View Full Version : Brownell's new staking tool
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=29337/Product/AR_15_M16_CARRIER_KEY_STAKING_TOOL?mc_ID=4029
Any thoughts on this tool from Brownell's?
This is awfully similar to Ned's tool. I can only hope that Brownells did the right thing and paid for the rights to market his idea:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=29337/Product/AR_15_M16_CARRIER_KEY_STAKING_TOOL?mc_ID=4029
Thomas M-4
09-18-09, 12:47
A thread has been already started . https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38047
Yeah, it looks like a ripoff of the MOACKS, made and sold by one of our own forum members, Ned Christiansen.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
It was only a matter of time until someone made their own based on the concept.
Price looks good though.. $50 with trade discount.
Unless Ned made it, I am sticking to Ned's.
RogerinTPA
09-18-09, 15:55
Yeah, it looks like a ripoff of the MOACKS, made and sold by one of our own forum members, Ned Christiansen.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
I thought it looked familiar. I wonder if it's a patent violation.
I thought it looked familiar. I wonder if it's a patent violation.
If the MOACKS is patented then possibly it is.
I just tried searching for grins. I can't find anything on staking tools. Maybe I'm not using the right key words.
http://patft.uspto.gov/
A couple bucks, and about 5 minutes of work. Hammer not included. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/StakingTool.jpg
A couple bucks, and about 5 minutes of work. Hammer not included. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/StakingTool.jpg
I have seen the results of your tool in action, but as for me Ned's tool is superior.;)
I have seen the results of your tool in action, but as for me Ned's tool is superior.;)
Superior? Or more complex in design? Often times the simplest methods provide the best results. :) ;)
Superior? Or more complex in design? Often times the simplest methods provide the best results. :) ;)
I think he meant that his skills are lacking compared to yours? I could be wrong.
I am OK with a punch/chisel, but I might not do as well as others. ;)
A variety of methods do an adequate job. Ned's tool makes it specifically repeatable.
Unfortunately, it looks like someone copied Ned's intellectual property. That's what this thread is about, the new knock-off tool being sold by Brownells.
$10, no hammer required
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/14/l_a9ec654fc7114e44a38eff20c11fa28f.jpg
I think he meant that his skills are lacking compared to yours? I could be wrong.
I am OK with a punch/chisel, but I might not do as well as others. ;)
I guess if a guy can’t aim and swing a hammer, then yea a more expedient method would be needed. LOL. :D
$10, no hammer required
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/14/l_a9ec654fc7114e44a38eff20c11fa28f.jpg
Son of a........ya’ upped me one! :p
I guess if a guy can’t aim and swing a hammer, then yea a more expedient method would be needed. LOL. :D
i swing a hammer for a living, and i've never had any success chisel/punching a key with a manual chisel/punch.. but that sure as sheeit doesn't mean someone else isn't skilled at it. the spring loaded punches work great, though.. i've done probably 20 or more with this one, and it's a great center punch for the press.
you can even get different tips for 'em.. i've seen blunt tips, and a guy could probably even find chisel tips and who knows what else.
Heavy Metal
09-18-09, 21:59
A thread has been already started . https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38047
Uhhh.......That is a link to THIS thread.
......the spring loaded punches work great, though.. i've done probably 20 or more with this one, and it's a great center punch for the press.
you can even get different tips for 'em.. i've seen blunt tips, and a guy could probably even find chisel tips and who knows what else.
Different tips huh? I didn’t know that.
I have a couple of the Snap On pencil sized automatic center punches from when I turned wrenches and did aircraft sheet metal work, but I never knew about center punches offering different shaped tips.
i swing a hammer for a living, and i've never had any success chisel/punching a key with a manual chisel/punch.. but that sure as sheeit doesn't mean someone else isn't skilled at it. the spring loaded punches work great, though.. i've done probably 20 or more with this one, and it's a great center punch for the press.
you can even get different tips for 'em.. i've seen blunt tips, and a guy could probably even find chisel tips and who knows what else.
Do you side-stake or top-stake with the spring loaded punch?
On a side note: What do the factories use as a staking ficture? Did Ned just make a smaller, consumer version?
Do you side-stake or top-stake with the spring loaded punch?
On a side note: What do the factories use as a staking ficture? Did Ned just make a smaller, consumer version?
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/8/l_2a606160ae8b402b9b4d95e946186d3e.jpg
different manufacturers are gonna use different methods.. i would GUESS that most just use spring loaded punches.
The only “problem” I see with using the automatic center punch for side staking is, unless the center punch is adjustable, I have no control over the depth of the stake.
I’m kinda partial to the hand stake method due to the control I have over the staking tool and hammer. I can basically “customize” my stakes placement, size, angle, width, depth, ect.
The only “problem” I see with using the automatic center punch for side staking is, unless the center punch is adjustable, I have no control over the depth of the stake.
