View Full Version : Strong opposite opinions
sonrider657
09-24-09, 20:37
On "that other forum" everyone seems to love the new Piston Guns. Here on M4Carbine.net everyone seems to hate them.
The folks on each respective forum seem to be in agreement with one another but diametrically opposed to the consensus on the other forum.
What's up with the very strong and opposing opinions on Gas Piston Systems for AR's?
I think "hate" is a pretty strong word. I think that piston driven AR types are useful in very limited applications.
As passed on by Larry Vickers, who consulted with HK to bring out the 416....
1) Heavy full auto fire
2) Barrel length less than 14.5"
3) Heavy use of a suppressor.
If you can answer yes to any of the above then a piston driven system like the HK 416 might be very useful.
I think that the general consensus here among most of the very knowledgeable is that a piston type is a waste on a 16" carbine, and may very well introduce more issues than they solve.
people follow their resident SMEs.. ours don't like pistons, so most folks around here follow that lead.
i cant speak for TOS, but i'm guessing their SMEs are all about the pistons.
if you confront somebody about it, they'll say "no, i'm not a follower- i do/don't like pistons because _______ (insert all the things their local SMEs have to say about pistons)." :p
I also think that generally speaking the overall level of experience or even expertise between the 2 sites if different. I think we have more end users here, whether military, law enforcement, industry, or enthusiast. By end user I mean that the concern is more about putting accurate rounds on target reliably. I can't say we are'nt all into new toys and we like our bling, but not to the extent it replaces accuracy and reliabilty.
I personally didn't go with a piston upper because I don't like the weight. I also don't have high enough round counts between cleanings for it to be an issue. Plenty of people on this forum do have piston uppers but plenty of people on this forum do have high enough round counts for it to be a factor.
On another note, I stuck with this site because more people seem to have common sense and most of the knowledge based threads don't end up in some kinda drama. Notice I said most.
DocHolliday01
09-24-09, 22:06
I think "hate" is a pretty strong word. I think that piston driven AR types are useful in very limited applications.
As passed on by Larry Vickers, who consulted with HK to bring out the 416....
1) Heavy full auto fire
2) Barrel length less than 14.5"
3) Heavy use of a suppressor.
If you can answer yes to any of the above then a piston driven system like the HK 416 might be very useful.
I think that the general consensus here among most of the very knowledgeable is that a piston type is a waste on a 16" carbine, and may very well introduce more issues than they solve.
I went with a Piston Upper for # 2,3. I purchased a 10.5 and will eventually run a can on it. I did a lot of reading before I made my decision and will soon know if I made the right one. If not I don't think I will have much trouble selling it.
Well, as a guy who frequents both sites.....
The other site is where I have a few laughs, chat with local enthusiasts, and discuss the more casual aspects of shooting.
This site--and only this site--is where I go for serious help or info regarding my rifles. Serious answers from serious shooters.
I think the number one reason to hate piston guns is not having a standardized system.
Every swinging dick wants a piece of the Pie including ARES, LWRC, Adams Arms, Ruger, Bushmaster, POF, HK, and Colt among others.
Not standardizing means:
A lack of a proven track record in a lot of cases
B no foundation. The product could be gone tomorrow and you might need a spare part. Good luck.
That's the reason I'm not buying one. We have one standard system and 20 others.
I like both designs, I cant say I have a preference towards either. My piston AR is a 6.8 while all my DI guns are 5.56 so I cant really chime in on recoil or accuracy (I dont test for accuracy anyways, just zero and shoot) differences but I really have no problems with either type of rifle. I guess its just good to have something different that I enjoy.
ThirdWatcher
09-25-09, 02:08
... the concern is more about putting accurate rounds on target reliably. I can't say we aren't all into new toys and we like our bling, but not to the extent it replaces accuracy and reliabilty.
That's where I am at. My first experience with this weapon system was in BCT in 1973 (M-16A1). I bought my first AR-16A2 in 1989 to carry on LE duty and I've never been without one close at hand since then.
I've never owned a rifle with less than a 16" barrel and I am pretty fanatical about keeping them clean so I've never had a problem with reliability. I've never even needed to use the forward assist over the years (although I've never been in combat).
I've got nothing against the piston design, but I'm got a "wait and see" attitude about it. As it is now, I don't see the need to replace something that isn't broken.
YMMV :)
variablebinary
09-25-09, 04:21
I have one AR15 10.5" piston upper by LWRC. It's been a champ. It's not as ammo picky as my LMT 10.5", runs clean, and doesnt devour lube.
Though, I probably will NOT be adding any piston AR15's to the collection. In the case of LWRC, the cost of entry is bordering on laughable and at the end of the day, it's still just an AR15.
Unless there is some smoking-deal-of-the-century HK416 upper, my next AR15 product will be DI based
I don't know if this thread is supposed to be just another rehash of the piston vs. DI debate or if it's supposed to be a discussion of why there is a public perception of being pro-DI or pro-piston from one site to another. If the former there are already dozens of threads on this forum and others where we can continue to rehash this old argument. If the latter, chances are good that no good can come from it but I'll take a stab anyway.
