Titan Defense TD-415 (HK416 clone) Gas piston upper preview (Pics inside)

[variablebinary]

Titan Defense is putting the finishing touches on their sorta HK416-ish clone, the TD-415 gas piston upper. I got to shoot a prototype that was 6000 rounds deep without a cleaning

First, they wanted to make it clear they are a independently owned and financed company. They are not a subsidiary of any other company, Todd Baily or anyone else. This is NOT a Todd Baily product.

They only manufacture upper receivers and are licensing the technology to organizations that want to manufacture complete firearms. They are negotiating with several companies, each of which will have their own logo etched on the upper

Now on to the upper. Since I own an LWRC M6A1, I will use it as a point of reference.

I got to fire the 14.5" SS, HBAR model, The barrel had an M4 notch and PWS muzzle device. It was slightly nose heavy, but felt rock solid. No rattles or loose feeling tolerances. The barrel will accept any AR15 muzzle device

The piston was a beefy unit, interfacing a long, thick single piece oprod design. Unlike the LWRC, the handguard was easy to remove, and the piston assembly was much simpler to take down. There are also fewer parts in the TD-415 design. The TD415 is self regulating, venting excess gas when the weapon cycles. The piston head lacks gas rings, making it simpler and easier to manufacture compared to the HK416

In terms of HK 416 compatibility, it will accept a 416 piston rod, and BCG. It's a single piece carrier, and nickle plated as is the bolt. The firing pin has a return spring, like the 416. The carrier does not feature notch/tab on the rear of the carrier key. The ejector is AR15 compatible.

The bolt with be shot peened, MPI, magnafluxed, yadda yadda, which should make the chart junkies happy

Nearly everything steel in the upper was nitride treated, making the components have incredible durability and virtually impervious to corrosion.

I fired the upper on full auto and semi. The recoil has a hard push back, as opposed to an LWRC jolt, but it wasn't harsh, even on full-auto. The action was clean enough to eat off of, and there was no significant heat transfer to speak of. There were zero failures with PMAG's and USGI mags

Overall, I was impressed. It was a good looking gun due to the distinct HK416 profile. I might sell my M6A1 to fund a TD415 purchase once the 10.5" units are ready

On to the crappy cell phone pics


http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4167.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4166.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4165.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4164.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4163.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4162.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/TD4161.jpg

[SRT-M4]

Thanks for the Post variablebinary.

I have been in contact with Josh. He is very polite and very professional.
He has my number and will notify me as soon as they become available.

I think that although a clone to the HK 416 , this weapon will prove to be robust and reliable. It appears to be very well made.
I like the bolt and carrier assembly. No rings on this bolt and the spring on the firing pin is a nice touch.

I cant wait to get my hands on the TD 415 to compare it to my 3 LWRC's.

Thanks for the pics and info

[variablebinary]

Thanks for the Post variablebinary.

I have been in contact with Josh. He is very polite and very professional.
He has my number and will notify me as soon as they become available.

I think that although a clone to the HK 416 , this weapon will prove to be robust and reliable. It appears to be very well made.
I like the bolt and carrier assembly. No rings on this bolt and the spring on the firing pin is a nice touch.

I cant wait to get my hands on the TD 415 to compare it to my 3 LWRC's.

Thanks for the pics and info

The Titan guys are very cool, and easy to talk to. They are very eager to answer questions too.

Interacting with them was a 100% positive experience.

[SRT-M4]

Once people get over the critisizm of it being a HK 416 clone, I think that this weapon will become very popular.

Hell ,from what I can see, they may have improved on the Hk 416 and its American Made.

I think the staff at Titan Defense will win a lot of people over with the way they seem to do business.

Josh even called me out of the blue to give me an update on the progress of the upper.
He also responds to all fo my annoying emails.

I love my LWRCs and will find it hard to find something better but the TD 415 looks good.

[BAC]

That's a tall rail. Would I be correct in assuming it's the same height as the H&K 416 rail?

Comment/Observation aside, that's a very nice looking gun from an outfit I keep hearing good things about. Will the TD-415 will be more reasonably priced than its Germanic cousin?


