Barrel reaming/extension alignment, extractor shearing, Stag warranty

[djkar]

I own a Stag Arms, Model 2. The gun feeds, fires, and ejects fine as best as a single AR owner can determine. But I am bringing up some issues with my upper as a warranty claim to Stag. They gave me the "run-around" and not being an expert myself, I thought someone here could provide some support. Here are my issues which I emailed to Stag after an unproductive phone call:

ISSUE #1:
When I tried to insert in a 22 conversion kit, it would get stuck on the barrel extension and not go in completely. Upon inspecting my barrel/extension, I've noticed that there is a slight lip where it meets the barrel in the 12 to 3 o'clock positions, directly opposite from where it was hitting my 22 kit. It seems to make logical mechanical sense that the barrel extension is misaligned in that direction. Other have told me that the lip I am seeing is actually a bad barrel reaming job. I also inspected the 22 kit both visually and with calipers and found no defect that might cause it to get stuck.

http://img38.imageshack.us/i/barrelextension.jpg/

ISSUE #2:
I'm encountering case rim damage in the 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions due the the edges of the extractor shearing some brass. This is not a post-fire extraction problem like some people have. I can drop an empty case in the chamber, slam the bolt forward, and then extract the now damaged case. Thus, the damage occurs as the bolt slams and the extractor crosses the case.

http://img43.imageshack.us/i/caseshearing.jpg/

ISSUE #3:
The front sight post may be slightly canted or suffers from some other alignment problem. I cannot tell visually where the problem is, but the rear sight requires excessive windage adjustments to zero to rifle. I've heard that the alignment of the front sight post, gas system, and barrel extension are all tied together.


Am I making a legitimate warranty claim that should be covered under their lifetime warranty from manufacturer defects? I don't want to badmouth Stag until all that can be said is said, but here is their email reply that kind of irked me:

"If our bolt is working with 5.56 ammunition then the rifle is considered to be in specification in regards to the camber. What your seeing is normal for brass as the extractor passes over it and into the lip on the ring. If you are having excessive windage issues I can set up a RMA to have the upper come back here to be inspected and repaired as needed."

Any knowledge that I could use would be most appreciated.

-Dan

[spamsammich]

Issues 1 & 3 are things I would send the upper back for. Do it.
Issue 2 is a good way to damage your extractor, don't do it.

[djkar]

spamsammich,

Concerning the extractor, it damages cases under normal magazine fed fire. I closed the bolt on an empty case just to make sure the damage wasn't related to firing the weapon. Regardless, your advice is noted, Thanks.

[Byron]

Issue 2 is a good way to damage your extractor, don't do it.
An issue for pistols, but not for the AR. Think about how a round is fed from the magazine. The extractor has to jump over the rim no matter what: the rim doesn't slide up into the extractor like on a pistol.

[spamsammich]

looks like 3 reasons to send it in.

Out of curiosity, what color is your extractor spring buffer, how many coils does the spring have, and is there an o-ring installed in this bolt?

[spamsammich]

An issue for pistols, but not for the AR. Think about how a round is fed from the magazine. The extractor has to jump over the rim no matter what: the rim doesn't slide up into the extractor like on a pistol.

It can still be an issue, he's dropping an empty case into the chamber then letting it slam home. A round feeding from the mag slows the bolt and is more gentle than letting it slam home without resistance.

[Iraqgunz]

Another thing that I am seeing as that you have a rifle upper receiver with a carbine barrel. The model 2 is a carbine, correct?

The inside area of the chamber doesn't look right to me either as pointed out already. I would ask Stag to please put the correct upper on the weapon with the M4 feedramps.