It's a given that, at the core, all internet forums are social sites. They start with a common bond like the M4 carbine, or a Jeep Wrangler, or golf, or sports betting, or wife-swapping, or whatever, but they really are about using the internet for social interaction. Generally, they follow the same sociological phenomena as real life (only with a lot less civility too much of the time). As such, bkb hits on an important point regarding people following their herd. Most don't even know they are doing it because they think of it as being "informed" and not as following. They take the information presented as fact and regurgitate it as their own without processing the information to come up with their own take.
All of that said, I do think (hope?) that M4C gets more actual shooters than TOS. when I was a member there they had literally hundreds, if not thousands, of posters who never left the general discussion section. I knew of many people in my A/O that I met in person that had safes full of guns yet hadn't been to the range in years yet they were buying new guns & gear and espousing the relative merits of these products that they had never even used. With zero actual hands-on use, chasing the latest and greatest becomes the culture of any group.
Hopefully, M4C is different. We expect that someone posting on something either has first-hand experience with an item or that they indicate where they got their opinion from. Templar's post quoting Larry Vickers is a good example of this. Adding one's own take on opinions presented by others is acceptable (and encouraged) as well.
SON and Rob-from what I have seen on TOS, the guys who have been around a long time generally wont go for a piston gun unless they already have all the ARs from standard makers that they want.
OTOH, you have brand new AR-type shooters who just walked into the gun shop, bought a piston gun, put 300 rounds through it and called it flawless, perfection, leaps and bounds beyond standard AR15 reliability and accuracy.
I have considered a piston gun just to play around with at the range (esp since my dealer can get an M6A2 for $1800), but I still want an SR15 and another Colt 6920.
Failure2Stop
09-25-09, 08:41
The viability of piston operation is beyond question, but individual design is not. To claim to "hate" piston ARs is akin to saying that you hate everything that is not direct impingement. Something like 98% of autoloading rifle operating systems are piston operated in some fashion other than direct gas impingement. There are great ones, and there are terrible ones. They vary in precision, reliability, robustness, and ease of maintenance. There are definite advantages to a piston system over a DI system, but there are also advantages of a DI system over pistons. The value of your consumer $ is reflected in which advantages you need/want and take advantage of.
There are ways in which a piston AR can be superior to a DI gun, and if those reasons are valid for your use, I will recommend a piston gun, as I do have experience on them. If someone just wants to get one to be the coolest kid on the block, go right on ahead, but simply replacing the DI system with a piston of some type is no indicator of superiority or wisely spent $$.
Most people would be better off taking the price difference between a decent DI AR and a piston AR and applying it to training and practice.
I think "hate" is a pretty strong word. I think that piston driven AR types are useful in very limited applications.
As passed on by Larry Vickers, who consulted with HK to bring out the 416....
1) Heavy full auto fire
2) Barrel length less than 14.5"
3) Heavy use of a suppressor.
If you can answer yes to any of the above then a piston driven system like the HK 416 might be very useful.
I think that the general consensus here among most of the very knowledgeable is that a piston type is a waste on a 16" carbine, and may very well introduce more issues than they solve.
This is always a good rule of thumb.
My personal issue is that as we see more and more piston guns getting 10,000rds + on them, we are seeing all kinds of hardware failures (like bolt's, op rod's and the piston itself breaking). I think the reason for the bolt failures is because the carrier is dragging the bolt back at an angle.
Piston AR's also tend to be much heavier than DI guns. The reason is that the barrel has to be stiffer (read thicker) in order to get the same type of accuracy that a normal AR with a pencil barrel would achieve.
The main kicker is that if your DI gun goes down, you can find parts VERY easily. If your piston gun goes down, you are 100% F*CKED!
I shoot a lot of suppressed SBR's and have come up with a formula that makes them just as good as any suppressed piston AR IMHO.
Most people are interested in the piston system for the following reasons:
1. Their only experience with a DI gun is a DPMS/RRA/Oly/BM and these models left a bad taste in their mouth.
2. Believe that they do not have to clean their piston gun (EVER).
3. Less malfunctions.
4. Gun runs "cool."
5. Nothing will ever break (like bolts).
C4
I think most of the "hostility" to piston based formats comes not from a dislike of the premise of them, but instead, their implementation, "newness" and use in "non-ideal" systems.
Clarifications
Implementation: As there is no "standard" for piston based AR15 systems, there is a wide variation in the quality and functionality of the available systems. This leads to the second issue...
Newness: I've not been a shooter for long (at least in AR based weapons), but, it seems that most piston systems (for the AR platform) have come about in the past 3-4 years. As the crowd here at M4C stresses reliability over anything else, the vast majority here do not have the data or trigger time to feel comfortable using such a system in any sort of situation where it is mission critical. Once that crowd gets more comfortable with the systems, they might come around. Then again, they could decide that pistons still suck (not saying either way, as I've never used a piston gun).