-B

[variablebinary]

That's a tall rail. Would I be correct in assuming it's the same height as the H&K 416 rail?

Comment/Observation aside, that's a very nice looking gun from an outfit I keep hearing good things about. Will the TD-415 will be more reasonably priced than its Germanic cousin?


-B

The rail height is like the HK416, and the upper is like $1250 making it super affordable. compared to the $5000 HK416 upper

Here's an actual HK416 piston/BCG photo so people can see the similarities

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/clt2/huge/DSCN2458.jpg

And the HK MR556 which is rumored to be $3500 when it goes for sale in 2010. Notice the rail height

http://hk-usa.com/-images/products/mr556/mr556_lg_2.jpg

[SRT-M4]

Great pics variablebinary. $1250 isnt bad at all.

Why do so many people not like the taller rail height?

I understand getting your optics as close to the centerline of the barrel but .250 or so should actually help with comfort while looking through your glass.

[Celt]

The rail height is like the HK416, and the upper is like $1250 making it super affordable. compared to the $5000 HK416 upper

Here's an actual HK416 piston/BCG photo so people can see the similarities

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/clt2/huge/DSCN2458.jpg

And the HK MR556 which is rumored to be $3500 when it goes for sale in 2010. Notice the rail height

http://hk-usa.com/-images/products/mr556/mr556_lg_2.jpg


What's up w/the rail height? Can't see any diff.

[Spooky130]

I wonder if there will be any legal actions from HK on this clone? Or if that is even a possibility?

Spooky

[variablebinary]

I wonder if there will be any legal actions from HK on this clone? Or if that is even a possibility?

Spooky

Who knows. Who hasn't HK sued lately. They have even gone after airsoft guns.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I follow such things, but I think HK is in for a rocky road if this is their solution for handling the competition.

The irony is Colt sued HK for trade dress and failed, and AFAIK, HK hasnt managed to shut anyone down with similar suits

[variablebinary]

Here are the HK 416 gas rings I spoke about on the piston head which are not present on the Titan Defense TD-415

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a86/Scharfshutzen/DSC_0059_edited.jpg

And the firing pin safety notch also NOT present on the Titan defense model

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a86/Scharfshutzen/HKBCG_04.jpg

[QuickStrike]

Very interesting...

I will be watching how it does, once it gets around a bit.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the write up!

[M4arc]

That's pretty cool and I'd definitely be interested in one of these uppers. Thanks for the write up VB.

[No Bananas]

And the HK MR556 which is rumored to be $3500 when it goes for sale in 2010. Notice the rail height

And I doubt (very seriously doubt) that HK will be selling an upper (or complete rifle) in 10.5" or 14.5" bbl. lengths.

My biggest question would be how heavy is the TD upper?

It looks pretty cool and I'm very interested to see more info, tests, etc. on it. If you haven't had any issues with your LWRC, I don't know that I'd be in a hurry to sell it. Thanks for the great post and the pics.

[HPLLC]

To be honest shouldn't HK sue?

They designed and built a gun, and someone basically in large part copied it? Now if they had any patents, it would make really good sense to sue. When patents are concerned, especially on items that people largely believe are superior, that's sort of the proper thing to do in the interest of protected intellectual property.

It looks like a good gun, you mention stiffer recoil impulse, and I heard in the other thread that the rail height is .065" taller than the already tall 416, so with those in mind, why would you be interested in swapping your LWRC for it?

The LWRC guns, from the opinions of people I know who have them, seem to have very high regard.

[HPLLC]

Two more questions- did that work with your standard AR lower?

I heard 416's are not compatible with some trigger systems that work with std AR platforms.

Are they going to sell the upper alone as a bolt on to a customer's existing lower?

[eternal24k]

this is the first i am learning about this, very cool

[stony275]

Any plans to come out with this in 6.8 SPC?

[SRT-M4]

I myself will probably never part with my LWRC's. To me they are about as good as an AR can get. 0 complaints out of them.

Im just looking at this TD 415 and think that its a good alternative to the HK 416. I will base how much I like it after shooting it.

