View Full Version : S.A.W. reliabilty package ?
Thomas M-4
10-03-09, 22:59
I saw this a while back and forgot about it. What is the S.A.W. reliabilty package out of curiosity?
From there web site:
RELIABILITY PACKAGE - Colt AR-15/M16/M4 $150
This small group of proprietary modifications and upgraded parts was designed to ensure flawless operation under adverse conditions and to allow the system to perform at its optimum.
The Package includes:
* 4 to 6 barrel modifications (depending on barrel type)
* 3 gas system modifications
* 2 bolt group modifications
* Buffer assembly and other lower receiver parts
The M16 is one of the most reliable designs ever produced and the Colt Factory builds an extremely high quality product; however, even the best can often be better.
Which website and what is S.A.W?
Sounds alot like marketing.
Hunter Rose
10-04-09, 21:24
A reliability package on an AR-15? Come on, we're not talking about a super tight 1911 or something. Buy a high quality AR and it will run. It doesn't need modifications and gunsmithing to get to that state.
Buy a spare BCM BCG for $150, that sounds more like an AR reliability package to me.
Jay Cunningham
10-04-09, 21:29
Ken Elmore is one of the most experienced Colt AR-15 armorers in the country.
Thomas M-4
10-04-09, 21:49
Here is the page> http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Services_AR_15-201-0.html
Just interested in what exactly is the reliability package I have a few Idea's on some of it other I have no clue.
variablebinary
10-04-09, 22:00
One of the great things about seeing the AR15 industry grow is the ample supply of quality parts from a variety of vendors.
At one time SAW, which specializes in Colt parts, was the only game in town. They knew it, and they acted like it.
Based upon past experiences, and I am talking 4+ years ago, I'd rather deal with Bravo, Rainier, JTAC and Grant.
Ken Elmore is one of the most experienced Colt AR-15 armorers in the country.
Exactly, and I'll not flippantly discount anything he says - or does. I believe ALL systems can be improved - including the AR-15. I notice that his modifications are PROPRIETARY but we know the weak link in the design is EXTRACTION or what the end user will observe is intermittent extraction. There are many ways to address this problem and I believe many have been discussed and are known. I'm dead certain that ejector spring, extractor assembly, buffer assembly and recoil spring tension is where he "does his magic". What might he do to the extractor geometry is not known but just like with pistols it is a contributor. I also suspect that he checks/verifies chamber dimensions and check the bolt face for being true.
I'd love to sit and discuss this with him in private.
Just as an FYI, Ken is no longer a Colt dealer or authorized armorer.
C4
Thomas M-4
10-04-09, 22:09
One of the great things about seeing the AR15 industry grow is the ample supply of quality parts from a variety of vendors.
At one time SAW, which specializes in Colt parts, was the only game in town. They knew it, and they acted like it.
Based upon past experiences, and I am talking 4+ years ago, I'd rather deal with Bravo, Rainier, JTAC and Grant.
I own LMT so I doubt that Ken would touch it. Nore do I have any intentions of sending it any where for reliability work. It works just fine thank you:cool:
I was merely out of curiosity wanted to know what was the S.A.W. reliability work.
I am sure that the bolt group modifications are upgraded extractor spring.
The buffer assemble I am guessing is an H-2 buffer swap.
The 3 gas system modifications I have no clue??
The 4 to 6 barrel modifications (depending on barrel type] I have no clue what that would be either.
is there some bone of contention between elmore and LMT?
Thomas M-4
10-04-09, 22:18
is there some bone of contention between elmore and LMT?
I think he only works on Colts.
http://www.specializedarmament.com/content/skins/flat/popup_issue_98.html
Thomas M-4
10-04-09, 22:41
Exactly, and I'll not flippantly discount anything he says - or does. I believe ALL systems can be improved - including the AR-15. I notice that his modifications are but we know the weak link in the design is EXTRACTION or what the end user will observe is intermittent extraction. There are many ways to address this problem and I believe many have been discussed and are known. I'm dead certain that ejector spring, extractor assembly, buffer assembly and recoil spring tension is where he "does his magic". What might he do to the extractor geometry is not known but just like with pistols it is a contributor. I also suspect that he checks/verifies chamber dimensions and check the bolt face for being true.