I own a Stag Arms, Model 2. The gun feeds, fires, and ejects fine as best as a single AR owner can determine. But I am bringing up some issues with my upper as a warranty claim to Stag. They gave me the "run-around" and not being an expert myself, I thought someone here could provide some support. Here are my issues which I emailed to Stag after an unproductive phone call:

ISSUE #1:
When I tried to insert in a 22 conversion kit, it would get stuck on the barrel extension and not go in completely. Upon inspecting my barrel/extension, I've noticed that there is a slight lip where it meets the barrel in the 12 to 3 o'clock positions, directly opposite from where it was hitting my 22 kit. It seems to make logical mechanical sense that the barrel extension is misaligned in that direction. Other have told me that the lip I am seeing is actually a bad barrel reaming job. I also inspected the 22 kit both visually and with calipers and found no defect that might cause it to get stuck.

http://img38.imageshack.us/i/barrelextension.jpg/

ISSUE #2:
I'm encountering case rim damage in the 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock positions due the the edges of the extractor shearing some brass. This is not a post-fire extraction problem like some people have. I can drop an empty case in the chamber, slam the bolt forward, and then extract the now damaged case. Thus, the damage occurs as the bolt slams and the extractor crosses the case.

http://img43.imageshack.us/i/caseshearing.jpg/

ISSUE #3:
The front sight post may be slightly canted or suffers from some other alignment problem. I cannot tell visually where the problem is, but the rear sight requires excessive windage adjustments to zero to rifle. I've heard that the alignment of the front sight post, gas system, and barrel extension are all tied together.


Am I making a legitimate warranty claim that should be covered under their lifetime warranty from manufacturer defects? I don't want to badmouth Stag until all that can be said is said, but here is their email reply that kind of irked me:

"If our bolt is working with 5.56 ammunition then the rifle is considered to be in specification in regards to the camber. What your seeing is normal for brass as the extractor passes over it and into the lip on the ring. If you are having excessive windage issues I can set up a RMA to have the upper come back here to be inspected and repaired as needed."

Any knowledge that I could use would be most appreciated.

-Dan

[Iraqgunz]

Not a technique that I would use either.


It can still be an issue, he's dropping an empty case into the chamber then letting it slam home. A round feeding from the mag slows the bolt and is more gentle than letting it slam home without resistance.

[UVvis]

For issue #2.

If this is a fired empty casing, I would expect the case rim to get dinged up. Fired empty cases are usually dimensionally big, and you are essentially slamming your extractor (first part to impact) into something that probably doesn't fit the greatest into your chamber. This wouldn't be a legit issue on it's own. It is also a good way to get a case stuck in a chamber.

If it is a new empty casing, or a sized empty casing, I wouldn't expect this as much.

For issue #3, how much windage are we talking about?

For issue #1, are you 100% sure your .22lr kit is hanging up on that spot? Can you rub sharpie marker off on it?

[djkar]

Thank you all for the replies. I see there is some knowledge on this board.

spamsammich,

My rifle, as well as all Stags I believe, has the blue insert which I've heard has 4 coils, though I didn't count mine, and no o-ring.

Iraqgunz,

It is a carbine. And I believe the M4 feed ramps are determined by the manufacturer. Stag does the round ramp without cutting into the upper. It's correct by their standards even if it's not the most desirable feed ramps.

UVvis,

The empty case I put in my chamber was already tumbled and full-length resized - no issues. Concerning slamming on an empty case, I just did that to prove that the damage was unrelated to actually firing the rifle - one time deal. I can manually cycle magazine fed cartridges (taking my firing pin out beforehand if indoors) and still have some case damage.

The windage is about maybe 85% to the left of it's full range. I also remembered that my drop-in forearm rail doesn't line up correctly with my upper rail. Possibly related to my sight alignment issue.

Concerning my kit, I am 100% - already did the sharpie trick and actually filed off some of the kit to make it work. I've done some more reading and I'm pretty certain that the actual problem is that my chamber/bore centerline is not the same centerline as the reaming on the end of the barrel and my barrel extension.

Thanks all for the help. Keep it coming. I want more info and confidence in case I need to argue with Stag about this.

[Iraqgunz]

A properly manufactured M4 type carbine will have feedramps and apparently Stag chooses not to do this. I would also get a carbineextractor spring and insert.


Thank you all for the replies. I see there is some knowledge on this board.

spamsammich,

My rifle, as well as all Stags I believe, has the blue insert which I've heard has 4 coils, though I didn't count mine, and no o-ring.

