View Full Version : Ford 351W vs chevy 350---how do they compare?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-09-09, 12:59
Hey guys,
I am thinking about replacing the 289 in my old 67' Bronco with a 351W. I was wondering if anyone here knows how the famous chevy 350 and it compare in similar applications?
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 13:11
I have worked on both rebuilt both and raced both. What exactly do you want to know?
I'm no wrench but I would simply go with the 351 just to keep the parts in the same family amigo.
Sounds like a cool project...had two broncos back in the 80's. They were great rides. Both had the 351's & the 84 came with the H.O. engine...it made the 81 seem like a snail.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-09-09, 13:14
Just general comparison info. I know, for example, the Chevy is cheaper to work on.
Business_Casual
10-09-09, 13:28
I may be completely wrong, but I thought hot-rodders picked the Chevy 350 more often because it was easier to work on and a better motor. The Windsor was, if I remember correctly, less reliable when performance parts were added. Also, you can swing a dead cat and hit parts to "soup up" a Chevy 350.
As an aside, have you considered a crate motor from Roush? That would be pretty easy and it would run on pump gas.
M_P
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 13:28
Yea generally chevy will be cheaper to work on and easier to find parts.
Me personally I like the 351Windsor I have never been a fan of Siamese intake and exhaust ports on the chevy. It really depends on what exactly you want to do. If your are wanting a strict race car I would say chevy just because it is cheap and everybody has parts. If you are wanting more of a everyday driver then I would say 351windsor.
350 Chevy is bulletproof.
It will run 300k miles easy.
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 13:34
I may be completely wrong, but I thought hot-rodders picked the Chevy 350 more often because it was easier to work on and a better motor. The Windsor was, if I remember correctly, less reliable when performance parts were added. Also, you can swing a dead cat and hit parts to "soup up" a Chevy 350.
As an aside, have you considered a crate motor from Roush? That would be pretty easy and it would run on pump gas.
M_P
I used to work on a full drag race pinto with a 315w stock crank, stock rods, solid roller lunati camshaft shift point 8200 rpms 2 stage nitrous system that motor ran for more than 4 years in that configuration before the crank finally gave way never seen a chevy handle that.
Chevy is popular because it is plentiful and cheap if you are racing really Racing you are going to go through motors it is a lot cheaper and easier to replace chevy motors than ford motors.
Business_Casual
10-09-09, 13:46
It would appear that I am completely wrong, then.
M_P
EzGoingKev
10-09-09, 13:55
The Chevrolet small block has many advantages over the Ford small block:
- Heavy duty, high nickle content block w/ 4 bolt nodular iron main caps vs cast blocks w/ cast 2 bolt mains.
- Forged steel crankshafts vs cast iron crankshafts.
- Forged steel connecting rods w/ 3/8" rod bolts vs 5/16" rod bolts.
- Superior oiling system.
- 17 head bolts vs 10 head bolts.
- Heads featuring larger valve sizes for improved performance.
- Simpler cooling system
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 14:10
350 Chevy is bulletproof.
It will run 300k miles easy.
LOL never seen 300k from a any kind of chevy maybe if you had a ford towing it :D
In all seriousness before this turn into a ford vs chevy.
Greg you said you are wanting to put it in a 67 Bronco so I am going to assume that you are not building a race truck more of a every day driver with some good pep.
You have a couple of choices 1st custom build which you have to find a machine shop that machine shop to do the machining and or the assemble of the motor.
2nd a create motor I have seen good and bad with create motors be sure the company as a top notch reputation.
3rd which I have done a few times and so far it has worked pretty good and has been more affordable is to check out every wrecking yard for a Late model car with a 351 windsor or 350 chevy now dealing with wrecking yards you have to do a lot of dealing and be on you toes every engine that I pull from the wrecking yard I have to see it running before I buy and or have a written warranty of some sort. I also do a compression test on every cylinder. I only get LATE MODEL engines ones that have EFI and factory roller cams get it home pull all of the EFI off replace with dual plane aluminum perf intake manifold install a Holley street avenger carb [ Its factory pre tunned every one I have install so far all I had to do was adj the float level and set the choke] Other holley's I have had them leak straight out of the box and no wear in any kind of tuning. Change the dist to a aftermarket one with vacuum advance leave the factory serpentine belt drive set up install headers and a good exhaust system. I do not even change out the cam [ You can if you want to just make sure it is a small perf cam that will work with your size carb . rear end gears and stall converter if you are running a automatic trans.]
