged. I am now a firefighter in Louisville, KY. I have been for 12 years and have been very successful ( good reviews, awards and promotions).

I work out 4 times a week. 2 of those days I take Krav Maga that I have studied for 2 years. My partner is 30 years old and ex college rugby player.

I give you this background because I am on of those overweight people in the picture.

It must be nice to sit in front of the computer and judge others. You make me laugh.

Thanks for looking out for your classmates Grant!!!!!


Good to meet you and thanks for coming to the class!



C4

Bill Bryant
09-19-09, 10:12
The guys I know and train with (that are on the heavy side) have no interest in losing weight. Then they're either ignoring or in denial about a deadly threat.

I respect anyone who's trying to equip himself to face deadly threats that might come his way. Going to classes and training for threat scenarios that involve response with a weapon gets my thumbs up every time. Bravo to everybody doing it. If you ever have to face a threat that needs an armed response, you'll be ready to deal with it the right way.

But why would anybody with the resolve to be prepared to face threats that are only possible and are in fact very improbable be uninterested in dealing with a very real, very deadly threat hanging right there over his very own belt?

Bill Bryant
09-19-09, 12:02
Somehow it seems appropriate that this thread have a link to this one:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35543

:D

C4IGrant
09-19-09, 12:40
Then they're either ignoring or in denial about a deadly threat.

I respect anyone who's trying to equip himself to face deadly threats that might come his way. Going to classes and training for threat scenarios that involve response with a weapon gets my thumbs up every time. Bravo to everybody doing it. If you ever have to face a threat that needs an armed response, you'll be ready to deal with it the right way.

But why would anybody with the resolve to be prepared to face threats that are only possible and are in fact very improbable be uninterested in dealing with a very real, very deadly threat hanging right there over his very own belt?

Possibly, but some really just don't care. Living a short life doing whatever they want is better than a long life of watching everything they eat, drink and smoke.

My father was this way. He lived a hard life (on purpose) and died at 55. I don't think he really had any regrets.



C4

Bill Bryant
09-19-09, 14:15
My father was this way. He lived a hard life (on purpose) and died at 55. Meaning absolutely no disrespect to your father, that's too close for comfort. I'm 52.

Honu
09-19-09, 17:22
interesting thread :)

OK being 46 I am having a hard time staying and getting back in shape :) but plan to :)

what is survival shape ? when I was turning 30 we got this idea to live off the land and survive with out going to a store or watching TV no electricity etc... and living in a tent (no house) and gathering are food etc.. we did some trading for food fish for meat etc.. that might happen in real world scenario
so I did survive for 6 months and it was TOUGH I never went hungry but I went thirsty a lot !!!! even on a tropical island water is hard to get !!! food was easy in a sense

so even though I am 46 and out of shape compared to a lean 20 something I bet I will last better as I have been their done that and mentally know whats coming at me

I guess to me being in shape is part mental with some physical !

in a survival situation that I put my self in
I tried not ever have to run anywhere or hike anywhere or do much of anything that could make me sprain my ankle or get hurt etc.. burn extra food and require more water surviving turned out to be more mental than physical
the drain of getting drinkable water EVERY DAY !!! getting food EVERY MEAL !!! got old really really quick !!!!!
and the first few weeks were tough and after a few months it got REALLY TOUGH not physically but mentally

so I think in reality being mentally in shape is much more important than being physically in shape as you will get in shape if things get tough purely cause your body will adapt to having less food and more work etc.. but if mentally you fall apart being in shape does nothing for you


I used to always head out for a days outing with nothing but a knife on my side and would get my snacks and water as I was going along ! sometimes these would turn into a overnight outing
it was a great learning experience and I did this with some training for worst case scenario in mind


so getting in survival shape to me will again be mental and learning my surroundings (having moved to the mainland recently) and the physical will fall in behind naturally

rob_s
09-20-09, 07:46
Not sure what is so hard about it. If you have the "fight" in you, you will win. If you do not, then you will lose (no matter how "physically fit" you are).


C4

Honestly? I wonder about that. If they don't have the mindset, dedication, and willpower to beat the health-related threats, I would wonder about the physical threats as well.

rob_s
09-20-09, 07:49
I DO judge people that intend to own a firearm for protection and do NOT take training.


