View Full Version : Colt And BCm color match
I got the colt LE6920 lower and I'm thinking about the BCM upper will the color match? how about LMT upper?
yep- both will be black. guaranteed.
SWATcop556
10-04-09, 05:22
yep- both will be black. guaranteed.
:D:D:D
No offense to the OP but it seems a lot of shooters are really beginning to focus on the color of their upper and lower matching and being worried about "slop" or "play" between the two. I guess I'm just not worrying about the same shit.
FWIW all of my LMT gear has had a purple-ish shade to it. But then again I'm not a "fit and finish" guy.
Well the finish on a weapon is important to people that do not use it as a duty weapon, people just like to have nice looking stuff when they drop $1000+ on a weapon.
Would you buy a car that has paint on the doors that doesnt match the rest of the car? The car drives the same, so it should not be an issue.
ThirdWatcher
10-04-09, 06:59
If it's such a concern, buy a BCM lower. I bought a BCM lower for my BCM upper but I'm kind of a purist...
I really wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes new Colts have uppers and lowers that aren't perfect matches either. It happens.
Well the finish on a weapon is important to people that do not use it as a duty weapon, people just like to have nice looking stuff when they drop $1000+ on a weapon.
And AR15.com is the perfect forum for people who are into weapon "looks". Not so much here.
SWATcop556
10-04-09, 14:18
And AR15.com is the perfect forum for people who are into weapon "looks". Not so much here.
Beat me to it. Thank you. :cool:
Patrick Aherne
10-04-09, 15:37
I have purpleish stuff from Colt's, Larue, LMT and Bushmaster. All of it gets scratched and used. The color doesn't change how they go bang.
As mentioned, even if you get a complete gun- upper and lower already attached- there's no guarantee of hue match. the anodize tank determines the hue, and they change out the tanks with regularity- so hues change with regularity.
not trying to be a dick- just letting you, and everyone else, know how I personally feel about this question: this is the single the gayest thing anyone ever asks around here... and people have a real hard time answering it.
so now that we've all had a chance to rip on you, and you think we're all a bunch of A-holes (and we may very well be), get over it and enjoy the forum for what it is: a technical resource. Welcome to the forum. :)
...and you think we're all a bunch of A-holes (and we may very well be)
I am getting a lot of this lately.
Anyway, don't sweat the question. No big deal.
Bill Bryant
10-04-09, 16:27
Go to a museum and look at the artwork on medieval swords and shields. Warriors have always combined bad*ss functionality (anybody think they'd rather be hit by a few rounds of 5.56mm than by the business edge of a Scottish claymore or Zweihander?) with aesthetic embellishment and symbolism. It isn't "gay" to want your personal weapon to be both deadly and aesthetically satisfying. It's human, and it's part of a great legacy of righteous violence in defence of the innocent. Zombies and nameless, mass-produced clones don't care about having art engraved on their blades. Men are warrior poets who go into battle with a song on their lips and rose carved into their sword hilts.
Go to a museum and look at the artwork on medieval swords and shields. Warriors have always combined bad*ss functionality (anybody think they'd rather be hit by a few rounds of 5.56mm than by the business edge of a Scottish claymore or Zweihander?) with aesthetic embellishment and symbolism. It isn't "gay" to want your personal weapon to be both deadly and aesthetically satisfying. It's human, and it's part of a great legacy of righteous violence in defence of the innocent. Zombies and namesless clones don't care about having art inscribed on their blades. Men are warrior poets who go into battle with a song on their lips and rose carved into their sword hilts.
i'm gonna have to seriously disagree with this... the armor and weapons that survived to be shown in museums are those of people who didn't actually use them- hence they survived. the only warriors, throughout history, who've put aesthetic value in weaponry, are the rich- who also did most of the writing, but they didn't do most of the fighting.
the professional warrior generally did NOT embellish his weaponry with scrollwork and jewels and crap. in fact, though i can't cite sources, i can remember reading about mercenaries from the middle ages making fun of gay assholes with scrollwork and jewels and accents and crap on their weapons and armor.
Milton is fantasy, remember?
Bill Bryant
10-04-09, 16:43
i'm gonna have to seriously disagree with this... the armor and weapons that survived to be shown in museums are those of people who didn't actually use them- hence they survived. the only warriors, throughout history, who've put aesthetic value in weaponry, are the rich- who also did most of the writing, but they didn't do most of the fighting.
the professional warrior generally did NOT embellish his weaponry with scrollwork and jewels and crap. in fact, though i can't cite sources, i can remember reading about mercenaries from the middle ages making fun of gay assholes with scrollwork and jewels and accents and crap on their weapons and armor.
Milton is fantasy, remember?I would welcome your correction of my view if you can back it up. So far both of us are just spouting our notions without substantiation. Post some links. I'll read them, evaluate their legitimacy, and post a retraction of my original assertion if persuaded.
Maybe it's just a difference in what one considers ornate, decorated, or what they think makes a good looking weapon. I like a nice clean weapon that matches. They will sit in my gun safe until they become well used, broken in and develop character, or they will get traded off on something that will. I can afford some nice blasters, but I can't afford to be a "collector", or to justify blasters that don't don't do anything but look nice.
My ideas of decoration are some really ornate, rattle can patterns, character flaws (scratches, dings, and honest use), or even burlap or plastic tied onto my rifle.
I would welcome your correction of my view if you can back it up. So far both of us are just spouting our notions without substantiation. Post some links. I'll read them, evaluate their legitimacy, and post a retraction of my original assertion if persuaded.
i'm sure both of us can spend a few hours searching around the net and pull out exerpts and accounts to support either of our views.
i think its safe to say that there have always been warriors who wanted "pretty" weapons, and there have always been warriors who scoffed at that.
BravoCompanyUSA
10-04-09, 17:33
Well the finish on a weapon is important to people that do not use it as a duty weapon, people just like to have nice looking stuff when they drop $1000+ on a weapon.
Would you buy a car that has paint on the doors that doesnt match the rest of the car? The car drives the same, so it should not be an issue.
A comparison of an AR15 or BCM to a new car is not at all an accurate analogy. I am not picking on you. This analogy is made all the time, but wrong is wrong no matter how many times it is said.
Maybe compare it to a bulldozer, an end loader, or carpenters 16oz claw hammer. Would the owner of an excavation company be upset with his purchase because his caterpillar door paint was a couple shades different than the yellow on his bucket? Would a carpenter return his hammer because there is a non symmetrical machining mark on the waffle face of the hammer? No of course not. They made their purchase for professional use.
The AR15 (and BCM) is a military grade rifle made to be durable product that can be mass produced from forgings, with minimal machining, and then coated with an industrial grade finish, all for a reasonable price (relatively speaking). These were not built to be family heirlooms handed down from father to son to grandson, each generation spending their free time rubbing on it to preserve its’ luster. Family heirloom firearms are made from machining metal stock, have blued, etched, and painted finishes, with stocks of rich hardwoods with a high gloss. Take time to know which part of the firearms industry is building for which part of the marketplace. And take time to know which part you are in.
Since Obamamania, a ton of new shooters have jumped into the AR15 market, with product expectations that are quite frankly completely wrong. I will actually go so far as to say this. If looking for your first AR15, do NOT buy a BCM. It was not built for you. It was built for professional use. The professional types who lay down $1000, $2000, and even $3000+ on their set up, and could give a shit what Martha Stewart thinks of their new tool. Their focus is to (ours as well) own a product than can endure many hours, many rounds, of training and they feel confident can go the distance in the fight. These are folks concentrate their efforts on becoming more proficient in their gun fighting skills. As a prior service Marine I can assure you I was no more worried about the color black on my M16 than the color black on my E-Tool. All I knew was my M16 was 8 lbs and my E-Tool weighed about 3lbs less. Now if I was to get shot at, the M16 would become much more interesting than the E-Tool, but it would not be because of how cool it looked in the safe. Just tools of the trade.
What a new shooter should do is buy the least expensive AR15 they can get. Plink with it for a while; see what they like, what they don’t like. If they have replaced parts or broken parts at inopportune times, and they still want to move to the next level of skill and proficiency, then look to a professional grade gun like BCM or others.
I wouldn't buy a car from Honda and then the doors from Toyota- which is really what we are talking about. If you want a pretty matching weapon purchase a complete Colt, DD, LMT, etc... because that is probably the only real guarantee.
Chances are that they will be close, but not always 100%. BTW- this has been discussed here more than enough so no need to beat it to death.
I would be more concerened with an AR that works rather than which shade of black it is.
Well the finish on a weapon is important to people that do not use it as a duty weapon, people just like to have nice looking stuff when they drop $1000+ on a weapon.
Would you buy a car that has paint on the doors that doesnt match the rest of the car? The car drives the same, so it should not be an issue.
What a new shooter should do is buy the least expensive AR15 they can get. Plink with it for a while; see what they like, what they don’t like. If they have replaced parts or broken parts at inopportune times, and they still want to move to the next level of skill and proficiency, then look to a professional grade gun like BCM or others.
gonna have to completely dissagree with this, as well... no shooter- new or old- should sell himself short of a POS that's not worth the money they dropped on it.
i get the point you're trying to make- it's the same point i attempt to make every time this topic comes up... professional grade weapons are not pretty. I have little experience with BCM, but Colt and LMT, for instance, are sloppy- tool marks and forge flash abound, and it's not uncommon to get uppers and lowers with different hues. but they run, and keep running- and that's exactly what you buy LMT, Colt, and BCM for.