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 14:19
The Chevrolet small block has many advantages over the Ford small block:
- Heavy duty, high nickle content block w/ 4 bolt nodular iron main caps vs cast blocks w/ cast 2 bolt mains.
- Forged steel crankshafts vs cast iron crankshafts.
- Forged steel connecting rods w/ 3/8" rod bolts vs 5/16" rod bolts.
- Superior oiling system.
- 17 head bolts vs 10 head bolts.
- Heads featuring larger valve sizes for improved performance.
- Simpler cooling system
Yeap except with the Siamese exhaust it is more prone to knock and they sling rods like nobodies business I guess the oiling system is not that superior other than that there great Oh yea the water pump tends to leak too.
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 14:38
In all fairness both chevy and fords are good with the late model ones. The early model ones I have messed with nothing but problems but the late model one can be made into a really good running engine on the cheap. Best bang for the buck I have ever put together was a 350 TBI roller cam motor from a caprice pulled all the TBI stuff off put an edelbroke dual plane intake. 570 cfm holley street avenger after market vacum distributor headers and exhaust system. Droped in a 86 cutless with 3.73:1 rear gears and a 2800 rpm stall converter very fun car cheapest little street and strip car I have seen yet. Everbody called it the Black magic marker :D
LOL never seen 300k from a any kind of chevy maybe if you had a ford towing it :D
My '91 s10 blazer is at 289k, factory engine. Still makes enough power to tow a small trailer up the mountain! Replaced the tranny at 210 thousand, and that's been the only major build. Stock everything else. Two owners, My father and myself.
Dad owns a street rod shop, where I worked until I was 20 years old.
Seen a lot of stock 350's that come in to be built up, that still run well enough. Had one at 320k, with 30% leak in four cylinders, 40% in two others, and 60% in the rear. Still ran!
But I'm a Bronco fan too. Put a 302 in a Bronco 2 a few years ago. Pretty gnarly! The guy took it down to California and broke the axles out from under it jumping dunes.
Thomas M-4
10-09-09, 15:38
My '91 s10 blazer is at 289k, factory engine. Still makes enough power to tow a small trailer up the mountain! Replaced the tranny at 210 thousand, and that's been the only major build. Stock everything else. Two owners, My father and myself.
Dad owns a street rod shop, where I worked until I was 20 years old.
Seen a lot of stock 350's that come in to be built up, that still run well enough. Had one at 320k, with 30% leak in four cylinders, 40% in two others, and 60% in the rear. Still ran!
But I'm a Bronco fan too. Put a 302 in a Bronco 2 a few years ago. Pretty gnarly! The guy took it down to California and broke the axles out from under it jumping dunes.
Yea worked in a few shops over the years kinda got burned out on mechanic work. I have seen ford 302 with leaky cylinders still run strong I have seen a few 350 with high 200k miles all the owners where very good in changing the oil and general PM. Seen a ford 5.0 with stage one NOS kit and bolt ons still run very strong with 180k miles stock everything except for the bolt ons and gears hell the valve covers had never been off. I have no problem with chevy especially the LS1 but my personal experience with the older style 350 with the Siamese intake and exhaust were 2 always reoccurring problems burnt exhaust valves or thrown rods not to say I have not had some nice experiences with them I have but those 2 problems I see more in a chevy than a ford YMMV but I cant see how:p .
My suggestion greg find a late model explorer with a .302 efi preferably with the GT-40P heads in good condition pull the EFI off put a good dual plane perf intake manifold holley street avenger carb 570 cfm, long tube headers good exhaust system. Keep the late model serpentine belt drive on the motor and swap the efi dist for a perf vacume dist and bee done with it if you want to put a camshaft in it the I would recommend the E-303 no bigger E-303 or stock .
350 Chevy is bulletproof.
It will run 300k miles easy.
No it won't
I pulled a 302 out of an '80 Bronco and replaced it with a 351w, 268 adv duration comp cam, indexed crank, 1.6 roller rockers, etc etc.
If I was to do it again, i would have just put the money into stroking the 302 and not had to fight new accessories, clearance problems (no, deck height and width are not the same) and all of the other little problems like having to remove a motor mount bolt and lift the engine to get the old oil filter out from between the frame rail and the block. Nobody mentions these minor bumps when they say it will "bolt right up". That's a lie, it's never that easy.
Your 289 can be stroked to a 347cu with relative ease, and for not much more than a complete rebuild with no questions about fitment, bracketing, or clearance.
