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Kazzy
09-27-09, 16:09
Hey guys, I was wondering if there was a manufacturer chart for 1911s like there is for ARs? I am thinking about picking up a Springfield Armory Lightweight Operator and was wondering how it stacks up against other 1911s. It would be my first 1911 so any help would be much appreciated!

Business_Casual
09-27-09, 16:15
10-8 Forums have a lot of 1911 threads.

Here's Hilton Yam's take on the 1911:

http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html

Good luck.

M_P

Kazzy
09-27-09, 16:19
Thank you very much!

Ak44
09-27-09, 16:27
Good choice on a 1911

The Dumb Gun Collector
09-27-09, 22:47
I like the idea of the 1911 chart. Imagine the hell that would start.:D

John_Wayne777
09-28-09, 08:32
I like the idea of the 1911 chart. Imagine the hell that would start.:D

The weeping and gnashing of teeth would be epic. There's already so much stupidity in the 1911 world to make you want to eat your gun just to make the pain stop...

...like people all over the place bitching their little lips off because LAV said that if you want something smaller than a 5" .45 1911 then buy another gun on Tactical Arms...I mean, really...what the hell does *HE* know about 1911's? I've put 200 rounds through my 3" Kimber in the last 5 years and it works great!...

...a "chart" on the 1911 would be practically impossible since there's no real TDP out there for the 1911, but if we could muster one we'd be up to our elbows in inflamed manginas and hurt feelings.

Jason Burton
09-28-09, 22:35
The weeping and gnashing of teeth would be epic. There's already so much stupidity in the 1911 world to make you want to eat your gun just to make the pain stop...

...like people all over the place bitching their little lips off because LAV said that if you want something smaller than a 5" .45 1911 then buy another gun on Tactical Arms...I mean, really...what the hell does *HE* know about 1911's? I've put 200 rounds through my 3" Kimber in the last 5 years and it works great!...

...a "chart" on the 1911 would be practically impossible since there's no real TDP out there for the 1911, but if we could muster one we'd be up to our elbows in inflamed manginas and hurt feelings.

:D:D .... HA!! ...:D:D

DacoRoman
09-28-09, 22:43
.I mean, really...what the hell does *HE* know about 1911's? I've put 200 rounds through my 3" Kimber in the last 5 years and it works great!...

yeah, 200 FLAWLESS rounds :D

Business_Casual
09-29-09, 06:00
yeah, 200 FLAWLESS rounds :D

"I held at one at the gun store today and I must say I was impressed."

M_P

moyler
09-29-09, 11:58
Hey guys, I was wondering if there was a manufacturer chart for 1911s like there is for ARs? I am thinking about picking up a Springfield Armory Lightweight Operator and was wondering how it stacks up against other 1911s. It would be my first 1911 so any help would be much appreciated!

No, there is no "chart" for 1911s. The 1911 forums are great places to read and gather information.

I would not recommend an alloy framed, 4" gun as your first 1911, for reliability and shootability reasons.

I would rate Springfield 1911s as good, mid-tier guns with good customer service from SA.

You owe it to yourself to do some serious research as to what you want and NEED in this gun, so you don't waste alot of your money. For instance, are you really going to mount a lamp on a 1911, let alone any handgun? Research is free, guns are not.

Most here will simply recommend GLOCK or M&P, and with good reason. For 1911 information, again, check out forums like www.1911forum.com and http://forum.m1911.org/

Good luck!

Kazzy
09-29-09, 14:46
Thanks for all of your help guys!! Much appreciated! :cool:

DacoRoman
09-29-09, 21:31
"I held at one at the gun store today and I must say I was impressed."

M_P

touché! :D that's is indeed the ultimate chump understudy verbal stamp of approval

Dunderway
09-29-09, 22:03
...a "chart" on the 1911 would be practically impossible since there's no real TDP out there for the 1911, but if we could muster one we'd be up to our elbows in inflamed manginas and hurt feelings.

I would just be happy if there were enough companies that made Mil-Spec 1911s to justify a chart.

When I say "Mil-Spec" I'm talking about throwing five fully disassembled pistols into a pillow case, and being able to put together five perfectly functioning pistols by drawing random parts.

FuriousGeorge
09-30-09, 13:47
...like people all over the place bitching their little lips off because LAV said that if you want something smaller than a 5" .45 1911 then buy another gun on Tactical Arms...I mean, really...what the hell does *HE* know about 1911's? I've put 200 rounds through my 3" Kimber in the last 5 years and it works great!...


