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eternal24k
10-12-09, 14:46
I have a DW Valor which I love, but I have been having an issue while shooting, the hammer will fall funny, and i will have to re-cock the gun and it will be good to go. At first I thought it was an ammo issue (cold winter days), then it seemed like my grip was putting the slightest upward pressure on the thumb safety. It usually happened at about 1% of the time, today was a bad day (about 15%), I am not sure if it was because i was tired and it had been awhile.
Is this a training issue? do other people have this happen?
Or is this an issue with the safety, I have never had it happen with my other DW.

theJanitor
10-12-09, 15:12
what do you mean the hammer will "fall funny"?

also your grip puts upward pressure on the thumb safety? the universally accepted grip, expecially for a 1911 with an extended safety, like your Valor, is thumbs forward and riding the safety. this will also prevent you from accidentally pushing the safety up.

http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=2779

Ttwwaack
10-12-09, 15:45
I'm not familiar with the DW frame design and if it incorperates a Colt like series 80 firing pin lock ehich I have had trouble with before.

If the DW Valor has a trigger that is adjustable for overtravel, the set/adjustment screw may have moved and is clearing the the full cock ledge but not the half cock ledge. With continued use, the half cock ledge will batter the sear face causing it to occur more frequently as the sear face gets mushroomed.

Insure the weapon is clear.

Hammer down, trigger pulled to the rear, cycle the slide to cock the hammer and release the slide.

Hammer still at full cock? If yes,

Hold onto hammer with left thumb and index finger, pull the trigger keeping it to the rear and ride the hammer down and up and down. Do you feel the hammer catching on the half cock ledge?

The hammer should move freely through it's swing. If it feels like is is rubbing about at the half cock area, the overtravel screw is over ajusted and is not lifting the sear high enough to clear the half cock notch consistantly. Correct by backing out/loosening the trigger overtravel screw on the trigger. Once the sear consistantly clears the half cock ledge, give the screw another 1/3-1/2 turn to insure clearance.

See if that is the problem. IIRC, the safety will have to come up quite abit to restrict the sear movement but I'm not sure since I don't have a 1911 in front of me. Greg

ChicagoTex
10-12-09, 17:49
I'm not familiar with the DW frame design and if it incorperates a Colt like series 80 firing pin lock ehich I have had trouble with before.

It does not, DWs are classic series 70 lockwork, no series 80 FPB, no Schwartz safeties, no external extractors.

I also doubt the Valor has an adjustable trigger (I know my CBOB doesn't) but can't say for sure.

Outrider
10-12-09, 18:45
the universally accepted grip, expecially for a 1911 with an extended safety, like your Valor, is thumbs forward and riding the safety. this will also prevent you from accidentally pushing the safety up.

Riding the safety during firing is not universally accepted, it's just a technique that has come into vogue sadly like the three point sling many just had to have to show they were high speed. Riding the safety as a technique was developed to supposedly get better leverage on the pistol for handling recoil as well as to keep the a person from inadvertently activating the safety. There are problems with it.

For some people, their hands are not of a size or shape where they can ride the safety and still control the pistol. Some others have issues of their thumbs getting rubbed raw by the slide's serrations when the action cycles. And in guns with actions like the HK45, people who ride the safety tend to decock the single action of their pistol which is not what they want to do.

With 1911 pistols, the problem is that riding the safety puts continual downward pressure on the safety (something it is not designed to take) and that can lead to the second problem of breaking it. The issue comes up more with ambi-safeties than regular safeties (because with ambi-safeties they are two pieces that fit together). The technique works for some and they'll swear by it. There are even safeties made with the pad in a different position to accommodate the users of the technique. That said, it is not universally accepted.

Getting back to the original poster's issue, if he has a hammer that is falling when it shouldn't or failing to fall when it should, it is time for a professional to look at it. See if the manufacturer will cover it under the warranty.

eternal24k
10-12-09, 19:07
My Razorback has an adjustable trigger, but, the Valor does not. I do not ride on top of the safety, It seems un-natural but I am certainly willing to give it a try.
By falling funny, it seems like there was a slight delay between pulling the trigger and the hammer falling. Actually, one time today the hammer would not re-cock and I had to rack the slide.
I am going to hopefully get some more time with it, compare it with my Razorback and consider calling DW or finding a smith.

Pesty0311
10-12-09, 21:18
I've got to disagree Outrider, riding the safety is faster.. it insures the safety is off and insures I don't flick it back on accidentally when I want the gun to go bang again. I also have really small hands and have no problem reaching it.. I'm wondering what kind of grip would require your thumb to not be able to reach it. Can you elaborate? As for rubbing the thumb raw... :confused:

ChicagoTex
10-12-09, 23:15
Outrider didn't say there are people who can't REACH the safety, he said there are people who can't reach the safety AND STILL CONTROL THE PISTOL.

I personally have this problem to an extent. It's not that the pistol is uncontrollable with my thumb on the safety, but it's not AS tight or controlled as it is with me setting my thumb a little lower, this is because the cant of my thumb actually leverages my palm AWAY from the pistol and while my thumbs are fairly atypical to most, they're not at all unusual.

I absolutely agree with Outrider that riding the safety is NOT a universally accepted technique and is not ideal (or even workable) for everybody. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't - that's not a sign of poor technique, that's a sign it just doesn't work for you.

Outrider
10-13-09, 00:20
Pesty, this isn't about not being able to reach the safety. It's about one technique making it difficult for some individuals to grip the gun well. As ChicagoTex mentioned, I stated that:


For some people, their hands are not of a size or shape where they can ride the safety and still control the pistol.