Maybe its a novelty thing but I got to have one the TD 415's.

The guys over there at Titan Dense seem to have their shit together.

[variablebinary]

Any plans to come out with this in 6.8 SPC?


Yes. I saw their packaging and there are plans for additional calibers

And as for my LWRC, it was getting sold anyway. Only I was planning on replacing it with an M6A2. However, I admit to finding the Titan Defense product more interesting, and aesthetically, I've always liked the way the HK416 looks

I don't need a closet full of dissimilar AR15 piston formats, and I'm willing to give Titan a chance.

Their gun shot really well too. Like I said, I was impressed.

[uspopo]

VB, thanks for the write up and review. I for one am very interested in this upper but will wait on to see how Titan will measure up in providing adequate customer support for their product (service, warranty, repair and spare parts availability etc.) before dropping my coin on their upper..:cool:

[NSR500]

What's pricing going to look like?

LWRC & HK are at the upper end of the spectrum and then you have CMMG with a sub-$1000 piston gun. Where do these guys plan to fit themselves in?

[variablebinary]

What's pricing going to look like?

LWRC & HK are at the upper end of the spectrum and then you have CMMG with a sub-$1000 piston gun. Where do these guys plan to fit themselves in?

$1250 for the upper alone, which makes it mid pack in terms of pricing, and far south of the comparably equipped LWRC 10.5" M6A2 which clocks in at $1800

[Littlelebowski]

First, they wanted to make it clear they are a independently owned and financed company. They are not a subsidiary of any other company, Todd Baily or anyone else. This is NOT a Todd Baily product.


You sure about that? Check this out (http://www.hk-54.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1593).

[Thomas M-4]

You sure about that? Check this out (http://www.hk-54.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1593).

Good post.

[Littlelebowski]

Todd Bailey's English is so awful, it's hard to figure out what he's saying but read this (http://www.hk-54.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1557&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

Some high comedy there. Example of Todd's posts, bold added by me.


As for the rest of the issues

Life of barrel CA415 blows away Hk416
Requiring Lube CA415 NONE hk 416 bring an quart or two you need it
Cleaning CA415 NONE, maybe a wipe down every 10K if you like Hk416 get a grinder to chip the carbon off the piston!!!
reliability CA415 has NO piston rings Hk416 piston rings fail all the time!!!
Accuracy CA415 button rifled and precision drilled for the best std barrel on the market!!!! Our std barrels compare to bushmasters sniper barrels!!!!
Increased features CA415 std with single stage 3.5 lb trigger Hk 416 std mess military trigger
Internals spring MOST on CA415 Stainless steel Hk 416 carbon steel going to rust and fail!!!

Finally fit up the uppers and lowers are machined at the same location so unlike other manufactures(most of them) where the upper is made one place and the lower another ours are made at the same place at the same time!!!!! Best possible fit up

You will not find a better setup and Like all other CA products if we can improve we WILL

We are also planning a big roll out of tech data on our guns Vs competitors product that you all will be blown away by and we will offer the competitors the chance to prove us wrong!!!!

[Littlelebowski]

And it's up on the Coharie Arms website (http://www.coharie-arms.com/ca415.html).

[YVK]

Todd Bailey's English is so awful, it's hard to figure out what he's saying but read this (http://www.hk-54.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1557&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0).

Some high comedy there. Example of Todd's posts, bold added by me.

The effect of such nonsense is a reverse advertising. His stuff is so ridiculous it turns you off the product.

[NSR500]

$1250 for the upper alone, which makes it mid pack in terms of pricing, and far south of the comparably equipped LWRC 10.5" M6A2 which clocks in at $1800

Thanks!

I'm willing to give one of these a shot even if there is a possibility that it is from Todd. I have a 1st run SW3 that runs like a champ with build quality that rivals a PTR91. I also have a Coharie MP5 .40 clone that runs like a Rolex, so I'll give the Titan a shot.

[DocHolliday01]

$1250 for the upper alone, which makes it mid pack in terms of pricing, and far south of the comparably equipped LWRC 10.5" M6A2 which clocks in at $1800

VB - did this upper come with any sights, rail panels or any other accessories?