I’m kinda partial to the hand stake method due to the control I have over the staking tool and hammer. I can basically “customize” my stakes placement, size, angle, width, depth, ect.
you can turn the tension up or down with the knob on the back.. for carrier keys, you turn it all the way up, and it's still going to take 4-6+ clicks to create a good stake- which is good, 'cause it lets you shape the stake.
A couple bucks, and about 5 minutes of work. Hammer not included. ;)
You'd think bending a little metal wouldn't be so complicated. :rolleyes:
The moaks surely has it's place, but the average guy doesn't need it for an occassional stake job.
RogerinTPA
09-19-09, 10:13
Uhhh.......That is a link to THIS thread.
I needed a good laugh!:p
CarlosDJackal
09-19-09, 10:51
A thread has been already started . https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38047
This is what can be construed in software development circles as an "Infinite Loop"!! :p
Thomas M-4
09-19-09, 10:53
This is what can be construed in software development circles as an "Infinite Loop"!! :p
The threads were combined after I posted that.;)
Ned Christiansen
09-19-09, 11:13
Guys, I really appreciate the support. It is great knowing people are looking out for me!
This is nothing but a little SNAFU. I am making a batch of MOACKS Plains for Brownell's as we type. Same product as pictured on my site.
I've been a customer of Brownell's for, I dunno, maybe 25 years now.... and I have never had a complaint. The individuals there, and the whole company culture and personality, is one of straight dealing. In recent years, they have been a customer of mine too, as they carry my SafePort and EoStickers. Same deal-- they could make wild demands, beat me up on price, string me out on payment or not pay at all (hey, sounds just like when I was in plastics and the customers were from the Big Three)...... but they don't. They've been GREAT to deal with going both ways.
Anyone trying to order this tool has probably been told "out of stock, coming soon"..... exactly right. I probably won't have these ready to go to Brownells for a few more weeks (although I have them in stock here). That pic in the latest catalog is the wrong pic and a case of bad timing (like me not getting these done quick enough). As you can imagine, the gestation on making thousands of catalogs is long and unpredictable. That catalog got done before the product.
Thanks again for the concern and support-- when I saw this kinda thought it might happen...... basically, you guys are so predictably "a great bunch of guys" :cool: .
The man has spoken.
/thread
This is nothing but a little SNAFU. I am making a batch of MOAKCS Plains for Brownell's as we type. Same product as pictured on my site.
So Brownells is carrying your tool and not a knockoff?
PRGGodfather
09-19-09, 13:02
Sure sounds like it! Happy to hear it's Ned's!
Uhhh.......That is a link to THIS thread.
I just saw this myself. Think it's a first.
Not a first, the mods combined two threads.
Stand down on the boycott. All is well
I wouldn't have gone as far as boycotting Brownells. They have been helping the shooting community for many many years. I'm a long time supporter.
If that was the case then we would all be boycotting many places. I don't how many "knockoffs" AR items I've seen.. From chest rigs to AR parts. They are copied over and over again.
Ned Christiansen
09-20-09, 10:34
No knockoff. The tool will be one of mine, made right along with the ones I sell.
No knockoff. The tool will be one of mine, made right along with the ones I sell.
That's awesome!!!
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/8/l_2a606160ae8b402b9b4d95e946186d3e.jpg
different manufacturers are gonna use different methods.. i would GUESS that most just use spring loaded punches.
Gotta love that!
No knockoff. The tool will be one of mine, made right along with the ones I sell.
Excellent.
Brownells has always treated me right too, BTW.
Preferred User
09-20-09, 18:47
Slight hijack, but it does have to do with Brownell's and staking; I need to stake a castle nut and after a search on this site for Starrett there are 11 pages of results that all mention Starrett automatic punch, which is cool but there are several sizes (18AA, 18A, 18B, 18C). There are 13 pages of results on Brownell's site but only the 18AA & 18A show up for automatic punches.
I looked at Starrett's site and the 18AA & 18A although different sizes appear to use the same tip. I have an 18B in my tool box which of course uses a different tip. Unfortunately Starrett's site does not provide details on the tip size which I guess is the critical factor. (FWIW The 18C is listed as a heavy-duty model "capable of striking a much heavier blow than the other sizes and has a one-piece point and shank which may also be easily resharpened or replaced.")
Can anyone that has an 18AA or 18A measure the tip? Just need to know if my 18B is too big to use. Thanks.
EDIT: And yes I looked at the tools for home and garage sticky.
Ned Christiansen
10-08-09, 22:39
Update on this. There IS another staking tool, the one referred to at the beginning of the thread. It is not mine. As I now understand it they will be selling both. I thought it was going to be only mine.
Their part number for mine is 100-004-876..... not yet in the catalog. They had a few in stock, not sure about right now, and will soon have lots more.
I know that Brownell's is generally considered good people, and if MOACKS is not patented then no formal crime is committed, but this does rub me wrong way. I don't want to jump to premature conclusions, but if it is what it looks like to me, I am done with Brownell's.
