View Full Version : CMMG Bargin Bin
a friend linked me to this. do your own research. it has possibilities as long as you realize what you may receive.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=161&
ps...hopefully this is right area for this type of post.
geminidglocker
10-01-09, 11:26
Sounds like a good buy for that price. Especially for someone who is on a budget but just wants to get familiar with the AR platform. ARs are addictive and so if this deal encourages new shooters to pick up an AR, than that is a good thing. If the rifles don't perform well, they can always come to this site and learn how to upgrade or buy a better rifle. Oh, and how about buying one for a kid who won't be using it for anything other than a range gun?
I've seen several of these now. They are a hodge-podge of parts, with a heavy lean toward DPMS components. Assembly quality varies. Those I've seen have been used as sport/hobby guns or dress-up. They are an outstanding value in that use.
With pre-emptive inspection and service by a knowledgeable and experienced armorer, they can be rendered serviceable in other uses for those on a tight budget. At the current price point, adding a known-good LPK and bolt still maintain savings while helping mitigate issues. Staking, gauging, and reaming help with others.
Certainly not a first choice, but not unthinkable either.
Best darn deal I've seen lately is "customer appreciation" at Ranier for standard DD at $999 with a $250 DD gift cert. Spend the balance on an Omega, back-up LPKs, etc. Can't imagine they'll last.
Bases on personal experience, I agree that anyone buying CMMG needs to know what they're getting into.
Seems like a big roll of the dice. Brand new DPMS are selling for close to that around here.
Best darn deal I've seen lately is "customer appreciation" at Ranier for standard DD at $999 with a $250 DD gift cert. Spend the balance on an Omega, back-up LPKs, etc. Can't imagine they'll last.
Bases on personal experience, I agree that anyone buying CMMG needs to know what they're getting into.
Or sell the Omega on the EE and you will have a Tier 1 M4 for roughly $100 more than some hogde-podge scratch and dent gun.
Sorry, I meant USE the $250 on cool DD stuff. You're still into it for a grand. But you're right, you could pawn off the stuff you get...
I read not too long ago Grant had an ADS for sale. There's another good bargain.
Bases on personal experience, I agree that anyone buying CMMG needs to know what they're getting into.
What issues have you seen with CMMG that are any worse than other AR manufacturers?
Sounds like quite a deal for a rifle that won't see much action this is about perfect for what I want a cheap spare AR-15 for my girl as she is looking at upgrading from the S&W M&P 15-22 . I will be picking one up out the door plus FFL transfer fee $636.00 can't beat that
Best darn deal I've seen lately is "customer appreciation" at Ranier for standard DD at $999 with a $250 DD gift cert. Spend the balance on an Omega, back-up LPKs, etc. Can't imagine they'll last.
Bases on personal experience, I agree that anyone buying CMMG needs to know what they're getting into.
I haven't seen the Rainier deal. Could you show me where it is?
spamsammich
10-02-09, 13:03
I haven't seen the Rainier deal. Could you show me where it is?
If you're on their mailing list, they sent out a customer appreciation special email. Call them up and ask them about it.
Delivery of wrong items, not functioning items, on and on. Coupled with wait time like RRA.
Failure2Stop
10-02-09, 19:20
What issues have you seen with CMMG that are any worse than other AR manufacturers?
It's not so much that it's a CMMG (which have had documented consistency issues), but that the bargain bin guns are random collections of parts assembled into rifles. There seem to be quite a few happy customers, though they tend to be low-volume reports. There are probably a few that have had a bunch of bullets through them with no problem.
Then again, there are some certain issues that arise when assembling random collections of lower quality parts, such as seen in a recent thread HERE (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38708).
I personally would not buy one unless I had the opportunity to look it over and personally perform a part check and function test, as well as having the tools and interest necessary to fix any issues that arise.
Maybe that $600 carbine will last the rest of your shooting life, maybe it will require $400 worth of parts repair/replacement (a number easily reached considering the price of a quality barrel and bolt carrier group). Some people don't care about having a commercial receiver extension and won't ever change the stock anyway. Plenty of users are happy with a 1/9 barrel since they will only shoot 55gr Wolf out of it 4 times a year. There is a definite application for a cheap plinker. Others might simply decide that it's worth the $400 to get a rifle with a higher pedigree and lower probability of issues if they want it for more serious use.