[HPLLC]

$1250 is damn good, are they planning a 10.5" barrel version?

[SRT-M4]

The TD 415 does not come with sights. They are available but are extra. They are also the proper height for the raised HK 416 rail height.

Other than the buffer and recoil spring ( which are designed for this piston upper ), nothing else comes with it.
That being said this is still a great price if it turns out to be as good as it looks.

I would love to know when they will start shipping!!!!!!:confused:

[variablebinary]

$1250 is damn good, are they planning a 10.5" barrel version?


Looks like it. If I buy any version it will be the 10.5"

I especially dig the stubby troy sights, which would be out-freaking-standing on my Robarm XCR

http://www.titandefense.com/td415uppers.jpg

http://www.titandefense.com/images/IMG_8562.jpg

[ss568]

Thought I had my mind made up on a POF 415 P9SX upper, now I'm not so sure. The TD-415 is very tempting and alittle cheaper then POF. Whats the barrel specs on the TD-415, POF uses 4150 MIL-B-11595 Vanadium alloy (whatever that is) and claims to be 2 times harder then Mil-Spec and Hammer Forged. What is Titan Defense using for barrels? Any info wound be great. Have to place an order soon before the wife finds the money i have stashed...LOL.:D

[SRT-M4]

Thought I had my mind made up on a POF 415 P9SX upper, now I'm not so sure. The TD-415 is very tempting and alittle cheaper then POF. Whats the barrel specs on the TD-415, POF uses 4150 MIL-B-11595 Vanadium alloy (whatever that is) and claims to be 2 times harder then Mil-Spec and Hammer Forged. What is Titan Defense using for barrels? Any info wound be great. Have to place an order soon before the wife finds the money i have stashed...LOL.:D

I beleive that Titans barrels are 416 Stainless Steel.

The barrels appear to beefy just like HK's under the handguards.

[HPLLC]

I beleive that Titans barrels are 416 Stainless Steel.

The barrels appear to beefy just like HK's under the handguards.

I thought initially they would be hammer forged but you're right 416 stainless steel.

The promise of good accuracy and longevity according to Todd on another forum I got a link to from a friend (can't recall). I think the accuracy is obvious, if the life is better than, or as good as, hammer forged/chrome lined that will be a great barrel.

[variablebinary]

I thought initially they would be hammer forged but you're right 416 stainless steel.

The promise of good accuracy and longevity according to Todd on another forum I got a link to from a friend (can't recall). I think the accuracy is obvious, if the life is better than, or as good as, hammer forged/chrome lined that will be a great barrel.

A nitride treated 416 barrel should be incredibly durable and accurate.

Because nitride increases surface hardness, it should make even 416 impervious to corrosion, and wear much better than chrome plating.

I'd rather see more companies offering nitride treated barrels than jumping on the cold hammer forged bandwagon

Obviously, no one will really know what these guns are capable of until they are in circulation and pushed hard

[SRT-M4]

Man, I wish that they would release these uppers.

Im ready to try it out.

[ramrod]

Im not impressed, you wanna improve on the hk416 get rid of that charging handle. make it ambi on the upper rail or something.

[scottryan]

Someone else can be the guinea pig on this one.

Lets get out of the delusion and get back to reality, people.

Look at all these issues associated with this:

1. This product is a clone which means it is probably reverse engineered.

2. How did this get around the intellectual property rights of HK. Patents expire after 11 years. The HK416 hasn't been out this long.

3. Todd Bailey is connected to this.

4. It already has deviation in the components and materials from a real HK416.

[The Rat]

I'm curious enough that I'll withhold judgment until it gets some real hard-use tests done on it.

[MajorAR]

Anything new on this? Anyone got theirs yet?

[ralph]

This might be something to keep an eye on..It looks to be well made with excellant materials, I'm just uneasy about T.B. having anything to do with it.. But, we'll see. It does look promising......

[Voodoochild]

It has my interest peaked but I will be interested in seeing how these perform and how well they hold up before I drop any money.