Aside: One of the big differences between M4C and TOS is that our SME's are clearly noted, and often listened to. If DocGKR told me that a certain round was far superior to another, I'd believe it. If GotM4 said that Bubba's Barrel Shack made the best shooting 3 gun barrel he'd laid hands on...I'd trust his assessment. If Cletus over at TOS said either...I'd want proof. (Just picking random names...not picking on anyone in particular)
Implementation: As mentioned previously, Larry Vickers stated his opinion where piston systems would be preferred to DI systems. Those criteria, in a nutshell, are all things that are beyond the scope of MOST shooters. Since the people asking questions on pistons are often new to the scene, the advice given to pursue DI systems is based on the conception (correct or not) that they will be shooting the typical 16" AR. In situations where this might be different (Suppressed, SBR, etc), the advice given shifts some, but, going back to point #2 ("newness"), stays mostly with DI systems.
So...that's just my $0.02.
-Adam
Outlander Systems
09-25-09, 10:57
Stop me if I'm out of line, or misinformed, but I was under the impression that one of the benefits of a piston-system was increased bolt life.
:confused:
Stop me if I'm out of line, or misinformed, but I was under the impression that one of the benefits of a piston-system was increased bolt life.
:confused:
One would think, but am being told by .Mil Shooters that they are seeing bolts broken between 9,000-12,000rds.
C4
I shoot a lot of suppressed SBR's and have come up with a formula that makes them just as good as any suppressed piston AR IMHO.
C4
What is your formula Grant?
Outlander Systems
09-25-09, 11:38
One would think, but am being told by .Mil Shooters that they are seeing bolts broken between 9,000-12,000rds.
C4
Boooooo on that. Despite recently getting an II gun, I'm starting to wonder if it's not six in one, half-dozen the other...
What I'm concerned with is a possible failure of the operating rod, since that, unlike a bolt, isn't something you're likely to carry a spare for, and, though I've not researched it, seems like it would be an absolute nightmare to repair.
The lack of standardisation also sucks, since it's like VHS & Betamax times 10.
Video of AA Piston & DI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7GTZ0DixqA&feature=player_embedded
I personally don't know enough to make a judgment call on the inherent superiority of one system vs. another. My first II roscoe is still waiting on more goodies, to include an Anti-Tilt buffer, before I take it out shooting.
It seems like, due to the fact that we're dealing with machines, friction and thermodynamics will play a part, and no system, regardless of the design, will be without failure.
Outlander Systems
09-25-09, 11:39
What is your formula Grant?
Religious cleaning + Lots of lube? ;)
What is your formula Grant?
Using a quality barrel, with M4 feedramps, small gas port, LMT enhanced carrier with a quality bolt, and a buffer and spring to match the GP size. Last but not, least, quality magazines.
Not only does my gun run cleaner than a suppressed piston AR, but it also has almost ZERO felt recoil. This makes it one of the fastest (on target) AR's out there.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33743
C4
Herd mentality. I don't know how many times I've come up to a stoplight with 2 right hand lanes(4 lane road) and seen 4 or 5 cars in one lane. Every one else is in this lane so the sheeple follow right along, never thinking to get into the lane witout anyone in it. Same principle: go to Wally World, go to check out, and there are multiple people in several lines with several lines with no one in them.
Like bkb and rob touched on, most people do not think for themselves. Can you say government schools? Thank goodness some of us managed to not get brainwashed. But then again, I wasn't singing songs to the president.
Reason there is no piston AR in my immediate future:
1. Cost -a lot of extra cash going to waist.
2. Weight - It adds up, especially after adding accessories. I'll take a little extra
cleaning for the weight reduction.
3. DI AR works for me -For my needs and Di is more than adequate with less cost
and weight.
Do I hate piston AR's?... No. I just don't have a need for one.
Will I have on one day?... maybe.
militarymoron
09-25-09, 12:50
i don't have a strong opinion on either DI or piston ARs except that i like to try out different things to see how well they work.
i like the piston uppers i have, and shoot them more often than the DI uppers, mostly as curiosity to put more rounds through them and see what problems crop up. the DI uppers are 'known' variables (i've been shooting DI uppers since '84) - i'm always interested in the 'unknown'.
John_Wayne777
09-25-09, 12:54
I think "hate" is a pretty strong word. I think that piston driven AR types are useful in very limited applications.
As passed on by Larry Vickers, who consulted with HK to bring out the 416....
1) Heavy full auto fire
2) Barrel length less than 14.5"
3) Heavy use of a suppressor.
If you can answer yes to any of the above then a piston driven system like the HK 416 might be very useful.
I think that the general consensus here among most of the very knowledgeable is that a piston type is a waste on a 16" carbine, and may very well introduce more issues than they solve.
Indeed. Some treat a piston gun as if it is a solution to all problems in and of itself...pistons are not magic, and as such don't magically solve problems with the platform. Just like DI AR's, all piston guns are not created equal. Further, many of the DI AR carbines far exceed the service needs of most users. The average Colt 6920 will last for a very long time even with a user that fires thousands of rounds per year in training.
