View Full Version : Poland, screwed again.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-17-09, 07:31
I hate copying things from the front page of Drudge, but what kind of WTF is he thinking?
If this is how he rolls, what kind of deal is he going to cock-up with the N. Koreans?
I really thought he was going to keep this, and maybe, hopefully there are alternative technologies that will actually work in its place (how is that 747 laser running?)
"O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"
Maybe Iran can't reach us, but those crazy MFs must be scratching their beards thinking it is an trick. "The let us have the bomb, and an easy means to use it? Obama is on our side!"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_re_eu/eu_eastern_europe_missile_defense
By KAREL JANICEK and WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press Writers Karel Janicek And William J. Kole, Associated Press Writers – 40 mins ago
PRAGUE – President Barack Obama has decided to scrap plans for a U.S. missile defense shield in the Czech Republic and Poland that had deeply angered Russia, the Czech prime minister confirmed Thursday.
NATO's new chief hailed the move as "a positive step" and a Russian analyst said Obama's decision will increase the chances that Russia will cooperate more closely with the United States in the dispute over Iran's nuclear program.
Premier Jan Fischer told reporters that Obama phoned him overnight to say that "his government is pulling out of plans to build a missile defense radar on Czech territory."
"The same happened with Poland. Poland was informed in the same way about this intention," Fischer said.
He said Obama assured him that the "strategic cooperation" between the Czech Republic and the U.S. would continue, and that Washington considers the Czechs among its closest allies.
In Poland, officials declined to confirm Fischer's remarks, saying they were waiting for a formal announcement from Washington.
The plan, proposed by the Bush administration, aimed to defend the United States and its European allies against a possible missile attack from Iran or elsewhere in the Middle East. In all, 10 interceptor rockets were to have been stationed in Poland and a radar system based in the Czech Republic.
But Russia was livid over the prospect of having U.S. interceptor rockets in countries so close to its territory, and the Obama administration has sought to improve strained ties with the Kremlin.
"The U.S. president's decision is a well-thought (out) and systematic one," said Konstantin Kosachev, head of the foreign affairs committee in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian parliament. "It reflects understanding that any security measure can't be built entirely on the basis of one nation."
"Now we can talk about restoration of (the) strategic partnership between Russia and the United States," Kosachev added.
Alexei Arbatov, head of the Russian Academy of Science's Center for International Security, told a Moscow radio station on Thursday that the U.S. was giving in on missile defense to get more cooperation from Russia on Iran.
"The United States is reckoning that by rejecting the missile-defense system or putting it off to the far future, Russia will be inclined together with the United States to take a harder line on sanctions against Iran," he said.
Czechs and Poles, along with some other Eastern Europeans, have complained of what many perceive as neglect by the Obama administration.
That, in turn, has prompted a U.S. diplomatic effort to reassure the countries that America — which helped liberate them from decades of communist-era isolation and helped bring them into NATO — still values them as friends and partners.
Fischer said after a review of the missile defense system, the U.S. now considers the threat of an attack using short- and mid-range missiles greater than one using long-range rockets.
"That's what the Americans assessed as the most serious threat," and Obama's decision was based on that, he said.
Obama took office undecided about the European system and said he would study it. His administration never sounded enthusiastic about it, and European allies have been preparing for an announcement that the White House would not complete the shield as designed.
Obama himself had hinted that the U.S. was rethinking the plan. In a major foreign policy speech in April in Prague, he said Washington would proceed with developing the system as long as Iran posed a threat to U.S. and European security.
But a top military leader, Marine Gen. James Cartwright, recently suggested that the U.S. may have underestimated how long it would take Iran to develop long-range missiles.
The Czech government had stood behind the planned radar system despite fierce opposition from the public, which staged numerous protests.
Critics feared the Czech Republic would be targeted by terrorists if it agreed to host the radar system, which was planned for the Brdy military installation 90 kilometers (55 miles) southwest of Prague, the capital.
In Washington, Defense Secretary Robert Gates scheduled a news conference Thursday with Cartwright, the point man on the technical challenge of arraying missiles and interceptors to defend against long-range missiles.
The decision to scrap the plan will have future consequences for U.S. relations with eastern Europe.
"If the administration approaches us in the future with any request, I would be strongly against it," said Jan Vidim, a lawmaker with Czech Republic's conservative Civic Democratic Party, which supported the missile defense plan.
