View Full Version : question about ccw
millerlite
10-02-09, 14:20
i usually carry a g26 as my ccw but with winter coming in the northwest i was wondering do anyone else carry a 9mm in winter. I ask this because with everybody wearing heavy coats and thick sweatshirts will the 9mm expand right? I was thinking of switching to my 45 for the season but like carrying the g26 more. If someone could help me out or point me in the right direction would be great. Thanks
geminidglocker
10-02-09, 14:35
I stick with my G26 through the winter.
John_Wayne777
10-02-09, 15:59
I carry my battery of M&P 9mm's throughout the year.
I go from 26 to a 17 or 19 Glk
When I lived in WA I CCW'd my G22 in winter. That said I also carried my G19 and a G26. I also kept it loaded with +P ammo.
i usually carry a g26 as my ccw but with winter coming in the northwest i was wondering do anyone else carry a 9mm in winter. I ask this because with everybody wearing heavy coats and thick sweatshirts will the 9mm expand right? I was thinking of switching to my 45 for the season but like carrying the g26 more. If someone could help me out or point me in the right direction would be great. Thanks
millerlite
10-02-09, 18:29
i use 124gr +p gold dot as my carry ammo and i use the g19 mags so i get acouple of more rounds. I was just wanting to know if its enough to punch through winter clothing. I was always told that a 45 is the [B]only[B] caliber you should carry. Even some friends of mine give me shit for carring a 9mm. I like it and am pretty accurate with it and just wanted to know if other people carry and trust 9mm as their ccw.
Business_Casual
10-02-09, 19:22
FFS - I'll give you a heavy coat if you'll let me shoot at you while you are wearing it.
M_P
i use 124gr +p gold dot as my carry ammo and i use the g19 mags so i get acouple of more rounds.
I was just wanting to know if its enough to punch through winter clothing. I was always told that a 45 is the [B]only[B] caliber you should carry. Even some friends of mine give me shit for carring a 9mm. I like it and am pretty accurate with it and just wanted to know if other people carry and trust 9mm as their ccw.
9mm is good. .45ACP is a much beloved round, but the kind of people that give you shit for not carrying one or tell you that .45 is the only viable caliber are simply full of it.
Hunter Rose
10-02-09, 19:27
124gr +p Gold Dot is more than adequate. All the standard pistol calibers suck about equally and will work if you put the rounds where they need to go. If you are accurate and competent with the G26 carry the 9mm and worry about something else... like how God is going to smote you for not carrying His chosen caliber! :D
During the sub zero temperatures that often go hand in hand with a southern AZ winter, I carry a 1911.
Originally I purchased my G26 as a "summer carry" gun but liked the little bugger so much I carry it year 'round. Of course we don't get sub zero temps here in the Commonwealth of Virginia but I don't feel underpowered with 127gr +p+ ;)
Alpha Sierra
10-02-09, 20:13
. I was always told that a 45 is the [B]only[B] caliber you should carry. Even some friends of mine give me shit for carring a 9mm.
The people who told you that and gave you shit are idiots.
millerlite
10-02-09, 22:46
The people who told you that and gave you shit are idiots.
That is what I keep saying but its the arguement that will never end. I don't know why but alot of people think there is nothing else but .45 ACP. I mean don't get me wrong I own a 1911 and love it to death but i prefer my g26 for carry.
In my experience and observation the 124gr +p Gold Dot, 124gr +p Ranger-T and 147gr HST work just fine through heavy clothing.
I can carry anything I want off duty, I carry my Glock 9mms even on my own time.
FYI, there is a reason the FBI heavy clothing and IWBA 4 layer denim tests exist.
John_Wayne777
10-03-09, 11:59
That is what I keep saying but its the arguement that will never end.
It *should* end because there is actually scientific data out there about how bullets perform through heavy clothing. We have a terminal ballistics forum on M4Carbine.net where one of the world's leading experts in the area of terminal ballistics has posted the results of a great deal of scientific testing and research.
Yet people continue to have these silly arguments.
If you buy one of the 9mm loads recommended for duty use you'll have a round designed to penetrate through heavy clothing while still offering decent expansion.
FFS - I'll give you a heavy coat if you'll let me shoot at you while you are wearing it.
M_P
You're on a roll lately :D
Back to topic... I would highly recommend reading this thread http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887. After that check out the rest of the ballistics section by DocGKR (Dr. Gary Roberts) and you'll have all the information you need to make a well informed decision.
millerlite
10-03-09, 12:34
FFS - I'll give you a heavy coat if you'll let me shoot at you while you are wearing it.
M_P
Thanks for the offer, but I think i gotta pass on it;)
That is what I keep saying but its the arguement that will never end. I don't know why but alot of people think there is nothing else but .45 ACP. I mean don't get me wrong I own a 1911 and love it to death but i prefer my g26 for carry.
Do your friends actually carry .45 autos or do they just talk about it? Many of the most strident .45 proponents end up carrying Keltec .32 or .380's because they are more convenient. If a larger caliber gives you the warm and fuzzys by all means use it but I'll stick with my M&P9 or Glock 19.
"I was just wanting to know if its enough to punch through winter clothing"
millerlite, you aren't actually thinking that 9mm rounds might fail to penetrate winter clothing, are you?