Now that we've agreed on something... ;)

Here's the thing about this. Many of the posts on this site are from people sitting back and feeling all superior about themselves in comparison to members on other sites because they actually go out and train. and they "judge people that intend to own a firearm for protection and do NOT take training".

What is so different about similarly judging people that don't take their health or physical well-being seriously?

rob_s
09-20-09, 07:55
My point was that the number of murders and assaults for my small farming community is LOW, but there are still at least 1 murder a year and an assult dailey. The statistics are MUCH MUCH worse in larger cities (as we all know). So even with the odds as low as they are for me to have to defend myself, this is VERY important me.


But you're acting as if those murders are just randomly happening to any old person. I would bet that ain't so. Murders are typically domestics, gang-related, related to other crimes (one burglar killing another, etc.). This romanticized notion in the gun community of the random attack on a family of four while leaving the well-lit movie theater on a Saturday afternoon just doesn't happen the way that these guys make it out to. Can it happen? of course. Does it happen? perhaps. Is it anywhere near likely to happen? Not even remotely close.

Yet guys will spend literally tens of thousands of dollars a year on guns, gear, ammo, training etc. to "prepare" for that 1 in one million (and that's not an exaggeration) possibility that they may be attacked AND be in a position to use that training, but won't put a fork down and push back from the table (which is free, and takes zero time or other resources, BTW) to save themselves from a very, very real risk of attack by disease.

Gutshot John
09-20-09, 13:40
This debate is somewhat circular as there is a difference between "health" and "fitness" that's keeps being overlooked. As Will Brink said, life is 100% fatal 100% of the time, rarely is there such statistical certainty, we almost never get a choice in where/how we die, even if you make all the right choices.

Clearly fitness, being able to move, go over obstacles, get into shooting positions, perform any number of basic tactics are impeded by a "food blister" or similar unfitness. That is incontrovertible and so obvious as to say "duh." But physical impediments might always exist that need to be overcome and training is the best way to do this.

For myself taking tactical classes has made me much more aware about the need I have to lose the weight I've gained over the years, but even when I was in the best shape of my life, running a ~18 minute/3 mile USMC PFT and maxing out my situp score (though not the pull-ups once they forbid the "kip"), I still had a spare tire that I couldn't get rid of even in my early 20s. Out of sheer boredom when stuck on the "Rock" Okinawa, I worked out virtually everyday but I'm a big guy, I've always been a big guy. Eventually I reach a point of diminishing returns well before I get skinny like Rob so the effort I have to put in to get there is a lot more difficult than it is for him. I know you don't believe it rob, but respectfully it's true. People need to figure out what works for them, but it's not about lack of will.

Fitness for me is no longer about "working out" it needed to become a lifestyle, if it's a chore eventually anyone's willpower will diminish, if it's "play" than the opposite happens. For me I'm just trying to live a more active lifestyle, as such tactical courses are "play" for me. In my daily life, I'm increasing the frequency of activities I do anyway. Where I used to take my dogs to the park once a week, I now take my dogs for an hour walk every day. I hike, I camp, I hunt, I swim, I've taken up martial arts again, all of which require a certain level of fitness, but it's not like I'm "working out" which I find exceptionally tedious, so yes perhaps I lack the "will" since I'm not a skinny dude by any stretch and I've got a long way to go but I know what works and doesn't work for me. In that vein, I like to cook and eat, I'm not going to go on an egg white, granola and yogurt diet and be able to sustain it, so it became an issue of moderation. Rob mentioned a friend who had two appetizers plus dinner and dessert, I'm sure everyone agrees that this is not moderation. For example when my wife and I go out, we split one dinner.

Respectfully I think people who come here for information, read statements and they get discouraged about taking classes and I think that's the exact wrong way to go about changing awareness. First even though there are no excuses (as evidenced by Retreathell) it discourages those that should be trying to improve their skill set who are self-conscious about their weight/condition. Second those same people will never learn how much their weight/condition really affects their fighting/shooting ability as many people learned at the Viking 1.5 class in April (even a lot of skinny guys). Third it creates a level of misguided self-satisfaction in those that might be in excellent shape, but don't think they need to spend the time/money/effort on going to a training class as evidenced by at least one contributor to this thread.