Article here: http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/17460_stroker_engine_build/index.html
Something to consider.
bbvette427
10-09-09, 18:49
Don't no alot about older broncos but will a front or rear oil sump make a difference.
Don Robison
10-09-09, 20:19
I've got a 351W in my 76 Bronco. Please don't abort a fine machine by dumping a 350 in it just because it's cheap.
That said, a few things you will want to do if you go the 351 route:
Upgrade to an aluminum radiator
Upgrade to an electric fan(the largest one you can fit) space will be tight in front; the mechanical fan will hit the radiator if you do any water crossing.
Drill and Tap the rear water cross over in the intake for additional cooling
Plan on cutting the hood or replacing it with one that has a bubble of some type unless you plan on using a 2 barrel and the stock offset air cleaner assembly.
If you have the 3sp manual plan on upgrading to a 4sp or C4; the 3sp won't hold up long with the torque if you hammer it much or run even a mildly aggressive tire, the same with the output shaft on the transfer case. Both are easy upgrades, but not necessarily cheap.
I've bought from Jeff's for years both mail/internet order and in their shop. IMHO they are the BCM of Bronco's.
http://broncograveyard.com/
Here is mine.........
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s69/Donr101395/327425f9.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-09-09, 21:13
Killer Bronco! Here is mine.
http://gallery.me.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/IMG_0085/web.jpg?ver=12525514480001
Hey, there is no way I am putting a 350 in it. I was just wondering about the two engines. It looks like they are similar but the Ford is a little more costly to hop-up. No biggie.
Nice Broncos from both of you. I miss my '71 and '74, but the Northeast climate destroyed both of them and I couldn't afford to fix them up at the time. Why not try a crate 302 for the space saving and cost benefits? All these Bronco threads lately have me looking at current prices locally.
Don Robison
10-09-09, 21:33
Killer Bronco! Here is mine.
Hey, there is no way I am putting a 350 in it. I was just wondering about the two engines. It looks like they are similar but the Ford is a little more costly to hop-up. No biggie.
Thanks, it was my daily driver and only vehicle from 93 until 06. It's more of a toy now though. From 02 on I modded it so much that if finally became not so cheap to take on a 2000 mile trip. With a stock cam, 2bbl, 31" all terrain tires and no lockers I used to get 19mpg in town and 21mpg on the highway. Now with a 4bbl, mild cam, 33" TSLs and lockers I get about 11mpg on the highway and 9mpg around town.
Yep, they are more expensive, but worth it IMO.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-10-09, 12:32
What is the deal with that paint?:D
Don Robison
10-10-09, 13:48
What is the deal with that paint?:D
I always focused more on performance:D :cool:
MPi-KMS-72
10-10-09, 16:55
My suggestion greg find a late model explorer with a .302 efi preferably with the GT-40P heads in good condition pull the EFI off put a good dual plane perf intake manifold holley street avenger carb 570 cfm, long tube headers good exhaust system. Keep the late model serpentine belt drive on the motor and swap the efi dist for a perf vacume dist and bee done with it if you want to put a camshaft in it the I would recommend the E-303 no bigger E-303 or stock .
I have been thinking about essentially the same thing though with keeping the EFI, for a swap into a Land Rover 109. Everything I have researched about the Exploiter 5.0 and GT-40 heads has been good. I already have a Ford T18 transmission hooked to a Land Rover LT-230 transfer case so it looks like a good way to go.
My suggestion greg find a late model explorer with a .302 efi preferably with the GT-40P heads in good condition pull the EFI off put a good dual plane perf intake manifold holley street avenger carb 570 cfm, long tube headers good exhaust system. Keep the late model serpentine belt drive on the motor and swap the efi dist for a perf vacume dist and bee done with it if you want to put a camshaft in it the I would recommend the E-303 no bigger E-303 or stock .
I was thinking of an EFI out of a newer Ford for a similar project. What are your thoughts on doing the swap with a 4.6 (I have not looked into it at all yet)?
P.S. Where were all of you guys when I tried to start my EB pic/info thread a month ago?:D
MPi-KMS-72
10-10-09, 17:23
I was thinking of an EFI out of a newer Ford for a similar project. What are your thoughts on doing the swap with a 4.6 (I have not looked into it at all yet)?