Knowing this, it makes more sense for most users to put the money intended for a piston AR into a good DI gun with a good light, optic, and sling, and then to seek out training.
wow, a discussion of piston and direct impingement systems that hasn't decayed into name calling and trolling!
i have both types, and the main reason for getting a piston set up was that i hate the gas from the impingement system blowing back into my face. i brought an m6a2 and while it is a good weapon, the balance feels off, the rail system is too wide, it's heavy and it recoils more than my di rifles.
i keep going back to my 6920 and increasingly my e3. both deliver better accuracy, both are lighter and to be honest, by the time you get the rail covers off the m6a2, they all take about the same amount of time to clean.
i do take on board the substantial price penalty you are expected to pay to join the piston club.
i don't however subscribe to the argument leveled at piston guns that there is no common operating system, rather i regard them as different weapons combining the excellent ergonomics of the ar platform, much like you would compare a sig 556 to an ar for example. i've seen no evidence of carrier tilt on the m6a2 and certainly no bolt wear. in point of fact, as the bolt is stabilized in the barrel extension by chamber pressure and as the fit between the bolt and carrier is sloppy, i find no evidence of bolt tilt. if hk416 bolts are getting to 12k in heavy use, that's at least double what you would expect from an impingement m4 in the same situation.
for me it's like a gas or diesel truck, both get you where you need to go, they just go about it in a different way.
now what would be really cool would be a light-weight, well balanced, piston driven rifle with no cost penalty, less recoil and narrower rail system. could that be the mrp - almost.
On "that other forum" everyone seems to love the new Piston Guns. Here on M4Carbine.net everyone seems to hate them.
The folks on each respective forum seem to be in agreement with one another but diametrically opposed to the consensus on the other forum.
What's up with the very strong and opposing opinions on Gas Piston Systems for AR's?
Like many others have said, "hate" is a strong word. I would lovingly own an HK416 or one of the Colt or LMT piston guns. I just don't need one right now.
As for the differences of opinions between the two sites take a look at who's pushing the piston guns and what their credentials are. Here you know who the Industry Professionals and Subject Matter Experts are and over there you have no idea who they are. ;)
IIRC before I had enough of that place the biggest and most vocal proponent of a certain piston gun was a college kid that openly admitted that he rarely shot ARs and had little experience and NO training. That's not a knock against piston guns but a warning about being careful who you get advice from.
wow, a discussion of piston and direct impingement systems that hasn't decayed into name calling and trolling!
i have both types, and the main reason for getting a piston set up was that i hate the gas from the impingement system blowing back into my face. i brought an m6a2 and while it is a good weapon, the balance feels off, the rail system is too wide, it's heavy and it recoils more than my di rifles.
i keep going back to my 6920 and increasingly my e3. both deliver better accuracy, both are lighter and to be honest, by the time you get the rail covers off the m6a2, they all take about the same amount of time to clean.
i do take on board the substantial price penalty you are expected to pay to join the piston club.
i don't however subscribe to the argument leveled at piston guns that there is no common operating system, rather i regard them as different weapons combining the excellent ergonomics of the ar platform, much like you would compare a sig 556 to an ar for example. i've seen no evidence of carrier tilt on the m6a2 and certainly no bolt wear. in point of fact, as the bolt is stabilized in the barrel extension by chamber pressure and as the fit between the bolt and carrier is sloppy, i find no evidence of bolt tilt. if hk416 bolts are getting to 12k in heavy use, that's at least double what you would expect from an impingement m4 in the same situation.
for me it's like a gas or diesel truck, both get you where you need to go, they just go about it in a different way.
now what would be really cool would be a light-weight, well balanced, piston driven rifle with no cost penalty, less recoil and narrower rail system. could that be the mrp - almost.
Negative on the 416 breaking bolts with hard use. 9-12k un-suppressed and no FA use. They were supposed to last for 20k (per HK). I can get 8-10k out of a DI bolt with 90% fired suppressed (in my SBR's).
C4
so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?
so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?
My info comes from the tier 1 trigger pullers and .Gov employees. I am being not exact for a reason.
C4
so what specifically is causing the bolt failures? material choice, timing, etc. while i don't doubt what you are saying, it's a little general and non-specific, do you have any data or sources?
speculation is the bolt is pushed back at an angle. other speculation is it getting hit with the op rod pretty hard breaks it.
I like both types...but if I had to go into a firefight, I would take a Colt DI over a Piston LWRC (Personal preference, no reason why).
Iraq Ninja
09-26-09, 03:36
I had an HK 416 upper and sold it after a year. Ran like a champ, but in the end I really didn't see a need for it. Heavy too. BUT, it never through rounds off like other Piston guns do.
I am impressed by the LMT piston gun. Doesn't seem to have the heavy weight associated with other systems.
If HK had released their piston upper in the US, I wonder if we would have as many piston brands as we have now? HK was the standard at one time. Are they still?
Outlander Systems
09-26-09, 06:34
I had an HK 416 upper and sold it after a year. Ran like a champ, but in the end I really didn't see a need for it. Heavy too. BUT, it never through rounds off like other Piston guns do.
I am impressed by the LMT piston gun. Doesn't seem to have the heavy weight associated with other systems.
