PDA

View Full Version : Is my department issuing .223 "hunting" rounds???



BrianC
09-21-09, 13:21
My police department just revised their policy to allow patrol officers to carry their personally owned carbines on duty, which is great because they currently issue Vietnam era rifles with no optics and no white lights. I was issued my duty ammo on Friday and they gave me Remington Express Power-Lokt .223 55GR HP. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that primarily a hunting round? I have not been able to find any ballistic testing or intermediate barrier testing by Dr. Roberts for this particular round.

After reading the various threads from Dr. Roberts, I plan on purchasing my own ammo (providing my department will approve it), and I am looking at either Federal LE Tactical Bonded (LE223T3) or the Speer LE Gold Dot Soft Point (24448). My barrel is a 16”, 1:8 twist. Will I have any problems stabilizing those rounds?

Should a metropolitan police department be issuing the Remington Power-Lokt .223 55GR HP round for duty? By the way, the last officer involved shooting we had included the officer shooting two suspects through their vehicle's windshield. The last SWAT involved shooting included team members shooting a suspect, through the window of his house. Therefore, I think we have to consider intermediate barrier performance in our city.

Molon
09-22-09, 00:07
After reading the various threads from Dr. Roberts, I plan on purchasing my own ammo (providing my department will approve it), and I am looking at either Federal LE Tactical Bonded (LE223T3) or the Speer LE Gold Dot Soft Point (24448). My barrel is a 16”, 1:8 twist. Will I have any problems stabilizing those rounds?

By the way, the last officer involved shooting we had included the officer shooting two suspects through their vehicle's windshield. The last SWAT involved shooting included team members shooting a suspect, through the window of his house. Therefore, I think we have to consider intermediate barrier performance in our city.


You shouldn't have any trouble stabilizing these bullets with a 1:8" twist barrel. The groups pictured below were fired from an AR-15 with a 1:7.7" twist barrel.


64 grain Gold Dot
http://www.box.net/shared/static/tahtdsd7pf.jpg




LE223T3
http://www.box.net/shared/static/64oio84g0s.jpg




Both of the above rounds offer good performance after barriers such as auto glass. The data below is from Dr. G.K. Roberts.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv81/gocartmozart2/64golddotvs62tbbcgeltestsresized01.jpg

wake.joe
09-22-09, 00:41
Deleted

tpd223
09-22-09, 04:24
Both the Remington load Brian asked about, and the V-Max bullets, do very poorly when glass gets in the way of the bullet.

Brian, I'm guessing the 55gr load you are asking about will do 6-8" in bare gelatin. I haven't seen that particular bullet tested, but similar BTHPs that I have seen tested were in that range.

It is a "hunting" load, as in varmint hunting. You are on the right track with the Bonded or Gold Dot.

firecop019
09-22-09, 05:08
Our department rifles have the same core lokt ammo. Chief is convinced that it's the best their is. Those that bought their own rifles have went with Hornady 75gr duty rounds.

We've had to pick our battles, hopefully the next qualification we'll get those shot up and convince him to go with something different. Go get the latest stopping power book, it has a really good write up on .223 duty rounds. Or Doc might have some info for you if you need help getting it by the brass.

Iraqgunz
09-22-09, 05:53
Brian,

Have you considered 5.56 Hornady TAP 75gr.? I think Hornady is resuming individual officer sales. It is also still floating around out there.

BrianC
09-22-09, 09:36
You shouldn't have any trouble stabilizing these bullets with a 1:8" twist barrel. The groups pictured below were fired from an AR-15 with a 1:7.7" twist barrel.


64 grain Gold Dot
http://www.box.net/shared/static/tahtdsd7pf.jpg




LE223T3
http://www.box.net/shared/static/64oio84g0s.jpg




Both of the above rounds offer good performance after barriers such as auto glass. The data below is from Dr. G.K. Roberts.

http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv81/gocartmozart2/64golddotvs62tbbcgeltestsresized01.jpg

Molon, why the disparity between group sizes? Did you shoot both ammo on the same day out of the same rifle? I would have thought the Federal would provide a tighter group than that.

BrianC
09-22-09, 09:45
Both the Remington load Brian asked about, and the V-Max bullets, do very poorly when glass gets in the way of the bullet.

