View Full Version : For training new shooters, what are some of the best choices for .22 handguns?
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 09:30
What are some examples of the "gold standard" for .22 target handguns? What is the classic target .22 pistol? What is the classic target .22 revolver?
LockenLoad
10-11-09, 09:50
Hi standard made some good .22 target pistols, whether our not that meets the gold standard I don't know
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:02
By "gold standard" I am simply using a term that is overly used across many forums... sort of means the standard by which others are measured. For instance, it can be reasonably argued that the Colt LE6920 is the "gold standard" by which all M4 carbine type weapons are measured. Ubiquitous and reliable.
RAM Engineer
10-11-09, 10:05
I think the S&W K-22 is the "gold standard" as far as revolvers go. S&W jet rereleased them under their classic line. Too bad it has the key lock, although I'm not sure that would be a deal breaker for a strictly target gun.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:10
Ah, like this here?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/160578_large.jpg
Model 617 Revolver - 6", 10-Shot
ruger mark2 or the S&W 41
i think the 41 is "top tier" but not everyone has ~$800 for a "plinker"
RAM Engineer
10-11-09, 10:16
That would be the modern, stainless, full underlug version. I was thinking about this version specifically, since you said "classic":
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=86943&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=48302&isFirearm=Y
My grandfather did a LOT of gun trading, but he always kept his K-22.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:21
I am not looking for a repro gun. I want solid, .22 target handguns. It seems I am not communicating clearly, so let me rephrase:
To facilitate training new shooters, what are some of the best current choices for .22 revolvers and pistols?
For an auto the S&W-41 and for the revolver the S&W K-22 IMHO. While I don't personally own either I have borrowed multiple examples of both from my father and have shot them quite a bit.
Beretta NEOS
if you can find a Beretta 87, I've always thought they were about as good as it gets without being to "targetical"
Chris
RAM Engineer
10-11-09, 10:29
In that case, then I think the 617 like you posted would be excellent. I'm no experienced trainer, but for someone totally new to guns I think revolvers are great to learn on, because the mechanics of operating it are so simple, the new shooter can concentrate on what's important: sight alignment & trigger control.
For an auto the S&W-41 and for the revolver the S&W K-22 IMHO. While I don't personally own either I have borrowed multiple examples of both from my father and have shot them quite a bit.
this is the answer.
to add to the auto selection, I would add the High Standard Citation as it is an incredible target pistol but not so good as a trainer as it has a very light trigger with target stocks and none of the controls seem to be in standard locations.
if you include the modifier of training new shooters, I would look for a gun as similar to the centerfire gun as you can. for this reason, I like the Browning Buckmark as it has the mag release in the correct position and other controls are similar. it is quite accurate at the ranges you'll be training at as well...
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:36
Just to further clarify, I am not referring to a competition target handgun. I want a semi-auto and a revolver specifically to train new shooters.
The conversation pretty much stops and starts with the Ruger MkII, IMO. Buying anything else requires you to first make an excuse why you're not buying a MkII.
Ruger Single Six for a fun revolver. I don't know that I would call it a "target" revolver though.
ETA: in college our pistol team had 3 choices for guns. Walther GSP, S&W Model 41 and Ruger Mk2. I shot them all, but chose the GSP because it was the newest and coolest. The Mk2 was a great practice gun. The Model 41s were very accurate (hey, they were all accurate) but they were so old that they were a bit dodgy in reliability.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:42
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/130511_large.jpg
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/images/051401m.jpg
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/408L.jpg
John_Wayne777
10-11-09, 10:44
I am not looking for a repro gun. I want solid, .22 target handguns. It seems I am not communicating clearly, so let me rephrase:
To facilitate training new shooters, what are some of the best current choices for .22 revolvers and pistols?
S&W .22 revolvers are the best of their breed. They are expensive, but worth it. I prefer the model 18 myself because it's basically a model 19 in .22LR. It was designed as a cheaper training alternative for police departments. Unfortunately my model 18 that I searched high and low to get had a serious problem so I had to get rid of it.
I'm hoping to get a J frame in .22LR soon to help with developing skill with my J frame 442.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of the .22LR S&W revolvers out there for training new shooters and for general merriment.
As for autos, I'm quite fond of the Ruger MK-II. I brought my Ruger MK-II and a bunch of .22R along during the VCDL 2nd amendment thing earlier this year because I had a feeling it would stretch the instruction time and it would help brand new shooters who might be afraid of recoil.