You are correct. The single most important thing is that the weapon goes bang when you pull the trigger.
As mentioned, even if you get a complete gun- upper and lower already attached- there's no guarantee of hue match. the anodize tank determines the hue, and they change out the tanks with regularity- so hues change with regularity.
not trying to be a dick- just letting you, and everyone else, know how I personally feel about this question: this is the single the gayest thing anyone ever asks around here... and people have a real hard time answering it.
so now that we've all had a chance to rip on you, and you think we're all a bunch of A-holes (and we may very well be), get over it and enjoy the forum for what it is: a technical resource. Welcome to the forum. :)
A comparison of an AR15 or BCM to a new car is not at all an accurate analogy.....
This is probably the best answer I've seen to the question about color match and I think it should be part of the technical stickies (not that anyone actually reads them first). I disagree with not buying a BCM/Colt/LMT first though, but only because I wasted money myself the first time around on tier 3 weapons/accessories before I got my shit together.
BravoCompanyUSA
10-04-09, 17:52
gonna have to completely dissagree with this, as well... no shooter- new or old- should sell himself short of a POS that's not worth the money they dropped on it.
i get the point you're trying to make- it's the same point i attempt to make every time this topic comes up... professional grade weapons are not pretty. I have little experience with BCM, but Colt and LMT, for instance, are sloppy- tool marks and forge flash abound, and it's not uncommon to get uppers and lowers with different hues. but they run, and keep running- and that's exactly what you buy LMT, Colt, and BCM for.
I actually agree with you, but some would argue (and I am kind of saying) the money dropped is worth the lesson learned. Hard lesson to learn, but those are the most impactfull ones.
Hard lesson to learn, but those are the most impactfull ones.
No doubt about it.
I actually agree with you, but some would argue (and I am kind of saying) the money dropped is worth the lesson learned. Hard lesson to learn, but those are the most impactful ones.
Good point.
CTBuilder1
10-04-09, 18:23
I actually agree with you, but some would argue (and I am kind of saying) the money dropped is worth the lesson learned. Hard lesson to learn, but those are the most impactfull ones.
It's an expensive lesson to learn. I think a lot of us have been down that road too. The price difference between substandard parts and quality is really not that big. It amazes me why so many people want to cut corners. It amazes me more how many people want to justify those corners cut with the "just as good as" BS.
For some people it's just a matter of not knowing, for others it's a matter of not believing (I guess). My first gun was a Bushmaster XM15. I bought it because the guy at the gunstore told me that they were all the same. I'd like to think I have come a long way in my undertsanding since then.
Bill Bryant
10-04-09, 18:42
If looking for your first AR15, do NOT buy a BCM. It was not built for you. I just dropped about $800.00 on parts from BCM to complete my first AR build. I put this rifle together for my son, who goes to USMC boot camp in June, because I want him to be able to easily assemble and disassemble it with his eyes closed, consistently hit small targets with it, clean it properly, etc. before becoming government property--so that boot camp training will be all the more successful and he will become the best warrior he can possibly be (he is also at a 275 PFT so we're not neglecting fitness).
Do you want me to send these parts back? :D
RancidSumo
10-04-09, 18:49
Don't expect the two to match. My BCM does not match, the upper is black but the lower has a purple tint. However, as others have said, it doesn't matter. I was a bit disappointed at first as it is my first AR but since shooting it for the first time, I haven't even noticed it.
I also have to disagree with BravoCompanyUSA. I don't have the cash to blow on some POS so I looked around and bought a quality rifle the first time. I see no point in making stupid mistakes yourself when you can learn from the mistakes of others.
Thanks for the feedback color match little off is fine for me just don't want a 2 tone color AR15. I'm going for BCM upper I'm building my first SBR already has 4 AR15 Bushmaster, dpms, sabre defence and colt.
BravoCompanyUSA
10-04-09, 20:00
I just dropped about $800.00 on parts from BCM to complete my first AR build. I put this rifle together for my son, who goes to USMC boot camp in June, because I want him to be able to easily assemble and disassemble it with his eyes closed, consistently hit small targets with it, clean it properly, etc. before becoming government property--so that boot camp training will be all the more successful and he will become the best warrior he can possibly be (he is also at a 275 PFT so we're not neglecting fitness).
Do you want me to send these parts back? :D
:D, Thank you for your purchase.
And please extend our thanks to your son for signing up to serve our country. 275 is a great 1st class PFT score! Tell him to please train to make 300 easy. Physically strong in PT aids greatly in the mental strength he will be building.
Godspeed to him.
Unless the weapon is for investment or only punching paper, finish doesn't count for much. Just finished EAG's Basic Carbine class. Took me all of 2 seconds to realize the gun was going to be knocked around. I was only concerned with function; finish played no part. Over 2k in the gun and after the first couple of minutes I was completely unconcerned about looks. Functionality is all that matters. I now have a completely new mindset. I want to kill the ****** that I am engaged with. Whether my finish, stock, handguards, etc. look nice means sh**. Imparting a new set of skills seems to impart a new way of thinking.
The best lessons are those learned firsthand. I support what BCM is saying to a large degree.
Let's be honest here. There are a SHITLOAD of people that buy top-shelf weapons like Colt, BCM, Noveske, etc. (and don't even get me started on the expensive piston guns like LWRCi) JUST because it's the "best", yet do less shooting with it than many people that will run a Bushmaster, RRA, or even an Oly for a lifetime without problems.
I see these people use the Chart to make themselves feel better and win internet arguments all the time. It's embarrassing to me, and I've been tempted to pull the Chart many times because of this kind of shit. Reminds me of when I used to meet up with other GTO guys and none of them had been to the track even once.
All of that said, if the OP wants a pretty gun it's his money and his gun and he can make it pretty. Much like the folks that color-fill their logos. Their gun, their money. I personally think that worrying about color match is gayer than aids, and filling in the logos with crayons is equally lame, but it's not my gun and it's not my choice.
But, I also see nothing wrong with everyone else making fun of them either. :p
As this site grows we're going to get more and more like TOS. When I first joined here I commented to a friend that it was "like ar15.com was 10 years ago". The membership here in the early days was two types; people that took shooting and training seriously and those that were banned from TOS. I fell into the latter group initially, but joining and participating here got me involved more in the training and shooting side and less in the gum-flapping GD side of firearms sites and moved me into the former group (although I had started that move prior to my banning from TOS). We now have at least two political trolls in GD. We have members who want their upper and lower (or stock and grip) to match colors exactly, and we have folks that won't shoot in a year what some of us shoot in a month. Site staff has been very clear that we are supposed to be accepting and (politely) mentoring these people. They have also made it quite clear that nothing is going to be done about reigning in the GD section and the folks that post there and nowhere else.
So if someone posts a thread about matching colors on their guns, either offer constructive help or PM your friends to laugh at him quietly behind the scenes. If someone posts a thread on color-filling their logos either offer him suggestions on how to do it or shoot me an email and we'll laugh at him together. :D
(on a similar note, if you ignore the political trolls in GD they'll get bored and go away. Feeding them reflects just as poorly, if not even worse, on you than any attempt you'll make at "discrediting" tem. just sayin'.)
I personally think that worrying about color match is gayer than aids, and filling in the logos with crayons is equally lame, but it's not my gun and it's not my choice.
Classic material there. If you're worrying about your upper/lower color match instead of shooting, you're on the wrong site.
(on a similar note, if you ignore the political trolls in GD they'll get bored and go away. Feeding them reflects just as poorly, if not even worse, on you than any attempt you'll make at "discrediting" tem. just sayin'.)
I have been guilty of this and came to exactly the same realization the other day. Partially due to being issued a warning, but mostly after realizing I was making an ass of myself trying to shed light on the stated trolls.
Anyway, I think we have clarified the issue for our friend the OP. Don't think he will be letting minor color differences affect his future purchases at this point, but who knows.
BravoCompanyUSA
10-05-09, 08:27
As a note, my initial post really wasn't directed at the original poster, or even the poster I quoted.
It was more of a macro response at a teaching point as to the industry and the market place.
Bill Bryant
10-05-09, 08:55
So . . . a summary post:
This forum is for folks who want to discuss the reliability, ruggedness, and efficiency of their chosen tools for killing people, and who do not believe aesthetics should have anything to do with this discussion.
If you are fascinated by the historic connection between battle and art, between war and poetry, between the technology of weaponry and the reason people often, until the 20th century, combined the carnage and mayhem of war with ceremony, symbolism, engravings, song, etc.--please take your weenie self elsewhere to do your musings. This place is for warriors, not "warrior poets" (whatever that means).
:D :p :cool: :D ;)
BravoCompanyUSA
10-05-09, 09:14
So . . . a summary post:
This forum is for folks who want to discuss the reliability, ruggedness, and efficiency of their chosen tools for killing people, and who do not believe aesthetics should have anything to do with this discussion.
If you are fascinated by the historic connection between battle and art, between war and poetry, between the technology of weaponry and the reason people often, until the 20th century, combined the carnage and mayhem of war with ceremony, symbolism, engravings, song, etc.--please take your weenie self elsewhere to do your musings. This place is for warriors, not "warrior poets" (whatever that means).
I rather enjoy warrior history....
BravoCompanyUSA
10-05-09, 09:17
Unless the weapon is for investment or only punching paper, finish doesn't count for much. Just finished EAG's Basic Carbine class. Took me all of 2 seconds to realize the gun was going to be knocked around. I was only concerned with function; finish played no part. Over 2k in the gun and after the first couple of minutes I was completely unconcerned about looks. Functionality is all that matters. I now have a completely new mindset. I want to kill the ****** that I am engaged with. Whether my finish, stock, handguards, etc. look nice means sh**. Imparting a new set of skills seems to impart a new way of thinking.