Brian, I'm guessing the 55gr load you are asking about will do 6-8" in bare gelatin. I haven't seen that particular bullet tested, but similar BTHPs that I have seen tested were in that range.

It is a "hunting" load, as in varmint hunting. You are on the right track with the Bonded or Gold Dot.

Thanks tdp223. There is such a wealth of good information on this website. Prior to studying the various sticky threads in "Terminal Ballistic Information", I didn't have a clue as to what makes up a good duty round.

rjacobs
09-22-09, 09:52
Brian,

Have you considered 5.56 Hornady TAP 75gr.? I think Hornady is resuming individual officer sales. It is also still floating around out there.

Seconded on the Hornady TAP 5.56 75gr. From all the research I have done it is about the best thing out there for duty ammo, at least in 75gr form. I haven't done much research in anything lighter.

Hornady(at least the lady I have been talking to) said individual purchase should start up spring 2010 as her best guess from what she has been told. She sent me a list of about 5 or 6 LEO distributors who could get it for me, it ships direct from them to the final customer.

BrianC
09-22-09, 10:18
Brian,

Have you considered 5.56 Hornady TAP 75gr.? I think Hornady is resuming individual officer sales. It is also still floating around out there.

I had not considered Hornady TAP 75gr, mostly because I have no experience with it, and I didn't see any intermediate barrier performance reports in any of Dr. Roberts posts. I am certainly not opposed to Hornady TAP. I know it is a very popular LE round. Maybe I should read up on this round. Any idea of what is sells for per case to an individual officer? My LE distributer does not carry Hornady ammo.

Thanks for your recommendation Iraqgunz.

rjacobs
09-22-09, 10:23
I had not considered Hornady TAP 75gr, mostly because I have no experience with it, and I didn't see any intermediate barrier performance reports in any of Dr. Roberts posts. I am certainly not opposed to Hornady TAP. I know it is a very popular LE round. Maybe I should read up on this round. Any idea of what is sells for per case to an individual officer? My LE distributer does not carry Hornady ammo.

Thanks for your recommendation Iraqgunz.

I will send you the email address via PM of the lady at Hornady that has been helping find me a distributor since their individual sales program isnt running.

BrianC
09-22-09, 10:49
Our department rifles have the same core lokt ammo. Chief is convinced that it's the best their is. Those that bought their own rifles have went with Hornady 75gr duty rounds.

We've had to pick our battles, hopefully the next qualification we'll get those shot up and convince him to go with something different. Go get the latest stopping power book, it has a really good write up on .223 duty rounds. Or Doc might have some info for you if you need help getting it by the brass.

What's crazy is the Power-Lokt is THREE TIMES as expensive as the Federal Tactical Bonded and Speer LE Gold Dot!!! I don't understand why the department is going with this round. I plan on meeting with our range master this week and to discuss this issue.

DrJSW
09-23-09, 22:49
I had not considered Hornady TAP 75gr, mostly because I have no experience with it, and I didn't see any intermediate barrier performance reports in any of Dr. Roberts posts. I am certainly not opposed to Hornady TAP. I know it is a very popular LE round. Maybe I should read up on this round.

If you CAREFULLY re-read DocGKR's sticky you'll note that he says that while he has carried 75 gr TAP for urban situations, he also carries 62 gr TRU Bonded (LE223T3) for situations with intermediate barriers (eg: auto glass).

There have been some issues with Hornady 75 gr TAP and intermediate barriers that are, to my knowledge, still in question. If you want a truly all-around urban rifle round that will handle intermediate barriers and do a good job in the open as well you're probably not going to find anything better than the TRU 62 gr bonded or Black Hills (Nosler Partition) 64 gr.

ST911
09-24-09, 10:51
If you want a truly all-around urban rifle round that will handle intermediate barriers and do a good job in the open as well you're probably not going to find anything better than the TRU 62 gr bonded or Black Hills (Nosler Partition) 64 gr.

Outstanding load. A great companion load for barriers to their standard 60gr JSP, and shoots to approximately the same POI. Last I knew, it was a 60gr though. Recommended.

DrJSW
09-29-09, 23:10
My typo. Yes, it's a 60-gr bullet.