That isn't a serious post, is it?

I'm not aware of any manufacture charts for 1911s. I would just talk to different smiths on the forums, and come to your own conclusion.

John_Wayne777
09-30-09, 13:53
Wow.....That's just embarrassing. Who's "LAV"? Larry Vickers? Yeah, I'm sure Vickers is the only guy in the entire world that recommends against anything shorter than a commander length 1911. I would add a few zeroes behind your 200 before you comment on the guns reliability.


Revel in the embarassment:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-guns/84573-tactical-arms-1911-a.html

markm
09-30-09, 13:57
Get over the romance!!

cathellsk
09-30-09, 21:04
Revel in the embarassment:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-guns/84573-tactical-arms-1911-a.html


I'm reveling....and feel dumber after reading it.
What the hell are people thinking?! That these guys (Vickers etc.) don't have a clue what they're talking about?

ChicagoTex
10-01-09, 06:32
When I say "Mil-Spec" I'm talking about throwing five fully disassembled pistols into a pillow case, and being able to put together five perfectly functioning pistols by drawing random parts.

There are only two ways to acheive that level of interchangeability (especially in a 1911), one would be an absolutely insane quality control that'd run the cost of each pistol up to about $3k apiece (and even then you wouldn't have accuracy and reliability would be hit-or-miss), or to build em like they did in the old days: with tolerances so loose you could wake the dead from rattling 'em.

Parts interchangeability is all well and good, and can be a point of significant value to a large military or police instutition maintaining a tremendous number of guns but to us, the average buyers, we actually get a better 1911 with our parts fit to the specific gun.

Mil-spec ain't no great shakes in my book...

Spiffums
10-01-09, 07:37
Bac over on Glock Talk is supposed to be doing a write up for entry level 1911s. I don't think he has it posted yet and while he doesn't claim to be an expert on the 1911, he personally owns almost 1 of every brand.

Might want to check in there now and again to see if it has been posted yet.

Dunderway
10-01-09, 19:37
build em like they did in the old days: with tolerances so loose you could wake the dead from rattling 'em.


That is what I want: build the gun to a spec, like they did in the old days. One of the major complaints about the 1911 is that it takes a fairly skilled individual/a great deal of time to replace the majority of the parts.

I also do not know if I agree with your other statement. I think this may be an exaggeration from people who have only seen abused, 60 year old surplus weapons. Comparing a DCM "rack grade" M1 to new as issued M1 is not a fair comparison. Even then, "waking the dead" is quite an exaggeration for the fit of a particular Rem Rand that I have had the chance to fire on occassion.

A NIB original 1911A1 is not something that many of us have had a chance to inspect. However, I have handled like-new Government Models that were from around the same era and there was no "rattle" to speak of. Colt's WWII reissue was supposedly held to the original blueprints, and the examples I have seen were not rattle traps either.

DacoRoman
10-01-09, 19:38
Bac over on Glock Talk is supposed to be doing a write up for entry level 1911s. I don't think he has it posted yet and while he doesn't claim to be an expert on the 1911, he personally owns almost 1 of every brand.

Might want to check in there now and again to see if it has been posted yet.

That would be an interesting perspective to read, but even then, the post will simply be one man's anecdote based on a sample of 1 per brand, which is essentially insignificant, statistically speaking.

Plus how would a 1911 chart work? All 1911's ought to have the correct specs. regarding frame ramp angle, breech face angle, polished frame ramp/barrel throat, flush firing pin hole, barrel to frame ramp gap, barrel lug length, fitted barrel and bushing, properly tensioned extractor, ejector of proper length, etc. etc.

If a gun from a manufacturer doesn't have these correct specs, then, is it a systematic problem, or just a bad example? I would imagine that all high quality 1911 makers, and even the more modest makers, would claim that they use the optimal specifications for a 1911.

The only thing you might be able to trust are reports of any MIM usage.

So I am not sure how a 1911 chart would work really. Ultimately you just have properly running guns or guns that don't run, MIM parts, or not.

Anyway, these are just some questions I have based on a cursory consideration of the concept.

Dunderway
10-01-09, 19:58
Get over the romance!!

You’re just jealous because you know how silly you would look standing in front of your mirror in a trench coat and fedora, repeating lines from Casa Blanca with that plastic pistol in your hand.