Here are some pics of a recent bargain bin gun:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/115104051
SpacemanSpiff
10-03-09, 09:37
FWIW, mine looked just as good as the ones in the thread linked above, but my first range outing resulted in slam-fires of 2 or 3 round bursts. its at the gunsmith now.
Jay Cunningham
10-03-09, 09:40
Buy cheap buy twice.
Here are some pics of a recent bargain bin gun:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/115104051
That thread is completely devoid of useful information.
Other than confirming that the BB gun is indeed an M4-type.
This would be a good alternative for cheap:
http://www.dsarms.com/DSA-ZM4-Forged-7075T6-A3-AR15-Upper-Receiver---DSZM4CBU/productinfo/DSZM4CBU/
Add BCG and HG for $160, LMT lower for $330, and you're in for under 8 bills.
It's not so much that it's a CMMG (which have had documented consistency issues), but that the bargain bin guns are random collections of parts assembled into rifles. There seem to be quite a few happy customers, though they tend to be low-volume reports. There are probably a few that have had a bunch of bullets through them with no problem.
Then again, there are some certain issues that arise when assembling random collections of lower quality parts, such as seen in a recent thread HERE (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38708).
I personally would not buy one unless I had the opportunity to look it over and personally perform a part check and function test, as well as having the tools and interest necessary to fix any issues that arise.
Maybe that $600 carbine will last the rest of your shooting life, maybe it will require $400 worth of parts repair/replacement (a number easily reached considering the price of a quality barrel and bolt carrier group). Some people don't care about having a commercial receiver extension and won't ever change the stock anyway. Plenty of users are happy with a 1/9 barrel since they will only shoot 55gr Wolf out of it 4 times a year. There is a definite application for a cheap plinker. Others might simply decide that it's worth the $400 to get a rifle with a higher pedigree and lower probability of issues if they want it for more serious use.
I'd agree, and while I'm not in the market for another rifle, the 1/9 barrel would have made it a deal killer for me (I like Prvi 75 grain)
I just think that too many view the likes of CMMG, Yankee Hill, DPMS, etc as "2nd (or 3rd) Tier" because they're not a "Gucci" brand without giving them a fair shake. I have a 16" CMMG midlength barrel that's been very good, their 22LR conversion kit works, and their 22LR upper works. OMMV.
BLACK LION
10-03-09, 13:24
This would be a good alternative for cheap:
http://www.dsarms.com/DSA-ZM4-Forged-7075T6-A3-AR15-Upper-Receiver---DSZM4CBU/productinfo/DSZM4CBU/
Add BCG and HG for $160, LMT lower for $330, and you're in for under 8 bills.
I went with this option for a KISS M4gery...
It seemed like a great deal and had all the basic things I was looking for in an upper aside from the 1/9 twist(although better for stabilizing .22lr which I do intend to run)... They are nitrided which I am anxious to try out... 288.00 to my door...
Upgraded 5.56 bolt from TimW(68forums) and an enhanced carrier of some sort.
For the lower... DSA also has a special on thier ZM4 lower @ 90.00... get a lpk, stock, bufffer and sss spring and were good for well under 8 bills... Just as it was mentioned above...
Although not my first choice when I entered the AR world(custom 6.8x43)... I am now finding the need for something more basic as a training tool... no bells and whistles and no erroneous accoutrements yet built to abse...
I went with this option for a KISS M4gery...
It seemed like a great deal and had all the basic things I was looking for in an upper aside from the 1/9 twist(although better for stabilizing .22lr which I do intend to run)... They are nitrided which I am anxious to try out... 288.00 to my door...
Upgraded 5.56 bolt from TimW(68forums) and an enhanced carrier of some sort.
For the lower... DSA also has a special on thier ZM4 lower @ 90.00... get a lpk, stock, bufffer and sss spring and were good for well under 8 bills... Just as it was mentioned above...
Although not my first choice when I entered the AR world(custom 6.8x43)... I am now finding the need for something more basic as a training tool... no bells and whistles and no erroneous accoutrements yet built to abse...