You now have developed the "professional" mindset reguarding your weapon system. Very common when the focus and effort is to build the skill set.
Thanks
Paul
So . . . a summary post:
This forum is for folks who want to discuss the reliability, ruggedness, and efficiency of their chosen tools for killing people, and who do not believe aesthetics should have anything to do with this discussion.
If you are fascinated by the historic connection between battle and art, between war and poetry, between the technology of weaponry and the reason people often, until the 20th century, combined the carnage and mayhem of war with ceremony, symbolism, engravings, song, etc.--please take your weenie self elsewhere to do your musings. This place is for warriors, not "warrior poets" (whatever that means).
:D :p :cool: :D ;)
That sounds an awful lot like a "I'm taking my ball and going home 'cause the other kids were mean to me" kind of post.
I personally think your idea that gluing a rhinestone on a sword for a Viking is somehow akin to an accountant or dentist matching the color of their upper and lower, or scribbling on their logo with a crayon, ludicrous at best.
The best lessons are those learned firsthand. I support what BCM is saying to a large degree.
Let's be honest here. There are a SHITLOAD of people that buy top-shelf weapons like Colt, BCM, Noveske, etc. (and don't even get me started on the expensive piston guns like LWRCi) JUST because it's the "best", yet do less shooting with it than many people that will run a Bushmaster, RRA, or even an Oly for a lifetime without problems.
I see these people use the Chart to make themselves feel better and win internet arguments all the time. It's embarrassing to me, and I've been tempted to pull the Chart many times because of this kind of shit. Reminds me of when I used to meet up with other GTO guys and none of them had been to the track even once.
All of that said, if the OP wants a pretty gun it's his money and his gun and he can make it pretty. Much like the folks that color-fill their logos. Their gun, their money. I personally think that worrying about color match is gayer than aids, and filling in the logos with crayons is equally lame, but it's not my gun and it's not my choice.
But, I also see nothing wrong with everyone else making fun of them either. :p
As this site grows we're going to get more and more like TOS. When I first joined here I commented to a friend that it was "like ar15.com was 10 years ago". The membership here in the early days was two types; people that took shooting and training seriously and those that were banned from TOS. I fell into the latter group initially, but joining and participating here got me involved more in the training and shooting side and less in the gum-flapping GD side of firearms sites and moved me into the former group (although I had started that move prior to my banning from TOS). We now have at least two political trolls in GD. We have members who want their upper and lower (or stock and grip) to match colors exactly, and we have folks that won't shoot in a year what some of us shoot in a month. Site staff has been very clear that we are supposed to be accepting and (politely) mentoring these people. They have also made it quite clear that nothing is going to be done about reigning in the GD section and the folks that post there and nowhere else.
So if someone posts a thread about matching colors on their guns, either offer constructive help or PM your friends to laugh at him quietly behind the scenes. If someone posts a thread on color-filling their logos either offer him suggestions on how to do it or shoot me an email and we'll laugh at him together. :D
(on a similar note, if you ignore the political trolls in GD they'll get bored and go away. Feeding them reflects just as poorly, if not even worse, on you than any attempt you'll make at "discrediting" tem. just sayin'.)
I agree with this and Paul's statement. I am ALL FOR people learning the hard way. They will then appreciate the better "tool" the next time around.
Men learn via pain. The more painful it is, the more they remember it.
Thinking back on all the conversations I have had with Vickers, Hackathorn and other HSLD types, I do not remember any of them EVER being concerned about color matching or play (between the upper and lower). Strange....
The AR/M16 platform is a tool (like a hammer). They are NOT meant to be pretty, match or be hung up on a wall as art. Trying to make them "pretty" or being concerned about this is rather G A Y IMHO.
Yes I am aware that you spent your hard earned money and you want the gun to "look" a certain way. That is fine, but what the mil-spec manufacturers are MORE concerned with is functionality. So if you are into looks, buy a RRA or BM.
C4
RancidSumo
10-05-09, 09:41
All of these posts saying that people should learn the hard way are ridiculous! I guess I should shoot myself too so that I learn first hand that it hurts like hell rather than taking other peoples' word for it.
As rational creatures, we should be able to look at what has happened to others, see that it sucked, and decided not to do it too.
Finally, if all of you really believe that crap, why did you lead me to buying a BCM when I came here completely new to the platform? Wouldn't your professed beliefs in this thread cause you to steer me towards an Oly, DPMS, or Bushmaster?
All of these posts saying that people should learn the hard way are ridiculous! I guess I should shoot myself too so that I learn first hand that it hurts like hell rather than taking other peoples' word for it.
As rational creatures, we should be able to look at what has happened to others, see that it sucked, and decided not to do it too.
Finally, if all of you really believe that crap, why did you lead me to buying a BCM when I came here completely new to the platform? Wouldn't your professed beliefs in this thread cause you to steer me towards an Oly, DPMS, or Bushmaster?
I think you might be missing the point. The comments about letting people buying crap is geared toward folks that are bitching about the color of their upper and lower or think that the play between uppers and lowers degrades the weapons capability in some way.
We point them in the right direction (Colt, LMT, BCM, etc) and when they complain, we tell them that they are right and they should buy that BM. ;)
For those of you that listen to common sense (from people that know WTF they are talking about) you have made a wise choice and saved yourself tons of money.
C4
Bill Bryant
10-05-09, 11:20
That sounds an awful lot like a "I'm taking my ball and going home 'cause the other kids were mean to me" kind of post.
I personally think your idea that gluing a rhinestone on a sword for a Viking is somehow akin to an accountant or dentist matching the color of their upper and lower, or scribbling on their logo with a crayon, ludicrous at best.I'm just having fun with y'all. Relax. Too bad Internet won't let you see the expression on my face when I'm writing these posts.
In the academic world, you sometimes throw out an assertion just to see whom it riles up. It isn't the same as trolling, because you think there might be actual value in stirring the pot--truth might bubble up here and there. But the whole exercise is done with a twinkle in the eye and often a tongue in the cheek.
Of course, I just spent the weekend with three SWAT guys, so I understand if there are some of you who no longer have a sense of humor. :)
The combat vets and the LE guys in class had great senses of humor. Maybe it's your sense of humor.:p
Bill Bryant
10-05-09, 11:44
The combat vets and the LE guys in class had great senses of humor. Maybe it's your sense of humor.:pVery good point. :eek:
In the academic world, you sometimes throw out an assertion just to see whom it riles up. It isn't the same as trolling, because you think there might be actual value in stirring the pot--truth might bubble up here and there. But the whole exercise is done with a twinkle in the eye and often a tongue in the cheek.
Actually, that's pretty much my definition of trolling as it's based on the same superior attitude. pretty much exactly what's been going on in GD with our two political trolls.
I'm just having fun with y'all. Relax. Too bad Internet won't let you see the expression on my face when I'm writing these posts.
In the academic world, you sometimes throw out an assertion just to see whom it riles up. It isn't the same as trolling, because you think there might be actual value in stirring the pot--truth might bubble up here and there. But the whole exercise is done with a twinkle in the eye and often a tongue in the cheek.
Of course, I just spent the weekend with three SWAT guys, so I understand if there are some of you who no longer have a sense of humor. :)
It is really hard to convey humor via the net and is often times missed.
Most people that live in the tactical world (LE, Millitary and Ex-LE/Mil) have had their sense of humor removed.
C4
Bill Bryant
10-05-09, 13:20
the same superior attitudeI wish you knew me well enough to know how poorly I fit that description.
I wish you knew me well enough to know how poorly I fit that description.
I believe you. :)
Just remember that good or bad the folks here can be a bit hard core, especially when it comes to non-functioning aesthetics.
What is the best crayon for coloring logos?
Jay Cunningham
10-05-09, 14:49
I have moved this thread to General Discussion where it belongs. Knock yourselves out.
What is the best crayon for coloring logos?
Haha.
John_Wayne777
10-05-09, 16:33
I have moved this thread to General Discussion where it belongs. Knock yourselves out.
Dude....what did I ever do to you?
There is a difference between the uses of and collection properties, of an AR15 and say a double barrel.
I have some shotguns that were passed down to me that are downright beautiful art pieces. I use them very rarely and take care of their physical appearance as that is what they are meant for. Will they kill someone? Sure. Is them being beautiful a plus or minus to their lethality? Nah. However, they are nota tool. They are an ornamental conversation piece that happens to be able to kill people. The hangup is people attempting to classify an AR as anything but what it is.... A tool.
When I hear people overly concerned about the physical appearance of an AR for any purpose other than "does this affect functionality" it reads similar to "my screw driver has a smudge on it... now what?!?!?!" or "my hammer is dirty".
Taking this a bit further: I would be more inclined to hang a dirty AR with battle scars on the wall as it shows: "The tool that did its job". .... There's your abstract and obscure artwork title. ;)
Dude....what did I ever do to you?
aaaaaaahahahahahaahah :D
parishioner
10-05-09, 17:45
This thread makes me want to throw my rifle out the window and get it all scratched and dirty.
Jay Cunningham
10-05-09, 18:05
Dude....what did I ever do to you?
I encourage you to take your frustrations out on this thread.