P.S. Where were all of you guys when I tried to start my EB pic/info thread a month ago?:D
the 4.6 is huge(wide), I don't know how that would fit in an EB engine compartment but to be honest I have't looked under the hood of an EB in 8 years... I KNOW it wouldn't work in my project because if its size ( I had 2 of the 4.6's on hand and they'd have been free to use if i could have fit them). 302 with Mass Air EFI was looking like the best route for me.
http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/motor-4.6-4V-004.jpg
Don Robison
10-10-09, 17:53
I was thinking of an EFI out of a newer Ford for a similar project. What are your thoughts on doing the swap with a 4.6 (I have not looked into it at all yet)?
P.S. Where were all of you guys when I tried to start my EB pic/info thread a month ago?:D
I won't say impossible because anything is possible; but IMHO not worth the hassle and extra work required to get the 4.6 to fit. Like has been suggested and EFI 5.0 is the way to go now days. Back when I did mine the 351W was "it". There are plenty of 5.0 Mustang GTs in the junk yards now to draw from and you don't have the hood and radiator issues of a 351W swap. The GT40P heads create some header and spark plug issues in the EB, but can be done.
Thanks guys. As stated, I hadn't even looked into it yet so I didn't know if it would mount right up or not. By the pics and info posted, a newer 302 would be the obvious option.
Thomas M-4
10-10-09, 18:52
I won't say impossible because anything is possible; but IMHO not worth the hassle and extra work required to get the 4.6 to fit. Like has been suggested and EFI 5.0 is the way to go now days. Back when I did mine the 351W was "it". There are plenty of 5.0 Mustang GTs in the junk yards now to draw from and you don't have the hood and radiator issues of a 351W swap. The GT40P heads create some header and spark plug issues in the EB, but can be done.
Agree 4.6 liter is big boy not to mention extra wiring with OBDII computer would be better off with a 302 from an explorer or stang if you want to keep the EFI it is fairly easy to do If you are comfortable with working on EFI painless wiring makes a wiring harness kit you can also pull the wiring harness out of the donor car/suv and splice and make your own harness if you are good at wiring and don't mind the time it would take to do it. Then you have to convert the fuel system to work with EFI that is not a big deal either. The car mags say you need special headers for GT-40 P heads:confused: but I have seen them work with regular headers you have to dimple the tubes for clearance the few that I have done [All in mustangs they didn't need much dimpling] I have found it works for me to test fit the headers before you drop in the motor I do it on the engine stand for longtubes but you can also do it with the engine hanging on the cherry picker just bolt them on and see were you need to dimple them for clearance.
Hey guys,
I am thinking about replacing the 289 in my old 67' Bronco with a 351W. I was wondering if anyone here knows how the famous chevy 350 and it compare in similar applications?
I'm an ex-Ford Powertrain engineer. I'd go with the Chevy. Okay, I'm also an ex-Chevrolet powertrain engineer, too.
There are far more parts available for The Small Block (350 cid Chevy). That makes it less expensive to work on.
Either will do you well if what you want is a mildly cammed torquey engine.
Hey guys,
I am thinking about replacing the 289 in my old 67' Bronco with a 351W. I was wondering if anyone here knows how the famous chevy 350 and it compare in similar applications?
That's an easy question. The 350 is a bad choice because Fords are better than Chevys. :p
Joe Mamma
It's the wrong choice -351W or 350 Chev. It's not the engine, as some have pointed out - its the accessories. The first problem with any major change out is bolting it up to the transmission.
350 Chevy's do not directly bolt up. Motor mounts? No. Electrical? Wired wrong. Exhaust? Gotta change it out. Oil Pan? Wrong sump location if you're not careful. Big Bad Hot Rod Motor? Completely inadequate brakes now. EFI? Which fuel pump, and how to stuff one in a non-EFI tank, plus expense, and finding a donor wiring harness, computer, etc. Radiator? Needs to be much bigger, plus do the hoses work at all, or is a custom radiator what you have to buy?
Serpentine belt or V? How does the power steering pump hook up - and no, the factory does not sit around figuring out what works if they never made it that way. You have to. You're the engineer.
Some say the 350 is cheaper - it is, if you're building it up with hot rod power, but what has that got to do with fourwheeling bad terrain? You still need lockers, big tires, and extraction equipment. The real figure is how much it costs to make it work right - not when a cheap motor has been shoehorned in with more horsepower than the smallest gear in the transmission is rated.
A stroker motor is the best answer - it's bigger, puts out more horsepower, and completely bolts in using all the same stuff that's under the hood now. It also runs better, has a smoother more usable torque curve compatible with the rest of the drivetrain, and won't break something major the first week out.