If HK had released their piston upper in the US, I wonder if we would have as many piston brands as we have now? HK was the standard at one time. Are they still?
A Civilian 416 and the ACR are what have really motivated me to take seriously piston weapons.
I ended up getting the SR-556, since I didn't want to wait for either, and had the opportunity to get rid of a Bushmaster to do it.
My policy for my personal op-rod AR was that it had to be an integrated system, rather than a drop-in.
I'm curious as to what price the MR556 is going to clock in at. If it's in the SCAR ballpark, I may possibly pass.
I wholeheartedly agree that if HK hadn't pussyfooted around, this discussion wouldn't be happening, and it would be the precedent for all others, and most likely become *the* piston-driven AR.
Grant,
For perspective because I don't know, what is the typical round count to bolt failure for DI M4s? 9-12K doesn't seem too bad...?
I'm in the military, currently in Iraq, my personal AR happens to be an LMT MRP piston upper just because that's what was available (for an instant) at normal retail price before I left for this deployment (I wanted a personal AR just in case of a Ban while I was gone). I would have been happy with DI and I can always swap a DI barrel/BCG into the MRP.
I like the idea of them, but I have concerns.
It has been noted a few times in this thread that there are many different types available. Likewise, there is no real "set standard" yet. They just haven't been around long enough for me to build an AR with a piston system.
I know that the DI system has it's problems. I also know that it will work for many years without a hitch.
I don't know that about pistons in an AR yet. Some data suggests it here and there, but it's just not enough for me yet.
I liken it to the automotive industry. In the early days, cars were electric powered, gasoline powered, diesel powered, steam powered, gas powered, gasification powered, heck, spring powered, air powered, some were even wind powered. Some engines were even external combustion. They were all wonderful and new, and all of them looked very good on paper. Time told a different story, however, and some of them turned out to be rubbish. Others were too hard to maintain, and some were too difficult or expensive to manufacture at their price points.
Eventually, though, everyone settled on the internal combustion piston driven gasoline engine as a rough standard. From there, the industry flourished, and over the years, the issues were worked out of the machine.
Out of all the various ways to put a piston in the AR platform, one of them will show itself to be better than the others, eventually. That's when I'll put one in an important firearm. They may all seem strikingly similar, but those small differences will add up to large differences in side effects over time.
It probably doesn't really matter all that much, though, for the average user. When I get around to really thinking about the different systems, I may try one on a budget build to see how it all works out.
There are a lot of people using them now, though, and over the years to come, more data will be revealed.
Grant,
For perspective because I don't know, what is the typical round count to bolt failure for DI M4s? 9-12K doesn't seem too bad...?
I'm in the military, currently in Iraq, my personal AR happens to be an LMT MRP piston upper just because that's what was available (for an instant) at normal retail price before I left for this deployment (I wanted a personal AR just in case of a Ban while I was gone). I would have been happy with DI and I can always swap a DI barrel/BCG into the MRP.
If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.
On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.
C4
If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.
On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.Thanks for the reply, I'm trackin' now. At first I thought maybe by reports of 9-12K in the piston bolts, that was worse than expected for DI guns. It's more like there isn't necessarily a benefit (or a large benefit) to the piston system in terms of bolt life due to lower temps etc.
Roughly the same bolt life or a little better is OK. I'm sure the differences in piston design play a big role (where the lack of standardization comes in). I wouldn't know how the LMT system compares to the HK416 other than cosmetics.
My next AR will be a more standard M4 type, DI with a carbine or mid length gas by whichever high quality maker suits my fancy when I buy it. I do appreciate the great info on this site...I knew a lot about the M16 series from a user perspective (almost 17 years), but I never knew what made a Colt different from a "fill in the blank" civilian maker until coming here. I would definitely expect my civilian ARs to hold up like my issue M4 (now I know which brands will) or would at least like to know where it is likely to fail ahead of time (and now I do).
I wish I had the time/ammo to let all of you know when my LMT piston bolt fails...
Thanks for the reply, I'm trackin' now. At first I thought maybe by reports of 9-12K in the piston bolts, that was worse than expected for DI guns. It's more like there isn't necessarily a benefit (or a large benefit) to the piston system in terms of bolt life due to lower temps etc.
Roughly the same bolt life or a little better is OK. I'm sure the differences in piston design play a big role (where the lack of standardization comes in). I wouldn't know how the LMT system compares to the HK416 other than cosmetics.
My next AR will be a more standard M4 type, DI with a carbine or mid length gas by whichever high quality maker suits my fancy when I buy it. I do appreciate the great info on this site...I knew a lot about the M16 series from a user perspective (almost 17 years), but I never knew what made a Colt different from a "fill in the blank" civilian maker until coming here. I would definitely expect my civilian ARs to hold up like my issue M4 (now I know which brands will) or would at least like to know where it is likely to fail ahead of time (and now I do).
I wish I had the time/ammo to let all of you know when my LMT piston bolt fails...
As far as how the bolt unlocks on a piston driven AR, they are pretty much all the same I think. The HK 416 is really the top of the food chain IMHO.