I'd love to sit and discuss this with him in private.
PROPRIETARY < That is what is probably going to kill my attempt at finding out exactly what it is he does :rolleyes: I like the way Dan Burwell ideas on the matter he doesn't mind showing you or explaining what he does he tells you you pay for his workmanship/skill.
Just as an FYI, Ken is no longer a Colt dealer or authorized armorer.
C4
Wow, that is big news. That is like saying Babe Ruth is no longer a Yankee, that is all.:eek:
is there some bone of contention between elmore and LMT?
No, he has made his living by pressing the concept of Colt above all other manufacturers. He sell more Colt parts than most other companies put together, and maintains a stock pile of parts larger than Colt (this info is a few years old).
After going through his Colt armorer courses several times, it was evident that he was not happy with Colt for a few different reasons. He made it very clear in his classes that everything was his, the materials, the equipment, and the knowledge to produce the Colt armorer course, and pointed out several times that he was unhappy with the factory.
Ken also gives the impression when he taught the course that rebarreling the AR15 is a difficult process and one that armorers will most likely never be able to do on their own. He pushes that any barrel changes should be sent to his shop, and was not willing to discuss barrel changing in any detail in the classes I was in. Other Colt instructors were much more willing to go over the info, and walked the class through the basics, though it was never done as a hands on activity for each of the students.
Ken is a unique person, abrasive to some, loved by others, and very knowledgeable. I don't doubt that some of his upgrades are items he has in stock, but I would also guess that his attention to detail is in overdrive and bordering on OCD when he does his reliability package.
Love Ken or hate him, he has encyclopedic knowledge and rare expertise in the system. Ken is a straight talking, no BS kind of guy. If you're feelings are easily hurt, you should not call him. If you need your Colt fixed, need parts, or need to make some obscure configuration work, he's your guy.
Ken has and does take in other brands for work. Depends on what it is and who you are. It helps if both are top end.
Wow, that is big news. That is like saying Babe Ruth is no longer a Yankee, that is all.:eek:
Yes. So I am wondering what AR parts he will sell once he runs out of Colt parts.
He has not been an authorized Colt armorer for years now (if that means anything to you).
Ken did not see eye to eye with Colt LE and he was selling certain parts that made them unhappy I think.
C4
IIRC part of the issue had to do with the lack of support from Colt for the armorers program. I am getting ready to do my recert starting tomorrow and it is being run by Colt. I will report back on it and compare it to the other 3 times that I have been through it.
Also, I recall a conversation that Ken and I had where he was a little unhappy with some of the personnel being put in charge at Colt and I believe that had alot to do with it as well.
Yes. So I am wondering what AR parts he will sell once he runs out of Colt parts.
He has not been an authorized Colt armorer for years now (if that means anything to you).
Ken did not see eye to eye with Colt LE and he was selling certain parts that made them unhappy I think.
C4
Just as an FYI, Ken is no longer a Colt dealer or authorized armorer.
C4
Grant,
Ken's website still indicates that they are a factory direct source for colt parts. Also, talking with Ken several weeks ago, he still is a Colt Dealer. He just no longer deals with the training side of things.
At one time SAW, which specializes in Colt parts, was the only game in town. They knew it, and they acted like it.
Based upon past experiences, and I am talking 4+ years ago, I'd rather deal with Bravo, Rainier, JTAC and Grant.
None of those companies deal Colt parts. There is nothing bad about them but, SAW and Brownells still are the only two sources for Colt parts.
So what is your point?
Wow, that is big news. That is like saying Babe Ruth is no longer a Yankee, that is all.:eek:
Ken stopped teaching Colt Armorer courses, but thats not the same as him no longer being a Colt dealer. I'm not sure where that info has come from, but is not correct as far as I know.