;)
Bill Bryant
10-05-09, 18:40
This thread makes me want to throw my rifle out the window and get it all scratched and dirty.Nobody's stopping you! :D You might even start a company selling Road Worn Rifles(TM) to people who want their ARs to appear to have "been there" but really came fresh from the factory that way.
(Apologies to Fender for borrowing their idea: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/fender-roadworn?src=3WWRWXGB&ZYXSEM=0)
I fail to see why fit/finish need to suffer because a company uses quality parts. The comparisons used also make me laugh, just because it is a tool doesnt mean that QC goes out the window. Comparing it to a bulldozer/end loader, if you think someone is going to drop a huge amount of money on that and have the paint half assed or the welds look like a 6 year old kid did them you are mistaken. Any tool people buy is going to be looked at for fit/finish flaws especially by professionals since they will be counting on them.
What happens after a rifle comes out of its box is up to the owner, and what they use the tool for. Now matter how much abuse the rifle will see during use it should at least look new when it comes out of the box.
parishioner
10-05-09, 23:26
just because it is a tool doesnt mean that QC goes out the window. Comparing it to a bulldozer/end loader, if you think someone is going to drop a huge amount of money on that and have the paint half assed or the welds look like a 6 year old kid did them you are mistaken.
I don't recall anyone talking about poor machining or welding. This thread is about COLOR TONES. You are acting as if each individual upper or lower in reference are multi-colored. They are both even tones just not matching tones. An upper and lower not matching in color, especially if it is two different companies, does not translate to bad QC.
I also cant even begin to imagine what welds you are referring to that could look like a 6 year old did it besides a permed flash hider.
I have little experience with BCM, but Colt and LMT, for instance, are sloppy- tool marks and forge flash abound, and it's not uncommon to get uppers and lowers with different hues. but they run, and keep running- and that's exactly what you buy LMT, Colt, and BCM for.
Yes I know the OP asked if different company's products would match, but the thread moved on to what is acceptable in a high quality rifle.
I also cant even begin to imagine what welds you are referring to that could look like a 6 year old did it besides a permed flash hider.
-Edit-Referring to a bulldozer/endloader welds, not a rifle.
Jeremy Stafford
10-05-09, 23:51
I might be missing the point here, but wouldn't a couple of cans of Krylon take care of the Warrior Poets, the rugged "my gun is tool" crowd, and the slightly ghey "my shit doesn't match" crowd all in one fell swoop?
You color matching guys sound like my wife whining about how she can't wear these shoes with this dress because they aren't the same brown.
parishioner
10-06-09, 00:06
Yes I know the OP asked if different company's products would match, but the thread moved on to what is acceptable in a high quality rifle.
-Edit-Referring to a bulldozer/endloader welds, not a rifle.
We obviously have different opinions as to what is acceptable. If my lower had a forge flash in the trigger well, I couldn't care less. You don't see this and it doesn't affect the function. If my new rifle or upper had a nick on it, again, I wouldn't get my panties in a wad but had it looked like it was dragged behind a truck, I would let them know. That's just me.
The people that care about upper/lower matching are most likely people who don't shoot very often and want it to look pretty for their in laws at Christmas and that is perfectly ok. Since, this site is geared toward more professional and serious use of weapons, you will not see this issue come up often because they have warrior mentalities and are more concerned with dropping bad guys when they have to rather than color of the metal on their gun. Because of this, you will see more responses that look similar to mine. YMMV.
I fail to see why fit/finish need to suffer because a company uses quality parts. The comparisons used also make me laugh, just because it is a tool doesnt mean that QC goes out the window. Comparing it to a bulldozer/end loader, if you think someone is going to drop a huge amount of money on that and have the paint half assed or the welds look like a 6 year old kid did them you are mistaken. Any tool people buy is going to be looked at for fit/finish flaws especially by professionals since they will be counting on them.
yea... so i'm standing around tapping my foot, waiting for my lackies to hurry the **** up and move a mis-measured doorway over 3" to the left in the framework of a wall we're about to stand up. as i'm standing there, i look down... HOLY SHIT- the anodize on one of my framing nailers has TWO DIFFERENT HUES! Those rat ****ers at Hitachi are gonna hear about this! that nailer is going back! Who cares that it's run perfectly for 3 years, and made me in excess of $100k all by itself- the colors are mismatched.
this didn't actually happen, it's just hillarious to me to think that any contractor would ever give a flying **** if his nailer had slightly different hues of anodize on the housing.
i'm a general contractor. i've never returned anything that worked, and i've received tools/equipment that looked like they'd been drug through a demolition derby. why waste the time returning it? it's gonna look twice as bad after three days on the job site. in a month you won't even be able to tell what the original color was.
a recent example; i bought another job-site table saw a couple months ago.. seven or eight hundred bucks. right out of the crate, the guard/grab shim assembly was broken- one of the bolts had sheered off. did i return it? hell no- doesn't effect function. i tossed that piece of shit in the trash, twisted out the broken bolt, and fired up the saw. works great. i'm always looking for display models with tools, too- i've gotten 30, 40, 50% off on perfectly good tools/equipment because it was dented/paint was ****ed up/missing a part/etc.
seriously- nobody at my level cares about "fit and finish," because seriously- it's all gonna look like hammered dog shit in no time. but so long as you buy quality (which has nothing to do with how it looks), it'll do what it's supposed to do.
your argument, my friend, is absurd.
If my lower had a forge flash in the trigger well, I couldn't care less. You don't see this and it doesn't affect the function. If my new rifle or upper had a nick on it, again, I wouldn't get my panties in a wad but had it looked like it was dragged behind a truck, I would let them know.
Yes Im sure everyone agrees that the first 2 are minor, but it also shows what the quality control is like at that company. Considering the amount of manufacturers making rifles now that are top tier, I would rather buy from the one that spends the extra time to make sure the fit/finish is as high quality as the parts they are using.
Yes Im sure everyone agrees that the first 2 are minor, but it also shows what the quality control is like at that company.
no- it doesn't say anything about "quality control." on a checklist as long as your arm, a supervisor will check boxes, carefully going over a part with a caliper and micrometer- discarding parts that are the least bit out of measurement- but "forge flash" and "slightly different hue of anodize" are not on his checklist. and why should they be?
i'm thinking you guys who are so concerned with "fit and finish" must sit at a desk all day... would probably do you some good to spend some time in a machine shop or on a constuction job site. give you some perspective.
parishioner
10-06-09, 00:28
I would rather buy from the one that spends the extra time to make sure the fit/finish is as high quality as the parts they are using.
Knock yourself out. Good day.
i'm always looking for display models with tools, too- i've gotten 30, 40, 50% off on perfectly good tools/equipment because it was dented/paint was ****ed up/missing a part/etc.
Yes getting a discount because of a defect is totally acceptable, that shows the QC of the company and what they feel is something they will not sell at full price. My dad was a contractor and I spent my summers on job sites. I would love to hear how well it would go over with any of your customers if you painted their house with 2 different hues. I mean whats the difference just different hues, the house is still protected from the weather, who cares how it looks.
Yes getting a discount because of a defect is totally acceptable, that shows the QC of the company and what they feel is something they will not sell at full price. My dad was a contractor and I spent my summers on job sites. I would love to hear how well it would go over with any of your customers if you painted their house with 2 different hues. I mean whats the difference just different hues, the house is still protected from the weather, who cares how it looks.
when was the last time you used a house to beat nails into wood all day? when was the last time you took a house to battle, or even a 3-day carbine course?
professional and professional-minded: "finish" does not matter, because the finish will be destroyed after the first week i own it.
people who don't actually use their guns: i paid a lot of money, and i expect perfection! (maybe add some foot stomping, crossed arms, and a pouty facial expression)
spamsammich
10-06-09, 01:24
In my experience with anodizing vendors, getting any two to match "black" is not trivial at all. Hell, we got two lots of parts from the same anodizer done on different days that didn't match and this was not some fly by night outfit.
when was the last time you used a house to beat nails into wood all day? when was the last time you took a house to battle, or even a 3-day carbine course?
I never said a house was a tool, but if you build one and sell it, it is a product and anyone buying will expect QC.
professional and professional-minded: "finish" does not matter, because the finish will be destroyed after the first week i own it.
people who don't actually use their guns: i paid a lot of money, and i expect perfection! (maybe add some foot stomping, crossed arms, and a pouty facial expression)
First of all you are grouping ALL professionals in with your thinking, which is a totally false assumption. Do I actually need to list every professional that expects fit and finish on the tools of their trade? Not every professional uses their tools in a destructive environment.
Back to the weapon at hand, just because it is capable of being dragged through the desert/jungle/and everywhere else through the harshest conditions doesnt mean it will be. If certain manufacturers only want their weapons to be used in those situations they should not sell to the public.
As a tool, it was designed to put a bullet into something. There are plenty of uses that do not involve the finish being destroyed in the process of using it.
Maybe compare it to a bulldozer, an end loader, or carpenters 16oz claw hammer. Would the owner of an excavation company be upset with his purchase because his caterpillar door paint was a couple shades different than the yellow on his bucket? Would a carpenter return his hammer because there is a non symmetrical machining mark on the waffle face of the hammer? No of course not. They made their purchase for professional use.
The AR15 (and BCM) is a military grade rifle made to be durable product that can be mass produced from forgings, with minimal machining, and then coated with an industrial grade finish, all for a reasonable price (relatively speaking). These were not built to be family heirlooms handed down from father to son to grandson, each generation spending their free time rubbing on it to preserve its’ luster. Family heirloom firearms are made from machining metal stock, have blued, etched, and painted finishes, with stocks of rich hardwoods with a high gloss. Take time to know which part of the firearms industry is building for which part of the marketplace. And take time to know which part you are in.
