View Full Version : ACOGs in carbine classes
How often do shooters use ACOGs in your class? I have a TA31F on my rifle and wanted to know how well they did in the course and your opinion on them. I mainly see Aimpoints and Eotechs in your DVDs.
Anyone who's used an ACOG in the course, please chime in. Thanks.
JeepDriver
09-27-09, 09:30
I took my TA01NSN equipped gun with me to a class (not a MagPul Class) and it was slow. I had problems finding the targets at closer ranges. When we moved out further (50 yards and out) it was perfect.
Then again, it was only 1 class, I'm sure practice with the ACOG would speed things up.
I took my TA01NSN equipped gun with me to a class (not a MagPul Class) and it was slow. I had problems finding the targets at closer ranges. When we moved out further (50 yards and out) it was perfect.
Then again, it was only 1 class, I'm sure practice with the ACOG would speed things up.
Same here. I used a TA-33. Much slower up close especially when transitioning between targets, better as the distance opened up. Running it in a class made me much more aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the optic.
Surprisingly, didn't see a single one this weekend in Magpul's Dynamic Carbine I. Probably not a good choice for this kind of course. Lots of T1's though.
Surprisingly, didn't see a single one this weekend in Magpul's Dynamic Carbine I. Probably not a good choice for this kind of course. Lots of T1's though.
Yep! The only magnified optics in the class where my TR24 and Greg's (I think) CQ/T. I never took it off 1x except when we were zeroing. For the types of shooting we were doing, I wouldn't have wanted to have it locked in at 4x. The speed deficit up close would be a bigger detriment than the precision at distance would have helped, I think.
BTW, nice meeting you Nick!
Looks like I'll have to add a red-dot to my ACOG. Any recommendations?
What about if the ACOC had a DR. Optics mounted on it or BUIS. I thought the Marines trained to use the ACOG with both eyes open.
Thomas M-4
09-27-09, 21:48
Looks like I'll have to add a red-dot to my ACOG. Any recommendations?
http://www.mattburkett.com/shop-online?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=21&category_id=3&vmcchk=1
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2-6/Jerry2-6-8L.jpg
Interesting. Anybody have experience using this set up? Close up pics of the mount itself?
Thomas M-4
09-28-09, 08:50
Interesting. Anybody have experience using this set up? Close up pics of the mount itself?
That is about has good of an Image I can find EL Mac.
Sorry I do not have any personal experience with it JMHO that it would work better than the trijicon piggy back set up.
Hey thanks!!! A much better pic than that on Matt's website.
Hey thanks!!! A much better pic than that on Matt's website.
Indeed. I was trying to figure how it mounts.
I'd like to run that set up in a class and see how it works.
Anyone use the TNVC RDP-II?
Yep! The only magnified optics in the class where my TR24 and Greg's (I think) CQ/T. I never took it off 1x except when we were zeroing. For the types of shooting we were doing, I wouldn't have wanted to have it locked in at 4x. The speed deficit up close would be a bigger detriment than the precision at distance would have helped, I think.
BTW, nice meeting you Nick!
Which reticle do you have in your TR24? How well did it perform for you with this type of shooting (e.g. support side, alternate positions, etc)?
JeepDriver
09-28-09, 20:15
Which reticle do you have in your TR24? How well did it perform for you with this type of shooting (e.g. support side, alternate positions, etc)?
Interested as well. I have a TR24 German Retical.
I was debating about using that one for part of the next class.
I just set up a back-up RDS using a Fastfire II in the Burris winged protective housing mounted in the 5 slot YHM 45 degree angle mount. I am using a Vltor EMOD and find that by canting the rifle 45 degrees I have no change in cheekweld when switching to the BU.
I just set up a back-up RDS using a Fastfire II in the Burris winged protective housing mounted in the 5 slot YHM 45 degree angle mount. I am using a Vltor EMOD and find that by canting the rifle 45 degrees I have no change in cheekweld when switching to the BU.
Pic???
I've been waiting for my primary optic to arrive so I can mount and zero it and then figure out how to upload pics so I can show my freshly painted and equiped Frankengun. In the spirit of full disclosure, my mounting idea is not original at all, I saw the same setup at militarymorons.com months ago and am just emulating their work.