I'm sure we all talk about the need to prepare for whatever unlikely scenario we can envision, but I'd bet most of us do this because we enjoy it. It's a hobby, people spend lots of money on their hobbies and often feel the need to justify spending whatever they spend on it. Gunowners are perhaps more sensitive to this than others and while the fear of being victimized plays a role, they mostly do it for fun. I don't think there is anything wrong or unrealistic with that. Similarly, at least for me, shooting has made me very aware of what a hindrance weight can be while shooting and that can't be a bad thing either.

Relevant to the larger notion of health, the issue is that risk factors accumulate. To give an anecdotal example from my time in health care, I've drawn vials, separated and performed CBCs and other blood tests. I've seen some really skinny dudes, whose serum when separated looks like whole cream there is so much cholesterol in their blood. So again "fit" does not equal "health." Accordingly while most people who die of heart attacks at a young age are overweight, there are other factors that turned this "risk" into a "threat." Among them smoking and heredity probably are far greater risk factors that contribute to a larger threat that will need to be remediated by more aggressive means.

When talking about any number of serious health issues the concepts of "risk" and "threat" are, statistically speaking, two very different things. I don't have any hard statistical numbers (but I haven't seen anyone else produce any either) but I'd say that the risk of someone dying of a heart attack at 45 is negligible in comparison to being a victim of a crime. Similarly while many people who die from AMI undoubtedly were overweight, more significant hx for those people is genetics and other choices like smoking. As age increases and a lifetime of bad choices accumulate the risk increases to a threat, but usually much later in life is when it becomes a threat. Most people don't die of heart disease until well into their later years, but by that time I'd bet that most, if not all, of those people have been victimized by crime at least once in their lives. They might not be lethal encounters, but I'd also bet that most uses of a firearm don't rise to the level of lethality. In short one isn't being unrealistic to buy guns/ammo to compensate for physical shortcomings. Old people, women and even children have all used firearms against physically stronger, fitter assailants.

Saying that because you're fat you're just going to roll over and die because you don't have the "will" is honestly kind of misguided. If that were true, one could easily apply similar logic and say the same about an unwillingness to quit smoking or any number of bad habits and choices that people make every day indicate similar weak wills. I find that conclusion dubious. Being able to physically endure the fight is something else.

Ostensibly this thread started as a way of discussing survival fitness, or physical training in preparation for when you're going to have to rely on your body to get you through a bad situation that we all admit is statistically improbable. Subsequent to this it has turned to health and whether current lifestyle choices affect long-term health. I don't see anyone debating the truth of either fitness or health, but rendering judgments on whether a person can fight or not based on their weight and/or lifetstyle choices is to condition oneself to underestimate a potentially stronger opponent. In my intemperate youth I've made that mistake at least once.

C4IGrant
09-21-09, 09:39
But you're acting as if those murders are just randomly happening to any old person. I would bet that ain't so. Murders are typically domestics, gang-related, related to other crimes (one burglar killing another, etc.). This romanticized notion in the gun community of the random attack on a family of four while leaving the well-lit movie theater on a Saturday afternoon just doesn't happen the way that these guys make it out to. Can it happen? of course. Does it happen? perhaps. Is it anywhere near likely to happen? Not even remotely close.

Yet guys will spend literally tens of thousands of dollars a year on guns, gear, ammo, training etc. to "prepare" for that 1 in one million (and that's not an exaggeration) possibility that they may be attacked AND be in a position to use that training, but won't put a fork down and push back from the table (which is free, and takes zero time or other resources, BTW) to save themselves from a very, very real risk of attack by disease.

Since we do not have gangs and low drug problem, the murders are usually passion related.

With Ohio having one of the highest un-employment rates in the nation, my county is the highest (or one of) in all of Ohio. Break-ins are VERY common.

Just recently, in the next county over, the SO found 3 guys coming out of a house. Two went one way and the other took off in the vehicle. These guys did about everything they could to get away from the Deputies (to include dragging one from the vehicle).
So these guys are not just going to roll over when you catch them. They will fight till the end if need be.

The majority of the houses around me have been broken into. So is danger near? Yes. Are these guys willing to fight once they are in your home or you catch them? Yes.

As I said to another poster, some guys just don't care about how big they are or what they eat. They have no interest in watching what they consume. If they choose to live that way, then that is just fine.

Taking training classes and owning gear is typically their love or hobby. Its like telling Grandma to stop knitting sweaters because she lives in Florida! The odds of her needing a wool sweater in Florida is not really good, but that is what she likes to do.