I will have to say this is just an excuse to get around QC, since people will just abuse the product anyway. Yes Colt got away with selling the US rifles with the same philosophy.
Considering the AR-15 had the most problems in one of the last tests, and will most likely not be the next military rifle the currant manufactures better do something to set their weapon apart from others.
Considering the AR-15 had the most problems in one of the last tests, and will most likely not be the next military rifle
since your crystal ball is evidently working better than mine, can you go ahead and tell me who the manufacturer will be so I can buy some stock?
I would rather buy from the one that spends the extra time to make sure the fit/finish is as high quality as the parts they are using.
Which ones are these?
John_Wayne777
10-06-09, 07:16
I will have to say this is just an excuse to get around QC, since people will just abuse the product anyway. Yes Colt got away with selling the US rifles with the same philosophy.
It is not an "excuse". It is REALITY. REALITY is that you can sell a rifle for around the 1,000 dollar mark that has the quality control time spent on making sure the weapon will run reliably and offer an acceptable service life to the end user, or you can spend that quality control time making sure every surface of the rifle is as pretty as Charlize Theron in a teddy.
You can't do both at that price point.
A PD local to me bought some really pretty DPMS rifles that looked great!!!
...and not a stinking one of them functioned well enough to allow quals out of the box.
If you want a really pretty gun at a low price point, more power to you. Lots of guys want really pretty guns, and there are gun companies that spend all sorts of time and effort trying to make their guns look as sexy as possible. Have you seen the Kimber adds? They're damn near pornographic!
...too bad their guns don't run for shit, but hey....who cares about that? Most people aren't going to shoot them much anyway.
Considering the AR-15 had the most problems in one of the last tests, and will most likely not be the next military rifle the currant manufactures better do something to set their weapon apart from others.
The guys who consistently put out weapons that 1.) Work and 2.) Offer a relatively trouble free service life ARE setting themselves apart. You'll notice that there are a bunch of guys who use AR rifles in a professional capacity on this forum...and they are disproportionately drawn to options like the Colt 6920 or the Daniel Defense M4 or the various options from BCM. Why? Because those products set themselves apart by...functioning. When you're looking over the sights at a dude who means to harm you the thought going through your head will not be "I'm sure glad the anodizing on my upper perfectly matches the anodizing on my lower!"
Now if you don't use your firearms as tools for personal defense, by all means judge on whatever turns you on....but don't show up and call bullshit on a manufacturer who builds products for the people who DO use them as defensive tools.
I fail to see why fit/finish need to suffer because a company uses quality parts. The comparisons used also make me laugh, just because it is a tool doesnt mean that QC goes out the window. Comparing it to a bulldozer/end loader, if you think someone is going to drop a huge amount of money on that and have the paint half assed or the welds look like a 6 year old kid did them you are mistaken. Any tool people buy is going to be looked at for fit/finish flaws especially by professionals since they will be counting on them.
What happens after a rifle comes out of its box is up to the owner, and what they use the tool for. Now matter how much abuse the rifle will see during use it should at least look new when it comes out of the box.
We are not talking about "suffering." What we are talking about is that "finish" takes a back seat to functionality and quality of parts and assembly.
We are also not talking about "welds" or anything that would hinder the reliability of the weapon. What are talking about is if on the hammer, part of it was a different "shade" of black from the other part. That is it!
Manufacturers that build mil-spec fighting guns are much more consumed with the quality of the parts, proper assembly and testing than color matching of anodized parts.
As Paul, myself and others have pointed out, if "finish" is priority one for you, do not buy a Colt, LMT, BCM, etc.
C4
Yes getting a discount because of a defect is totally acceptable, that shows the QC of the company and what they feel is something they will not sell at full price. My dad was a contractor and I spent my summers on job sites. I would love to hear how well it would go over with any of your customers if you painted their house with 2 different hues. I mean whats the difference just different hues, the house is still protected from the weather, who cares how it looks.
Age?
C4
Back to the weapon at hand, just because it is capable of being dragged through the desert/jungle/and everywhere else through the harshest conditions doesnt mean it will be. If certain manufacturers only want their weapons to be used in those situations they should not sell to the public.
This is a key point. Many years ago when LMT started (for the first time) selling parts to the commercial market, they almost stopped it because some little girls got on BARFCOM and complained about finish.
Companies that make gear for serious users couldn't give a rat f*ck what it looks like because REAL trigger pullers could care less. Prioirty ONE on a weapon is reliability.
So you guys that like to complain about mil-spec builders not paying close attention to finish, keep running your pie hole and maybe, just maybe some of these companies will stop commercial sales.
Wouldn't that just do all of us a world of good. :rolleyes:
C4
since your crystal ball is evidently working better than mine, can you go ahead and tell me who the manufacturer will be so I can buy some stock?
Yes, and what test is he referring too that Colt did so bad on?
C4
You are basically basing your opinion or making a statment about Colt AR-15's based upon some "clinical" test that really dooesn't mimic the real world.
If you take care of your weapon, it will take care of you. I can't tell you how many times when I was in country that I saw personnel walking around with dirty weapons or doing silly shit like shoving rags in magwells to keep the dust out.
FWIW- I am in my Colt recert class this week in S.C. One of the attendees works with some of the high speed units using the HK 416. According to him many of those using it are not that happy and they are reportedly seeing issues with it now that they are getting higher round counts.
The Colt may not be perfect, but across the board their quality is very good and the weapon works when everyone does their job. That means operators take care of it and clean it, and armorers gage and inspect and repair them when they're supposed to.
I will have to say this is just an excuse to get around QC, since people will just abuse the product anyway. Yes Colt got away with selling the US rifles with the same philosophy.
Considering the AR-15 had the most problems in one of the last tests, and will most likely not be the next military rifle the currant manufactures better do something to set their weapon apart from others.
bbvette427
10-06-09, 20:55
So you guys that like to complain about mil-spec builders not paying close attention to finish, keep running your pie hole and maybe, just maybe some of these companies will stop commercial sales.
Wouldn't that just do all of us a world of good. :rolleyes:
C4[/QUOTE]
Or just have your anodizing company make a upper and lower that match.
Stopping retail sales would be a big hit in gross sales and in this economy you won't see it.
Maybe BCM should only sell to the government then Paul won't have to keep on defending his anodizing.
Or just have your anodizing company make a upper and lower that match.
LOL, uppers and lowers can come from many different companies. So anodizing can and will always vary some.
Stopping retail sales would be a big hit in gross sales and in this economy you won't see it.
Maybe not right now, but there was a time when manufacturers were sick of the whining.
Maybe BCM should only sell to the government then Paul won't have to keep on defending his anodizing.
You must not know Paul very well. He could care less what you think.
If you feel that his products do not meet your standards, he is just fine with that.
C4
You must not know Paul very well. He could care less what you think.
C4
Maybe not the best thing to say here.
Maybe not the best thing to say here.
Why not? It is the truth.
People that are consumed w/ fit & finish are not of concern to him (or me).
C4
bbvette427
10-06-09, 21:30
Per my email from BCM they are anodized by the same company.
Bottom line is BCM does not care what their product looks like. You and the others can accept this but my future purchase will not be with BCM.
Robb Jensen
10-06-09, 21:35
Per my email from BCM they are anodized by the same company.
Bottom line is BCM does not care what their product looks like. You and the others can accept this but my future purchase will not be with BCM.
On the other hand you apparently want a 'pretty gun' and don't care how it functions.......I'd highly recommend an AirSoft gun.
Per my email from BCM they are anodized by the same company.
Could very well be. My comment was in regards to the AR industry in general.
Bottom line is BCM does not care what their product looks like. You and the others can accept this but my future purchase will not be with BCM.
Do you have any proof that Paul does not pay any attention to the finish?
Remember that what we are discussing is "shades" of black.
I think that both Paul and I are ok with you not owning any BCM products.
C4
parishioner
10-06-09, 22:07
Bottom line is BCM does not care what their product looks like. You and the others can accept this but my future purchase will not be with BCM.
I guess Noveske doesn't care what their product looks like either because my father's MOE rifle is two different shades. And we all know Noveske is such a slouch in the QC department. (sarcasm)
This rifle is junk I know.
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/jordandalleman/JordansCamera039.jpg
Amazing how people are consumed by such petty stuff. Says alot about priorities.
Well saying that a rifle can not have fit/finish and functionality at the same price point is nonsense. Especially when you are talking about variations anodize colors on a part which is out sourced. If the manufacturer is that tired of hearing about it from his customers he should be passing the complaints on to his supplier and have them fix the situation. The supplier doing it right adds ZERO cost.
Yes we know there are people that dont care, thats great you are every companies wet dream. As we all know it only takes a few unhappy customers on the internet to give a company a bad name. Now instead of the manufacturer trying to deal with the situation in a way to make all his customers happy, all I have seen is a lack of respect.
As far as the manufacturer stopping sales to civilians, that is basically cutting off the nose to spite the face. As much as he might want to, he wont, because the same customers that he clearly shows no respect for pay his bills.
What does my age have to do with anything? I'm old enough to party.
so far it's been you attacking tier 1 manufacturers- those manufacturers who have proven track records for the highest quality weapons in the industry (Colt, LMT, BCM isn't "tier 1," but they might as well be, and we can throw in Sabre [same finish issues], noveske [also not "tier 1," but many would classify them as above and beyond the tier 1s])... Who do you recommend, if all these manufacturers aren't up to your standard?