Think S&W 5.45 upper... :)
This would be a good alternative for cheap:
http://www.dsarms.com/DSA-ZM4-Forged-7075T6-A3-AR15-Upper-Receiver---DSZM4CBU/productinfo/DSZM4CBU/ Add BCG and HG for $160, LMT lower for $330, and you're in for under 8 bills.
Aren't those DPMS or Olympic as well?
I just think that too many view the likes of CMMG, Yankee Hill, DPMS, etc as "2nd (or 3rd) Tier" because they're not a "Gucci" brand without giving them a fair shake.
Not here.
lots of people [like me] who wants a AR, but cannot afford it, in time, planning, little by little, [like me]..
you can build it anyway you wants.
piece by piece...[like me]
i thinks the CMMG deal, is great, because after all.? an AR is an AR.
pretty much all the same, just differant stickers on the door.
.01 cents worth.
peabody
That thread is completely devoid of useful information.
Other than confirming that the BB gun is indeed an M4-type.
Was trying to at least show an example of the aesthetics to others who had questions about what they looked like. Wasn't trying to prove they are good internally or not.
For those that have or will order, I hope they get some good AR's!
lots of people [like me] who wants a AR, but cannot afford it, in time, planning, little by little, [like me]..
you can build it anyway you wants.
piece by piece...[like me]
Buy the best you can afford then. Hit the stickied threads for the best ways to mitigate problems you might have.
i thinks the CMMG deal, is great, because after all.? an AR is an AR.
pretty much all the same, just differant stickers on the door.
Absolutely untrue. There may be owners that will never realize the differences between them, but they are most certainly not the same.
I bought one of the BB guns last year for $570 just to check it out. It turned out to be a Doublestar M4 and it was a decent carbine. Ran like a champ and no visible flaws.
Most people who have actually received their rifles (instead of speculating, like many here) have good reviews.
Jay Cunningham
10-03-09, 15:15
I bought one of the BB guns last year for $570 just to check it out. It turned out to be a Doublestar M4 and it was a decent carbine. Ran like a champ and no visible flaws.
Most people who have actually received their rifles (instead of speculating, like many here) have good reviews.
When you state that it "[r]an like a champ" what exactly does that mean? How many rounds over what period of time?
Wouldn't buying a Smith&Wesson M&P15A from Grant for $850 be a better deal? It already has a troy BUIS and I would guess that it would qualify for Smith&Wesson's mag promotion(buy a M&P15, get 5 free pmags). Factor in the cost of the BUIS and the pmags and the price difference isn't that big, with the advantage of a much better gun.
Absolutely untrue. There may be owners that will never realize the differences between them, but they are most certainly not the same.[/QUOTE]
pretty happy with mine, altho ? it totally bushmaster, just thoughts the CMMG deal, would've been a great deal for me, back then.
only other ar's i've ever seen , was an older colt, and a stag.... but what do i know ? looked the same to me ?
im still at the very bottom of the ar pile.
peabody
When you state that it "[r]an like a champ" what exactly does that mean? How many rounds over what period of time?
Meaning, problem-free operation. Over 1000 rounds in a month's time period. I then sold it and the new owner continues to enjoy it.
Jay Cunningham
10-03-09, 15:29
Thank you for qualifying your statement with additional detail.
i thinks the CMMG deal, is great, because after all.? an AR is an AR.
pretty much all the same, just differant stickers on the door.
peabody
Ehhhhh, I think you just opened up a can of worms there. I for one think that there is a difference in the quality of rifles from the top tier (DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske, etc) and "the others." As far as casual plinkers, you won't notice much a difference in shootability but the quality, and longevity will be missing. Some make a big deal, but for me, I want quality the first time. As people have said here before, "Buy once, cry once"
Ehhhhh, I think you just opened up a can of worms there. I for one think that there is a difference in the quality of rifles from the top tier (DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske, etc) and "the others." As far as casual plinkers, you won't notice much a difference in shootability but the quality, and longevity will be missing. Some make a big deal, but for me, I want quality the first time. As people have said here before, "Buy once, cry once"
well ? like i said ? mine is all bushmaster.. runs fine, but keep in mind, im still a bottom feeder, of the AR world .. but im learning ?
i thoughts ..[and the navy told me not to]..lol !! but i was under the impression ? that mil-spec, is mil-spec ? hence the quote an AR is an AR.