"'Now we can talk about restoration of (the) strategic partnership between Russia and the United States,' Kosachev added."
Russia is not our friend, when are these jackasses going to realize this?
I believe the thought behind this is the following:
"We know appeasement has never worked in the past, but that's because we've never been the ones doing it. We can make it work!"
Yes we can,
:eek: oops, paused too long in the koolaid aisle.
I am on the fence here. We can't afford the expense and it may not have worked anyway. This project would not have helped us here in the USA so if Europe wants it let them pay for it.
littleshoe
09-17-09, 10:09
I thought the timing on this was quite interesting given today is the 70th Annv. of the Soviet Union Invading Poland. Im not sure what it is about this adminstration but it appears to have a knack for making stuff happen at the wrong time.
The Pols should put the blame on the 53% of Americans who voted for Obama.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-17-09, 11:54
I guess you could look at this positively and say that Obama sees no need for the shield since he is going to takeout Iran's nuke infrastructure, but I don't think so.
Kind of like the tru lie that illegals won't get health care. He may be right, he is just going to make them all citizens.
I see it as a tragedy. Both Czech Republic and Poland have been some of our best allies , and to simply throw them away like this is truly sad. More than that though, this destroys any credibility and support that we might have abroad that we will stand by our allies. If ever we ask any country to support us and we claim that we will help them for their risk why should they believe us, in a term or 2 that might very well change.
What is he thinking? He's thinking, like all politicians, "campaign contributions!"
Obama helps strengthen General Electric-Putin ties (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-helps-strengthen-General-Electric-Putin-ties-59644627.html)
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-17-09, 22:15
Mjolnir- Thanks for proving that a membership at M4C and a some bad links to Amazon don't prepare you for the real world. Give up on Georgia when China stops playing with Cuba for oil 90 miles off our shore and Russia takes the missile boats out of the mid Atlantic. Ring the gong for the Japanesse so that they can wrap up some nukes before you pull out of Asia. Where exactly is your new velvet curtain that we allow the Chinese and Russians to have carte blanche power? How many souls are you damning for another generation after their shackles where thrown off in Eastern Europe.
Get ready for Pope JPII to Saint-Slap your silly ass if you make it past St. Peter.
Gutshot John
09-17-09, 22:59
By all means, dissolve NATO, get all the members together and have a vote for dissolution...if they will. However that's not what's happening the Obama administration is caving and even the Russians know it.
This is pissing on a strategic agreement of an ACTIVE partnership and demonstrates venality. Doing so because you're being threatened by the very state that inspired the creation of NATO is cowardice and will not be forgotten.
I'm sure we all know where you stand Mjolnir.
Gutshot John
09-17-09, 23:39
Yep, well like I said, I know where you stand.
I dont like the Poland/Czech Rep. aspect of this at all, however, Savage had an interesting theory on this whole deal today....
He said he thinks this may all be part of a bigger 3-way deal between Russia, Israel, and the U.S.
Israeli PM Netanyahu took a "secret" trip to visit Putin last week in Russia, now this?
Savage thinks that Russia may have given Israel the green light to strike Iran, and that BHO may have been contacted to pull the plug on the European missle shield as the trade-off to make the deal happen....
If this does end-up being fact, it is a horseshit deal for Poland & the Czech Rep., but not too shabby for Israel & the U.S.A.
variablebinary
09-18-09, 01:23
No missile shield is going to stop the Russians from rolling into Poland. If Moscow wants eastern Europe, they are going to take it, and there isn't shit the USA can do about it. It's up to the Eastern Europeans to keep the Russians in check. Not our missile shield
Bush was a retard, and didn't know how to pick his battles. We have nothing to gain by using our literal money and political currency for pissing off Russians.
There are much better ways to dealing with ICBM threats from Iran and N Korea.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-09, 01:24
Yep, well like I said, I know where you stand.
Can you send me a Reader's Digest version of what Mjolnir believes, since it seems his main arguement is his bibliography. I hope he is cut&pasting this from some other forum or else Mjolnir's high school typing teacher deserves some real kudos.
The crux of Mjolnir's position, as far as I can tell, is that if only we leave China and Russia alone in their spheres, we can have world peace. I guess he thinks we are responsible for WWII since we tried to restrict Japanesse hegemony in Asia.
