View Full Version : Unnecessarily controversial post. 5 most important auto-loaders of the past 100 years
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-09, 09:28
1. 1911. The measure of all handguns.
2. Luger. I believe this was the first serious autoloader to be military issue. And probably the coolest gun of all time.
3. Walther ppk/P38. Inspired the majority of handguns in service today. If that is good or not is debatable.
4.BHP. The first viable high-capacity handgun. This and #3 combined to make the blueprint for most serious combat handguns.
5. Glock 17. Although little about it was really new (almost everything revolutionary about it was taken from the HK Vp70z) this gun came from nowhere to dominate the police handgun market. Its combination of "so easy a caveman can do it" maintenance and simple (some say too simple) operation has basically made every gun since its introduction little more than a footnote.
Littlelebowski
10-02-09, 09:30
No controversy here. My picks as well ,Greg.
MarshallDodge
10-02-09, 09:41
I can live with those picks.
I believe that Glock revolutionized the handgun manufacturing process. While I have never been to the factory, I think they must have got a good system going to turn out a consistently high quality product for a good price.
There are others that have tried, and failed, at making a Glock.
decodeddiesel
10-02-09, 09:43
Good post.
I would mention the CZ-75B for it's influence on Sig and Beretta (and many others') designs, however it can be directly traced to a combination of 3 and 4, therefore it could be redundant.
I think that you've nicely nailed it, Greg.
Best, Jon
RogerinTPA
10-02-09, 11:53
Agree on your picks Greg. Another nod to the CZ-75B.
#4 should either be (or include) the 75. Just like the 1911, the 75 is widely copied accross the globe. The CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world.
I own early BHP/P35/Inglis barrels that are an exact fit into the slide of the 75b (although the lugs are completely different & don't engage the frame in the same way, plus the frame rails are reversed).
Point is: when the 75 was invented in 1975, it's slide and barrel heavily borrowed from the BHP.
75s are made everywhere including the USA: the Bren10 + Valtor are 75s, and US gunmakers sell 75s including the Armalite AR24, Springfield Armory P9 (dicontinued) and Colt Z40 (discontinued).
Furthermore, 75s are made in China (Norinco 75) Switzerland (Sphynx) Israel (Jericho 941) Italy (tanfoglio) Turkey (Huglu) Brazil (Imbel) and about a dozen other countries.
In terms of numbers and influence, the 75 deserves a spot.
#4 should either be (or include) the 75. Just like the 1911, the 75 is widely copied accross the globe. The CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world.
As much as I like CZ's, has there been any proof of this claim?
Personally, I would put the H&K P7 at number 3 or 4. Can't argue with number 1 or number 2.
The squeeze cocker grip makes this a far safer weapon to carry with one in the chamber than anything out there, and with no safety to operate it's the fastest to bring to bear.
It's also safe because if you're P7 is ever in control of the bad guy few, if any, will know how to shoot you with it. This is why many police forces issued this back in the 80s, the only drawback to this pistol was it's cost....that's why H&K stopped making it and made the USP. H&K had to compete in a marketplace and the P7 was taking a beating because of it's cost.
Take-down and assemble is much faster than anything else as well.
What? No Keltec or Ruger LCRs on the list? :eek: :p
Hunter Rose
10-02-09, 14:47
Personally, I would put the H&K P7 at number 3 or 4. Can't argue with number 1 or number 2.
As much as I love HK and the P7, the list is for most important auto-loaders and not most innovative. All 5 in Greg Bell's list were fielded in much larger numbers than the P7, not to mention they affected pistol development then and for the future. The P7s influence really only lasted for 20-30 years, and it was never as widespead as the other picks.
And, if you think about, pistol technology is really moving away from the finely crafted & intricately complicated design of the P7.
Awesome pistol though.
Hunter Rose
10-02-09, 14:49
What? No Keltec or Ruger LCRs on the list? :eek: :p
I vote for Hi-Points!
PRGGodfather
10-02-09, 15:40
I think Greg hit the nail on the head, as there are a lot of firsts on this one:
* 1911 to be sure -- no other designs have "venerable" in the description, and for influencing designs and shooters alike.
* The 1908 Luger for its influence resulting in the nearly worldwide adoption of the 9mm Luger as an effective duty round, influencing countless other pistol designs.
* The Walther PP / P38 as the first double-action semi-automatic pistols influencing an entire generation of DA/SA pistols.
* The P35 / AKA High Power as the first design using the double-stacked high-capacity magazine, and certainly the first "Wondernine."
