View Full Version : Smith & Wessom M&P 40 Range Report
I picked up an M&P 40 at the gun shop on the way to work today and when I got in to work, I tried as hard as I could to resist the temptation of taking it out to the police range. :rolleyes: Well, I obviously could not... I was very concerned with the outcome of my short trip to the range.
A little background on myself and this particular pistol. I work full time as a police officer in a small town and I work part time in a gun shop. I am the department's firearms instructor (handgun, shotgun, patrol rifle and tactical shooting). I have been an instructor since 2001 and have attended 3 LE police instructor training schools in that time. I am not saying that I am the best shot by any means but I usually qualify as an expert. My last qualification I scored 299 out of a possible 300. I have been shooting regularly for about 20 years. So if I had to sum up what I am trying to say in so many words is that I shoot better than what the results were with this pistol. I own an M&P .45 and have for about 2 years. I purchased the M&P 40 today and ordered an M&P9c. I shoot the .45 very well but did not have it with me today to compare at the range.
The M&P 40 is the full sized 4.5" barrel and it has the standard Novak sights on it. I used our department issue Speer Lawman 180 grain practice ammo and a box of 180 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow points. The target I used was a DEA DOT target which is a 2 and a half foot tall by 1 and a half foot wide piece of cardboard with 6 numbered 3 and a half inch black circles on it.
I loaded the 3 mags with 15 rounds each of the practice ammo and fired a 5 shot string at circle number 1 (top left corner) at 25 yards. I hit the target about 6 inches above the dot with 2 rounds touching each other and one the same height and 5 and a half inches to the left. The other 2 rounds did not print. I decided that the poor marksmanship was because I was not yet familiar with the weapon yet. I then moved up to the 7 yard line and fired 5 rounds at dot number 2 (top right) I printed 4 rounds touching each other (1 inch group) and one flier a half inch above the group. The problem was that the group was about 3 inches higher than my point of aim. I shot 3 more groups of five shots at 10 and 15 yards and printed 2 to 4 inch groups all about 3 to 4 inches ABOVE the dot that I was aiming at. I then switched to the duty ammo (Gold Dots) and fired 2 more five shot groups. The groups tightened up a little bit but were still very high. I then took a piece of clean cardboard about 1 and a half foot square and placed a florescent green sticker in the center of it. I fired 10 shots very slowly at 25 yards and did not hit the cardboard at all.
I was very displeased with the performance of this pistol. I love the M&P line (almost as much as my Glocks) and I truly believe that this particular pistol has a problem. I can't believe that with my experience as a pistol shooter, while not the best, I could have shot this badly. My first thought is to contact Smith and Wesson and tell them my problem and see what they say. The sights seem to be centered on the slide and tight in the dovetail. Could there be a problem with the height of the front sight?? The barrel seems a little loose when it is in battery and the wear around the barrel seems to be a bit uneven but I only fired about 80 rounds. I know the grip angle is a bit different from the Glock but I shoot my M&P .45 very well. I hope I didn't waste money on this gun and the other one I ordered.
If anyone has any input, please feel free to chime in. Thanks in advance.
Before you contact S&W, why don't you have a couple of other people shoot it first?
Shoot it from a bench.
If it's still shooting inches high at 25yd, you need a different height front sight. S&W should be able to hook you up with little fuss.
I had to call S&W about an unrelated issue today. I asked about the issue with my M&P and the rep said don't waste time just send it back. I still want to shoot it one more time before i ship it out. My buddy just got a ransom rest but it hasn't arrive in the mail yet. We shall see this weekend...
Rickenbacker53
10-08-09, 10:58
I picked up an M&P 40 at the gun shop on the way to work today and when I got in to work, I tried as hard as I could to resist the temptation of taking it out to the police range. :rolleyes: Well, I obviously could not... I was very concerned with the outcome of my short trip to the range.
A little background on myself and this particular pistol. I work full time as a police officer in a small town and I work part time in a gun shop. I am the department's firearms instructor (handgun, shotgun, patrol rifle and tactical shooting). I have been an instructor since 2001 and have attended 3 LE police instructor training schools in that time. I am not saying that I am the best shot by any means but I usually qualify as an expert. My last qualification I scored 299 out of a possible 300. I have been shooting regularly for about 20 years. So if I had to sum up what I am trying to say in so many words is that I shoot better than what the results were with this pistol. I own an M&P .45 and have for about 2 years. I purchased the M&P 40 today and ordered an M&P9c. I shoot the .45 very well but did not have it with me today to compare at the range.