The big thing that the Military thought they were getting with a piston gun is much longer life on parts. That does not seem to be a reality.
C4
From the ads/videos I have seen of piston guns is that they "subject" them to all these bad things, but they dont seem very bad.
I can bury my dog in mud and/or sand like they did, pull her out and she has no failures either. They all look great in videos and they will sell because of shop marketing, but I dont think the cost makes a better weapon.
IMHO on the AR/M16 platform ,I don't believe one system is head and shoulders above the other and they both have plus and minuses . Get a top tier maufacturer of either system and don' worry about it. In new weapons like the SCAR and ACR the piston was designed to be the operating system . IMHO which is better in an AR15/M16 is just about a power struggle for market share and your business ( $$$$ ) because peoples companys and livelihoods are on the line.
I have no strong opinions regarding DI vs. piston AR's. I'm a recreational shooter and use relatively low quantities of ammunition so I'm a very long way from meeting any criteria for which a piston gun might be advantageous. All that said I do have some personal bias for DI AR's simply for parts availability.
On technical matters such as the topic of this thread, actually listening to SMEs is nothing like the synchophant behavior that is prevalent on many forums.
On matters such as this (and a vast number of other topics here) I think it's to a person's credit to study what SMEs have to say and learn from it. That's far cheaper and faster than running tens of thousands of rounds downrange in combat conditions personally.
A bigger and actually funnier scenario are the non-SMEs who will argue incessantly with SMEs - usually based on their relative sliver of experience. Years of shooting don't count - massive round counts, heavy duty training, and combat deployments do. I've got over 40 years of shooting experience, but its been almost all recreational on my own slim nickel. I've learned a lot on my own but on the subjects that concern this board, I've learned far more from the SMEs, then tried it and found them to be quite correct generally.
I had interest in going piston when I still believed I had to keep my ARs Q-tip test clean to make them reliable. That "belief" had survived decades. When I learned from SMEs that lube was far more important than spotless and discovered - dang! My guns just shoot and shoot and shoot all I can afford without fanatical cleaning, I lost interest in spending money on piston guns. Then when I noticed the growing pains of the designs . . . I don't have the time or money for that.
I have had the CMMG piston conversion, LWRCi, LMT, and POS and have had no problems with any of them. If I had to choose one, it would probably be LWRCi. However, now I am back to only DI guns instead. The AR-15 was originally designed to be a DI not gas piston. Sure, there were some prototypes and the military even tested them and decided to stick with the basic AR configuration. So long as you keep the AR well maintained it will work well.
With that though, there is always room for improvement. One thing I would have liked to see was someone to develop a complete intigrated new gas piston upper with the recoil system and all built right in to the upper. That way you could go with a folding stock setup. This seems to be the wave of the future moving forward with the new gas piston guns, i.e. the SCAR, XCR, ACR, etc.
:)
If we are talking about 10.5's (MK18's), shot mostly on FA, the bolt starts to show cracks in or around 4K. The bolt goes in under 6-8K.
On SA use, you should be able to get at least 10K out of a bolt.
C4
Yep, duty cycle plays a huge role.
As has already been mentioned, unless you are working with the above 3 issues you would be better off with a DI AR.
Going with the Mk18 over the HK416 was a huge point of contention. But the Mk18 has sustainment and commonality in the current system. SOF would have then been procuring 3 guns - the M4/Mk18, HK416, and the SCAR.
The DoD and the civilian market have the same problem with piston guns. There is no clear standard/winner in the piston debate. We have over 40 years of development with the DI AR.
And, it is still not a settled issue! They may be saving the best for last with the ACR/Masada. At the very least the XM8 is dead.
What will be 'the next big thing'? Who knows? Personally, I am pretty happy with the devil I know. I will save my money for more DI guns and ammo. Let the DoD and the enthusiast community fight out the piston debate. From what I have seen, a quality DI AR with good mags will do everything you need it to do.
Who knows, maybe 40 years from now we will have a clearly better piston driven gun!?
I think the number one reason to hate piston guns is not having a standardized system.
Every swinging dick wants a piece of the Pie including ARES, LWRC, Adams Arms, Ruger, Bushmaster, POF, HK, and Colt among others.
Not standardizing means:
A lack of a proven track record in a lot of cases
B no foundation. The product could be gone tomorrow and you might need a spare part. Good luck.
That's the reason I'm not buying one. We have one standard system and 20 others.
If your piston gun breaks in twenty years where do you go to buy parts, in many situations only one place, and who is going to fix it? If mine breaks, I will be able to go to hundreds of places and probably find good help to get it fixed. That was my only issue.
Yep, duty cycle plays a huge role.
As has already been mentioned, unless you are working with the above 3 issues you would be better off with a DI AR.
Going with the Mk18 over the HK416 was a huge point of contention. But the Mk18 has sustainment and commonality in the current system. SOF would have then been procuring 3 guns - the M4/Mk18, HK416, and the SCAR.
The DoD and the civilian market have the same problem with piston guns. There is no clear standard/winner in the piston debate. We have over 40 years of development with the DI AR.