The kids all seemed to love shooting the MK-II. The relatively good trigger and easy to see sights helped them shoot very well. Every MK-II I've ever fired has been dead nuts reliable with any sort of .22LR ammo that I've crammed in it. They are pretty easy to work on, don't require much in the way of maintenance, and they are generally pretty accurate.
I have a 5" bull-barreled SS version of the MK-II. Using el-cheapo American Eagle bulk .22 ammo it was accurate enough for me to shoot at the primer in a spent 20 gauge shotgun shell at about 7 yards and actually hit the primer. Can't ask for much better than that.
As for "gold standard" for semi-autos, it would have to be the S&W 41...but they are expensive bastards. While they are extremely nice, performance wise, I never was able to justify the extra expense of a pistol like that vs. the sub $200 MK-II I bought.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:47
Changed the thread title to clarify my question; otherwise thanks very much for the info to date.
What is the difference between the Ruger MK-II and MK-III?
John_Wayne777
10-11-09, 10:53
I just popped over to S&W's site to take a look at some of their .22 offerings, and what should I happen to see but:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/150478_large.jpg
Apparently S&W has brought back the model 17 and the model 18 in their "classic" line. Ungodly expensive, but if you're into richly blued .22 S&W revolvers....
If you're serious about a revolver I'd take a look at the auction sites searching for used S&W revolvers like the various kit guns, model 18's, etc. Model 17's or K-22's in good shape will generally command a premium. Model 18's can sometimes be had for a bargain, as can the kit guns. (Kit guns are based on the J frame, but with longer barrels)
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 10:54
Ungodly expensive, but if you're into richly blued .22 S&W revolvers....
I am not.
;)
John_Wayne777
10-11-09, 10:56
What is the difference between the Ruger MK-II and MK-III?
The MK-III has some additional "safety features" like a loaded chamber indicator.
The Ruger 22/45 might be the best option for new shooters since it mimics the controls of service pistols a bit better than the standard Ruger MK-II/MK-III.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-11-09, 11:02
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Pistol&subtype=Rimfire%20Autoloading&famlst=54
I have a High Standard and a Ruger 22/45. While the High Standard may be a better gun, I use the 22/45 a lot more. Start out a session with a 1911, work out some kinks with the 22/45 and then move back to the 1911 to finish up. Controls and grip andle laid out similarly on the 22/45 to 1911 really is a benefit, especially if you are going to teach them right and move them onto a 1911 :D
They are pretty cheap, I find the tear down and reassembly to be a bit of a pain.
I have the 41, Buckmark Bullseye-Target and the SW 6" .22, also the AA kit for the Glock 17. All great in my opinion. In my opinion, the AA kit would be best served with working with the parent gun for defense. I would do the wheel gun if that's what I had to carry.
The 41 is a Cadillac.
I wish Glock would actually make a .22 kit or a whole pistol.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 11:08
In this case I am training literal n00b shooters (possibly never touched a firearm before) so it is an introduction to the revolver and the pistol. So there is really no need for a consistent manual of arms between these .22 handguns and a larger caliber service weapon. Those decision can be moved to the future after the shooters have experienced some different options.
That said, the .22 Glock conversion is a good idea as well.
In this case I am training literal n00b shooters (possibly never touched a firearm before) so it is an introduction to the revolver and the pistol. So there is really no need for a consistent manual of arms between these .22 handguns and a larger caliber service weapon. Those decision can be moved to the future after the shooters have experienced some different options.
That said, the .22 Glock conversion is a good idea as well.
I didn't have the AA kit when my son started shooting. We had the Ruger MKI and II. When I was going to start him on the Glock, I thought the AA kit would make sense. He's 12 now and has been running the 17 for about 2 years and does great with it(full power NATO spec loads). He actually can run it better that alot of adults I know. We will still run the AA kit here and there just for fun. I like it also because the gear is the same, we use the Safariland ALS line.
I think new shooters will see a lot more benefit from a .22 revolver instead of a ruger or browning semi-auto. The short single action trigger of the MK-III doesn't really help new shooters to develop good trigger control, it can be a good confidence booster though. The biggest problem with .22 revolvers is that a quality one is about 2-3 times the cost of a MK-III. I would look at some of the lighter S&W revolvers so the shooter gets a little bit of felt recoil, and can get used to the sights coming off the target. The heavy six inch target guns barely move in recoil.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 11:23
I think new shooters will see a lot more benefit from a .22 revolver instead of a ruger or browning semi-auto. The short single action trigger of the MK-III doesn't really help new shooters to develop good trigger control, it can be a good confidence booster though. The biggest problem with .22 revolvers is that a quality one is about 2-3 times the cost of a MK-III. I would look at some of the lighter S&W revolvers so the shooter gets a little bit of felt recoil, and can get used to the sights coming off the target. The heavy six inch target guns barely move in recoil.