SWATcop556
10-07-09, 03:22
Well saying that a rifle can not have fit/finish and functionality at the same price point is nonsense. Especially when you are talking about variations anodize colors on a part which is out sourced. If the manufacturer is that tired of hearing about it from his customers he should be passing the complaints on to his supplier and have them fix the situation. The supplier doing it right adds ZERO cost.
Yes we know there are people that dont care, thats great you are every companies wet dream. As we all know it only takes a few unhappy customers on the internet to give a company a bad name. Now instead of the manufacturer trying to deal with the situation in a way to make all his customers happy, all I have seen is a lack of respect.
As far as the manufacturer stopping sales to civilians, that is basically cutting off the nose to spite the face. As much as he might want to, he wont, because the same customers that he clearly shows no respect for pay his bills.
What does my age have to do with anything? I'm old enough to party.
So far from what I have gathered from reading your posts is that the appearance of your rifle far outweighs the quality of the product, and that's fine.
Coming across with a smartass attitude and even thinking that yours are so big that you even throw out the idea that Paul and BCM do not care about their customers because the ****ing colors don't match shows you really just don't get what this forum is about , no matter how many well respected people point out that your logic is flawed.
You don't want to by BCM because it doesn't match and clashes with your jeans, great. That means that someone who will utilize and appreciate a quality weapon will get one and it will not get used as a mantel piece for a "mine's bigger than yours" with your friends.
I'm trying not to come across as an asshole but if I did, fine. It's just offensive to me when someone hiding behind a screen name and has only been a member here for a couple of months comes on and says that one of the most respected guys in the business doesn't care about his customers. Poor form.
Sorry for the rant.
Don't care about color. Gets beat up in a month or two anyway.
But receiver "Wobble" to me is unacceptable. Think about it; If they can't machine this piece, to fit inside this piece perfectly, how can they machine the bolt to fit perfectly? OR the buffer into the extension? I realize the slop between the two receivers doesn't affect anything, but if the machine shop can't even get them to fit together right, where else is lacking?
I have BCM parts all throughout my rifle. But I have Rock River upper/lower. Because there is no wobble, what so ever. It's a very clean fit.
Again, I know the wobble means nothing. But in my mind, it's sloppy (Lazy?) machine work.
that is a shit rifle and you should be ashamed to walk around with it strapped to you, send it to me so i can dispose of it and i can swap it out with a color matched bushy i'll get from grant. grant actually puts the bushy's through a mini qc check so it will run too. oh and did i mention i hate you :p
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/jordandalleman/JordansCamera039.jpg
I fail to see why fit/finish need to suffer because a company uses quality parts. The comparisons used also make me laugh, just because it is a tool doesnt mean that QC goes out the window. Comparing it to a bulldozer/end loader, if you think someone is going to drop a huge amount of money on that and have the paint half assed or the welds look like a 6 year old kid did them you are mistaken. Any tool people buy is going to be looked at for fit/finish flaws especially by professionals since they will be counting on them.
What happens after a rifle comes out of its box is up to the owner, and what they use the tool for. Now matter how much abuse the rifle will see during use it should at least look new when it comes out of the box.
i hafta say i got lucky with my over priced colt, upper and lower were black and i couldnt tell if there was a wabble, i have around 3k tied up in my end version and right now its in the corner with scratches, mud, and carbon/shit all in/over it. i can pick it up and produce death if i need to and know the appearance and crud wont affect the outcome.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/3571/wreckinghammer013.jpg
Maybe BCM should only sell to the government then Paul won't have to keep on defending his anodizing.
Is his anodizing in spec? Is there a color listed in the spec?
What so many of the "fit and finish", and "my gun needs to match" people are missing is that you're equating a non color matched gun to somehow being functionally inferior. It's not like the gun is "ugly", beat all to hell with big nicks and scratches, etc. One half may just be a slightly different shade than another.
I'm in construction. When we paint a building we have a specified requirement for so many coats and for the finished product to be a certain thickness (measured in mils). As the contractor, I don't give a damn what color the froo-froos pick for the building. All I care about is that he gives me the number of coats and the specified thickness so that the building is protected. That's it. On my last project we repainted 1/4 of the building 3 times because the owner and the architect were fighting about the color selection. We got the right thickness every time, and we got paid to repaint it every time.
Same thing applies here. The anodized finish is there to protect the aluminum. From Wikipedia (Anodizing, or anodising, is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts. Anodizing increases corrosion resistance and wear resistance, and provides better adhesion for paint primers and glues than bare metal.):
Anodizing, or anodising, is an electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts. Anodizing increases corrosion resistance and wear resistance, and provides better adhesion for paint primers and glues than bare metal.
and
Anodized aluminium surfaces, for example, are harder than aluminium
So it would be nice if the ignoramus crowd would stop throwing stones and stop equating a slight color mismatch between one half and the other with something being functionally wrong with the gun, or even with things like large forging seams and the like.
Robb Jensen
10-07-09, 07:16
Much like blueing and parkerizing, anodizing is hard to get perfect for color. Batch to batch will look different even from the same manufacturer. To see this even more next time you're in a gun store and see a Surefire display look at the different E series flash lights. Many have the bezel, body and tail cap in three different shades of gray type III anodizing.
Below is a pic from the BCM website. I'd be willing to bet that this gun works very well and has proper hardness/thickness of the anodizing and I'll bet it's owner can shoot very well.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/bcm4%20side%20small%20550.jpg
OOOhHH Nose!, My BCM is coming tomorrow from Grant, and it is gonna be two different colors. My Olympic Arms and Busmaster buddies are gonna make fun of me. oh well, I guess I could take it to the gun shop and trade it for Bushmaster and have to add cash because of the color.
When I got my first gun, I had it for a couple of months and then one day it got a scratch on it, I almost cried, I mean my beautiful gun was tarnished. Now I don't give a crap anymore, I don't even clean the bitch, and it runs flawlessly. So I guess I got over it and realized that if it goes bang when I want it to, or if ever the case when I need it to, is all that matters.
I can understand people being upset about the color thing, but the quality based on the experience of YOU, a bunch of complete strangers, is what made me choose the BCM as my first black rifle. I'm peeing my pants and can't wit for my ugly discolored BCM.
In all seriousness, if the shading thing bothers you then make it how you can live with it. Buy what you consider a good carbine and ship it to ADCO and have them paint it with KG or moly, or some other techie new paint. It will look good, protect your firearm, and scratch worse than any anodizing out there if you use it. As long as it sits in the house it will look perfect.
John_Wayne777
10-07-09, 07:54
Well saying that a rifle can not have fit/finish and functionality at the same price point is nonsense.
No, nonsense is equating what I said to the complete absence of fit and finish. I said no such thing.
The problem here is that you equate exact color matching of anodized aluminum to be the ultimate definition of "fit and finish", when in reality that's an absurd standard. The finish on every BCM upper I've ever looked at has been just fine, and the quality of the materials that have gone into that upper are superior to what a lot of other manufacturers put into their guns. When the upper is put on to a lower and used, odds are it will function perfectly and zero just fine because the people building it paid very close attention to how it was assembled, ensuring that it met a very high quality standard.
Your argument is that because they don't have some fruity former interior decorator at the end of the line with a color stick comparing colors like he's painting the little love nest he's building with his life partner that their product sucks.
I'm of the opinion that because it A.) Works and B.) Will last that it's a pretty good product.
Here's another little tidbit of information for you: EVERY manufacturer out there has color variation issues from time to time. EVERY one of them. It's a function of how the anodizing process itself works. All the other manufacturers have gladly sold those guns on the market. If you had been around AR's long enough you'd know this. You would have seen mismatched Colts, purple Bushmasters, etc. I defy you to name a company who got in a batch of anodized parts and rejected them because the color didn't perfectly match the anodizing on another batch of parts.
I suppose you just can't buy any AR's since nobody meets your standard. Maybe you should go into business for yourself. There's a great big market hole you could exploit since nobody else is doing it right.
Especially when you are talking about variations anodize colors on a part which is out sourced. If the manufacturer is that tired of hearing about it from his customers he should be passing the complaints on to his supplier and have them fix the situation. The supplier doing it right adds ZERO cost.
This tells me you've never worked in any sort of production environment before. If you think there's no cost to eliminating all variation in a mass produced product then you've clearly never tried to do it.
What does my age have to do with anything?
Because with age hopefully comes experience and wisdom...traits not in evidence from your posts.
justin_247
10-07-09, 08:33
Please note how these individuals who complain about "fit and finish" refuse to discuss which manufacturers they think have the best "fit and finish" and, thus, the "best rifle."
Trolls.
Well saying that a rifle can not have fit/finish and functionality at the same price point is nonsense. Especially when you are talking about variations anodize colors on a part which is out sourced. If the manufacturer is that tired of hearing about it from his customers he should be passing the complaints on to his supplier and have them fix the situation. The supplier doing it right adds ZERO cost.
Sure. Companies CAN have all three. The priority with the quality companies though is ALWAYS reliability. This SHOULD ALWAYS be the most important thing to anyone that views their AR as a weapon for defense.
I personally do not know of any "issues" with any of the top tier manufacturers in regards to the following:
1. Excessive play between uppers and lower.
2. Two completely different colored uppers and lowers.
If you have examples of these two issues, please post pics.
Yes we know there are people that dont care, thats great you are every companies wet dream. As we all know it only takes a few unhappy customers on the internet to give a company a bad name. Now instead of the manufacturer trying to deal with the situation in a way to make all his customers happy, all I have seen is a lack of respect.