:D

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-09, 22:48
Here is my official chart from best to worst. LET THE ARGUMENTS BEGIN!:D

NIGHTHAWK/WILSON, ED BROWN, COLT, SPRINGFIELD, KIMBER, PARAORDANCE RIA

ThirdWatcher
10-02-09, 03:57
Here is my official chart from best to worst. LET THE ARGUMENTS BEGIN!:D

NIGHTHAWK/WILSON, ED BROWN, COLT, SPRINGFIELD, KIMBER, PARAORDANCE RIA

I can't disagree with you.

ChicagoTex
10-02-09, 04:05
Here is my official chart from best to worst. LET THE ARGUMENTS BEGIN!

NIGHTHAWK/WILSON, ED BROWN, COLT, SPRINGFIELD, KIMBER, PARAORDANCE RIA


I can't disagree with you.

I generally agree as well (although I feel that Colt and Springfield may be close enough to warrant a tie).

I assume this is a list of of what you personally own or have owned, as it's missing quite a number of makers.

For example, for factory guns, nothing beats a current-production Dan Wesson right now IMO - they are an obvious step above Colt and Springfield in quality. I also feel S&W and SIG deserve to sit alongside Springfield and Colt in sort of a 4-way tie. Finally, I'd insert Taurus just above RIA but behind Para Ordnance.

Obviously though, any real custom is going to sit above the factory guns, Baers and Fusions may not be quite as nice as Nighthawks and Ed Browns, but they're still a clear cut above factory guns.

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-09, 09:17
1. Customs from Novak's, Heirloom, Chuck Rogers, etc.
2.Nighthawk/Wilson/Springfield Professional
3.Ed Brown/Baer
4.Colt (BECAUSE IT IS A COLT! LOL).
5. Springfield/Dan Wesson
6. Kimber
7. Para Ordanance
8 Taurus/RIA

I am excluding S&W and SIG because I really think of them as more "1911 inspired" than 1911s. Sort of like the old Spanish 1911 style guns.

MarshallDodge
10-02-09, 10:48
The biggest problem I see with 1911's is quality control and magazines. I personally have seen inconsistent stuff from Kimber, Colt, Springfield, and Dan Wesson, and even Smith and Wesson. Springfield and Dan Wesson put out a lot of gun for the money but once in a while they let one slip through.

When you get into the $1500 and higher guns from Brown, Baer, Wilson, Nighthawk, Springfield, and the custom makers, you can almost guarantee a good product because they can spend the time to pay attention to quality.

Rider79
10-02-09, 11:03
Revel in the embarassment:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-guns/84573-tactical-arms-1911-a.html

The biggest jackass on the entire thread has to be the admin guy.

ChicagoTex
10-02-09, 11:09
I am excluding S&W and SIG because I really think of them as more "1911 inspired" than 1911s. Sort of like the old Spanish 1911 style guns.

For the SIGs I can kind of understand that. They use external extractors and are styled pretty differently from normal 1911s.

But how do you figure S&Ws don't count? I realize they, too use external extractors, but so does Para, and they made your list. The other main mechanical deviation - the Schwartz safety, is used in most Kimbers, another brand that made your list.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand what about S&Ws in particular makes you think "1911-inspired" rather than "1911".

Littlelebowski
10-02-09, 11:44
Revel in the embarassment:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-guns/84573-tactical-arms-1911-a.html

Dear god. The admin is by far the worst one. I'm giving that forum a wide berth.

Littlelebowski
10-02-09, 11:53
Wait, it's an admin and a mod looking like complete morons. Wow. Apparently 1911s don't need lube now.

What a screwed up forum.

John_Wayne777
10-02-09, 12:39
Kinda makes you appreciate M4C's mods, staff, and IP/SME system, right? ;)

Littlelebowski
10-02-09, 12:49
Kinda makes you appreciate M4C's mods, staff, and IP/SME system, right? ;)

I did until you guys made FailureToStop a mod. I don't know about that guy....:D

What I appreciate is the system that frowns upon unfounded statements.

The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-09, 16:43
Chicagotex,

You are right, most of Para-Ordances offerings should fall into the "1911 inspired" category.

SWATcop556
10-03-09, 01:47
When I say "Mil-Spec" I'm talking about throwing five fully disassembled pistols into a pillow case, and being able to put together five perfectly functioning pistols by drawing random parts.

The sad thing is that you probably couldn't do that with ONE disassembled pistol from certain companies that just jumped on the 1911 band-wagon.

I think one of the best bang-for-your-buck 1911's out there is the Springfield 10-8 Operator or the Professional. YMMV.