its ok, if im wrong, .... thats why im reading these boards, maybe ? i'll learn something.
hope so.
peabody
well ? like i said ? mine is all bushmaster.. runs fine, but keep in mind, im still a bottom feeder, of the AR world .. but im learning ?
i thoughts ..[and the navy told me not to]..lol !! but i was under the impression ? that mil-spec, is mil-spec ? hence the quote an AR is an AR.
its ok, if im wrong, .... thats why im reading these boards, maybe ? i'll learn something.
hope so.
peabody
Actually, mil-spec is just the absolute minimum quality the US Govt will accept when purchasing weapons. It is published in the TDP and anyone doing business with the Military needs to conform. That assures standardization of all weapons of the same type.
That being said, nothing says a rifle not meant for Uncle Sam can't have parts that are better in quality or function than Mil-spec. Conversely, nothing prevents a manufacturer from using any parts he wants and not coming close to even meeting Mil-spec minimums. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that all ARs, including your Bushmaster, meet Mil-Spec. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a lot of junk out there, even rifles claiming to meet Mil-Spec. Also, one part being Mil-spec, means nothing with respect to the rest of the rifle. So if a Manufacturer claims their lower has a Mil-spec finish, all that means is the outside is finished like a military weapon. The trigger group, assorted springs and pins, and the receiver extension could be cheap junk.
All ARs are not the same. Some are good, some are great, and some could probably malfunction and die during your first case of ammo. It's up to you to do some research. There are hundreds of threads here about what qualities may or may not be important in a high quality rifle. You have to find the ones you think are important for your particular needs (weekend plinker, home defense, Law enforcement, target shooting, varmint hunting, etc.)
Actually, mil-spec is just the absolute minimum quality the US Govt will accept when purchasing weapons. It is published in the TDP and anyone doing business with the Military needs to conform. That assures standardization of all weapons of the same type.
That being said, nothing says a rifle not meant for Uncle Sam can't have parts that are better in quality or function than Mil-spec. Conversely, nothing prevents a manufacturer from using any parts he wants and not coming close to even meeting Mil-spec minimums. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that all ARs, including your Bushmaster, meet Mil-Spec. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a lot of junk out there, even rifles claiming to meet Mil-Spec. Also, one part being Mil-spec, means nothing with respect to the rest of the rifle. So if a Manufacturer claims their lower has a Mil-spec finish, all that means is the outside is finished like a military weapon. The trigger group, assorted springs and pins, and the receiver extension could be cheap junk.
All ARs are not the same. Some are good, some are great, and some could probably malfunction and die during your first case of ammo. It's up to you to do some research. There are hundreds of threads here about what qualities may or may not be important in a high quality rifle. You have to find the ones you think are important for your particular needs (weekend plinker, home defense, Law enforcement, target shooting, varmint hunting, etc.)
now that sure opened my eyes.!!
so now i understand, mil-spec can be anything, ok.
i got my bushmaster a few years ago in a farm equipment trade, i knew then, and a little more so now, very little about ar's.
but ? from reading these boards ? bushmaster is one of the supply for our military? correct?
so i ''assume'' mine is mil-spec.
in the years i've had mine, its always worked, and its had a hard life, on the tractor, pickup, 4wheeler, but shes always went bang.
your right, i did think they was all the same. very glad you explained it to me.
maybe i just got a good one, luck of the draw.
thanks, for explaining, and your patience sir,
peabody
bushmaster is one of the supply for our military? correct?
so i ''assume'' mine is mil-spec.
peabody
Actually, as I understand from perusing this website, only Colt and FN actually supply rifles to the US military. LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) make parts and sights for the military. Both Colt and LMT sell rifles and parts on the civilian market. FN doesn't. Now the government may contract with other companies for non-military agencies (DEA uses RRA ARs) or for foreign militaries.
Bushmaster does make some nice rifles, but from what I've read, their basic carbine falls short or differs from Mil-spec in several areas. As I mentioned, this is not always bad. A 20" Stainless Steel fluted 1 in 12 twist barrel may be just the ticket for a target or varmint rifle, but it's not mil-spec.