Basically, some individuals find that the technique of riding the safety interferes with them getting a good grip on the gun. You have heard from ChicagoTex whose personal experience illustrates the point of why it is not "the" technique for everyone.

Regarding rubbing the thumb raw, I realize you don't understand (probably because you personally do not experience it) but when some people (individuals other than yourself) try riding the safety they find the slide serrations can rub against the thumb as the slide travels rearward and then forward. With repetition, the slide serrations can act like sandpaper on the skin. I realize you can say they are doing the technique wrong but as I tried to point out earlier, it's not for everyone.

The main reason I posted anything in this thread was because an individual claimed that riding the safety is "the universally accepted grip" and it's not. Part of shooting is having to realize that while there are some basics, individuals can have their own needs. One size does not fit all.

Dr Dues
10-13-09, 17:23
[QUOTE]The main reason I posted anything in this thread was because an individual claimed that riding the safety is "the universally accepted grip" and it's not. Part of shooting is having to realize that while there are some basics, individuals can have their own needs. One size does not fit all/QUOTE]

Someday, If you keep an open mind, and are willing to learn, you'll find out your incorrect. http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/3781082322

Outrider
10-13-09, 20:30
[QUOTE]The main reason I posted anything in this thread was because an individual claimed that riding the safety is "the universally accepted grip" and it's not. Part of shooting is having to realize that while there are some basics, individuals can have their own needs. One size does not fit all/QUOTE]

Someday, If you keep an open mind, and are willing to learn, you'll find out your incorrect. http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/3781082322

It's not a question of an open mind. I'm always willing to learn with shooting. That's why I shoot in a local league once a week that is tied to a shooting school. I get a lot out of structured practice, drills, and competition. I like seeing what new way people have for doing something or what concern has cropped up with gun handling.

I've seen both sides of the "riding the safety" argument (performance, repairs, etc.). The mere fact that you have a bunch of people on the other side of the argument eliminates the concept of universal acceptance. -LF acceptance isn't universal acceptance. It's just the loudest voices on LF carrying the day on LF. I am stunned that some people who use the technique worry about inadvertently activating the safety but that's probably because I haven't done it.

If you want to talk about open mind and correctness go to a few different shooting schools/classes and hear the instructors diverge on what you should and shouldn't do. With shooting certain techniques and gear come into vogue and then go out of vogue almost as quickly. Certain programs have a very particular point of view that they will pound and the shooters who complete the course will parrot it as gospel. -I am very hesitant to adopt the attitude that stuff like this is universally accepted or that one thing is high speed and everything else is low speed because I have seen the problems with the riding the safety technique and I have seen stuff like this fall into disuse. -Somewhere on this board there is a thread about trends in gear and tactics that illustrates the dynamic very well.

People have different points of view. You should read some of the gun gurus slamming lasers when they first came out as purely range toys and now the same people say they have some good uses. I suspect "riding the safety" is going to be one of those techniques like slingshot vs. slide release. How did that ever become an argument where one was high speed and the other wasn't?

Pesty0311
10-14-09, 12:15
I was only aware of one technique when it came to running a 1911. Thumbs forward is that technique. The people who developed it know allot more than me and put allot more time into it and rounds down range. Running it the way you doing and saying it hasn't happened to me yet is an invitation for Mr. Murphy to **** your day up. Not busting on you man just pointing out the obvious. I've got really small hands and really short thumbs the narrow wilson ambi safety is the one I use never had an issue with rubbing or placement.

As far as parts breaking being an issue that would make me not want to run the gun this way.. well I've only heard of a hand full of cases where the safety has broken, and it happened on kimbers from what I recall, its not a concern of mine at all. But hey if it works for you that's great. I would recomend some other trainers as they may be able to show you the light so to speak.

Business_Casual
10-14-09, 12:29
I would recomend some other trainers as they may be able to show you the light so to speak.

100% agree - there is a difference between "vogue" and correct technique. The Janitor posted photos of the correct grip.

M_P

John_Wayne777
10-14-09, 12:37
It's just the loudest voices on LF carrying the day on LF. I am stunned that some people who use the technique worry about inadvertently activating the safety but that's probably because I haven't done it.


Inadvertant activation of the thumb safety on the 1911 is pretty common (especially with extended safeties) when people don't keep their thumb on it. I'm surprised you've never seen it.

ChicagoTex
10-14-09, 14:28
Inadvertant activation of the thumb safety on the 1911 is pretty common (especially with extended safeties) when people don't keep their thumb on it. I'm surprised you've never seen it.

I can't speak for Outrider, but I've certainly seen it, I've just never personally experienced it. As an aside, I don't actually carry a 1911 (every other gun I've ever carried doesn't have a safety, I'm not about to throw one with into the mix, nothing against the 1911 itself). For my non-life threatening, non-competitive 1911 shooting purposes, I do better with my thumb below the thumb safety and I think I'm just gonna stick with that technique, "correct" or not.

rrpederson
10-16-09, 11:12
im too lazy to read the whole thread, but i will post anyway. if by "the hammer falls funny" u mean that it seems like it gets caught before the hammer will strike the firing pin, it could possibly be a worn leaf spring. i dont know how old you pistol is, but it recently happened to me with a colt 1991a1 that i have had for many years. sometimes parts just get old and worn out. my dad is an unofficial 1911 gunsmith, and knows more about them than most other guys i know. so i asked him what might cause this issue, and he recommended the leaf spring. as soon as i changed it, i took her to the range, and she was back to her old self. makin little groups at 25 yds. hope this helps.

richie