I also don't like Mjolnir's point that we have put troop bases along key oil routes, since many of these bases are actually in response to 9/11-GWOT. It doesn't take a tin hat to make the connection that the terrorist attacks where a false-flag operation so that we could legitimize and provide cover for these moves. Strait of Malacca are a bit different since Japan and Korea's oil also goes thru there, not just China's.
CarlosDJackal
09-18-09, 08:40
You know when the Russians are happy, it's a sure sign that we are heading down the wrong road!! :rolleyes:
From: The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/17/AR2009091704290.html)
A Cautious Russia Praises Obama Move
Reaction Mixed in Poland, Czech Republic
By Philip P. Pan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, September 18, 2009
HELSINKI, Sept. 17 -- Russia expressed cautious approval of President Obama's decision Thursday to overhaul U.S. missile defense. But reaction was mixed in Poland and the Czech Republic, where some voiced relief and others anger that a contentious proposal to base the shield in their countries had been scrapped.
The Kremlin, which had condemned the original plan as a threat to national security, welcomed the U.S. announcement and said it was waiting for details. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the move created "good conditions" for working with the United States on joint defenses and praised Obama's "responsible attitude."
"Naturally, we will have to conduct substantial, expert consultations, and of course, our country is ready for this," Medvedev said. "We will work together to develop effective measures against the risks of missile proliferation, measures that take into account the interests and concerns of all sides and ensure equal security for all countries in European territory."
But Maj. Gen. Vladimir Dvorkin, former chief of the Russian military's main research institute for nuclear strategy, cautioned that the reconfigured U.S. system could still pose a threat to Russia. "Everything depends on the scale of such a system," he told the Interfax news agency. "If it comprises a multitude of facilities, including a space echelon, it may threaten the Russian potential of nuclear deterrence."
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Russian officials have said a U.S. shield based on the smaller, slower interceptors of the Navy's sea-based Aegis system would not threaten Russian forces. But the Obama plan envisions using more-advanced versions of those missiles, some based on land, and a high-resolution radar similar to the one originally proposed for the Czech Republic, perhaps in the Caucasus. Russian military officials have said they might have concerns depending on where the new missiles and radar are deployed and on their capabilities.
The immediate reaction among Russian politicians, though, was delight, with several lawmakers hailing the American reversal as a triumph for the Kremlin's firm opposition to the missile shield and a sign of Obama's commitment to strengthening ties with Moscow.
"First of all, it is a victory for common sense," Mikhail Margelov, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the upper house of parliament, said in a phone interview. "We perceive this as another positive signal suggesting that in the current administration in Washington, pragmatism prevails over an ideological approach to foreign policy."
Konstantin Kosachyov, his counterpart in the lower house, said the move confirmed that Russia had been right all along in arguing that the United States had exaggerated assessments of Iran's intercontinental missile program in promoting the system. "Finally, the Americans have agreed with us," he said.
Russian officials said no deal had been struck with the United States for the policy shift and warned that Washington would be disappointed if it expected the Kremlin to put more pressure on Iran in return. "The Americans have simply corrected their own mistake," said Dmitry Rogozin, the Russian ambassador to NATO. "And we are not duty-bound to pay someone for putting their own mistakes right."
In Warsaw, the Polish government played down the decision to abandon plans to base 10 high-speed interceptors in the country and emphasized that the Obama administration had asked Poland to host some of the SM-3 missiles in the reconfigured shield. Officials said Washington also pledged to follow through on plans to deploy surface-to-air Patriot missiles in the country despite Russian objections.
"There is a chance for strengthening Europe's security with special attention given to Poland," Prime Minister Donald Tusk told reporters. "I would not describe what is going on today as a defeat for Poland."
But other politicians who had fought for the original plan, despite public opposition, expressed dismay at the American about-face, and the announcement appeared to catch many senior officials by surprise.
"If this is confirmed, it would mean failure in the United States' long-term mentality for this part of Europe," Aleksander Szczyglo, security adviser to President Lech Kaczynski, said on Polish television.
Former president Lech Walesa, who led the Solidarity movement that challenged Communist rule, had stronger words: "The Americans have always tended to their interests only and have taken advantage of everyone else."
Lukasz Kulesa of the Polish Institute of International Affairs said Obama has left Eastern Europe with a muddled view of his attitude toward the region. "There is an impression held by some people that this administration puts less importance on this part of Europe and favors relations with Russia," he said.
In Prague, former Czech prime minister Mirek Topolanek, whose government collapsed after agreeing to host the U.S. radar despite polls showing the public opposed it by a ratio of 2 to 1, blasted Obama's move as "really bad news for the Czech Republic and also a big part of Europe."