[Rogue7a]

I have 3k plus through this one with cleaning every 310 rounds with NO issues

[Littlelebowski]

I have 3k plus through this one with cleaning every 310 rounds with NO issues

Why do you clean it so much?

[Rogue7a]

Why do you clean it so much?

It's called a
Firing schedule.

Give me 3 beta mags and I can destroy anything in the realm of accuracy or function after dumping that amount cyclic.

All firing was done suppressed for the first 1100 rounds at the rapid rate with NO failures.

Aside from the ejection port cover, have had NO issues

When was the kast time you were in a gunfight that exceeded 12 mags hmmm?

[Littlelebowski]

It's a simple and honest question, asked without rancor, Rogue7a.

[Rogue7a]

It's a simple and honest question, asked without rancor, Rogue7a.


Sorry, have not posted in a while and just waiting for the posers to pop up

[montrala]

Good comments from scottryan. As to patent things - european companies do not patent everything, becouse patent offices do not patent obvious or something that is generally used for some time and not patent protected (Outside US you in most countries can not patent gereal concepts or ideas, that's why lot of US patents do not work outside US). What could actually HK patent with 416? "M4 that actually works all the time"? Too general. Something specific? They mainly improoved existing design by adding good touch of engineering here and there, some better materials, some modern production processes. Gas system? It's over 70 years old. Quad rail - industry standard. Receiver-rail interlocking/positioning. Come on, aligning parts by matching concave and convex parts is like houdred years old concept. Enlarged magwell? Patent look and shape? They are not Magpul ;). They just took M4 - checked what is wrong with it, added some customer requirements and cured problems using known ideas and technologies. Exactly what they were supposed to do, when SFOD-D contacted them.


As to TD-415 specifically, adding mine 0.03PLN from far away:

No matter how closely copied - it still is not HK. Mr Bailey can shout that he improoves over HK. I'm affraid, that his improovements are in fact shortcuts, when "copier" is unable to follow HK manufacturing standards and make result working. For me looks like exactly all of "improovements" are just excuses . Most funny is comment on "improoved piston" becouse "HK piston fails all the time". Sorry, we have 416s and G36s deployed by elite LE/MIL units here and in sandbox and pistons are not failing at all. Also German and Spanish armies seem not too have problem with G36. 416 piston is exactly same part as used in G36, they are interchangeable.

Actually when unit or user buys HK, one not only buys (even if does not realize that) "design and patents" (HK does not patent everything they make, unlike US companies) - they buy HK engineering in production process, materials used by HK and technlogies/processes used - remember that HK is also manufacturer of top of the line CNC machines. That's why upgrading/overhauling of british SA80 or L7 (M240 aka MAG 58 aka FN MAG) is taking place at HK factory. I can belive that company such as Benelli can produce shotgun that was designed for them by HK and it works good (Benelli M1), but I don't trust "any random company" is capable of same manufacturing standards just by reverse engineering HK product.

Several years ago polish Police main counter-terrorism unit learned this hard way (lost lives) when, to save some money, they where equipped with clones of MP5s instead of HK made original. Finally, in crisis mode, this units where equipped with HK G36 (C, K and regular) and now they get 416s "no questions ask".

BTW Comments regarding TD-415 to be more faithfull to original AK design proofs that Mr Bailey have even problem with basic firearms design history and actuall technical differences of designs. Gas system used on 416 (and G36 and some other designs from different manufacturers) is actually based on G.43 (Gewehr 43) that was inspired by SVT-38 - rifle designed by Tokariev and produced before WWII, and way before Mr. Kalashnikov started to dream about designing AK.

[500grains]

It is funny that people would complain the rail is too high when others are spending $125 to get a Larue 5/8" riser under their optic.