Ken stopped teaching Colt Armorer courses, but thats not the same as him no longer being a Colt dealer. I'm not sure where that info has come from, but is not correct as far as I know.
Check your PM.
C4
Grant,
Ken's website still indicates that they are a factory direct source for colt parts. Also, talking with Ken several weeks ago, he still is a Colt Dealer. He just no longer deals with the training side of things.
Sure, but he is out of the LE program and if you notice, parts are increasingly becoming "out of stock" on his website.
Give it some more time and you will most likely see nothing in stock (unless he has a buddy there or another LE dealer that is helping him out on the side).
C4
Sure, but he is out of the LE program and if you notice, parts are increasingly becoming "out of stock" on his website.
Give it some more time and you will most likely see nothing in stock (unless he has a buddy there or another LE dealer that is helping him out on the side).
C4
Wow, that's too bad.
I also took Elmores AR15 class. I was yelled at quite a few times, but I learned a lot. I could never figure out why he wouldn't even touch on barrel changes.
I hope he's doing well in this economy.
I could never figure out why he wouldn't even touch on barrel changes.
Coming from what I have seen with most people, I can't blame him too bad.
Most people do not have the finesse or mechanical motor skills to remove a barrel without messing up the barrel nut teeth. By messing up the teeth, I mean even the lightest of distortion or marks which would not pass for a factory job.
It takes some decent amount of practice to do with and get the proper feel with the tools.
You cannot learn how to do this a few times in a class sitting a chair. You have to start working on your own guns to get this down.
What is so mystical about a barrel change?
What is so mystical about a barrel change?
1. People cannot get the wrench on square to the barrel nut or cannot get it pushed on all the way.
2. They use the improper wrench (3 prong) which doesn't distribute the torque over several teeth.
3. They can't get stuck barrels loose so they take a mallet to the wrench and distort teeth.
4. They tighten the upper vice block too tight in the vice and this distorts the threaded boss of the front of the upper receiver into a slight oval which makes barrel removal harder.
5. They don't use the proper grease or any at all. They use locktite on the barrel nut.
6. Pipe wrench or channel lock pliers on the barrel nut.
7. Propane torch on barrel nut.
8. Putting the upper in the freezer and then taking it out, water condenses on it, rust forms on barrel.
9. They use the clam shell vice blocks without putting a shop rag in between it and the upper. Failure to do this causes those rectangular scuff marks above the ejection port that look like shit and scream amateur.
10. They use a 1/2 drive breaker bar in the wrench which moves the center of torque 2" away from the centerline of the barrel. This pulls the wrench off the barrel nut and bends teeth. They should use a cheater pipe over the handle of the wrench instead.
This is just some of the more common things that idiots do.
Was there ever a conclusion, or rather any info at all regarding what the actual Reliability Package offered?
Thomas M-4
10-07-09, 23:37
Was there ever a conclusion, or rather any info at all regarding what the actual Reliability Package offered?
I wish:rolleyes::confused:
Al U. 5811
10-08-09, 01:01
There is nothing mystical about a barrel change. Proper tools, training, and techniques are the key, and read the damn, FM, TM, or factory manual. Torque specs are used for a reason.
As Scotty has stated people do some really stupid things. I agree with that x 10. I have seen armorers do stupid things. Now I know for a fact that they went through the same training that I did, but it still happens. Cutting corners, using substandard equipment, and just overall laziness and lack of knowledge are the common denominator here.
As for what Mr. Elmore does, I can't speak of it. I have never seen a reliability job of his. Would I pay for it without the slightest clue of what is being done to my firearm? No. However some swear by his work, so that has to mean something to those that are seeing value in paying for it. YMMV. But I'll put $150 somewhere else.
Would I pay for it without the slightest clue of what is being done to my firearm? No.
Exactly. I don't care who you are, if you won't tell me what you're doing to my weapon, you don't need my money.
People have the mistaken impression that putting together an AR is like putting together legos. It isn't. It isn't rocket science, but it is easy to screw up regardless of what an internet how-to post might assert.