If I wanted to get the word out that Men need to watch what they eat, exercise, get a physical and have their cholesterol checked, I wouldn't make fun of them for attending training classes or tell them that they will most likely never need to use a firearm in defense.
Simply advising them that if they continue on the course they are heading, they will most likely die before 55 and never see their kids grow up or get to know their grandchildren. This tends to be a VERY powerful motivator.



C4

sniperfrog
09-21-09, 22:03
I saw some posts on here refering to guys from the spec ops community that have put on a few pounds since retiring. I was in the Teams and we had some guys you could look at and say they were kinda "fat". But that same guy could run sub seven minute miles all day long, crank out 20+ pullups (no kipping) and carry 100 pounds of equipment up and down rough terrain as far as they had to. You can't always judge a book by its cover. Some guys I looked at and was amazed at how they could run as well as they did.

Submariner
09-23-09, 13:49
If I wanted to get the word out that Men need to watch what they eat, exercise, get a physical and have their cholesterol checked, I wouldn't make fun of them for attending training classes or tell them that they will most likely never need to use a firearm in defense.

It may not about getting the word out.;)

The last Navigator with whom I went to sea not only strove to be good but to make the other department heads look bad. He thought this made him look even better.

Perhaps there is need for a thread on how old, fat guys prepare for classes so they are not "That Guy." Young, skinny dudes won't be contributing (or commenting) as they have no experience at preparing for classes as old, fat guys.


Now that we've agreed on something... ;)

Here's the thing about this. Many of the posts on this site are from people sitting back and feeling all superior about themselves in comparison to members on other sites because they actually go out and train. and they "judge people that intend to own a firearm for protection and do NOT take training".

What is so different about similarly judging people that don't take their health or physical well-being seriously?

No difference at all. So by what authority do you judge?

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Gutshot John's sig line is on point:


The worst government is often the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression. - H.L. Mencken

C4IGrant
09-23-09, 14:34
It may not about getting the word out.;)

The last Navigator with whom I went to sea not only strove to be good but to make the other department heads look bad. He thought this made him look even better.

Perhaps there is need for a thread on how old, fat guys prepare for classes so they are not "That Guy." Young, skinny dudes won't be contributing (or commenting) as they have no experience at preparing for classes as old, fat guys.



No difference at all. So by what authority do you judge?

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Gutshot John's sig line is on point:

Most people do not get physical's & have no idea how unhealthy they are.

I have seen more poor "thin" shooters than I have "fat" ones.

Just sayin.


C4

Romeo Foxtrot
09-23-09, 14:51
I saw some posts on here refering to guys from the spec ops community that have put on a few pounds since retiring. I was in the Teams and we had some guys you could look at and say they were kinda "fat". But that same guy could run sub seven minute miles all day long, crank out 20+ pullups (no kipping) and carry 100 pounds of equipment up and down rough terrain as far as they had to. You can't always judge a book by its cover. Some guys I looked at and was amazed at how they could run as well as they did.


This I have seen before as well. but none of these guys were what i would consider "severely obese" some were/are a little heavy, but they're not fat bodies. even though they got some fat on em, they still look hard. and none were like some of these blobs of bulber ive seen floating around. most of the fat people i see in pics at these training classes arent older guys either, they look like dudes in their 30's, guys that have no excuse to be that fat.




I have seen more poor "thin" shooters than I have "fat" ones.

Just sayin.


C4

i dont dount this. i dont doubt for a second there are A LOT of fat guys out there that can outshoot my skinny ass. i actually know of a few that can.

Bill Bryant
09-23-09, 18:31
I have seen more poor "thin" shooters than I have "fat" ones. C4Ya gotta love what a solid, high-mass platform will do for your groups! :D

mskdgunman
09-25-09, 19:37
My cue to start getting back in shape was when I just got tired of being fat and out of shape. At 43 years old, 5'11" and pushing 270, I made the decision to change some things in how I live. I'm back in the gym usually 5 or 6 days a week and in my first month have lost 15 pounds, 3 inches (waist) and 3% of body fat. Not great, but results none the less and incentive to continue. While I'll never be skinny, I plan on at least being in some kind of shape. My goal is to be at 220 in six months. I've changed the way I eat, cut out most of my drinking and am just trying to stay focused. I do a little cardio each day and dedicate at least two days to just cardio. The cardio part is hard as I have asthma and bad ankles but I'm seeing improvement. I'll never like cardio but will do it as it is necessary.