* The G17 for breaking the mold as the first real polymer framed pistol, influencing countless others.
If imitation is greatest form of flattery, these designs are truly important -- for the numbers they influenced. 80% were created in the first half of the 20th century -- the Glock being the newcomer in the latter half...
Hard to argue with that list.
As far as CZ75 I could see it in the Top 10 but not in the Top 5.
LanceOregon
10-02-09, 19:04
The Walther PP was the first double action/single action semiautomatic, so it clearly deserves to be on the list. The PPK came later, and was only a variant of it. The PP was the original gun. The P38 is a totally different design, and does not deserve to be in the top 5.
The Luger also does not deserve to be on your list, as it was patented 111 years ago, went into commercial production 109 years ago, and was adopted by German's military 105 years ago. So it easily exceeds your 100 year limitation.
If one removes your 100 year limitation, then the BHP should definitely be replaced on your list with the Mauser C96, as it was the first truly successful semiautomatic pistol.
--
As much as I like CZ's, has there been any proof of this claim?
Here you go: http://www.cz-usa.com
Unfortuately, that link is hardly proof per se-it's merely a link to what essentially is an advertising blurb by CZ itself, and is non-specific beyond the quite generalized categories. I'd be very curious as to which militaries actually utilize the CZ-75.
Best, Jon
crusader377
10-02-09, 19:53
Great list! Agree with every one of them.
Although I think the CZ-75 is a great handgun, I really don't think it is as significant in overall pistol development as the five on the list. It would definitely make it on the top 10 however.
decodeddiesel
10-02-09, 19:53
Unfortuately, that link is hardly proof per se-it's merely a link to what essentially is an advertising blurb by CZ itself, and is non-specific beyond the quite generalized categories. I'd be very curious as to which militaries actually utilize the CZ-75.
Best, Jon
The Czech Army ;)
RogerinTPA
10-02-09, 22:15
As much as I like CZ's, has there been any proof of this claim?
I thought it was widely known and common knowledge. Apparently not.
SWATcop556
10-03-09, 01:39
No complaints here. I own 4 of the 5. Does this make me a warrior? :cool:
If it was of the past 115 years, I would throw in the C96 "Broomhandle" Mauser just because it was successful before the others. :rolleyes:
LanceOregon
10-03-09, 16:20
The Czech Army ;)
Turkey also uses them for their police and military. It was 9mm CZ-75's that killed those Al-Qaeda terrorists that attacked the United States Consulate in Istanbul last year.
The attackers died even though they were only shot with FMJ bullets.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9nTItnS3VNk/SHUUmW5e6YI/AAAAAAAAXrQ/fenLIwfZCxw/s400/turkey+attack+on+Us+consulate+6.jpg
SWATcop556
10-03-09, 22:14
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9nTItnS3VNk/SHUUmW5e6YI/AAAAAAAAXrQ/fenLIwfZCxw/s400/turkey+attack+on+Us+consulate+6.jpg
Guy in the suit is thinking "See, we don't need no stinking 45!" :cool:
IMO the early SIG design (IIRC the P220/BDA) deserves a spot too, especially if one displaces the Luger.
Good list overall, though.
As much as I love HK and the P7, the list is for most important auto-loaders and not most innovative. All 5 in Greg Bell's list were fielded in much larger numbers than the P7, not to mention they affected pistol development then and for the future. The P7s influence really only lasted for 20-30 years, and it was never as widespead as the other picks.
And, if you think about, pistol technology is really moving away from the finely crafted & intricately complicated design of the P7.
Awesome pistol though.
the P7 is cool as hell, but you don't really see aspects of it in other modern pistols like you do with the 1911, glock, ppk, BHP and luger.
the P7 is cool as hell, but you don't really see aspects of it in other modern pistols like you do with the 1911, glock, ppk, BHP and luger.
Yeah, that whole striker-fired action thing was just a fad. :p
My list:
1911 -- Love it or hate it, this is the gun that brought the U.S. into the semiauto pistol world. It's not only withstood the test of time but matured and evolved over almost 100 years to remain at or near the top of most popular handguns.
Walther P-38 -- The granddaddy of DA pistols.
BHP -- The granddaddy of double-stack high-capacity semiautos and well as the granddaddy of the CZ-75 line.
Beretta 92/M9 -- The pistol that started the semiauto trend in LE and popular culture.
Glock -- The pistol that redefined the entire market from a finely handcrafted piece of art to a mass-produced "function is as function does" machine.
I'd consider swapping the SIG P220 for the Beretta, above, because of the innovative locking mechanism which has been adopted by almost every other semiauto handgun ever since.