If your Bushie has served you well, great. On the other hand, one of our members is an armourer for a Govt Contracter in the sandbox, and he doesn't care much for the ones he has to maintain. As I said, you have to determine what works for you.
Actually, as I understand from perusing this website, only Colt and FN actually supply rifles to the US military. LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) make parts and sights for the military. Both Colt and LMT sell rifles and parts on the civilian market. FN doesn't. Now the government may contract with other companies for non-military agencies (DEA uses RRA ARs) or for foreign militaries.
Bushmaster does make some nice rifles, but from what I've read, their basic carbine falls short or differs from Mil-spec in several areas. As I mentioned, this is not always bad. A 20" Stainless Steel fluted 1 in 12 twist barrel may be just the ticket for a target or varmint rifle, but it's not mil-spec.
If your Bushie has served you well, great. On the other hand, one of our members is an armourer for a Govt Contracter in the sandbox, and he doesn't care much for the ones he has to maintain. As I said, you have to determine what works for you.
i'll have to agree with you, i was in OIF, 04-06. at the time our guys where carrying colts, not that i paid much attention at the time, was just glad they was with us. [convoys]. that's one of the reasons i traded for my AR, those rifles was tough,
i'll say colts, because of what you just told me. i never really looked for a brand name, just saw them as an M16/ar15.
the one i really wanted at the time was my buddy's sgt,jimmy's SAW ..lol !
anyway, the boys liked their weapons, from what i gathered. and i traded for mine when i got home, not knowing anything about them.
my learnig curve is kinda flat, but im getting there.
peabody
First I'm new to ARs but not new to guns, own about 15 of them. I bought a couple of these bargin bin rifles, one for a friend the other will be as a christmas gift for my brother. I'm still waiting on a upper for myself as this would be my first AR. The bargin bin rifles looked fine, no dents, scratches, it cycled nice. The barrel is marked CMMG WASP 5.56 NATO 1/9, and both upper & lower are from CMMG. I know it needs to be shot but at first glance I thought what a nice rifle from a small company. I'll learn more when it gets shot, but you can't beat that price for an AR. Real nice as any gift too. I'm sure there are much better quality manufactors. Just my .02 worth.
...but you can't beat that price for an AR.
I never really understood that sentiment when it comes to a piece like this. I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that your quote perfectly sums up my confusion.
In my mind, the primary value of a tool is that it functions. If a tool does not work, or does not work reliably, it has little to no value. So far, the people who are speaking out about the great value of these guns (including those links to other forums), are mostly speaking of their aesthetic value.
By my count, we have two posters so far with trigger time on one of these guns (unless I mistakenly glazed over others). One had 1,000 rounds without problems before passing the gun off. One, who purchased his more recently, discovered major malfunctions (of a dangerous nature) in the FCG when he was just into his first magazine.
A tiny sample size for this particular gun, sure, but doesn't exactly fill me with confidence or speak out about their value. Is CMMG claiming to have test fired these weapons before sending them to customers? You'd think that if they were actually testing them, they'd notice SpacemanSpiff's weapon was doubling.
So in my mind, a carbine that works but costs more still "beats the price" of a carbine that costs less but doesn't work. I really don't care if a gun is covered in dings: they will get there eventually. I'd rather have a scratched up, dented, ugly carbine that costs more but functions perfectly than a cheaper, prettier carbine that may or may not function.
I never really understood that sentiment when it comes to a piece like this. I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that your quote perfectly sums up my confusion.
In my mind, the primary value of a tool is that it functions. If a tool does not work, or does not work reliably, it has little to no value. So far, the people who are speaking out about the great value of these guns (including those links to other forums), are mostly speaking of their aesthetic value.
By my count, we have two posters so far with trigger time on one of these guns (unless I mistakenly glazed over others). One had 1,000 rounds without problems before passing the gun off. One, who purchased his more recently, discovered major malfunctions (of a dangerous nature) in the FCG when he was just into his first magazine.
A tiny sample size for this particular gun, sure, but doesn't exactly fill me with confidence or speak out about their value. Is CMMG claiming to have test fired these weapons before sending them to customers? You'd think that if they were actually testing them, they'd notice SpacemanSpiff's weapon was doubling.