Possibly, but I need to teach them on both - so it's a moot point for me.
No love for the CZ Kadet? I just got the conversion kit and it's been a blast.
The DA revolver is indeed a good tool to teach trigger control because any DA brings out alot of weakness in fundementals.
I think the Advantage Arms .22 Glock is the best solution on the semiauto side given that they can get comfortable with the grip size/shape.
No matter what you choose, and probably stating the obvious here, you need to make sure it runs reliably. If you have only shot it with one kind of ammo you need to keep tons of that ammo around so that you're not running out to Walmart at the last minute to stock up on an unknown variable. Regardless of make/model, semi-auto .22s are finicky and may only like one kind of ammo. Same goes for having known good magazines.
I had great success teaching people with the Ruger Mark II. I had gobs of whatever ammo it liked (forget what that was now) and after learning the lesson the hard way I always used that ammo and known good magazines.
But, while there may not be an immediate need to have them train on a given full caliber platform, it never hurts. The only downside to the Glock .22 conversion over the MKII is the lack of a safety. On TOTAL newbs I miss having that safety for a variety of reasons. Yes, it's one more thing for them to focus on, but it was one more thnig that I liked having them focus on.
Revolvers... can't really help you there.
For the last year i've been using S/W#22a. I have several on the go, easy to maintain, an for what it;s worth, it's idiot proof very well made an dollar for dollar one of the cheaper models on the market, an accurate.:)
The S&W 41 is definitely the gold standard. But, it's also definitely overkill for almost anyone interested in handguns from a ccw/practical standpoint.
My personal favorite would be the 22/45 because it functions more or less identically to other pistols that a student is likely to buy. It's the only .22 pistol I own at the moment, in fact.
For a revolver, the Smiths are definitely the way to go. Learning to shoot both DA and SA on a good .22 revolver will set a student up for success for the rest of his life.
John_Wayne777
10-11-09, 14:27
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/160222_large.jpg
...it's all TheKatar's fault.
I wasn't even going to go to the gunshow, but I read this thread and thought..."Eh. I'll go. It's not like they'll have anything."
So what do I see but a used 617 and a 317...the first time I've seen either in my area in at least 5 years.
Dammit.
Jay Cunningham
10-11-09, 15:01
...it's all TheKatar's fault.
You have no idea how many times I hear this.
The MK-III has some additional "safety features" like a loaded chamber indicator.
The Ruger 22/45 might be the best option for new shooters since it mimics the controls of service pistols a bit better than the standard Ruger MK-II/MK-III.
big plus one!
a glock conversion might be too large for some/most. the 22.45 would be your best. that and if you stick to a ruger or buckmark you can pick an Ultimate Clip Loader, and not have to load a million mags.
plus a MK2 goes for really cheap.
Littlelebowski
10-11-09, 15:46
22/45 and/or Glock conversion.
I have the 41. If you have the spare coin it is very nice but probably more for yourself than new shooters. To me it's a bullseye gun that is just dandy for walking around your property and making difficult shots on rabbits.
I have used this Browning Buck Mark Target to expose many people to the world of handguns and just how fun it can be for over a decade.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/BuckMarkTarget.jpg
LockenLoad
10-11-09, 20:43
walther has some nice .22's not sure how much your budget is, they even have tacticool models:p
I guess I am in the minority but I think a Ruger 22 is a huge pain in the ass to clean/disassemble.
Had one, sold it, bought a NEOS.
Chris
JiMfraRED1911
10-11-09, 23:30
A good ol' Colt Woodsman Match Target.
Just my .02 cents
LockenLoad
10-12-09, 00:00
A good ol' Colt Woodsman Match Target.
Just my .02 cents
I have one an old one in good condition nice pistol
Ah, like this here?
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/160578_large.jpg
Model 617 Revolver - 6", 10-Shot
TheKatar: My Dad has one of these S&W 617's in 6" barrel, customized by Cylinder and Slide so that he can swap it out and shoot either 17 .HMR or .22 LR through it. I always thought that was a pretty neat trick; you can't find many revolvers that you can shoot .17 HMR and .22lR through the same gun! It's a beautiful gun, and a total tack driver. I hear these guns are tack drivers and have nice triggers even without custom work.