Having some training, experience, the right tools, a TM, and heeding the advisories within are important.
I wish:rolleyes::confused:
Seriously, I've been lurking in this thread for a week now hoping I would find out...
Damn, #9 got me, well now I know.
Belmont31R
10-08-09, 13:49
Exactly. I don't care who you are, if you won't tell me what you're doing to my weapon, you don't need my money.
I feel the same way.
I think he can say what he does without laying out the tools or techniques.
Not about to send an expensive part to someone to do "something" to it.
I don’t like the idea of “proprietary”.
Hello,
I only use Genuine COLT Factory Parts and I buy them from S.A.W., so naturally, I got worried when I read the thread and went right to Ken.
The bottom line is: Specialized Armament Customers have nothing to worry about, SA and COLT still do business and the only reason some parts were briefly out of stock was due to people simply over running the supply system earlier this year. Now, that the rush has slowed, virtually everything is in stock in quantity.
Hello,
I only use Genuine COLT Factory Parts and I buy them from S.A.W., so naturally, I got worried when I read the thread and went right to Ken.
The bottom line is: Specialized Armament Customers have nothing to worry about, SA and COLT still do business and the only reason some parts were briefly out of stock was due to people simply over running the supply system earlier this year. Now, that the rush has slowed, virtually everything is in stock in quantity.
Good to hear!
Hello,
I only use Genuine COLT Factory Parts and I buy them from S.A.W., so naturally, I got worried when I read the thread and went right to Ken.
The bottom line is: Specialized Armament Customers have nothing to worry about, SA and COLT still do business and the only reason some parts were briefly out of stock was due to people simply over running the supply system earlier this year. Now, that the rush has slowed, virtually everything is in stock in quantity.
Interesting. Colt has three types of accounts (Military, Commercial and LE). Ken does not fall under Military and has been removed as an LE dealer. So that leaves commercial. My understanding of the commercial program is that you cannot buy "parts" from them and for sure cannot get LE marked guns (6520, 6920, etc).
C4
Rest assured folks, Specialized Armament hasn't been removed from anything.
http://www.colt.com/law/downloads/Distributors.pdf
Rest assured folks, Specialized Armament hasn't been removed from anything.
http://www.colt.com/law/downloads/Distributors.pdf
When was the last time that info was updated?
I have been a S&W LE Dealer for two years and I am STILL not on their website: https://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/DealerLocatorView?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&categoryId=&langId=-1&CityState=0&showAll=1&loc=44656
I am not saying that you are wrong, but what you are stating contradicts what I have been told.
C4
Submariner
10-10-09, 15:53
Interesting.... Ken... has been removed an LE dealer.
Got a source for that?
Got a source for that?
Nope, just thought I would make it up. ;)
Yes, of course I do.
Edited to add, my info is several months old. A lot can happen in that time frame so maybe he is back on as an LE Dealer. Who knows in the gun business.
C4
variablebinary
10-10-09, 19:01
What is so mystical about a barrel change?
Nothing if you own a MRP, XCR, ACR, or SCAR
Thank God for progress
As for re-barreling an AR15, like anything else, you get better at it the more you do it
Nothing if you own a MRP, XCR, ACR, or SCAR
What an intelligent comment that is relevant to the discussion.
:rolleyes:
Here is the deal.
I have ordered $400 worth of stuff from SAW in the past 2 months and all of it has has been current production stuff by the tool marks and other manufacturing features on the parts.
So if they have been removed as a Colt dealer I would like to hear evidence that supports this instead of a bunch of hearsay IM backdoor bullshit.
Instead of all the bullshit speculating about whether Ken is or isn't a dealer, let's focus on the original issue. If he doesn't wish to reveal what he does that is his prerogative. If you don't want to drop the coin on it, then by all means don't.
Here is the deal.
I have ordered $400 worth of stuff from SAW in the past 2 months and all of it has has been current production stuff by the tool marks and other manufacturing features on the parts.