I'd also give honorable mention to the Walther P99, which began a trend in handgun ergonomics which has completely changed the way people expect a gun to work & fit.
LanceOregon
10-05-09, 20:03
Walther P-38 -- The granddaddy of DA pistols.
But that is really not true, though, as the Walther PP came out 10 years prior to the P38. And versions of the gun like the PPK and PPK/S are still being made to this day
So the Walther PP clearly beats out the P-38 for multiple reasons, in my view. It was the first, and has remained much more popular.
Beretta 92/M9 -- The pistol that started the semiauto trend in LE and popular culture.
You make very sound arguments for the Beretta 92/M9 It probably does deserve to be on the list.
I'd consider swapping the SIG P220 for the Beretta, above, because of the innovative locking mechanism which has been adopted by almost every other semiauto handgun ever since.
I'd also give honorable mention to the Walther P99, which began a trend in handgun ergonomics which has completely changed the way people expect a gun to work & fit.
Both of these guns should definitely make a top 10 list, and deserve recognition.
--
LanceOregon
10-05-09, 20:10
Guy in the suit is thinking "See, we don't need no stinking 45!" :cool:
He might also be pointing to the big hole in the head of the guy lying out in the street. That is where his arm seems to be pointing to. You cannot make out any wounds at all in this distant photo. I actually found a much closer photo of that gunshot wound. But it was way too graphic of an image to link to, so I did not post it
I guess even a lowly 9mm FMJ is not healthy for the anatomy of an Al-Qaeda terrorist.
9mm bullets can definitely cause serious injuries.
--
SWATcop556
10-05-09, 20:27
I agree. My post was more of a poke at the "9mm has no stopping power crowd." :cool:
Here are my top 5 in no particular order (with the exception of #1) as I feel that each one is important in their own right.
1 - The 1911 platform. The "industry standard" for almost 100 years and still going strong.
2 - Browning Hi-Power / CZ 75 - the original and the updated concept.... both have inspired gunmakers to build guns that shot as well as they felt.
3 - Glock 17, etc. The Glock platform is the 1911 of the 21st century. They have become the new industry standard and have established the mark that almost everyone feels they have to hit.
4 - Sig P226 - Like em or not the Sig line of auto pistols was / is for many the essence of perfection.
5 - Ruger Mark I, II, III .22 auto pistols. They may not be sexy but they have been THE .22 auto pistol for as long as I can remember.
variablebinary
10-17-09, 02:02
1. 1911. The measure of all handguns.
2. Luger. I believe this was the first serious autoloader to be military issue. And probably the coolest gun of all time.
3. Walther ppk/P38. Inspired the majority of handguns in service today. If that is good or not is debatable.
4.BHP. The first viable high-capacity handgun. This and #3 combined to make the blueprint for most serious combat handguns.
5. Glock 17. Although little about it was really new (almost everything revolutionary about it was taken from the HK Vp70z) this gun came from nowhere to dominate the police handgun market. Its combination of "so easy a caveman can do it" maintenance and simple (some say too simple) operation has basically made every gun since its introduction little more than a footnote.
Nailed it. Nothing to debate
LanceOregon
10-17-09, 10:40
Nailed it. Nothing to debate
Except that the Walther PP series and P38 are two radically different pistols, designed 10 years apart.
You cannot count two separate pistols as one on a top 5 list.
If you do, then .....
http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/the_eyes_of_fail_are_upon_you_trollcat.jpg
..has someone unleashed the Failure Feline?
sorry I couldn't resist :(
olds442tyguy
10-17-09, 13:29
The first striker fired pistol to see much success (for it's time) was far and away the Colt 1908. Glock didn't steal it from HK, but both HK and Glock stole it from JMB. Glock did take the reigns of striker firing and turn it into the kingpin it has become today.
The 1957 Whitney Wolverine 22LR pistol was also the first polymer pistol to my knowledge. Granted they only made a few with plastic frames due to breakage issues, but they did make them.
Lance Oregon is also correct about the PP series pre-dating the P38. The PP was out in the 1920's, and even the PPK came out in 1931. While the P38 is named off of year, it was only a concept in 1938 and wasn't even fielded until 1939 by the German military.
With the CZ borrowing so much from the HP, I don't think it deserves a place on the top 5.
My only change to Greg's list would be swapping the PP for the P38. I'd place the Colt 1908 at 6th place too, were it not for the last 100 year rule.
varoadking
10-17-09, 16:14
Yeah, that whole striker-fired action thing was just a fad. :p
My list:
1911 -- Love it or hate it, this is the gun that brought the U.S. into the semiauto pistol world. It's not only withstood the test of time but matured and evolved over almost 100 years to remain at or near the top of most popular handguns.