[Magpuller]

To me its just another piston gun. I would never buy copy/replica gun. I don't think these will do to well. The majority of people that I see buying them are guys that don't know to much about ar's and they just think the hk416 is the coolest most bad ass ar you can buy so they will get it just for the cool/show off factor. I think the lwrc's are great piston guns and have a nice track record. If I was to have a lwrc and one of these to choose for free I would no doubt pick the lwrc. By the list of things about how great this rifle is the military should drop every m4 and m16 and get this. This companys ad makes this rifle the best ever made. This rifle should put every competitor out of business. Might as well stop making the 416 cause this is FAR superior to the hk416. I just don't like when companys say how much better their product is than all others and make it out to be the best ever made.

[Iraqgunz]

It's funny you mention LWRC. I just heard from one of our local Class III dealers that a local security company here that was using LWRC guns got rid of them due to problems they were having.

I don't think there are enough of them or this TD 415 in circulation to make any real judgements.


To me its just another piston gun. I would never buy copy/replica gun. I don't think these will do to well. The majority of people that I see buying them are guys that don't know to much about ar's and they just think the hk416 is the coolest most bad ass ar you can buy so they will get it just for the cool/show off factor. I think the lwrc's are great piston guns and have a nice track record. If I was to have a lwrc and one of these to choose for free I would no doubt pick the lwrc. By the list of things about how great this rifle is the military should drop every m4 and m16 and get this. This companys ad makes this rifle the best ever made. This rifle should put every competitor out of business. Might as well stop making the 416 cause this is FAR superior to the hk416. I just don't like when companys say how much better their product is than all others and make it out to be the best ever made.

[Abraxas]

Good comments from scottryan. As to patent things - european companies do not patent everything, becouse patent offices do not patent obvious or something that is generally used for some time and not patent protected (Outside US you in most countries can not patent gereal concepts or ideas, that's why lot of US patents do not work outside US). What could actually HK patent with 416? "M4 that actually works all the time"? Too general. Something specific? They mainly improoved existing design by adding good touch of engineering here and there, some better materials, some modern production processes. Gas system? It's over 70 years old. Quad rail - industry standard. Receiver-rail interlocking/positioning. Come on, aligning parts by matching concave and convex parts is like houdred years old concept. Enlarged magwell? Patent look and shape? They are not Magpul ;). They just took M4 - checked what is wrong with it, added some customer requirements and cured problems using known ideas and technologies. Exactly what they were supposed to do, when SFOD-D contacted them.


As to TD-415 specifically, adding mine 0.03PLN from far away:

No matter how closely copied - it still is not HK. Mr Bailey can shout that he improoves over HK. I'm affraid, that his improovements are in fact shortcuts, when "copier" is unable to follow HK manufacturing standards and make result working. For me looks like exactly all of "improovements" are just excuses . Most funny is comment on "improoved piston" becouse "HK piston fails all the time". Sorry, we have 416s and G36s deployed by elite LE/MIL units here and in sandbox and pistons are not failing at all. Also German and Spanish armies seem not too have problem with G36. 416 piston is exactly same part as used in G36, they are interchangeable.

Actually when unit or user buys HK, one not only buys (even if does not realize that) "design and patents" (HK does not patent everything they make, unlike US companies) - they buy HK engineering in production process, materials used by HK and technlogies/processes used - remember that HK is also manufacturer of top of the line CNC machines. That's why upgrading/overhauling of british SA80 or L7 (M240 aka MAG 58 aka FN MAG) is taking place at HK factory. I can belive that company such as Benelli can produce shotgun that was designed for them by HK and it works good (Benelli M1), but I don't trust "any random company" is capable of same manufacturing standards just by reverse engineering HK product.

Several years ago polish Police main counter-terrorism unit learned this hard way (lost lives) when, to save some money, they where equipped with clones of MP5s instead of HK made original. Finally, in crisis mode, this units where equipped with HK G36 (C, K and regular) and now they get 416s "no questions ask".

BTW Comments regarding TD-415 to be more faithfull to original AK design proofs that Mr Bailey have even problem with basic firearms design history and actuall technical differences of designs. Gas system used on 416 (and G36 and some other designs from different manufacturers) is actually based on G.43 (Gewehr 43) that was inspired by SVT-38 - rifle designed by Tokariev and produced before WWII, and way before Mr. Kalashnikov started to dream about designing AK.