So if they have been removed as a Colt dealer I would like to hear evidence that supports this instead of a bunch of hearsay IM backdoor bullshit.
Ken could be going direct, getting parts from another LE dealer or has a "buddy" at Colt. Either way, I could care less.
G&R & SAW do business together from time to time and I have no issues with Ken.
I was simply advising folks what I was told by a high Colt employee.
What I find interesting is that Colt cut one of their biggest fans (or is telling people they have) and someone that has also made Colt look good.
C4
contractual restrictions and limitations aside,
S.A.W. is good to go in my experience.
they are among the top few on my list.
i concur with scott's assessment of recent stock.
and i am not telling what goes into my reliability package either.
i shouldn't have to.
the proof will be the absence of any malfunctions.
a squared away rifle gives more satisfaction than a bit of money
or information for that matter.
wrt what grant has said:
as far as colt goes, i wouldn't put anything past them, they are a corporate group.
contractual restrictions and limitations aside, S.A.W. is good to go in my experience. they are among the top few on my list.
i concur with scott's assessment of recent stock.
and i am not telling what goes into my reliability package either.
i shouldn't have to. the proof will be the absence of any malfunctions.
a squared away rifle gives more satisfaction than a bit of money
or information for that matter.
wrt what grant has said: as far as colt goes, i wouldn't put anything past them, they are a corporate group.
Agreed. I think what goes into the package can be deduced but as you already know experience trumps even the best intentioned engineering deductions.
Thanks for the service!
a squared away rifle gives more satisfaction than a bit of money
or information for that matter.
???
Really? Not for me. If I get the Super Dooper Awesome Fix for my car that costs 5,000 dollars, and then when I ask them what they did to it, they tell me "it's secret but it works better", well I'm gonna be a little pissed. I honestly can not wrap my head around your logic at all. What if Barrel Fix #3 is to apply fairy dust in liberal quantities?
Heavy Metal
10-11-09, 13:40
The only way this mystery will be solved is if someone dissassembles a colt and mikes, guages and photos it and then reassembles it and send it in.
Then dissassembles it and measures it again.
The only way this mystery will be solved is if someone dissassembles a colt and mikes, guages and photos it and then reassembles it and send it in.
Then dissassembles it and measures it again.
Yes, but you KNOW:
Gas port diameter (is it the proper diameter, chamfered, consistent??)
Check the buffer assembly
Verify the recoil spring weight
Extractor and Ejector spring tensions
Extractor shape
Extractor buffer
Chamber and headspace verification
Verify dimensions of bolt (maybe, maybe not)
And you've gone a long way determining if your carbine is "proper" right?
variablebinary
10-11-09, 20:25
Any and all mods made to a weapon should be fully disclosed prior to any services being performed.
All you have to do is simply not purchase his service/ upgrade. Pretty simple.
???
Really? Not for me. If I get the Super Dooper Awesome Fix for my car that costs 5,000 dollars, and then when I ask them what they did to it, they tell me "it's secret but it works better", well I'm gonna be a little pissed. I honestly can not wrap my head around your logic at all. What if Barrel Fix #3 is to apply fairy dust in liberal quantities?
To the best of my knowledge Ken is the only who does this correct? So why should he reveal what he does thereby allowing some backyard armorer clown the opportunity to steal what he is doing? I wouldn't disclose it either. I am fairly certain that if someone wanted the work done, that Ken would probably give you an idea of what he is doing without giving it all away.
Any and all mods made to a weapon should be fully disclosed prior to any services being performed.
I feel that "what" and "how" are two different things. Wouldn't you agree?
I think I made my thoughts pretty clear.
I feel that "what" and "how" are two different things. Wouldn't you agree?
Any and all mods made to a weapon should be fully disclosed prior to any services being performed.
No.
I trust my gunsmiths (and I include Elmore in this, as I own one of his carbines) to sell me a rifle that works. How that occurs is beyond the scope of my interest. Simply put, I don't care anymore.