TheKatar, I've thought about this a lot, and because I personally like the 1911 platform so much, my choice in a .22 pistol for target shooting is a high quality conversion unit for a 1911. This way, I get to enjoy the outstanding trigger, the long site radius, and all the benefits of my favorite platform while shooting .22!!! The consensus high-end conversion units are ones by Marvel, or the Tactical Solutions (I recently bought one of the Tacsols).
As far as reasonable priced pistols for training new shooters, I would go with a Ruger MK II. They are as close to bombproof as you can get. The MK III has the loaded chamber indicator that has given some people function issues, but I think those are a minority because I assume Ruger is still selling lots of MK IIIs and the complaints are limited. If you don't like the Ruger, the Browning Buckmark is a distant second, IMO. For revolvers, all the S&W, Colt, and Dan Wesson 22s are nice; but expensive and more fragile than the Ruger/Brownings. You could take a chance with a Taurus. A used H&R 999 is a fun toy.
When dealing with people who have never fired a pistol (or mayby any firearm), getting them to correctly line up the sights and pull a single action trigger on an auto is challenging enough without bringing double action into the picture, so I generally start with the auto and one round in the magazine. After a couple of safe repetions of that, let them load the mag and have some fun to get them completly hooked. Once they figure out how to align the sights and hit with the single action auto, then move them on to the revolver. These observations are coming from being a range officer for four years at a college pistol club (specializing in Bullseye) and training dozens of new shooters.
I guess I am in the minority but I think a Ruger 22 is a huge pain in the ass to clean/disassemble.
Had one, sold it, bought a NEOS.
Chris
I hear this all the time on many different boards, and I don't understand the reasoning. The Ruger autos can easily be broken down into their major components, without tools, in about 15 seconds without hurrying. Assembly may take a minute. By this I'm talking about removing the receiver from the frame, taking the bolt out, removing the recoil spring, and removing the firing pin from the bolt. Everything is now exposed enough for cleaning. Instructions to accomplish this are is detailed in the manual, or search for a YouTube video.
Taking the Rugers down to the bare frame is a different enterprise, requiring patience. I've never needed to detail strip the frame, and I have 25,000 rounds through my MK II.
Ruger Target model, S&W 617.
Littlelebowski
10-12-09, 06:16
Guys, this thread isn't asking "what's your favorite high end/exotic rimfire pistol" but what's the best pistol for training shooting novices. Think practical with an eye towards commonality of controls that could make migration towards learning on a full size gun easier for the trainee.
I used to work at a shooting range on the weekends teaching people to shoot. The first handgun that I always started-out every new shooter with was a .22lr revolver.
Then, I would move to a auto-loading pistol in .22lr, before graduating to a centerfire. The Ruger Mark II was the pistol that would be typically used. There were a few other brands available but I prefered the Ruger because it is not ammo sensitive and I am very familiar with the model after owning three of them.
As for a wheel gun, the problem is that the number of quality .22lr revolvers is fairly limited. Many of the import models are not very high in quality. One exception seems to be the Taurus .22lr revolvers. I have inspected and shot several and the quality seems to be pretty good (for the money). However, the .22lr revolvers that I have primarily used in the past were the 617 and the K-22. The Ruger was available as the SP101 in .22lr but I am not certain if it is still available.
As someone already stated, the S&W is a quality .22 revolver but commands a premium. The suggestion to check the classifieds for a used one is good. I have seen two fairly recently advertised on Gunbroker and a couple of other websites. They turn up at gun shows fairly regularly as well.
I went to a Bass Outdoor World a few weeks ago and saw a 617 6" for just under $700 before DROS and tax.
In conclusion for training a new shooter/s with a .22lr I would recommend the following pistols;
REVOLVERS: Smith and Wesson, (Less expensive option, Taurus & Rossi)
PISTOLS: Ruger Mark II and III, and Browning Buck Mark.
If were going to purchase two of these type of pistols, then I would buy the S&W 617 with 4" barrel and a Ruger Mark II with the 4" or 5.5" barrel.
The 4" Bull barrel balances more like a defensive pistol for me but is not available in all of the Mark Pistol variants.
Best of Luck,
SkiDevil
P.S. If you elect to purchase a Ruger .22 pistol, then I would try to stick with the Mark II or III variant because accessories are more commonly available.
Guys, this thread isn't asking "what's your favorite high end/exotic rimfire pistol" but what's the best pistol for training shooting novices. Think practical with an eye towards commonality of controls that could make migration towards learning on a full size gun easier for the trainee.
Summary
The .22 revolver is a great tool to teach fundementals, especially trigger control. If you are carrying a wheel gun, it just makes sense to have a "little brother"
The .22 conversion kit for the parent semi is great to learn that platform and utilize identical gear.