But Jan Hamacek, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the Czech Parliament, said he welcomed a U.S. plan that focused on the more imminent threat posed by short- and medium-range missiles in Iran.
"The right has tried to make this a political issue," said Hamacek, a Social Democrat. "Our relations are excellent with the United States and our allies . . . and I don't see the need for a special relationship."
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Special correspondents Anna Masterova in Moscow, Bruce Konviser in Prague and Shannon Smiley in Berlin contributed to this report.
You know when the Russians are happy, it's a sure sign that we are heading down the wrong road!! :rolleyes:
+100
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On a related note, I read an analysis on Iraq several years ago that basically said that if the streets of Europe are protesting US action somewhere, the US was probably doing the right thing!
The_War_Wagon
09-18-09, 09:08
I believe the thought behind this is the following:
"We know appeasement has never worked in the past, but that's because we've never been the ones doing it. We can make it work!"
Bingo!
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/G.O.D._Michelle.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-09, 10:05
I guess you could look at this positively and say that Obama sees no need for the shield since he is going to takeout Iran's nuke infrastructure, but I don't think so.
Kind of like the tru lie that illegals won't get health care. He may be right, he is just going to make them all citizens.
Crap, looks like BHO is reading my posts ;)
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1
"President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage. "
Gutshot John
09-18-09, 10:50
Can you send me a Reader's Digest version of what Mjolnir believes, since it seems his main arguement is his bibliography. I hope he is cut&pasting this from some other forum or else Mjolnir's high school typing teacher deserves some real kudos.
I have no idea what he believes...other than anything and everything he reads. The reader's digest version is "if someone printed it and claims some sort of American conspiracy than it must be true."
My high school teacher called it "lack of critical thinking skills".
I have no idea what he believes...other than anything and everything he reads. The reader's digest version is "if someone printed it and claims some sort of American conspiracy than it must be true."
My high school teacher called it "lack of critical thinking skills".
The reason neither of you know what I believe because you do not read. Newsflash: there's not a dime's worth of difference between the man who cannot read and the man who doesn't.
If neither of you are familiar with what I've posted then neither of you should comment about geopolitics; much less Eurasia.
I think your teacher may have been speaking about how you'd turn out with respect to this topic.
It is well documented that Russia had long prepared to go in and had materiel stockpiled waiting for an excuse.
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First the capitulation in Iraq, the incessant bowing to NK and Iran, and now this. No one will believe the US in the future nor stick their necks out to support us as all we will do is give them the shaft.
WHERE is this documentation? We *know* that the US, Israel, the Ukraine, Germany (and probably other NATO nations) were stockpiling weapons. We know because the arms caches were found and well as documentation providing plans for a much wider conflict if Sackashitsvili was successful. He wasn't, thank God.
Nations should be wiser in their choosing of sides. The promises of "wealth" won't keep Russia or China from either responding to military provocation or in a worst case scenario from being targeted and hit with missiles. Poland and the Czech Republic gov'ts were stupid as are the present gov'ts in the Ukraine and Armenia. We "cannot do shit" in that region of the world. Why do I speak in exaggeration for a point? Because Russia is a REGIONAL POWER and she's matched only by CHINA in that region of the world.
For those who have a Biblical bent you may wish to do a bit of research on Gog and Magog in those "end times 'revelations'." Most won't; I know it. Besides, it's a good college football weekend... :rolleyes:
RogerinTPA
09-18-09, 18:11
I dont like the Poland/Czech Rep. aspect of this at all,
May I ask why?
Poland, especially after their "Solidarnos"stand and movement, against the USSR to separate in the early 80's, has been, by and large, pro western and pro US. The Czechs have always been mostly pro US/Western even while being under communist influence, and even more so after the fall of the "Wall" and the Soviet Union, especially when they found out the Russians rewrote Czech history in claiming that they liberated them after WWII, when it was us (The United States) that did the actual liberating. We signed over CZ as a concession to the Russians, as was East Germany, when dividing up Germany's occupied countries, in order to appease the Russians. They (the Russia) are, by and large, much hated by Czechs today. IMHO, they both got the shaft and disregarded by POTUS. The worst part of this whole shitty deal is that POTUS gave the missile defense deal away, not as a concession, but as a gift. We got nothing in return but a promise to discuss certain future options on defense in that region.:rolleyes: What a fine way to treat relatively new members of NATO.
however, Savage had an interesting theory on this whole deal today....