Look at the basics physics behind your question. You are wondering if you would get better performance and penetration by increasing the frontal area and slowing the velocity of your projectile of choice? No, physics doesn't work that way. The faster the bullet, the small the frontal area, the better the penetration. .45 is not going to get you anything more in winter that your 9mm can't already do.
Look at the basics physics behind your question. You are wondering if you would get better performance and penetration by increasing the frontal area and slowing the velocity of your projectile of choice? No, physics doesn't work that way. The faster the bullet, the small the frontal area, the better the penetration. .45 is not going to get you anything more in winter that your 9mm can't already do.
I think the OP was simply worried about failure of expansion of any HP ammo when the bullet has to penetrate through heavy clothing, therefore the argument some make is that one might as well carry a .45 caliber weapon to ensure a bigger wound channel, precisely because it is expected that HP expansion will fail (in the heavy cloth scenario).
But like tpd wrote, there is the 4 layer denim FBI testing standard, and if the bullet does well here, then it ought to be able to expand despite potentially having to negotiate a fluffy winter coat and a turtle neck, but who knows. Maybe Doc can chime in.
millerlite
10-03-09, 20:05
Do your friends actually carry .45 autos or do they just talk about it? Many of the most strident .45 proponents end up carrying Keltec .32 or .380's because they are more convenient. If a larger caliber gives you the warm and fuzzys by all means use it but I'll stick with my M&P9 or Glock 19.
yea they do. one a kimber and one a usp
millerlite
10-03-09, 20:14
I think the OP was simply worried about failure of expansion of any HP ammo when the bullet has to penetrate through heavy clothing, therefore the argument some make is that one might as well carry a .45 caliber weapon to ensure a bigger wound channel, precisely because it is expected that HP expansion will fail (in the heavy cloth scenario).
But like tpd wrote, there is the 4 layer denim FBI testing standard, and if the bullet does well here, then it ought to be able to expand despite potentially having to negotiate a fluffy winter coat and a turtle neck, but who knows. Maybe Doc can chime in.
thats pretty much what i was asking. I asked it because i have heard and read on the internet that 9mm has a tendency to clog when penetrating heavy clothing. With saying that, I dont necessarily believe all the crap i read online. That is why I posted my question on here. I figured that there are enough knowledgeable people on here to either inform me or point me in the right direction to find the information.
LockenLoad
10-03-09, 20:41
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
Notice the clothed gelatin, you have more penetration
( in some instances) just some hard numbers to look at for you, looks like the 9mm is doing great
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
if you want more info
thats pretty much what i was asking. I asked it because i have heard and read on the internet that 9mm has a tendency to clog when penetrating heavy clothing. With saying that, I dont necessarily believe all the crap i read online. That is why I posted my question on here. I figured that there are enough knowledgeable people on here to either inform me or point me in the right direction to find the information.
Well I think that all HP's have a tendency to clog when penetrating clothing, and this is more a function of specific bullet design much more than caliber. An obsolescent .45 HP design will most probably expand much less efficiently, clothing or not actually, than a modern 9mm designed to pass the FBI testing protocols, including the minimum expansion standards after traveling through denim/cloth.
So I'd say that if you are comfy with the 9mm, pick an ammo offering from the recommended list and keep on truckin'.
Maybe a good bullet design would be to use moder HP technology (Gold Dot, Ranger T, HST, Barnes/DPX, etc.) but in a semi wadcutter HP design. That way even if the round doesn't expand (for example if heavy clothing is encountered) the cutting action of the semi wadcutter design might still ensure superior terminal ballistics compared to the round nose type designs that tend to push tissues aside. Just a thought.
Alpha Sierra
10-04-09, 19:55
Hornady's Critical Defense bullets, with the polymer plug in the cavity, looks like a simple and elegant way to defeat the hollow point clogging issue.
i carry a G19 in the winter... i can draw it a little faster and it holds more rounds....
9mm penetrates well.
All of the winter time OISs that I have seen here resulted in recovered bullets that looked remarkably like the ones I have seen shot in the 4 layer denim and heavy clothing tests.
FWIW, the 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T, and the 147gr HST all work very well through heavy clothing.
A typical event for the Gold Dot load would be full expansion of the bullet, cross torso penetration of the bad guy, bullet pops out the far side and is caught in the clothing or drops to the ground.
In some older designs (the Hydrashock 9mms loads were poor police duty ammo in our experience) the bullet can clog, and often did. Now a days I don't worry about it.
All of the winter time OISs that I have seen here resulted in recovered bullets that looked remarkably like the ones I have seen shot in the 4 layer denim and heavy clothing tests.
FWIW, the 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T, and the 147gr HST all work very well through heavy clothing.
A typical event for the Gold Dot load would be full expansion of the bullet, cross torso penetration of the bad guy, bullet pops out the far side and is caught in the clothing or drops to the ground.
In some older designs (the Hydrashock 9mms loads were poor police duty ammo in our experience) the bullet can clog, and often did. Now a days I don't worry about it.
interesting..thanks for the info
i only carry a .45 for ccw, mainly b.c the only two handguns i own are both 45, lol. Its my personal preference for a defense round, but if you are comfortable with the 9mm and are proficient with it.....well then carry on. I like the bigger round, but any gun is better than no gun...
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