I haven't actually seen Ken in years. Whenever I've been by S.A.W., he's always been in the back.
I was starting to wonder if he was even alive. :p
He probably has illegal Colt elves working there while he is on the road.
I haven't actually seen Ken in years. Whenever I've been by S.A.W., he's always been in the back.
I was starting to wonder if he was even alive. :p
Outlander Systems
10-12-09, 16:14
I was stoked thinking that there was a civvy/semi-only M249 released.
What a buzzkill.
He probably has illegal Colt elves working there while he is on the road.
I did see him on the history channel.... demonstrating the M16 vs. the M14 in full auto.
hey mcmanus,
you're a funny guy, ha...
what i said is absolutely true. satisfaction.
with a mind like yours you are likely to be sent away carrying all your
needs in both hands. and your demands wrapped around your neck...
seriously, there is no need for secrets. i doubt that what you percieve as secret is actually so. i would describe the situation as selective.
hey mcmanus,
you're a funny guy, ha...
what i said is absolutely true. satisfaction.
with a mind like yours you are likely to be sent away carrying all your
needs in both hands. and your demands wrapped around your neck...
seriously, there is no need for secrets. i doubt that what you percieve as secret is actually so. i would describe the situation as selective.
Thanks for the compliment man! I don't take offense at all to you jabbing me regarding the fact that I like to know how things work, and what I am actually paying for.
I've only been watching this thread to see if I can learn something, and I have. I don't have any needs that I am not capable of meeting at the moment. Glad your happy with your wonder fix.
hey mcmanus,
"I don't have any needs that I am not capable of meeting at the moment. "
right on!
that's a good place to be.
you were already there.
Thanks for the compliment man! I don't take offense at all to you jabbing me regarding the fact that I like to know how things work, and what I am actually paying for.
I've only been watching this thread to see if I can learn something, and I have. I don't have any needs that I am not capable of meeting at the moment. Glad your happy with your wonder fix.
As a gunsmith, I get asked by customers all the time about "what I did" to improve the reliability of the weapon. Since they are paying, they get told.
Now if it is some secret squirrel type thing that I don't want anyone to know, I will still explain it to them in relative terms (as to not give away any trade secrets).
IMHO, if someone is going to use a weapon for defensive purposes, I think they kind of have the right to know what is going on it. Imagine one of those village idiots you see at gun shows telling you that they will "improve your AR" for $500 and not tell you what they did. Did they actually do anything? Who knows.
Ken get's a pass as he is going to do what he says he is going to do, but I would not give that kind of pass to just anyone.
In regards to the AR's reliability, the MAIN problem with the weapon is/was the magazine. With the new mags on the market (PMAG, TD ARC, Lancer) a lot of the old feeding issues are a thing of the past. Now, if the weapon malfunctions, it is because of stupid user tricks (not cleaning or lubricatin the weapon, not doing PM's on the springs or shooting crap ammo).
C4
As a gunsmith, I get asked by customers all the time about "what I did" to improve the reliability of the weapon. Since they are paying, they get told...C4
Are you offering gunsmith services now too Grant?
Are you offering gunsmith services now too Grant?
We have for years (just don't advertise it).
C4
Check out the latest issue of Combat Tactics magazine. In one of the articles, a well respected industry professional discusses the value in Elmore's reliaility package.
Al U. 5811
11-13-09, 12:44
Darryl Bolke manages to slip in something about Ken and SAW sales in every article he writes. I guess they're buddies.
Check out the latest issue of Combat Tactics magazine. In one of the articles, a well respected industry professional discusses the value in Elmore's reliaility package.
For those of us who could not get the magazine, could you summarize what was in it ? Thanks.
Al U. 5811
11-19-09, 18:03
He did a write up on the 6940 and a sidebar about his personal 6920 modded by SAW.
William B.
11-20-09, 07:34
I was stoked thinking that there was a civvy/semi-only M249 released.
What a buzzkill.
There is, but it'll cost you.
https://www.desertord.com/main/en/shop/browse?cid=2
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