I think you are mistaken. We do care. We just care more about reliability. Generally if a manufacturer does not give the customer "respect" it is because they are a village idiot and they opinion of their product is not worth anything (read Rob_S's thread about all opinions NOT being equal).
As far as the manufacturer stopping sales to civilians, that is basically cutting off the nose to spite the face. As much as he might want to, he wont, because the same customers that he clearly shows no respect for pay his bills.
What does my age have to do with anything? I'm old enough to party.
No, not really. Most of the top tier manufacturers get the bulk of their business from the Govt. Whatever is left over goes to commercial sales. So would LMT go out of business if they stopped selling to the commercial market? LOL, no.
I asked you your age because I could tell that you are young. I rest my case with your comment "old enough to party."
C4
On the other hand you apparently want a 'pretty gun' and don't care how it functions.......I'd highly recommend an AirSoft gun.
;)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Airsoft%20forum.JPG
C4
Don't care about color. Gets beat up in a month or two anyway.
But receiver "Wobble" to me is unacceptable. Think about it; If they can't machine this piece, to fit inside this piece perfectly, how can they machine the bolt to fit perfectly? OR the buffer into the extension? I realize the slop between the two receivers doesn't affect anything, but if the machine shop can't even get them to fit together right, where else is lacking?
I have BCM parts all throughout my rifle. But I have Rock River upper/lower. Because there is no wobble, what so ever. It's a very clean fit.
Again, I know the wobble means nothing. But in my mind, it's sloppy (Lazy?) machine work.
What is the definition of "unacceptable" wobble????
The specs on uppers and lowers varies (per the TDP). This means that the manufacturer can basically machine them to any spec they want AS LONG as they stay within the range.
Now most manufacturers try to go for the middle of the spec, but that does not always happen. So who’s at fault when uppers and lowers have wobble in them? No one as they are BOTH in spec.
The AR/M16 was designed to have wobble between the upper and lower. So I would argue that anytime you have a tight fit (read no wobble between the upper and lower) that one of the components is OUT OF SPEC and are less than ideal for a fighting gun.
Now if you like a tight fit between your upper and lower, that is just fine. To criticize though and make the assumption that they are poorly made is just foolish.
First of all, I thought this cluster**** was closed?
I got the colt LE6920 lower and I'm thinking about the BCM upper will the color match? how about LMT upper?
This is what the guy asked originally. How did this turn into people saying BCM's uppers and lowers don't match? I only have a sample of one, but it matches perfect. I picked up the lower recently, but the upper is one of the first BCM uppers I bought, so they're definitely from different batches. The BCM upper is the one I've regularly been shooting, so its got some more wear on it than the new lower.
As for the way some of you are acting towards Grant and Paul, you should be ashamed of yourselves. These 2 guys are the epitome of the way people should act in the firearms industry. Polite, professional, more than tolerant of alot of the stupidity out there. In way more orders than I'd like to count, I haven't had a single problem with either G&R or BravoCompany, even through the panic after the election. There's plenty of asshole gun shops in this town, so I know when I'm dealing with quality.
This post has been wonderful at doing one thing. Having certain individuals on the site expose themselves for what they are.
I guess the most amazing thing to me is what sort of battles people tend to choose. Why die on a mountain not worth climbing??
Guess I should be used to it by now.
Grant, that last pic was great...not familiar but gonna have to check out airsoft just for grins.
What is the definition of "unacceptable" wobble????
The specs on uppers and lowers varies (per the TDP). This means that the manufacturer can basically machine them to any spec they want AS LONG as they stay within the range.
Now most manufacturers try to go for the middle of the spec, but that does not always happen. So who’s at fault when uppers and lowers have wobble in them? No one as they are BOTH in spec.
The AR/M16 was designed to have wobble between the upper and lower. So I would argue that anytime you have a tight fit (read no wobble between the upper and lower) that one of the components is OUT OF SPEC and are less than ideal for a fighting gun.
Now if you like a tight fit between your upper and lower, that is just fine. To criticize though and make the assumption that they are poorly made is just foolish.
Guess I didn't think about what was and wasn't spec. But I don't think I've ever handled a factory Noveske rifle that didn't wobble something fierce. I understand this is not BCM or LMT. I would just assume they would machine the uppers and lowers to the same width.
But yes, it's just my own, personal preference. The BCM receivers I personally owned (Only two of them) really didn't wobble that bad, it was just not as nice as a solid stick.
Would you know why they're designed to have the "extra clearance"?
This kinda stuff makes me laugh too. right out of the factory, my 6920 came with an offset gastube due to an overtightened barrel nut so that it's crooked as a politician, and a carrying handle and lower that looked like they were finished with a brillo pad. It even had some rust on the barrel FROM THE FACTORY. Shitty fit and finish, and my KAC RAS2 is crooked (fixed with a switch to a DD omega) and actual rust. Well it goes bang just fine. Excellent gun. After numerous carbine courses and a lot of range work, I'm more proud of the fact that it looks like it's been through a meat grinder than pristine .
But if you want a pretty gun, maybe you should dress it up. I think you need one of these: http://www.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5879/Tacticool-gun.jpg
Noops
Guess I didn't think about what was and wasn't spec. But I don't think I've ever handled a factory Noveske rifle that didn't wobble something fierce. I understand this is not BCM or LMT. I would just assume they would machine the uppers and lowers to the same width.
But yes, it's just my own, personal preference. The BCM receivers I personally owned (Only two of them) really didn't wobble that bad, it was just not as nice as a solid stick.
Would you know why they're designed to have the "extra clearance"?
Noveske does typically pay more attention to how their rifles fit. You also pay for that (FYI). The Noveske rifle I have in stock accepts a feeler gauge of .004 and the pins still push out. I think that is about the lowest you can go on the feeler gauge and still push the pins out.
Typically, I can get a .006-.007 feeler gauge between BCM uppers and lowers.
Remember that BCM does not finish receivers in house (nor does Noveske). BCM buys the bulk of their components from the same place that FN does (FYI).
All the specs (in regards to the M16) have variations in them (high to low). Most companies shoot for the middle of the spec, but that does not always happen.
The question I always ask people that complain about the play between their upper and lower is; "How does it feel when you are moving and shooting?"
C4
But I don't think I've ever handled a factory Noveske rifle that didn't wobble something fierce.
Mine doesn't.
I have two noveske's. I consider their fit and finish/color match to be perfect.
First of all, I thought this cluster**** was closed?
No sh*t. It's like the energizer bunny...
Well I know there are plenty of people here that actually use their rifle more in a month than the average person will in a couple years.
I am willing to bet that there are plenty of people here posting about how finish doesnt matter, yet their own rifle sits in a safe and looks brand new. It is easy to look through the AR picture thread and see many brand new rifles. Now I know people will say they took the pic when the rifle was new. Sounds reasonable, until you look at all the other new looking rifles in the same pic, along with handguns which look brand new, knives, cases, the list goes on. So unless people are buying multiple rifles, handguns, knives, and ever thing else in the pics on the same day, I call bull.
There are far too many people here that just regurgitate what senior members say, just so they can fit in.
There are far too many people here that just regurgitate what senior members say, just so they can fit in.
without a doubt. but how does that help your argument?
and you still havent told us which manufacturer you recommend.
I dont have any recommendations, nor am I condemning any companys, I have not claimed to be an expert.
Might want to ask the people that claim high round counts and so many classes that their rifle looks like it went through a meat grinder. Remember I am supposedly young, only care about appearance, and obviously looked down upon by plenty of people here.
Well I know there are plenty of people here that actually use their rifle more in a month than the average person will in a couple years.
I am willing to bet that there are plenty of people here posting about how finish doesnt matter, yet their own rifle sits in a safe and looks brand new. It is easy to look through the AR picture thread and see many brand new rifles. Now I know people will say they took the pic when the rifle was new. Sounds reasonable, until you look at all the other new looking rifles in the same pic, along with handguns which look brand new, knives, cases, the list goes on. So unless people are buying multiple rifles, handguns, knives, and ever thing else in the pics on the same day, I call bull.
There are far too many people here that just regurgitate what senior members say, just so they can fit in.
The base for your logic is grossly and irreparably flawed. Many here have spoken from platforms of first hand knowledge and years of experience. You have, by your own admission, been sharing your "opinion". It's time you sharpened that opinion with the help and the knowledge in this thread and in this forum. The sure sign of immaturity is the refusal of letting facts modify ones outlook. You're running a an ignorant campaign here and it's high time it ends. Look around you. What company are you keeping here? Who is in your camp? Take the hint, son.
First of all you are not my dad, so dont call me son, thanks.
Secondly, what logic is flawed? Just because you would be content with accepting a new rifle that has obvious flaws does not make that the standard for everyone that buys a rifle. Everyone keeps bringing up that fact that it is a tool and comparing it to other tools, thats fine yet does not help your case. Go in to any tool store, home improvement center and look at the tools, they all look nice. To find the ones that are flawed you need to go to the sale rack or buy them from Ebay because they will not be sold in the store.
First of all you are not my dad, so dont call me son, thanks.
Secondly, what logic is flawed? Just because you would be content with accepting a new rifle that has obvious flaws does not make that the standard for everyone that buys a rifle. Everyone keeps bringing up that fact that it is a tool and comparing it to other tools, thats fine yet does not help your case. Go in to any tool store, home improvement center and look at the tools, they all look nice. To find the ones that are flawed you need to go to the sale rack or buy them from Ebay because they will not be sold in the store.