I've shot some training courses which have left me realizing how badly out of shape I was but I was too lazy to make the lifestyle changes needed to improve my situation. I'm still a long way from my goal but am proud to have taken the first steps

I do try to allow myself one night a week to have wings and beer (or whatever) and so far it's been working in so far as to satisfy my cravings for all the stuff I love to eat. Moderation and self control are words I'm trying to live by.

In many ways, my old way of eating was/is an addiction. That was a shocking realization for me as I deal with addicts on a fairly regular basis and saw myself mimicking some of their actions (although with food instead of drugs) and going through many of the same cycles of trying and failing to beat the addiction. It was a humbling moment of self discovery to be sure.

I'm not sure if I added anything to the discussion other then a success story (in progress) from one of the fat guys on the line who is working towards a goal and looking for support on the fitness trail.

Iraq Ninja
09-26-09, 00:46
Anyone remember this ad and all the protests from the "fat ones" about it?

They are still out there, and they are still coming....

http://imgs.sfgate.com/examiner/pictures/1999/02/16/fat-ad.jpg

kennith13
09-28-09, 04:23
To my mind, survival fitness is being in good enough shape that the weight of both your body and gear are no impediment to you at all, no matter what you are doing, and in any environmental extreme that the human body was meant to withstand.

If you can do that while being fat, more power to you.

The mental side of things is even more important.

Mjolnir
10-11-09, 19:37
One thing being overlooked is what happens when you're shot or stabbed. Who do you think will have a better chance of survival?

Answer: The one in the best condition.

I'm not suggesting people do what I do or what Rob does but please do something.

kennith13
10-15-09, 03:14
One thing being overlooked is what happens when you're shot or stabbed. Who do you think will have a better chance of survival?

Answer: The one in the best condition.

I'm not suggesting people do what I do or what Rob does but please do something.

To an extent. Ancient gladiators and warriors of various types routinely packed on the pounds with special diets. It was accepted at the time that a layer of body fat helped to protect against damage. Now, the weaponry was different in that era, but the point remains somewhat. It is to be understood that they were quite fit under that layer of fat, however.

The key is to be in good physical condition for your weight, and for your endurance level to be high.

Alex F
10-15-09, 10:08
Lately I've been more into physical fitness than into firearms training.

It's cheaper to run than to shoot 500 rounds of .45...

:o

Barbara
10-31-09, 06:04
I think his point is that training for a threat that's statistically not that likely to happen is pointless if you fail to train for threats that are statistically almost guaranteed. Not many civilians get killed in gun fights (enough to train for the possibility, sure, but the percentage is low) but a good share of them are going to die prematurely of preventable diseases.

Still..being big is no guarantee of being in bad shape. I have a friend who is in her mid-40s, just finished a 1/2 marathon, regularly plays sports, works out, etc. She is probably outside of any government guidelines of what she should weigh, but so what? She's got a lot more strength and stamina than I do.

Part of training for anything needs to be in respectable physical condition. That's not to say that every person needs to be in marathon shape, or be able to bench press a Buick. It means eating healthily, getting some physical exercise on a regular basis, something that is not unreasonable for anyone.

texasrangers
10-31-09, 15:43
I think its very important that everyone does 30 minutes of cardio at least 3-4 days a week. If you are training to "survive" then the training should definitely be more intense than that. That being said, EVERYONE'S body is different. I have an absolutely terrible diet and until recently barely worked out at all, and I am still only 168 lbs. I have no doubt that there are "overweight" people who are in better physical shape than I am.

My grandpa was an alcoholic for well over 30 years. He smoked at least a pack a day since he was 18 when he arrived on Omaha Beach on D+2 ( he was an engineer and was assigned grave registration duty, so even though I don't agree with his lifestyle choices as it made for an incredibly difficult childhood for my dad, I do understand it). And he lived to be 85 and was able to every day normal activities up until the last 14 days of his life. If he hadnt of lived the lifestyle he did, I have no doubt he could have made 100. Likewise, there are many, many people who have lived that same lifestyle and not made it past 60. Everyone is different.