He said he thinks this may all be part of a bigger 3-way deal between Russia, Israel, and the U.S.
Israeli PM Netanyahu took a "secret" trip to visit Putin last week in Russia, now this?
Savage thinks that Russia may have given Israel the green light to strike Iran, and that BHO may have been contacted to pull the plug on the European missle shield as the trade-off to make the deal happen....
If this does end-up being fact, it is a horseshit deal for Poland & the Czech Rep., but not too shabby for Israel & the U.S.A.
Interesting theory, and may be plausible if it weren't for the spineless leadership in this country. It will provide political cover and plausible deniability to POTUS, if the IDF decides to strikes Iran. But that in my mind, is truly, wishful thinking.
WHERE is this documentation? We *know* that the US, Israel, the Ukraine, Germany (and probably other NATO nations) were stockpiling weapons. We know because the arms caches were found and well as documentation providing plans for a much wider conflict if Sackashitsvili was successful. He wasn't, thank God.
As an example:
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/pp081608.shtml
many others are out there. I had read several others and this was a new one but they all had the same message.
Where is YOUR documentation about arms caches that were not Georgian military arms provided by the west (like the "infamous" Bushmaster rifles pics) for the modernization of the Georgian military?
It is hard enough to get NATO and Germany to do anything reasonable to believe that they had hidden arms caches waiting for a wider conflict.
RogerinTPA
09-18-09, 18:44
I find it a GOOD thing that a decision to stop the encroachment on both Russia and China's borders.
I respectfully disagree. The Russians have not been defanged. The oil being produced in Siberia (Read money) has fueled Putin's dream of rearming and modernizing the Russian military, specifically to counter the U.S. Putin is an old school communist, and wants to counter the US at every move. He would be very content and quite pleased to get a new cold war on with us. I consider missile defense in Poland and CZ, strategic containment of a potential and future enemy.
The early warning radar and missiles are NOT what they were claimed to be: if they were intended to stop incoming missiles from "rogue states" (no "rogue state" would detonate A MISSILE THAT CAN AND WOULD BE TRACKED BY NUMEROUS NATIONS - AND DULY RESPONDED TO IN LIKE FASHION...) like the one's mentioned by the last Administration then they'd be placed in the Middle East, no?
What's your source and reference for this information?
Though our very own "neighborhood geopolitician" :rolleyes: is hopelessly clueless or extremely disingenous the foreign policy of the US is confrontation with both Russia and China for existing and planned oil and natural gas pipeline routes in Eurasia.
Both countries (Russia and China) are using newly found resources and brand new gains in capitalism, to fund and re-arm their military to counter a perceived threat to their countries by the U.S. Even the majority of oil produced in the Middle East, is not flowing west, it's flowing east to India and China to fund their growing (exploding) economies. We can't begin to counter that with our current economy thanks to the massive waste in spending (Stimulus Package, Cap and Trade, turning the U.S. into a massive welfare state, forced national health care, illegal alien amnesty, extreme passive weak leadership, POTUS with hidden agenda for transformation, etc.... We have taken our selves out of play with all this BS and fighting two wars.
We had every opportunity to engage Russia as a partner after it fell. Instead we went in for the kill. Putin reversed much and was villified. It was all explained by Brzezinski - the brain behind our war-by-proxy with the USSR in Afghanistan - in his book that I keep mentioning that no one bothers to read. After the constant encroachments in Eurasia, annexing nations into a MILITARY ORGANIZATION, the unlawful wars in "Yugoslavia" and NATO essentially annexing Kosovo followed up by the war in Georgia with plans to engage Armenia to take back Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan as well as a terrorist campain in the Ukraine. Yes, I think the Cold War has NEVER been abandoned by the monsters who run the US.
Politically, Russia is effective in the EU and in Eurasia because of the natural resources it sits on (and we are trying to wrest away) and the Nuclear Arsenal she possesses. I don't see Russia engaging in a low intensty warfare campaign and faring well. They lack the population (180 million) and the money. Their influence politically is regional - EU and Eurasia with some in the Middle East. That leaves it's sizeable nuclear arsenal to deal with. And no one can.
Our Foreign Policy has been very aggressive. Had we engaged Russia as an equal we'd have 2/3 of the world's nuclear missiles 2/3 of the world's top scientists, unlimited oil and natural gas reserves between us. Potentially, true peace.