Walther P-38 -- The granddaddy of DA pistols.
BHP -- The granddaddy of double-stack high-capacity semiautos and well as the granddaddy of the CZ-75 line.
Beretta 92/M9 -- The pistol that started the semiauto trend in LE and popular culture.
Glock -- The pistol that redefined the entire market from a finely handcrafted piece of art to a mass-produced "function is as function does" machine.
I'd consider swapping the SIG P220 for the Beretta, above, because of the innovative locking mechanism which has been adopted by almost every other semiauto handgun ever since.
I'd also give honorable mention to the Walther P99, which began a trend in handgun ergonomics which has completely changed the way people expect a gun to work & fit.
I would have given that honor to the S&W Model 39...
That said, I like the other 4 of your choices, and would only change the Beretta to the Ruger .22's. I personally see them as being far more "important" than the B92. If there was no B92 - there would have been something else. Not easy to say that about the rest...
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-17-09, 18:07
Olds,
My only change to Greg's list would be swapping the PP for the P38. I'd place the Colt 1908 at 6th place too, were it not for the last 100 year rule.
Yeah, I should have said PP instead of PPK. But the PPK is just too damn cool.
As far as I am concerned I think the list should look like this
1. 1911
2. 1911
3. 1911
4. 1911
5. Anything else you would like.
I think the 1911 is the one that all other semiautos should look up to. YMMV
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-17-09, 21:35
Lance,
"You cannot count two separate pistols as one on a top 5 list."
Watch me.
http://www.realfreewebsites.com/blog/img/fail2.jpg
Robb Jensen
10-17-09, 22:27
For handguns since this is the handgun forum:
1911, Browning Hi-Power, P38, CZ-75, Glock 17
Beat Trash
10-18-09, 09:28
I guess my list is close to what I have read so far;
1) 1911 - While it has had stuff added, and tweaked some, the basic design is still going strong.
2) P35/Hi Power - Once again, a design used around the world for decades. The design got away from the swivel link used in the 1911, and this is used in most modern designs.
3) Walther PP/PPK - First practical DA pistol. It pre-dated the Walther P38, sharing the same DA trigger system.
4) Glock 17 - Changed the status quo, bringing us polymer frames and striker fired guns. While not the first (Styer GB was, to my knowledge) the Glock 17 was made enough of an impact that many of the newer designs have attempted to compete with it directly (M&P comes to mind).
5) Sig Sauer220 - the Sig barrel locking directly into the ejection port, vs. the locking lugs on the top of the barrel, added a strong, safe, and simple method that is also being used on newer designs.
I did not attempt to place my choices in any order, as they each contributed to handgun evolution in the 20th century. For example some may argue the Glock should be of a higher priority than the P35/Hi Power, or the Sig. But look at the Glock barrel, the barrel locks into the ejection port (Remember the Sig) and the unlocking is done with the system designed on the P35/Hi Power.
If I were to go to a list of "The Top Ten", then I'd have the Walther P38, and the CZ75 on that list.
It would be interesting to read a discussion in 100 years form now, on the same topic. what does the future of handgun design hold for us? Or will handguns in the hands of ordinary individuals only be something people read about in history classes?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-18-09, 09:50
History class. I suspect personal weapons will be a thing of the past for law-abiding citizens within the next 50 years. The increasing urbanization (ie sissyfication) of the citizenry would seem to point in that direction.
I'll throw this one out there: HK USP - the first handgun with a factory rail for accessories.
Joe Mamma
olds442tyguy
10-21-09, 17:51
I'll throw this one out there: HK USP - the first handgun with a factory rail for accessories.
Joe Mamma
Technically that honor would belong to the Mk23. While they were almost developed along side one another, the Mk23 made it out the door before the USP. Not to mention absolutely no one made a light that fit on the USP when it came out. To this day I still wonder why HK thought their "universal" rail would come out ahead of the M1913 rail, or even the Weaver rail which had been used to mount lights even before then.
Technically that honor would belong to the Mk23. While they were almost developed along side one another, the Mk23 made it out the door before the USP. Not to mention absolutely no one made a light that fit on the USP when it came out.
Good point. I stand corrected.
To this day I still wonder why HK thought their "universal" rail would come out ahead of the M1913 rail, or even the Weaver rail which had been used to mount lights even before then.
Typical HK . . .
Joe Mamma
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.