The M&P 40 is the full sized 4.5" barrel and it has the standard Novak sights on it. I used our department issue Speer Lawman 180 grain practice ammo and a box of 180 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow points. The target I used was a DEA DOT target which is a 2 and a half foot tall by 1 and a half foot wide piece of cardboard with 6 numbered 3 and a half inch black circles on it.
I loaded the 3 mags with 15 rounds each of the practice ammo and fired a 5 shot string at circle number 1 (top left corner) at 25 yards. I hit the target about 6 inches above the dot with 2 rounds touching each other and one the same height and 5 and a half inches to the left. The other 2 rounds did not print. I decided that the poor marksmanship was because I was not yet familiar with the weapon yet. I then moved up to the 7 yard line and fired 5 rounds at dot number 2 (top right) I printed 4 rounds touching each other (1 inch group) and one flier a half inch above the group. The problem was that the group was about 3 inches higher than my point of aim. I shot 3 more groups of five shots at 10 and 15 yards and printed 2 to 4 inch groups all about 3 to 4 inches ABOVE the dot that I was aiming at. I then switched to the duty ammo (Gold Dots) and fired 2 more five shot groups. The groups tightened up a little bit but were still very high. I then took a piece of clean cardboard about 1 and a half foot square and placed a florescent green sticker in the center of it. I fired 10 shots very slowly at 25 yards and did not hit the cardboard at all.
I was very displeased with the performance of this pistol. I love the M&P line (almost as much as my Glocks) and I truly believe that this particular pistol has a problem. I can't believe that with my experience as a pistol shooter, while not the best, I could have shot this badly. My first thought is to contact Smith and Wesson and tell them my problem and see what they say. The sights seem to be centered on the slide and tight in the dovetail. Could there be a problem with the height of the front sight?? The barrel seems a little loose when it is in battery and the wear around the barrel seems to be a bit uneven but I only fired about 80 rounds. I know the grip angle is a bit different from the Glock but I shoot my M&P .45 very well. I hope I didn't waste money on this gun and the other one I ordered.
If anyone has any input, please feel free to chime in. Thanks in advance.
Cory I'd really like to know what happens with your M&P 40. I just got one myself. I have always been a 1911 owner and while not LE I still shoot daily. Just because I can walk out on my deck and do so. Been doing so for the last 10 years and have shot for 30 plus years. While I am able to get on paper at 25 yards slow fire it's all very high and and inconsistent. From 25 yards shooting slow at a 20 X20 piece of cardboard with an orange sticky in the center. In order to get on the cardboard I have a 6 oclock hold at the bottom and I am grouping at the top of the cardboard.
At first I thought it was me needing to get use to the trigger and grip of this gun, but after 500 rounds through my gun in a week it's no better. In fact with certain ammo like you I don't always hit the card board. I am very curious to see if more shooting results in the same problem. I have yet to call smith but am beginning to think I should.
Rickenbacker, from your post I have a very strong feeling that the M&P .40s require different sights. Low profile Novak's for all calibers may not be the answer for this line of pistols. I thought I was shooting high because I shoot Glocks on a very regular basis. This coming from a 1911 guy seems to open it up to the pistol, not the shooter. I shoot 1911s high but not this high. I just picked up the M&P 40c. I will compare the two this weekend. I was going to get the M&P9c but I have an endless supply of .40 ammo so it's more cost effective. I am really pointing toward the Warren tactical sights.
spamsammich
10-08-09, 15:10
Have you guys tried mp-pistol.com to see if others have experienced this?
Rickenbacker53
10-09-09, 08:53
Rickenbacker, from your post I have a very strong feeling that the M&P .40s require different sights. Low profile Novak's for all calibers may not be the answer for this line of pistols. I thought I was shooting high because I shoot Glocks on a very regular basis. This coming from a 1911 guy seems to open it up to the pistol, not the shooter. I shoot 1911s high but not this high. I just picked up the M&P 40c. I will compare the two this weekend. I was going to get the M&P9c but I have an endless supply of .40 ammo so it's more cost effective. I am really pointing toward the Warren tactical sights. Please keep me posted. I'd appreciate it
Did you change backstraps
Rickenbacker53
10-09-09, 11:01
Did you change backstraps
Thanks for the suggestion. But yeah I went through all the backstraps. Ended up with the large one. While it did improve my groups the height of the groups is way off.
If I was aiming to hit an attacker in the chest I'd have to aim at his crouch lol. That's a tad off.