As far as I understand, SW purposely made the .22 revolvers as a "training aid" to the bigger carry guns.
Jay Cunningham
10-12-09, 06:37
Thanks for all the great info! Now I have a (legit) excuse to buy a couple of handguns...
I ended up buying the Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit for my Glock 17 and the CZ Kadet "kit" for my CZ75.
As one poster stated earlier, it helps get the student use to the controls for a centerfire pistol that they might be shooting later.
I do not regret my decision.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-12-09, 08:13
I guess I am in the minority but I think a Ruger 22 is a huge pain in the ass to clean/disassemble.
Had one, sold it, bought a NEOS.
Chris
+1, BigTime. I just tear it down less often and use a bore snake, q-tips and liberal FP-10/CLP to keep it running. Those hand gymnastics to get it back together drove me nuts.
What I need to do is just tear it down and put it together 10 times back-to-back and then I'd grove it in my mind.
the_fallguy
10-12-09, 10:42
Just to further clarify, I am not referring to a competition target handgun. I want a semi-auto and a revolver specifically to train new shooters.
I have tried several platforms to teach new shooters, including but not limited to the S&W 22A, Beretta NEO, Phoenix Arms, S&W 422, Ruger MKII, Walther P22, Sig Mosquito, conversion kits on Glocks, 1911s and Berettas or Taurus' pistols, etc., etc...
In the end, my preference runs towards the Ruger 22/45. It has similar controls to many modern handguns so the manual of arms is transferable, and it is not nearly as picky when it comes to reliably feeding cheaper ammunition (which is often the norm when students supply their own ammo). It is also more accurate than you would expect from a reliable pistol. Couple that with a cheaper purchase price and it is a no brainer.
Where .22lr revolvers are concerned, Smith and Wesson wins the contest here. I used to prefer the 4" bbl models but since the motivation of most students these days is for CCW purposes I would recommend a snubby and the appropriate HKS .22lr speed loaders. I know many who like Taurus' .22lr revolver offerings but my advice would be to steer clear of them due to poor QC issues and an almost useless lifetime guarantee.
That's my two cents. Have fun shopping for handguns :)
I have had the best performance and feedback from Browning Buckmarks in ladies' and youth events. They report that the Buckmark has better balance, ease of operation, and ergos than others. I have not quantified those observations yet.
The Walther P22 receives good feedback from students. The early returns on the Sig Mosquito are also favorable. I have little good to say about the Neoses I've seen.
The AA kits are also excellent. Keep them wet, and use only recommended ammo. They are best received when on non-FG/R subcompact frames in my experience.
Echo the others on revolver recommendations. There is a S&W K-frame .22LR 4" variant with a nicely contoured short grip a colleague shares, but the model number escapes me. It's very popular with our folks.
+1, BigTime. I just tear it down less often and use a bore snake, q-tips and liberal FP-10/CLP to keep it running. Those hand gymnastics to get it back together drove me nuts.
What I need to do is just tear it down and put it together 10 times back-to-back and then I'd grove it in my mind.
When I had mine I shot it alot, probably once a week +/- for hundreds of rounds and I cleaned it every time. The repetition made it easy, but I've long forgotten the tricks.
I guess I am in the minority but I think a Ruger 22 is a huge pain in the ass to clean/disassemble.
Like most ruger guns.... :rolleyes:
Simple solution..... don't clean it.
I no longer clean any of my rimfire auto loaders unless they quit working. Keep a little lube in there and maybe scrape out some lead every so often.
Like most ruger guns.... :rolleyes: Simple solution..... don't clean it. I no longer clean any of my rimfire auto loaders unless they quit working. Keep a little lube in there and maybe scrape out some lead every so often.
I transitioned to Slip EWL for everything, and am getting a lot more rounds between issues in my rimfires.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-12-09, 17:14
Hmm, my 22/45 just earned a spot in the bag for the next range trip.
Alpha Sierra
10-12-09, 21:27
I am not looking for a repro gun. I want solid, .22 target handguns. It seems I am not communicating clearly, so let me rephrase:
To facilitate training new shooters, what are some of the best current choices for .22 revolvers and pistols?
The S&W Model 17 is a SUPERB target handgun. Do not let its old-school appearance deceive you.
If you want something with a shorter barrel, the Model 18 will fit the bill perfectly with its 4" tube.
The Model 18 is also scary accurate. Mastering a .22LR revolver's DA trigger will make learning to shoot any other handgun an absolute piece of cake.
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