But the Neocons won back in 1989 and the rest is history.
And don't forget China with it's numerically apocalyptic army and nuclear weaponry as well. An organized and focused Gog and Magog beats all the rest of us... something that even Brzezinski warned about. But it was not heeded by the last administration, either.
Honestly the crux of my point is that we should stand behind those we call allies and not abandon them with every administration change. I am not trying to make the point that this was the big block against Russia, I don't even have faith that the system would even work. I think that there are different and more effective ways to deal with many of the topics in this thread. But if you screw people or countries over that are supposed to be allies enough times, then no one will believe you or care because if they just wait 4 or 8 years it will all change. It is behavior like this that has made our human intelligence assets much harder to develop these days, and why with Obama going after our own people on this witch hunt for torturers that our own people will be less willing to go the extra mile that is sometimes needed.
Is an Oil Pipeline Behind the War in Afghanistan?
by Bill Sardi
Testimony before the US Congress is circulating on the internet. It pertains to a proposed oil pipeline through Central Asia that is applicable to the current war in Afghanistan.
On February 12, 1998, John J. Maresca, Vice President, International Relations for UNOCAL oil company, testified before the US House of Representatives, Committee on International Relations. Maresca provided information to Congress on Central Asia oil and gas reserves and how they might shape US foreign policy. UNOCAL's problem? As Maresca said: "How to get the region's vast energy resources to the markets." The oil reserves are in areas north of Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia. Routes for a pipeline were proposed that would transport oil on a 42-inch pipe southward thru Afghanistan for 1040 miles to the Pakistan coast. Such a pipeline would cost about $2.5 billion and carry about 1 million barrels of oil per day.
Maresca told Congress then that: "It's not going to be built until there is a single Afghan government. That's the simple answer."
Dana Rohrbacher, California congressman, then identified the Taliban as the ruling controllers among various factions in Afghanistan and characterized them as "opium producers."
Then Rohrbacher asked Maresca: "There is a Saudi terrorist who is infamous for financing terrorism around the world. Is he in the Taliban area or is he up there with the northern people?"
Maresca answered: "If it is the person I am thinking of, he is there in the Taliban area." This testimony obviously alluded to Osama bin Laden.
Then Rorhbacher asked: "... in the northern area as compared to the place where the Taliban are in control, would you say that one has a better human rights record toward women than the other?"
Maresca responded by saying: "With respect to women, yes. But I don't think either faction here has a very clean human rights record, to tell you the truth."
So women's rights were introduced into Congressional testimony by Congressman Rohrbacher as the wedge for UNOCAL to build its pipeline through Afghanistan. Three years later CNN would be airing its acclaimed TV documentary "Under The Veil," which displayed the oppressive conditions that women endure in Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban (a propaganda film for the oil pipeline?).
Rohrbacher then went on to say that a democratic election should take place in Afghanistan and "if the Taliban are not willing to make that kind of commitment, I would be very hesitant to move foreward on a $2.5 billion investment because without that commitment, I don't think there is going to be any tranquility in that land."
Beginning in 1998 UNOCAL was chastized, particularly by women's rights groups, for discussions with the Taliban, and headed in retreat as a worldwide effort mounted to come to the defense of the Afghani women. This forced UNOCAL to withdraw from its talks with the Taliban and dissolve its multinational partnership in that region. In 1999 Alexander's Gas & Oil Connections newsletter said: "UNOCAL company officials said late last year (1998) they were abandoning the project because of the need to cut costs in the Caspian region and because of the repeated failure of efforts to resolve the long civil conflict in Afghanistan." [Volume 4, issue #20 - Monday, November 22, 1999]
Three days following the attack on the World Trade Centers in New York City, UNOCAL issued a statement reconfirming it had withdrawn from its project in Afghanistan, long before recent events. [www.unocal.com September 14, 2001 statement]
UNOCAL was not the only party positioning themselves to tap into oil and gas reserves in central Asia. UNOCAL was primary member of a multinational consortium called CentGas (Central Asia Gas) along with Delta Oil Company Limited (Saudi Arabia), the Government of Turkmenistan, Indonesia Petroleum, LTD. (INPEX) (Japan), ITOCHU Oil Exploration Co., Ltd. (Japan), Hyundai Engineering & Construction Co., Ltd. (Korea), the Crescent Group (Pakistan) and RAO Gazprom (Russia).