Which reticle do you have in your TR24? How well did it perform for you with this type of shooting (e.g. support side, alternate positions, etc)?
Red triangle/post. I kept it at 1x, and it was mostly like a heavy-ass Aimpoint. We didn't do the support side shooting, since we lacked barricades, but I've used it for that before and didn't have a problem. Likewise no issues kneeling, prone, or in either left or right urban prone, but supine was a little harder, because the eye relief causes the black circle to close in on your field of view and make it like looking through a straw. It wasn't ideal, but neither is that position.
FWIW my TA45-2 (?) 1.5 Compact is plenty quick...and sufficient for what to me is a 200 yd. weapon. My M1A wears a 3X Compact and while good there is a big difference in the two. Magnification is a real poor second to just plain seeing.
I've never taken a class with my rifle, but from different comp's I've shot in and just general shooting at the range this works great my ACOG:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/hossb7/AR1501.jpg
I just put a flip-open scope cover on the objective of the optic.
When closed and both eyes open it acts like a red dot optic (my right eye sees the glowing chevron in the scope, my left eye the background environment/targets), when open it acts like a normal ACOG.
I had no problem getting hits on IDPA-style targets during three gun or clay pigeons anywhere from 1-30 yards.
For some time, I used a progressivemachine.net flip cover on a TA-11.
For close stuff, I shot with the cover closed (occluded mode) and for distance, shot with the cover open.
Shooting occluded was very fast on close targets, as it effectively disabled the magnification.
For targets between about 15 and 50 yds, occluded was not as accurate as I wanted, and open was not as quick as I wanted. A offset mounted RDS might have been a good solution to this problem, but I never spent the $$$ to try it.
Anyway, my above setup (occluded and open modes) worked fine until I had to go from a very bright outdoor environment into a somewhat darkened environment (entered a simulated bunker with top, front, and sides made of plywood, with some shooting ports in the front. The rear was open).
This was a stage at the 2007 Multi Gun Nationals.
What happened is that I had trouble viewing the reticle in either occluded or non-occluded mode. The overhead plywood reduced the amount of light powering the fiberoptic, and the tritium was not bright enough to do much to power the optic, and what I could see of the targets and their surroudings was very bright.
So, it really slowed me down and made it difficult to get my hits.
This was an learning point for me.
After this, it occurred to me that this might be a problem in a true darkened environment, such as going from outside to indoors in daytime, or when opertating in a darkened environment and using a white light.
What I found in the first scenario was that my eyes couldn't dark adapt quickly enough to view the reticle. Adding a white light resulted in reticle washout.
As a result of this, I sold the TA-11 and went back to battery powered RDS.
I later read something by Pat Rogers with the same criticism of ACOGs regarding the problem of going from a bright environment to a dark environment.
I recently attended a carbine only match wherein all the competitors were LE or affiliated. All the guys from a particular agency were using compact ACOGs (1.5x with yellow triangle reticles).
These guys were at a huge disadvantage, and it showed in their performance. The magnification slowed them tremendously, compared to the RDS shooters.
I knew what they were up against, having previously owned a 1.5x ACOG about 8 yrs ago (tried it, hated it, sold it).
Anyway, having tried 1.5 and 3.5 acogs, I would not do so again. To me, the better solution, if you have to have magnification, would be either a FTS magnifier behind a 1x RDS, or perhaps a TR24.
My 2 cents . . .
...or you could just tape a mini chem light up near the fiber optic.
...or you could get real fancy and rig a key chain type led light in the same fashion. Why someone hasn't come out with this type of set up is beyond me. Cheap, reliable, easily maintainable.
Interesting ideas.
Mini-chem light would be viable if
1/you have access to them in bulk
2/you are willing to put a new one on your optic prior to every shift or patrol (I'm not).
Mini keychain LED sounds like a better idea.
Would the above cause any problems with reticle bloom? Would this matter?
Oh I agree completely that a small LED is the way to go. As for blooming, I think it would just depend on the type of LED used and/or perhaps color.