So in my mind, a carbine that works but costs more still "beats the price" of a carbine that costs less but doesn't work. I really don't care if a gun is covered in dings: they will get there eventually. I'd rather have a scratched up, dented, ugly carbine that costs more but functions perfectly than a cheaper, prettier carbine that may or may not function.
I agree, I would rather spend the money for a decent reliable rifle. I went on other peoples responses to their company so I'll learn first hand. The bargin bin rifle is a present but I did order from CMMG their lower and a 16" midlength upper. Over all the only real complain I heard, other than here on this thread, was the wait time. And it seems theres wait times every where. Beleive me, I won't be cheap dressing it out, but was trying to get the most out of my money and have a reliable firearm. I'm altogether new to the AR platform but not new to guns in any way, this would be my 15th gun, so I hope I interpude all the input from the forums I read correctly. If not I'll make sure to inform everyone about my bad luck, and ask for help to fix it.
Failure2Stop
10-05-09, 15:33
As I pointed out earlier, since the rifles are assembled from random sources there is virtually zero consistency, so just because one guy's rifle works fine for 5,000 rounds and somebody else's won't get through a mag safely you cannot attribute success or failure on whether or not it came from the Bargain Bin.
Tolerance stacking from substandard parts is more likely to become a problem, as with disconnectors/safeties/etc as well as other pin-retained parts than it will be with parts held to a higher grade/lower tolerance for acceptance by the assembler. Small parts breakage will also be more likely due to improper heat-treat and/or lower grade material.
Does this guarantee that the gun will go tits-up before a Colt?
Nope.
But it is more probable.
Whether or not that makes any difference to anyone else is up to them.
I never really understood that sentiment when it comes to a piece like this. I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just that your quote perfectly sums up my confusion.
In my mind, the primary value of a tool is that it functions. If a tool does not work, or does not work reliably, it has little to no value. So far, the people who are speaking out about the great value of these guns (including those links to other forums), are mostly speaking of their aesthetic value.
By my count, we have two posters so far with trigger time on one of these guns (unless I mistakenly glazed over others). One had 1,000 rounds without problems before passing the gun off. One, who purchased his more recently, discovered major malfunctions (of a dangerous nature) in the FCG when he was just into his first magazine.
A tiny sample size for this particular gun, sure, but doesn't exactly fill me with confidence or speak out about their value. Is CMMG claiming to have test fired these weapons before sending them to customers? You'd think that if they were actually testing them, they'd notice SpacemanSpiff's weapon was doubling.
So in my mind, a carbine that works but costs more still "beats the price" of a carbine that costs less but doesn't work. I really don't care if a gun is covered in dings: they will get there eventually. I'd rather have a scratched up, dented, ugly carbine that costs more but functions perfectly than a cheaper, prettier carbine that may or may not function.
That's true. But there are also many people using Colts and FNs and other rifles (overseas etc) that experience their fair share of problems as well. A lot of times, the vast majority of feedback you will see is negative. Not many people report the good side of things. Most are quick to point out when there's a problem..
Another "bargain bin" fanboy here.
I got one of the last batch when they were $570. The upper on my rifle has a blueish tint to it, other than that it is flawless in it's fit and finish. I've got just over 2K rounds through it with only one issue. Around 1500 rounds or so I had a stuck caseing, but all this rifle has ever shot was wolf and I didn't own a chamber brush untill I had the jam. I figure 1500 round of what is likely the dirtiest steel cased ammo out there without properly cleaning the chamber is a decent reliability statement for a "junk" gun.
If it were not for the CMMG Bargain Bin, I probably would not have bought a rifle to start with thinking they were too expensive. I saw the deal posted on another board, figured why not, then started learning about them afterwards (aultho I did a few searches for reviews before buying). They are a great starter rifle, and a great rifle for learning how to shoot and work on one. I've swapped out a bunch of parts, but the FCG, upper/lower, BCG, and barrel all still remain as whatever CMMG had sitting on the shelf at the time and I have no complaints.
As delivered with a cheapo carry handle sight thrown on.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk58/kwrangln/ar8.jpg
Here's how it looks today.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk58/kwrangln/bobro/bobro12.jpg
Is it top tier? Nope.
Is it a great way to affordably get into the AR platform and build off of? Hell yes.;)
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