And, it is still not a settled issue! They may be saving the best for last with the ACR/Masada. At the very least the XM8 is dead.
What will be 'the next big thing'? Who knows? Personally, I am pretty happy with the devil I know. I will save my money for more DI guns and ammo. Let the DoD and the enthusiast community fight out the piston debate. From what I have seen, a quality DI AR with good mags will do everything you need it to do.
Who knows, maybe 40 years from now we will have a clearly better piston driven gun!?
One soldier definitely has no need for 3 guns in 5.56. The long and short barrels qualify two guns, and the SCAR and 416 are in the same category. If they keep the M4 they should keep the 416 and lose the SCAR. The weapons training needs to be homogeneous and muscle memory needs to be the rule.
The only way to keep the SCAR is to phase out the M4 in my opinion. The guys say, "we like the M4 because we can get after market parts and modify them", but the command is in bed with the SCAR and has too much money invested (an opinion I heard voiced). The reciprocating bolt handle, and hot operating system [burning guys in transitions], among other things, are disliked by some of the guys fielding them.
I look at the SCAR and it looks like a good gun, but a package without a lot of possible modifications, and the barrels are lighter profile than i like to see, so my personal gripe would be it seems like the barrel was lightened to make the gun competitive in weight on spec sheets. That's historically one of the only good reasons to see light barrel profile in military weapons- especially weapons fielded to SF (heavy silencer users). You gotta remember this thing is replacing an M4A1- the heavy barrel M4 varient. And it's probably heavier too.
rightwingmaniac
09-27-09, 12:16
i own both di and piston guns. the di's are colt and lmt. the pistons are lwrc and pof. my favorite is the lwrc in 6.8.
most people that dont like the piston guns have never ran one. if they dont own one then they hate on them.
my lwrc shoots sub moa all day long. my colt (6940)is right around 2 moa. neither one has had a hiccup yet.
there is a reason why companies are going to piston. its a better system. its bad when you have people say "you aint using a sbr or suppressor, so you dont need one" as there only excuse.
when people are given the option on which system they can receive, they go piston. whether it be hk or lwrc. just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter.
its plain and simple... if i can get my hands on what the best want, im a happy man.
Jay Cunningham
09-27-09, 12:25
i own both di and piston guns. the di's are colt and lmt. the pistons are lwrc and pof. my favorite is the lwrc in 6.8.
most people that dont like the piston guns have never ran one. if they dont own one then they hate on them.
my lwrc shoots sub moa all day long. my colt (6940)is right around 2 moa. neither one has had a hiccup yet.
there is a reason why companies are going to piston. its a better system. its bad when you have people say "you aint using a sbr or suppressor, so you dont need one" as there only excuse.
when people are given the option on which system they can receive, they go piston. whether it be hk or lwrc. just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter.
its plain and simple... if i can get my hands on what the best want, im a happy man.
rightwingmaniac,
Your statements do not hold water.
At M4C we have (among several) the following rule:
In order to maintain a site that is an effective database of good information, it is best to post information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you are repeating information that you have been told or have read from another poster, it is best to disclose that in the opening of the post.
As such, when a Staff member, Moderator, Industry Professional or Subject Matter Expert decides to comment here, it is always in keeping with the above rule. All other members are expected to post according to this rule as well.
Since you made the statement "just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter" I would have to ask you how many of these individuals have you had conversations with about the topic being discussed in this thread?
Stop me if I'm out of line, or misinformed, but I was under the impression that one of the benefits of a piston-system was increased bolt life.
:confused:
This is false.
In a DI gun, the gas is pushing the bolt foward to keep it locked and this also releaves pressure on the locking lugs.
On a piston AR15, the lugs take the full load of the chamber pressure and the unlocking of the action.
i own both di and piston guns. the di's are colt and lmt. the pistons are lwrc and pof. my favorite is the lwrc in 6.8.
most people that dont like the piston guns have never ran one. if they dont own one then they hate on them.
True, some people might not have any experience with piston guns, but that ain't me. ;)
I have experience with the following:
POF
LWRC (old LW version as well)
HK 416 14.5 and 10.5 (suppressed and un-suppressed).
Magpul Engineering drops
PWS
Adams Arms
my lwrc shoots sub moa all day long. my colt (6940)is right around 2 moa. neither one has had a hiccup yet.
That maybe the case, but that is not the norm. Or if it is the norm, it is because the LWRC (or any piston gun) is heavier to give the barrel more rigidity.
there is a reason why companies are going to piston. its a better system. its bad when you have people say "you aint using a sbr or suppressor, so you dont need one" as there only excuse.
Yes, it is called market trend. This is also why 80% of the AR is filled with Chinese junk (as most AR buyers want their AR to "look" a certain way, but don't want to pay for quality.
The person that made the comment as to why one would need a piston AR is one of the main guys in the development of the 416. His name is Larry Vickers and have forgotten more about weapons than you will ever know.
when people are given the option on which system they can receive, they go piston. whether it be hk or lwrc. just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter.