As for the 350 Chev, Smokey Yunick had a long career with it and wrote up it's faults in his book. Sure it's cheaper - exactly that. The compact layout requires siamesed cylinders that promote overheating, the distributor drives at the wrong end of the block, making the cam a torsion bar incapable of staying in time, and the market is filled with bandaids too many hotrodders mistakenly think they need because the magazines are filled with ads.
That last could be said about the Ford, too, which is why I drive an honest 4WD called a Jeep Cherokee. :D
But old Bronco's are OK.
Don Robison
10-11-09, 21:48
I'm an ex-Ford Powertrain engineer. I'd go with the Chevy. Okay, I'm also an ex-Chevrolet powertrain engineer, too.
Dang, another reason this board is a great source of information. Not only do we have some of the best SME's for the M4; we have powertrain engineers from Ford and GM.:D LOL
MPi-KMS-72
10-12-09, 15:54
Hey guys,
I am thinking about replacing the 289 in my old 67' Bronco with a 351W.
Just out of curiosity- what is wrong with your 289?
Just out of curiosity- what is wrong with your 289?
That's what I was thinking reading through this thread. I'd simply rebuild that sucker. You can get much more performance out of it if that's what you're after. Unless you're jacking up the Bronco and installing much larger tires I don't really see any need to go with a 351.
If you are looking for the cubic inches then you could go with a 347 stroke. The 351w is heavier by about 150 lbs. The deck hiegth is about 1.5 inches taller than the 289/302. I would recommend going with an injected 5.0 with aluminum heads as teh head will lose you about 50 lbs over the front end and really increse your performance.
If you are looking for the cubic inches then you could go with a 347 stroke. The 351w is heavier by about 150 lbs. The deck hiegth is about 1.5 inches taller than the 289/302. I would recommend going with an injected 5.0 with aluminum heads as teh head will lose you about 50 lbs over the front end and really increse your performance.
I agree, you can build the 289 to a 302 (or stroker) with a parts swap, and use a Holly projection system.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-13-09, 13:52
Nothing is wrong. It is just old. The truck has about 3.5 inch lift and mild tires. Nothing crazy. I am going to have it painted gunmetal (of course!) gray and I figured I might as well rebuild the motor while I was at it. I think I am going to rebuild it.
Hey, how reliable are the strokers? I remember in my VW days strokers were very short lived. Can you build a nice reliable stroker? I want more power but I want a mild motor
Thomas M-4
10-13-09, 14:04
Nothing is wrong. It is just old. The truck has about 3.5 inch lift and mild tires. Nothing crazy. I am going to have it painted gunmetal (of course!) gray and I figured I might as well rebuild the motor while I was at it. I think I am going to rebuild it.
Hey, how reliable are the strokers? I remember in my VW days strokers were very short lived. Can you build a nice reliable stroker? I want more power but I want a mild motor
347 stroker has an expected piston ring life of about 80,000 miles 331 stroker over 100,000+ mile piston ring life. Of course other factors play into it PM, RPM,S .
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-13-09, 14:16
I drive like a grandma.
Thomas M-4
10-13-09, 14:22
I drive like a grandma.
It all really depends on what you want you can get it built if you have $$$$$$$$$$
MPi-KMS-72
10-13-09, 17:34
Nothing is wrong. It is just old. The truck has about 3.5 inch lift and mild tires. Nothing crazy. I am going to have it painted gunmetal (of course!) gray and I figured I might as well rebuild the motor while I was at it. I think I am going to rebuild it.
Those Early Broncos are really neat classics- how content have you been with the performance of the original engine? Maybe a good quality rebuild of the original is all you'd really need. Depending on the condition of the rest of the Bronco and what you've done to it I'd think that retaining the original engine might be an advantage in the long run. It might not be as much fun as a 351 or big block swap or a Cummins 4bt or something neato but it would be a sensible choice.
The stroker kits ford the small block ford have been very reliable. Personally I have a late model Bronco with a 351. For an older Bronco like what you have I would source an injection system off of a 89-93 mustang with mass air. I would run an e-303 cam, 1.7 rocker arms, and advance the cam timing by two degrees, a set of iron gt 40 heads (cheap power) or go with a set of aluminum elebrock 1.94 heads for a truck. I have run tfs head with the 2.02 valve and they have pulled like a raped ape but I imagine you would look for more torque. I would skip the stroker idea and put my money into these parts and have a soild performer that will pull from 1500 - 6000 rpm. The later model injection set up is cheap to come by, starts all the time, and idles well with a cam.
Don Robison
10-14-09, 22:43
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