Good post. I had no idea that European patents worked so differently to our own. But then I don't know too much about our own patent system

[Entropy]

Given how problematic making a piston AR seems to be, I would be more cautious in which one you choose to purchase. At this time, it seems that the HK rifle has proven itself as probably the best design on the market. This is probably due to the combination of factors such as design, materials, and quality control that HK utilizes. Anything less may not be in the same league.

I'm sure that the TD upper is a quality design, but it just hasn't developed the track record to compare it to HK. If I were to dish out the money for a piston rifle......it would be HK.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I'd like a 416 upper, but I think I'd stick to my LWRCi M6A3. It's not had any problems.

[variablebinary]

The website is gone too...hmm

[organdonor]

The website is gone too...hmmThe post I made in this thread about TD settling with HK and sipping mai tais on a beach somewhere has been deleted...hmm

[Moltke]

What's the verdict on this rifle?

Who's got it?

Who's shot it?

How's it do?

[E-man930]

There is no verdict worth giving - it was nothing more than a copy... but you can by the parts they made here ==> http://black-market-parts.3dcartstores.com/416-Parts_c_13.html

[sinlessorrow]

There is no verdict worth giving - it was nothing more than a copy... but you can by the parts they made here ==> http://black-market-parts.3dcartstores.com/416-Parts_c_13.html

so i take it they went under?

[armakraut]

HK did to it what Colt did to the "HKM4."

[Rogue7a]

THE VIEWS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THE PROCEEDING ARE SOLELY THAT OF THE AUTHOR'S AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE VIEWS OR OPINIONS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, ANY US GOVERNMENT ENTITY OR SPECIAL WEAPONS INC.

CA-415 14.5" Upper Receiver Evaluation

Background
I purchased a 14.5" CA-415 Upper Receiver from Special Weapons Inc. in 2010 in order to obtain a more reliable system than the fielded M4 Upper. The purchase was directly related to Heckler and Koch policies coupled with importation bans which made it impossible for units or individuals to procure the HK 416 uppers. In addition, aside from some specific units, the US Army had "recovered" entire unit procured HK 416 Uppers because they had not undergone "official" Department of Defense (DoD) First Article Testing (FAT) when mated with the M4 Lower. In addition, the predominant use of suppressors, their effect on Direct Impingement (DI) uppers, environmental factors (dust, etc.), coupled with past combat experience and the fact that the Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) had not yet been fielded, this upper filled (In my opinion) a capability gap by providing a system based on a proven platform.

Initial Impressions
Upon receiving the upper I inspected it for fit and finish. The upper kit consisted of an upper receiver complete with charging handle, bolt group, 9" hand guard, buffer, buffer spring and Troy Industries Flip Up Front and Rear Sights. There were no issues with the overall fit of the components sans two minor items. The Mako Polymer Ejection Port Cover would not positively engage in the closed position. I spoke to Special Weapons about this and was informed me that it could be adjusted. This was easily accomplished by the unit armorer. The second was the barrel coating which was akin to a "Cerakote" finish. While the finish was durable, it slightly increased the overall diameter of the barrel which required heating of the suppressor centering collar in order to properly seat it. None of these deficiencies were considered major detractors.

Compatibility
The upper receiver, buffer and buffer spring mated positively with the M4 lower and demonstrated no perceivable "rattle" or "shifting". In addition, the upper was checked for compatibility and test fired with the following HK 416 components: Hand Guard, Bolt Group, Gas Piston, Piston Rod, and gas block mounted flip up front sight during which no issues were encountered. It should be noted that unlike the piston on the HK 416, the Special Weapon's piston is a "ring-less" design akin to that found on AK and Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FNH) machine guns. In my opinion, this removes a point of failure and inspection. Note: Due to a slight difference between the CA-415 bolt group and HK-416 bolt group, individual parts were not interchanged between these two assemblies.

Configuration
The upper was configured with the following Special Operations Peculiar MODification (SOPMOD) components: Elcan SpecterDR (SU-230/PVS), Insight AN/PEQ-15 and Insight M3X. The provided Troy Industries Flip Up Front and Rear Sights were utilized and an OPS INC 15th Model CQB MBS with M-16/M4 Style Flash Hider were utilized for sound suppression.