Really?? I can have ANY piston I want. I own none of them. Trigger pullers (that have a clue) want a piston system that was built and designed from the ground up (not one that was shoe horned into another system). This is where the SCAR comes in.
The HK 416 (cadillac of all the piston guns) is seeing failures in the field. HK orig. quoted that the bolt would live for 20,000rds. This just is not happening.
its plain and simple... if i can get my hands on what the best want, im a happy man.
What is clear is that you really do not fully understand what you are talking about. If you like your piston guns, great for you! Just don't try and blow sunshine up our skirts when we know better.
C4
rightwingmaniac
09-28-09, 21:29
rightwingmaniac,
Your statements do not hold water.
At M4C we have (among several) the following rule:
In order to maintain a site that is an effective database of good information, it is best to post information that you have first hand knowledge of. If you are repeating information that you have been told or have read from another poster, it is best to disclose that in the opening of the post.
As such, when a Staff member, Moderator, Industry Professional or Subject Matter Expert decides to comment here, it is always in keeping with the above rule. All other members are expected to post according to this rule as well.
Since you made the statement "just ask any special forces operator or dea agent for that matter" I would have to ask you how many of these individuals have you had conversations with about the topic being discussed in this thread?
listen bud, its clear your letting your individual bias towards piston guns get in the way of your judgement. my statement doesnt hold any water because " i didnt disclose that i was an ex special forces operator or i tag along with my brother to the range with all his dea buddies is comical at best". its all first hand knowledge here. sorry to burst your bubble. and no, im not gonna drop names!!! these people want and deserve their privacy.
oh and cigrant, you dont know me or what ive been thru. im not claiming to be the equivalent to larry vickers. get over it. you can keep your snotty little posts to yourself.
i feel like the "top guns" on this site are anti piston. i dont want to get into a pissing contest, but im comfortable saying that i have more first hand knowledge in this area than most of the "top guns" here on this website. some of you should take note instead of flapping your gums.
rightwingmaniac
09-28-09, 21:35
heres a pic of my lwrc, please dont ban me over your hate of pistons!!
Don Robison
09-28-09, 21:49
Wow, this one really turned into a http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/barebear.gif contest
listen bud, its clear your letting your individual bias towards piston guns get in the way of your judgement. my statement doesnt hold any water because " i didnt disclose that i was an ex special forces operator or i tag along with my brother to the range with all his dea buddies is comical at best". its all first hand knowledge here. sorry to burst your bubble. and no, im not gonna drop names!!! these people want and deserve their privacy.
oh and cigrant, you dont know me or what ive been thru. im not claiming to be the equivalent to larry vickers. get over it. you can keep your snotty little posts to yourself.
i feel like the "top guns" on this site are anti piston. i dont want to get into a pissing contest, but im comfortable saying that i have more first hand knowledge in this area than most of the "top guns" here on this website. some of you should take note instead of flapping your gums.
Where to begin. First, at least learn how to spell my name if your going to try and call me out.
Your not equal to Vickers?? Really?
Most SF guys don't know jack shit about guns and the DEA knows even less. Ever heard of RRA? Ya, I want them picking a gun for me.
I will humor you a little though, when you were in, which piston weapon were you issued???
I have no idea why you would believe that you know more about AR's (especially piston flavored ones) than other people on here.
Do I like pistons in guns? Sure do. Do I like pistons retro-fitted into a DI AR's? No.
C4
John_Wayne777
09-28-09, 22:17
i feel like the "top guns" on this site are anti piston. i dont want to get into a pissing contest, but im comfortable saying that i have more first hand knowledge in this area than most of the "top guns" here on this website. some of you should take note instead of flapping your gums.
Take a long hard look at the qualifications of our SME's as well as the other rules of the site...including the one about how you have a conversation with moderators and members of staff.
variablebinary
09-28-09, 22:21
Wow, this one really turned into a http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/barebear.gif contest
LOL WIN!
You made my night
rightwingmaniac
09-28-09, 22:21
i hope i didnt hurt your feelings when i didnt take the time to correctly spell your name. i did my service and im done. vickers is like the energizer bunny, he keeps going and going. i dont have a chip on my shoulder, i can admit when someone else has more knowledge than me. maybe you should too.
maybe you should take katars advice and disclose the special forces and dea agents "YOU" have had individual conversations with. just for your info, id take my opinion and the opinion of these folks over yours. i know them personally. what makes you more qualified than us? your numerous posts on a website? not likely!!!!
as for the statement that sf and dea dont know shit about guns is just another example of you spouting off at the lip. i look forward to an apology. i think we deserve one.
i am stating "MY" opinion about "MY" experiences and the experiences of other people who are still in the field.
rightwingmaniac
09-28-09, 22:25
Take a long hard look at the qualifications of our SME's as well as the other rules of the site...including the one about how you have a conversation with moderators and members of staff.
i apologize for my part. i got carried away. when you get home from a 12 hour shift and find b.s. emails about your qualifications it can be hard to hold back.
John_Wayne777
09-28-09, 22:27
To prevent a further slide into absurdity I'm locking this one for the time being.
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