Wrong again. I refuse to chase the tail with you. What is the best case scenario for you now? You've wrapped your ass up on this thing and now have to find a way out. You are expecting what, exactly? Real users, industry professionals, etc. to just say, "yeah, perna is right. We are wrong. All of our experience is debunked by this kid's opinion". It's been over for a few pages now, you've just failed to realize it.
I dont have any recommendations, nor am I condemning any companys, I have not claimed to be an expert.
Might want to ask the people that claim high round counts and so many classes that their rifle looks like it went through a meat grinder. Remember I am supposedly young, only care about appearance, and obviously looked down upon by plenty of people here.
This is the classic troll response. You have no way of substantiating your opinion so you just waffle.
I'm still not sure what exactly your point is, or what makers you think have "obvious flaws", and what those "flaws" are.
Can you please state your position, whatever it is, clearly and concisely?
John_Wayne777
10-08-09, 07:23
I dont have any recommendations, nor am I condemning any companys, I have not claimed to be an expert.
Well, just reading back through your posts....
Any tool people buy is going to be looked at for fit/finish flaws especially by professionals since they will be counting on them.
...you are an expert in the tool selection preferences of professionals.
Considering the amount of manufacturers making rifles now that are top tier, I would rather buy from the one that spends the extra time to make sure the fit/finish is as high quality as the parts they are using.
...you are expert enough in the AR market to only buy from those as yet unnamed manufacturers who never have color match issues.
Especially when you are talking about variations anodize colors on a part which is out sourced. If the manufacturer is that tired of hearing about it from his customers he should be passing the complaints on to his supplier and have them fix the situation. The supplier doing it right adds ZERO cost.
...you are an expert enough on the anodizing process to know what "doing it right" is, as well as knowing the economics of the process well enough to tell us that "doing it right" is a zero cost option.
Remember I am supposedly young, only care about appearance, and obviously looked down upon by plenty of people here.
...and whom do you suppose is responsible for that? ;)
Even this thread put out some good info. This is one of those WTF threads that is now turning into a circle jerk.
Perna,
Are you one of those that would argue with a brick wall because it's not talking back? Your info is there, you do not know of what you speak. Your standards are unrealistic. Everything you need to make a good decision on a rifle is yours for the taking but you would rather argue semantics.
This is not what this site is for.
First of all you are not my dad, so dont call me son, thanks.
Secondly, what logic is flawed? Just because you would be content with accepting a new rifle that has obvious flaws does not make that the standard for everyone that buys a rifle. Everyone keeps bringing up that fact that it is a tool and comparing it to other tools, thats fine yet does not help your case. Go in to any tool store, home improvement center and look at the tools, they all look nice. To find the ones that are flawed you need to go to the sale rack or buy them from Ebay because they will not be sold in the store.
All the AR's that we are talking about "look nice" as well. As I have asked, please provide pics of these AR's that are "lacking" in the fit and finish department.
I have spent many years on forums and have learned something from it. If you are the ONLY ONE with your opinion, then it is a good time to re-think your POV/logic on the subject.
Just so we are clear, you have NO recommendations for a quality AR? Great. How about growing a set, and putting up or shutting up? It is all nice and well to throw other peoples recommendation under the bus, but at some point you have to stick your neck out and stand behind what your are saying.
C4
I am willing to bet that there are plenty of people here posting about how finish doesnt matter, yet their own rifle sits in a safe and looks brand new. It is easy to look through the AR picture thread and see many brand new rifles. Now I know people will say they took the pic when the rifle was new. Sounds reasonable, until you look at all the other new looking rifles in the same pic, along with handguns which look brand new, knives, cases, the list goes on. So unless people are buying multiple rifles, handguns, knives, and ever thing else in the pics on the same day, I call bull.
I think you are either missing the point or are trying to throw out a red herring.
I have a set of socket wrenches. I have had them for well over 10 years and use them all the time. They still look fairly new despite the use. Why? Because use does not equal abuse. When I am done with them, I clean them off and neatly put them back in their case. I don't need them to be covered in grease and stuff to show off how much they get used.
Same thing goes for rifles.
FlyAndFight
10-08-09, 12:18
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/9747/mjpopcorn.gif (http://img79.imageshack.us/i/mjpopcorn.gif/)
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/9747/mjpopcorn.gif (http://img79.imageshack.us/i/mjpopcorn.gif/)
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!
Belmont31R
10-08-09, 14:08
I dont see why color match is so important because colors can vary even within the same manufacturer.
Anodizing is not an EXACT science.
I dont see why color match is so important because colors can vary even within the same manufacturer.
Anodizing is not an EXACT science.
Correct. The problem is that a lot of people DO BELIEVE that it is an exact thing. They have no idea that several anodizing comanies might be used, that their tanks might all be at different ages, etc.
C4
Can you please state your position, whatever it is, clearly and concisely?
My position on what? Sorry, there have been a lot of different points brought up.
As I have asked, please provide pics of these AR's that are "lacking" in the fit and finish department.
Why do I need to post pics, people have already posted that their rifles were either purple or had flaws. Like this guy.
my 6920 came with an offset gastube due to an overtightened barrel nut so that it's crooked as a politician, and a carrying handle and lower that looked like they were finished with a brillo pad. It even had some rust on the barrel FROM THE FACTORY.
Ask him for a pic.
There is a difference between being 2 hues of black, and totally purple like the pic on page 5. Which I believe is what the OP wanted to avoid.
Belmont31R
10-08-09, 14:55
My position on what? Sorry, there have been a lot of different points brought up.
Why do I need to post pics, people have already posted that their rifles were either purple or had flaws. Like this guy.
Ask him for a pic.
There is a difference between being 2 hues of black, and totally purple like the pic on page 5. Which I believe is what the OP wanted to avoid.
Every single company is going to have a bad rifle get out from time to time.
What sets companies apart is how they handle those bad guns that do get out.
Ive seen bad jobs on BCM, Noveske, Colt, LMT, et cetera.
And again color match really isn't important. Im more concerned with if the anodizing was done correctly rather than what shade of black it is. As long as its not chipping off or purple I don't care. Again the color DOES vary even within the same manufacturer based on lots.
spamsammich
10-08-09, 15:04
color can also vary with age. I've had anodized parts fade over the course of 5 years making my current manufacturing task a nightmare. I've got 3 different shades of blue anodized aluminum parts that started off as 1 uniform shade from the same lot. The difference apparently is the storage conditions for the parts. Some were stored in plastic, away from light, some were exposed to UV/sun, some were stored in brown paper wrapping. Because this machine I'm building has to look pretty, I have to send my parts back to the vendor to have them stripped, re-masked, and re-anodized. This is NOT a no-cost operation by any means.
Also, black anodizing can easily fade to purple depending on many factors. It is not trivial to get anodizing to color match and you're fooling yourself if you think it is. Neither is it cheap or free, my time is not worth zero dollars.
My position on what? Sorry, there have been a lot of different points brought up.
In other words, other than being intentionally disruptive, you don't have a position on anything.
Belmont31R
10-08-09, 15:10
color can also vary with age. I've had anodized parts fade over the course of 5 years making my current manufacturing task a nightmare. I've got 3 different shades of blue anodized aluminum parts that started off as 1 uniform shade from the same lot. The difference apparently is the storage conditions for the parts. Some were stored in plastic, away from light, some were exposed to UV/sun, some were stored in brown paper wrapping. Because this machine I'm building has to look pretty, I have to send my parts back to the vendor to have them stripped, re-masked, and re-anodized. This is NOT a no-cost operation by any means.
Also, black anodizing can easily fade to purple depending on many factors. It is not trivial to get anodizing to color match and you're fooling yourself if you think it is. Neither is it cheap or free, my time is not worth zero dollars.
Isn't colored anodizing a lot harder to get right in the first place?
From what Ive read that is why not too many places are willing to do tan anodized parts because they can come out with a pinkish to dark gold tone rather than a matte tan appearance.
spamsammich
10-08-09, 15:25
Isn't colored anodizing a lot harder to get right in the first place?
From what Ive read that is why not too many places are willing to do tan anodized parts because they can come out with a pinkish to dark gold tone rather than a matte tan appearance.
In my experience yes. How about your experience Perna? I'm a big fan of clear anodizing ;)
spamsammich
10-08-09, 15:26
Can this stupid thread please die already? This TOS bullshit has gone on long enough.
In other words, other than being intentionally disruptive, you don't have a position on anything.
Maybe you missed this "My position on what?".
It is not trivial to get anodizing to color match and you're fooling yourself if you think it is. Neither is it cheap or free, my time is not worth zero dollars.
I never said it was easy, but if that is your job, thats what you get paid to do. If I contract someone to do a job, I dont want to hear how hard it is, I just want it done and done right.
Maybe you missed this "My position on what?".
I never said it was easy, but if that is your job, thats what you get paid to do. If I contract someone to do a job, I dont want to hear how hard it is, I just want it done and done right.
Dude......
SHUT UP!
Dude......
SHUT UP!
Over react much?
I have Colt lower with an 11.5 BCM upper and the finish matches very well. So you’re GTG. The most important thing is that the weapon goes bang every time.
With that said, I have to respectfully disagree with many who have posted here. I see nothing wrong with a buyer expecting his or her new firearms to look good too. As an American, I’ve taken pride in our firearms heritage. American firearms manufacturers have been making firearms that look just as good as they shoot since the beginning.
This thread has run its' course unless I can be convinced otherwise. Ciao.
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