Reliability
Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): Because the upper was intended as a "deployment" platform, it was not subjected to "Destruction Testing" and was used in normal training with complete cleaning after every evolution (250 to 500 rounds). Ammo utilized consisted exclusively of M855, M855A1, MK262 MOD 0 & MOD 1. In addition, I kept no record of suppressed, unsuppressed, semi or full auto firing schedules or range temperatures due to its competing interest with training and operations.
After firing approximately 6,500 rounds through the system, I experienced three (3) failures. One stoppage was attributed to a weak magazine spring coupled with increased bolt velocity that resulted in a failure to feed during suppressed full auto fire. This issue has also been experienced with the HK 416 and was the prime driver of "suppressed" and "unsuppressed' gas selection. The cause of the remaining two (2) failures is unknown and may be ammo related. Regardless, the Mean Rounds Between Stoppages (MRBS) / Mean Rounds Between Failures (MRBF) was approximately 2,166 rounds during my experience with the system. If the magazine issue was treated as an outlier, the reliability increased to 3,250 MRBS/MRBF. Inspection of the system's components revealed no excessive wear. Note: Special Weapons subjected uppers to more "aggressive" (approximately 90,000 rounds) firing schedules by providing them as full auto rental guns to "The Gun Store" in Las Vegas, NV. Although information regarding long term performance and component durability can be gleaned from this evolution it is not available to me.

Accuracy
BLUF: Accuracy evaluation was performed under "Field" conditions ranging from 25 meter "Battle Sight Zero" (BZO), 100 meter, 200 meter and 300 meter known distance B Modified Targets as well as the standard US Army rifle qualification course.
Using the aforementioned ammunition, the system performed on par with the standard M4 with group sizes ranging from 2 - 3 Minute of Angle (MOA). While suppressed and firing from the supported (sand bag) prone, I was able to achieve 1.35 MOA groups utilizing MK262 Ammo.

Recommendations
Barrel Options and finish: It would be preferable if the end user could select a different barrel and weights. In my opinion, I would prefer a PAC-NOR Polygonal barrel. In addition, I would recommend a MIL-SPEC finish akin to that on the M4's barrel. Regardless, this is just a personal preference and not a detractor of the performance of the system.
Firing Rate: Due to the velocities encountered during suppressed firing, I would suggest a "Suppressed/Unsuppressed" user selectable setting or incorporating a rate reduction system into the bolt carrier akin to the FERFRANS system. However, with the availability of "Zero Backpressure" suppressors like the OSS system, this may be a nonissue.
Over The Beach (OTB) Performance: Per the SCAR Performance Requirement paragraph 3.2.4.3 (Over The Beach Capability), it would be an added value to determine the system's ability to meet this requirement. While this is not a competing interest, it would serve to further demonstrate its capability with like systems.

Summary
I found the system to be a capable and provide the end user a more reliable platform in arduous environments especially if suppressed when compared to the legacy system. Although the system has not undergone official DoD FAT, it is based off a proven system coupled with comparable industry manufacturing standards and methods and incorporates improvements. This coupled with the cost and performance of the system places it ahead of all other systems available to civilian shooters, law enforcement and entities that require an accurate and reliable firearm. The system has demonstrated its ability to delivery reliable performance and accuracy in field environments and combat deployments.

[Rogue7a]

Sorry if I'm dredging up an old topic. I thought someone may appreciate an end user perspective of this upper

[eternal24k]

Sorry if I'm dredging up an old topic. I thought someone may appreciate an end user perspective of this upper

you should be sorry for reminding me why i wish i ordered one while they were clearing them out

[Rogue7a]

you should be sorry for reminding me why i wish i ordered one while they were clearing them out
Not to get spun up like everyone did over the Vltor Fortis aka "Bren Ten" which became as we all know "vapor ware".

However, I have heard that there may be something coming this February-April timeframe. I'm really hoping so, because USASFC took away the MK-16s and there's no way Group is gonna purchase 416 uppers.