Just because CentGas had dissolved does not mean that the involved parties have totally abandoned their interest in building an oil pipeline out of Central Asia. There is also talk of another pipeline thru Iran. India and Pakistan are bidding to be the pipeline terminal ocean port since they would obtain hundreds of millions of dollars in fees.
So, in 1998 Osama bin Laden was identified as the villain behind the Taliban, Afghanistani women the victims of an oppressive Taliban regime, and the stage was set for a future stabilization effort (i.e. a war). Was all this a cover story for a future oil pipeline?
In November 2000, Bruce Hoffman, director of the Rand Institute office in Washington DC, indicated that the next US President would have to face up to the growing threat is Islamic terrorism. Hoffman: "The next administration must turn its immediate attention to knitting together the full range of US counterterrorist capabilities into a cohesive plan." [Los Angeles Times, November 12, 2000]
All that was needed was a triggering event.
I have read this before. I have even seen where someone tracked down many people who have financed plans for such a pipeline. Among many names Al Gore was one of them. I don't know how true it was, but I did read it from two or three different places.
Both countries (Russia and China) are using newly found resources and brand new gains in capitalism, to fund and re-arm their military to counter a perceived threat to their countries by the U.S. Even the majority of oil produced in the Middle East, is not flowing west, it's flowing east to India and China to fund their growing (exploding) economies. We can't begin to counter that with our current economy thanks to the massive waste in spending (Stimulus Package, Cap and Trade, turning the U.S. into a massive welfare state, forced national health care, illegal alien amnesty, extreme passive weak leadership, POTUS with hidden agenda for transformation, etc.... We have taken our selves out of play with all this BS and fighting two wars.
Well said, but one has to wonder what end result is it that POTUS wants and why.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-18-09, 21:21
I'll ignore all of Mjolnir's personal comments about my reading habits.
Mjolnir
All that was needed was a triggering event.
I just want to get this straight, since you seem unwilling to just come out and say it. The information above implies that you think that 9/11 was done to start a war in Afghanistan to run an oil pipeline? Yes or no, do you believe that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-18-09, 22:01
Abandoning the East Europeans will do more damage to our reputation than the mistakes of the last 5 Presidents put together. NO ONE is going to trust us now. This was a flat-out betrayal by us. Obama, for the first time in my life, briefly, made me ashamed of my country. I cannot wait to vote against man again.
Abandoning the East Europeans will do more damage to our reputation than the mistakes of the last 5 Presidents put together. NO ONE is going to trust us now. This was a flat-out betrayal by us. Obama, for the first time in my life, briefly, made me ashamed of my country. I cannot wait to vote against man again.
This has been my point all along.
RogerinTPA
09-18-09, 22:26
Well said, but one has to wonder what end result is it that POTUS wants and why.
The goal is to tax the hell out of anyone making 200K+ to fund the liberal agenda: Redistribution of wealth and to turn our traditional capitalist /free market system, into a pure socialist society, without a shot being fired. Already a tax on the lower and middle classes are being introduced: Cigarettes, fat tax, and I'm pretty sure that their 200K mark will be lowered more, as power is gained, even when he said he wouldn't do so "directly". A totalitarian state, control of everything we do. Kinda reminds me of that movie V for Vendetta.
What bother's me the most is the Messiah's idea of creating a domestic civilian paramilitary force, that is the equal of the regular armed forces. They of course, will have extraordinary arrest powers. For what ****ing purpose? To suppress free speech of course. Want proof? Look how they (The Liberal politicians) reacted to the town hall meetings, the march on DC, reactions to Glenn Beck, Oreilly, and other conservative and independents covering the administration. ACORN, the commie Van Jones, and the leaked DHS Classified Memo that identified potential radicals, and then retracted, was especially a nice touch. Guess what? We all fit in those definitions on the DHS report as radicals. What are the other mainstream media covering? Nothing that even comes close to Fox News. They have turned a blind eye to everything potentially harmful to this administration and it's agenda of "transformation". All the radicals as Czars to bypass Congressional oversight, special interest groups writing bills that congress is supposed to being doing, bills that are introduced and passed that are never read by the very senators that are supposed to be representing us, "We the People".