I had the same problem 6 years ago with with a Taurus Revolver. Went and bought a new from sight and that solved the problem.
I called Smith this morning and the CS guy (without me even suggesting it) said send the gun back in and we will make it right. ) After hanging up I realized I forgot to mention that I had gotten a Burwell trigger job for carry . I would guess that fact will void my warranty so I am hoping to find a good sight for it. Most likely I will Smith would not fix my gun free. Or they would re-due my trigger. SO Cory COP please let me know what you do.
Littlelebowski
10-09-09, 11:48
Just send it in and be quiet about the trigger job.
Littlelebowski
10-09-09, 12:05
I sincerely doubt they're going to "re do" your trigger to bring it back to stock. Just cancel the service shipment and ask for a front sight of a different height as others have already suggested.
MarshallDodge
10-09-09, 12:49
I was very displeased with the performance of this pistol.
Sounds a little dramatic to me. :D
Mine shoots great with 180 grain bullets, a little less with 155 and 165. Hitting a 3x5 card at 50 feet is easy but I have always wondered what weight bullet S&W calibrates their sites for.
Grip, stance, sight picture, slow press to the rear and surprise when it goes off. Bullet impact almost 12 inches above point of aim........ Sounds pretty dramatic to me! :rolleyes:
Rickenbacker53
10-09-09, 13:27
I sincerely doubt they're going to "re do" your trigger to bring it back to stock. Just cancel the service shipment and ask for a front sight of a different height as others have already suggested. They may not, but I have a Ruger Blackhawk I sent back for a cracked cylinder. Ruger saw fit to re-due my trigger job. Political correctness and all-I did read the post that suggested asking for a different front sight.
ME TOO!! i have always shot revolvers and 1911's, both for duty and sport etc etc. i recently picked up a M&P 40 cal. and have a buddy with a beretta 96 and son has a sig, all in 40 cal. yesterday we went out to the back yard/woods and i hung up a steel 18" plate from a chain and we proceeded to bang away. with all 3 pistols, at a measured 45 feet, we have to hold low and right, to a varying degree, to hit the plate. i provided 3 diff. kinds of reloads and they chipped in 2 diff. brands factory ammo. best we could was every 2-3 shots were hits, and had to use kentucky windage and elevation. very disappointing. is this normal with these types of guns? i hauled out the commander in .45 acp and using 10-12 yr. old reloads we were keeping em in a 4" circle with no problem at all. it does have a fitted bill wilson bbl. and bushing etc but i did the work myself years ago and its had thounds of rounds since then. we're all about to sell theses things and go back to the old ways. is this type of crappy accurracy normal?
ALSO... to clarify.....i had to hold on the very bottom of the plate and to the right to hit the plate occassionally. we tried a paper target with same results. hits high and left regardless of ammo. i expected better of S&W. gun has maybe 200 rds thru it.
RogerinTPA
10-11-09, 21:09
To the OP, sorry about your experience with you M&P40, but on occasion, a lemon will get by the best QC out there. Mine has been running great(3K rounds so far) right out the box. It's only on my FS9 that I had issues with the front sight, and only when I changed them out. It shot an inch and a half low with the new sights, so I had to purchase a lower front sight, based on the advise given on this forum.
ME TOO!! i have always shot revolvers and 1911's, both for duty and sport etc etc. i recently picked up a M&P 40 cal. and have a buddy with a beretta 96 and son has a sig, all in 40 cal. yesterday we went out to the back yard/woods and i hung up a steel 18" plate from a chain and we proceeded to bang away. with all 3 pistols, at a measured 45 feet, we have to hold low and right, to a varying degree, to hit the plate. i provided 3 diff. kinds of reloads and they chipped in 2 diff. brands factory ammo. best we could was every 2-3 shots were hits, and had to use kentucky windage and elevation. very disappointing. is this normal with these types of guns? i hauled out the commander in .45 acp and using 10-12 yr. old reloads we were keeping em in a 4" circle with no problem at all. it does have a fitted bill wilson bbl. and bushing etc but i did the work myself years ago and its had thounds of rounds since then. we're all about to sell theses things and go back to the old ways. is this type of crappy accurracy normal?
I have no clue how to respond to your post and not offend you so I'll just say I own 10 Sig pistols in 9mm , 40S&W AND 45acp and a new S&W M&P 9 Pro and I can hit an 18" steel plate at 15 yards with ease.