Iraqgunz,

It is a carbine. And I believe the M4 feed ramps are determined by the manufacturer. Stag does the round ramp without cutting into the upper. It's correct by their standards even if it's not the most desirable feed ramps.

UVvis,

The empty case I put in my chamber was already tumbled and full-length resized - no issues. Concerning slamming on an empty case, I just did that to prove that the damage was unrelated to actually firing the rifle - one time deal. I can manually cycle magazine fed cartridges (taking my firing pin out beforehand if indoors) and still have some case damage.

The windage is about maybe 85% to the left of it's full range. I also remembered that my drop-in forearm rail doesn't line up correctly with my upper rail. Possibly related to my sight alignment issue.

Concerning my kit, I am 100% - already did the sharpie trick and actually filed off some of the kit to make it work. I've done some more reading and I'm pretty certain that the actual problem is that my chamber/bore centerline is not the same centerline as the reaming on the end of the barrel and my barrel extension.

Thanks all for the help. Keep it coming. I want more info and confidence in case I need to argue with Stag about this.

[Blankwaffe]

Issues 1 & 3 are things I would send the upper back for. Do it.
Issue 2 is a good way to damage your extractor, don't do it.

Yeap by all means send that upper back.I really dont like the ridge at the breech of the chamber.Looks half ars regardless.The canted FSB is common issue but not acceptable.

Ive personally had a few extractors from another manufacturer that I suspect to be MIM(pin marked).The main issue I saw with the suspect extractors is the extractor spring port is shallow and undersized.This caused difficult spring installation to say the least,and the the extractor spring to coil stack and essentially bottom out not allowing full extractor travel,giving indicators of excessice extractor tension and the resulting case rim damage on chambering even with the shortest weakest springs I could find.
Maybe that is the same issue you are seeing in that regard.

[djkar]

Iraqgunz,

I've seen pictures of half a dozen different styles of feed ramps from different manufacturers. Not sure if any affect function although the M4 ramps in the upper appear to be best. Maybe since Stag makes parts for others, they chose to avoid the risk of ending up with an upper and lower with mismatched ramp styles, just a guess.

Blankwaffe,

That's some quality input on the extractor issue. I'll keep that handy since it sounds mechanically right for what I'm experiencing. We'll see what Stag thinks.

A general update on my research:
I pretty certain, now that I've received advice around the web and gave everything a good second look, that the barrel has been reamed with two different centerlines in two different areas. The chamber/bore with one centerline and the beveled barrel end that feeds cartridges into the chamber and the part that aligns the barrel extension are on a different centerline. That's exactly how the milling looks. And it also makes sense with how my 22 kit doesn't fit. I think a barrel replacement is in order.

[djkar]

UPDATE: I sent my upper back to Stag and within 2 days, I had a brand new everything - upper, barrel, bolt, etc. I have yet to shoot it, but everything looks a lot better than the original upper. The bolt is definitely tighter and will need to be worn in. Also, it appears that Stag are now staking the gas key the "proper" way.

Score one for Stag's warranty.

[An Undocumented Worker]

Congratulations. let us now how well it works out for ya.

[fdxpilot]

UPDATE: I sent my upper back to Stag and within 2 days, I had a brand new everything - upper, barrel, bolt, etc. I have yet to shoot it, but everything looks a lot better than the original upper. The bolt is definitely tighter and will need to be worn in. Also, it appears that Stag are now staking the gas key the "proper" way.

Score one for Stag's warranty.

How are the feed ramps?

[thopkins22]

I can manually cycle magazine fed cartridges (taking my firing pin out beforehand if indoors) and still have some case damage.

Late to the party, but don't do this unless you really want to have some fun getting your rifle broken down again.;)

[djkar]

fdxpilot,

Stag still isn't doing the M4 cuts in the upper. But the ramps in the barrel extension are nice, round, and will probably never cause a failure to feed.

thopkins22,

How would cycling ammo manually cause a problem? If you put a round in the chamber, for example, and decide you won't be shooting it, you have to extract it manually.

[spamsammich]

cycling without your firing pin makes it possible for the cam pin to spin in the upper, locking it up nice and tight.