If and when a civilian paramilitary force is established, any number of scenarios may begin to take shape: anyone who goes against him, belongs to gun forums, or are otherwise considered a "Radical", will start to "disappear" in the middle of the night. Special political prisons/detention/re-education camps to get your "mind right", etc. It will be a cross between a SciFi Flick/Nazi Germany and Stalin's era. It may very well evolve into a civil war.
What can we do? Have Beck or some other folks, create a list of politicians who have proven records that show they have ignored their constituents and Vote the ****ers out of office A.S.A.P.
I had a post in here somewhere. Now it's gone. Did I miss something? If I posted with a quote to a now-deleted post from another member, does my post disappear?
Smuckatelli
09-18-09, 23:04
The Czechs have always been mostly pro US/Western even while being under communist influence, and even more so after the fall of the "Wall" and the Soviet Union, especially when they found out the Russians rewrote Czech history in claiming that they liberated them after WWII, when it was us (The United States) that did the actual liberating.
Throughout the Cold War the Czech knew how far we went, we didn't make it to Prague but we liberated most of Bohemia. The line pretty much ran from Karlovy Vary - Plzen - Ceska Budejovice.
The history was re-written after the Prague Spring in 68. The parents of the children going to school in the 70-80s did teach the children the real history that wasn't taught in school.
The US left Poland & the Czech Republic hanging by appeasing the Russians this week.:mad:
The goal is to tax the hell out of anyone making 200K+ to fund the liberal agenda: Redistribution of wealth and to turn our traditional capitalist /free market system, into a pure socialist society, without a shot being fired. Already a tax on the lower and middle classes are being introduced: Cigarettes, fat tax, and I'm pretty sure that their 200K mark will be lowered more, as power is gained, even when he said he wouldn't do so "directly". A totalitarian state, control of everything we do. Kinda reminds me of that movie V for Vendetta.
What bother's me the most is the Messiah's idea of creating a domestic civilian paramilitary force, that is the equal of the regular armed forces. They of course, will have extraordinary arrest powers. For what ****ing purpose? To suppress free speech of course. Want proof? Look how they (The Liberal politicians) reacted to the town hall meetings, the march on DC, reactions to Glenn Beck, Oreilly, and other conservative and independents covering the administration. ACORN, the commie Van Jones, and the leaked DHS Classified Memo that identified potential radicals, and then retracted, was especially a nice touch. Guess what? We all fit in those definitions on the DHS report as radicals. What are the other mainstream media covering? Nothing that even comes close to Fox News. They have turned a blind eye to everything potentially harmful to this administration and it's agenda of "transformation". All the radicals as Czars to bypass Congressional oversight, special interest groups writing bills that congress is supposed to being doing, bills that are introduced and passed that are never read by the very senators that are supposed to be representing us, "We the People".
If and when a civilian paramilitary force is established, any number of scenarios may begin to take shape: anyone who goes against him, belongs to gun forums, or are otherwise considered a "Radical", will start to "disappear" in the middle of the night. Special political prisons/detention/re-education camps to get your "mind right", etc. It will be a cross between a SciFi Flick/Nazi Germany and Stalin's era. It may very well evolve into a civil war.
What can we do? Have Beck or some other folks, create a list of politicians who have proven records that show they have ignored their constituents and Vote the ****ers out of office A.S.A.P. I agree, you are not telling me anything new
IMO (and I hate to agree with anything the Obamunist does) the Czech/Poland missile defense is a meaningless gesture and a waste of money anyway.
Does anyone seriously think that Russia is going to nuke Poland?
We waste too many tax dollars as it is, spending US money on a pointless missile shield for Eastern Europe is just stupid.
Smuckatelli
09-19-09, 07:39
We waste too many tax dollars as it is, spending US money on a pointless missile shield for Eastern Europe is just stupid.
I understand your thoughts on this, I do agree that we are wasting too many tax dollars but I disagree when it applies to the missile shield. Eventually the rogue states will get ICBMs, the shield was never designed to stop an all out attack from Russia, just a couple missiles......
IMO, those missiles could have offered protection from missiles coming Iran over the pole to us.
I can't see a scenario where someone is going to break into our house but I still want to be able to protect life, limb, and property if it ever comes to that.
RogerinTPA
09-19-09, 09:34
Anyone notice that after POTUS decided not to put in a missile defense for Poland and Czech republic, Turkey announced the same day, that they have put out an open bid for a missile defense system, open to all bidders?
Outlander Systems
09-19-09, 17:09
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/washington/03prexy.html?_r=2
:rolleyes:
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