I have no clue why you and your buddy and Son couldn't but It's not the Platform of pistol you were using.:confused:
well, 3 of us all had the same result with the same gun and none of us are noobies at it. we don't compete for a living but we average maybe 2000 rds a year each. reading some of the other posts before mine i think maybe it IS the platform. did you read the other posts too? but i appreciate the courtesy reply in any case.
well, 3 of us all had the same result with the same gun and none of us are noobies at it. we don't compete for a living but we average maybe 2000 rds a year each. reading some of the other posts before mine i think maybe it IS the platform. did you read the other posts too? but i appreciate the courtesy reply in any case.
I guess where I'm confused is this part of your post where you stated that with a M&P 40 cal and a buddy with a beretta 96 and son with a sig, all in 40 cal with all 3 pistols, at a measured 45 feet, we have to hold low and right, to a varying degree, to hit the plate. i provided 3 diff. kinds of reloads and they chipped in 2 diff. brands factory ammo. best we could was every 2-3 shots were hits, and had to use kentucky windage and elevation. very disappointing. is this normal with these types of guns?
So you're saying that not one of you with any of the three above mentioned weapons could hit an 18" steel plate? SigSauer , Beretta and Smith and Wesson all make quality handguns so maybe there is some kind of mechanical issue with all three guns??? I would go back to your 1911 as well if I had that result.
BTW. Not too many Law enforcement agencies or the Military for that matter use 1911's and if the accuracy was as bad as you experienced with Sig , Beretta and S&W I doubt anyone would be using them to stay alive.
naw, we hit it, just not as regularly as we wanted to
I was unable to make it to the range on Friday due to rain. Unfortunately, that meant battling the Saturday crowd. I live about 5 miles away from the New Jersey border so my local range gets full of New Jersey-ites wanting a taste of second amendment freedom. Due to this, I was unable to shoot at the 25 yard line and had to settle for the 15 yard line.
I brought all three of my M&P pistols. My full size M&P.45, M&P.40(the problem pistol) and my new M&P .40c. Ammunition was Hornady 230 grain +P JHP .45ACP, .40 S&W Speer Lawman 180 grain TMJ and .40 S&W Speer Gold Dot 180 grain JHP. I forgot to bring my TQ-19 targets so all I had was NRA 25 yard slow fire pistol targets and a few 9" paper plates. The NRA targets are 1 foot square and have a 10" diameter scoring ring. I set two targets up one on top of the other and put 2" target dot stickers over the 10 ring.
I first fired the M&P .45 because I have had that one for a while and knew that it shot rather well. Remember, I shoot Glocks mainly and do not have too much range time with the M&Ps. I fired 10 rounds from the .45 and all rounds were on target and relatively center. Any rounds out of the black were shooter error. Shot about a 5" group with two fliers.
I then changed out the bottom target and loaded up the full size .40 (problem pistol). I fired a 10 shot group and all rounds grouped at about 5 inches high and about 3 inches to the left. Two of the rounds were off paper and into the upper target just under 7 inches above point of aim and 3 inches to the left.
I then loaded up the M&P .40c and was very skeptical about its performance. I used the magazine with the finger extension so it was as comfortable as possible. I fired a 10 shot group and was quite surprised with the performance of this little gun! I shot about a 3.5 inch group with two fliers about an inch high and all rounds were about a half inch high of point of aim. I had one failure to feed but it was due to me pushing up on the slide stop with my thumb while shooting.
I moved on to some steel plates with the full size .40 and managed to hit 4 out of 6 plates. The misses were above the plates. The plates were different sizes and shapes and I missed the triangle and the smaller circle. I then shot another group of 10 at a 9" paper plate and only hit the plate about 6 times in the 10 o'clock position. I fired the M&P .40c and hit all of the plates without a hiccup.
I handed over the three pistols to two of the range masters and they both shot very high with the full size .40 and I thought I was going to have to take my .40c back by force because they both wanted to take it home with them.
To summarize, I have to say that these three pistols are not Glocks. I shoot the Glocks much better and they feel much better in my hands and the Glock trigger is far superior IMHO. The M&P .45 needs a trigger job BADLY! The range master had the same pistol without the night sights and the trigger was MUCH nicer. Mr. Burwell, get ready for a package :D. For the full size M&P .40, this one will get sent back to Smith & Wesson. I will ship the target and some spent brass along in the package and inform them of my findings and also ask them what they recommend in a night sight because other than my son's Walther P22, this is the only handgun I own without night sights. As for the M&P .40c, I will fit this one with a TLR3 and because of the magazine disconnect feature in this pistol, it will become my bedside HD pistol.