It seems like such an easy fix. Perhaps I'll start experimenting and see what I can come up with.
I'd like to see what you come up with. I'm not on patrol or anything. I'm just trying to see how people are doing with their ACOGs in class.
I will tell you that the military uses ACOGs by the truckload here in Afghanistan. While it may be true that for CQB environments they aren't the best option, but for your "normal/routine" engagements, they are the balls.
There are also plenty of ELCAN optics here are well.
I ran the TA31F for a couple of months and loved it for 50 yards to 300 yards, especially with a ATN PS22-2 NVD mounted in front of it. Clear glass, easy to zero and use. I could never get used to the BAC for closer shooting. Now I run an Aimpoint CompM3 for classes and am trying to get used to a beautiful new Horus Talon 1-4x.
I run a TA-01NSN with a RDS on top. The ACOG is great at 50-400m, but can suck in up-close and personal stuff.
The RDS works great for 3 Gun, but puts me in Open, but then again I'm not their for the time or scores, just the for the fun of it. ;)
Hoping to get into my first MD Carbine course soon. :)
theblackknight
11-29-09, 19:36
What about if the ACOC had a DR. Optics mounted on it or BUIS. I thought the Marines trained to use the ACOG with both eyes open.
No,Marines are told to use them from 5-50 yards both eyes open, but it dosent work. When I did the CM course and mout training,I tried using it, but its slow. anything closer then 50 y, I just look over the scope.
i'm very interested if anyone has experience with the new RMRs mounted on an ACOG....I have a TA-33 which sits pretty low on the rifle and have considered putting an RMR on top of it...
i am particularly intrigued by the RMRs that are tritium/fiber optics...the dot is like 9 MOA, but at the distances I would be using it at, thats fine....beyond 50 yards I'd use the ACOG...
any thoughts on this would be welcome
Failure2Stop
12-25-09, 14:01
I moved this thread since it was more applicable in the T&T area and no-one from MagPul participated in the thread thus far with lots of responses from the readership in general.
No,Marines are told to use them from 5-50 yards both eyes open, but it dosent work. When I did the CM course and mout training,I tried using it, but its slow. anything closer then 50 y, I just look over the scope.
If you bothered to actually use what was taught you would perform at a much higher level of performance.
Then again, your instructors might be useless jerk-offs, so if you want to learn how to get the most out of the combination, PM me.
i'm very interested if anyone has experience with the new RMRs mounted on an ACOG....I have a TA-33 which sits pretty low on the rifle and have considered putting an RMR on top of it...
It's workable but sub-optimal.
I have a battery powered RMR on a TA11.
The LOS over bore is pretty ridiculous at close range and you will need to train yourself to make default presentations to the RMR instead of the ACOG.
I think the difference between an ACOG and a red dot at short ranges (3-25yds.) is pretty small. I'm a fraction of a second faster with a T-1, but I hold a tighter group with an ACOG. The trick to using the ACOG up close just seems (to me) to be practice. Just run it (both eyes open) until you can look at a target, shoulder the rifle and put the triangle where you were looking. It also helped me with my holds-using the top and bottom of the site on target vs holding high with a red dot. I prefer a red dot since using a vehicle or barricades is easier with a more low profile sight, but I wouldn't consider myself at a disadvantage if I had an ACOG-next rotation I may switch back just to keep it interesting. Bear in mind however, I'm kinda dumb.:D
Several years ago, I ran a 3.5x TA11 on a 16" AR15 in a VTAC LE carbine class. This works great for distances beyond 25 yds out to about 300 yds, but is slower and harder to use under 25 yds--especially indoors. I despise putting a mini-RDS on top of the ACOG. Instead, when using an ACOG, I like to add an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue LT724 angled mount.
http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/AimpointMicroT-1withLT-724AngledQDmountCombo500-00/myalbum/p9100858.jpg
However, I am no longer generally running an ACOG. At this point in time, for LE Patrol and SWAT use, I far prefer an Aimpoint RDS with an Aimpoint 3x magnifier on a LaRue LT649 swing mount.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/48437-LaRue_Pivot.jpg
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