Ned Christiansen
10-09-09, 10:59
Brownells truly is a good outfit made of good people. I've dealt with a lot of companies across several industries over the years and in terms of plain dealing, I mean service, honesty and a genuine philanthropic nature, Brownells ranks Numbah 1. Don't judge them harshly on this......
I look at it like this: Brownell's carries many products that compete directly with each other. This gives the customer choices. I already own a MOACKS plain, and with Brownell's having it in stock, Ned's work will get broader exposure. Sales are good for both parties.
Well, I have both a MOACKS plain and the new Brownells version. Its like comparing an AR and an AK. Ned's is light, elegant and very well thought out. The Brownells is HUGE, heavy and rock like. Both of them do the job, but for equal money its hard not to give the nod to Ned.
I like the fact that word is spreading on the importance of staking, and it's getting easier to do it. (Now, if we could only get manufacturers to do it properly.)
That being said, I hope folks will reward innovation rather than imitation by purchasing's a genuine MOACKS variant.
Slight hijack, but it does have to do with Brownell's and staking; I need to stake a castle nut and after a search on this site for Starrett there are 11 pages of results that all mention Starrett automatic punch, which is cool but there are several sizes (18AA, 18A, 18B, 18C). There are 13 pages of results on Brownell's site but only the 18AA & 18A show up for automatic punches.
I looked at Starrett's site and the 18AA & 18A although different sizes appear to use the same tip. I have an 18B in my tool box which of course uses a different tip. Unfortunately Starrett's site does not provide details on the tip size which I guess is the critical factor. (FWIW The 18C is listed as a heavy-duty model "capable of striking a much heavier blow than the other sizes and has a one-piece point and shank which may also be easily resharpened or replaced.")
Can anyone that has an 18AA or 18A measure the tip? Just need to know if my 18B is too big to use. Thanks.
EDIT: And yes I looked at the tools for home and garage sticky.
I use this
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12619/Product/AUTOMATIC_CENTER_PUNCH
Ned Christiansen
10-22-09, 08:42
As of 10-22 or so, Brownells should have plenty of MOACKS Plains.
Ned Christiansen
09-09-10, 08:35
Brownells will no longer be carrying my MOACKS tool.
All three versions are of course available through me, as well as my .223-to-5.56 reamer and the 6.8SPC version; also my gage from checking chambers to see if they are .223 or 5.56, EoStickers, and Ballistickers.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
Thanks again for the concern and support-- when I saw this kinda thought it might happen...... basically, you guys are so predictably "a great bunch of guys" :cool: .
Don't worry, with a little support and encouragement we can always fix that!
Love the MOACKS ,by the way.
gunnyscouts2
09-09-10, 13:30
I have one of the new brownells staking tool. Havent used it alot yet but it is heavy and big. Cost was right. Was not completely happy with the stake but it could be operator error.
I have used others and would most likely use them instead.
Brownells is great and I get alot of things from them. Just not sure I would suggest this particular tool.:confused:
NED, I thought I bought your carrier staming tool from Brownells. We have.an open account with them so it made sense to buy from them. After readin this thread looks lime I bought the knock off. It is huge. So did you only sell the pocket moacks to Brownells?
Ned Christiansen
09-10-10, 08:37
The only one they were carrying was the MOACKS Plain.
Thanks Ned. I saw some of your other gear for sale there and thought this was your. They have a great return policy. Im sending it back. Glas to hear it was not your. I wasn't impressed. Never used it all I have are BCM BCG's got it for rifles at work I might need it for.
Old thread bump.
Does anyone have any comparison pictures of the staking job that Ned's tool does vs. the staking job that Brownell's tool does?
I thought they were one in the same. Ned makes the tool for Brownell's.
I thought they were one in the same. Ned makes the tool for Brownell's.
Nope.
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/8/l_2a606160ae8b402b9b4d95e946186d3e.jpg
different manufacturers are gonna use different methods.. i would GUESS that most just use spring loaded punches.
I'm so glad this thread came back up. I just used a auto punch like the one in the pic and did 3 bolt carriers in 10 minutes and $18 at my local hardware store.
Ned Christiansen
10-12-11, 08:03
Just to update this from my point of view.
I withdrew my MOACKS from the Brownells catalog after a period of hoping they would withdraw theirs. They didn't so I did.
I still think Brownells is a good outfit, but that certain "elements" may from time to time make decisions that are not in keeping with the old traditions. When you look at the sheer numbers of products carried in the catalog, it's not so hard to imagine that the people at the top who would like to preserve these traditions are probably unaware of this behavior.
Just to update this from my point of view.
I withdrew my MOACKS from the Brownells catalog after a period of hoping they would withdraw theirs. They didn't so I did.
I still think Brownells is a good outfit, but that certain "elements" may from time to time make decisions that are not in keeping with the old traditions. When you look at the sheer numbers of products carried in the catalog, it's not so hard to imagine that the people at the top who would like to preserve these traditions are probably unaware of this behavior.
Buying, using, and recommending only the original MOACKS and your variations. MOACKS, and the rest of your AR tools, are must haves in any maintainers tool kit.
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