I hope this answers a lot of questions other M&P owners have with their pistols with similar problems. I guess there are some lemons in this product line but I know Smith & Wesson has great customer service and they will fix the issues. I suggest that anyone having similar issues with their M&Ps send theirs back also because I don't believe that in the condition my full size M&P .40 is in right now, I would bet my life on it. And who knows, in 12/09 or 1/10 when the gen 4 Glocks appear, I may have 2 or 3 M&Ps for sale :D.
Littlelebowski
10-12-09, 07:24
You could just buy some Warren night sights. Many M&P owners use them on this site. Seriously, draw from this site's collected knowledge.
Littlelebowski, see post #6 in this thread. I agree with you 100% but what is causing the shots to go so far left? The sights are centered so I am wondering if there is something wrong with the machining of the barrel or slide. If the hole in the slide where the barrel comes through is off center the accuracy will be off even with the best sights. If there is a problem with the quality control of this line of weapons, Smith & Wesson should know about it so they can correct the problem for others. I think the knowledge in this forum is amazing that is why I am posting here instead of anywhere else.
MarshallDodge
10-12-09, 17:30
There can only be three issues here, a problem with the gun, ammo, or shooter. If you do not feel that it is a shooter or ammo problem then call S&W and tell them that you are having accuracy issues and you feel that the trigger is not as good as expected. They built it and they can fix it.
I put a little Super Lube grease on the major contact points of my M&P's trigger group and it really improved things.
Littlelebowski, see post #6 in this thread. I agree with you 100% but what is causing the shots to go so far left?
Not all guns shoot exactly to POA when the sights are mechanically centered in the slide. That's the whole reason for having drift-adjustable sights on a pistol. I've had plenty of guns from multiple manufacturers exhibit this.
Also, it's not uncommon for certain loads to print farther left or right than other loads through the same gun. Two guns I've carried suffered this issue, in both cases they printed about 2-3" off windage at 25yd when switching from my practice ammo to my carry ammo. Switch practice ammo, switch carry ammo, or zero your gun for the duty ammo and accept that your hits will be off by 2-3" at 25yd when practicing.
In your previous post, were those results from a rest or offhand? Given how many fliers you reported, I'll assume it was offhand. You're not going to get reliable results shooting single groups offhand. Bench the gun.
(if you were getting 5+ inch groups with fliers at 15yd from a rest, you need to work on your sight alignment and trigger control more)
I've owned and been shooting my M&P.40 for quite sometime. It's my IPSC gun and training weapon for all my classes. I've had no modifications to it whatsoever. Just shoot it stock. I've put 3k max through it. I've used all different types of ammo. Always 180gr. I now shoot my own 180gr HP loads at 6.6gr. The weapon is top notch performer for me stock. Most accurate with my reloads. I have nothing but positive experiences and results with it.
finally connected w/a S W rep on the phone and am gonna send the 40 cal back to see why its shooting high and left. he said a factory trigger job is in the $160 range if i want that done at the same time. anyone had it done to their M P? was it worth it? opinions? thanks
decodeddiesel
10-21-09, 16:35
finally connected w/a S W rep on the phone and am gonna send the 40 cal back to see why its shooting high and left. he said a factory trigger job is in the $160 range if i want that done at the same time. anyone had it done to their M P? was it worth it? opinions? thanks
If S&W is going to ship it both ways on their dime I was absolutely have the Performance Center do a trigger job for you!
yea, they are gonna send me a shipping label and instructions etc etc
Cincinnatus
10-29-09, 22:02
I had to call S&W about an unrelated issue today. I asked about the issue with my M&P and the rep said don't waste time just send it back. I still want to shoot it one more time before i ship it out. My buddy just got a ransom rest but it hasn't arrive in the mail yet. We shall see this weekend...
I had to send a 1911 back to S&W a few months back and was astounded at how fast they serviced it and shipped it back I got it back about two weeks after sending it out so total turn around was 2 weeks!! I don't know if M&Ps take longer or not, but I was impressed.
confession time i guess. they ( S&W) sent me the shipping labels etc to ship it back but i decided one more test was in order first. i sand bagged it on my picnic table out back and at a measured 58 ' (distance to nearest tree) i put up a plywood backstop and a paper target and 3 shots measured 3.5" off the bag. have been shooting 1911's and revolvers for 40 years and guess i just need to get used to this type pistol.
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