View Full Version : KAC SR-15 vs. BCM Middy
It's not really an apples to apples comparison. Some people get sticker shock from the KAC, but if you add up all of the high quality components on the SR15 I think that it is a good deal. KAC pretty much sets the bar for AR components, you just have to decide if the SR15 configuration really fits your needs.
All I needed was a basic BCM, but if money was no object I would definitely have a KAC in the safe. Both are very high quality firearms, by which all others should be judged. I would trust my life to either weapon.
You could also look into getting a complete BCM Middie with a URX installed as a nice middle ground.
ETA: My opinion is not completely qualified as I do not own an SR15. However, I have been very happy with the KAC products that I own and have never heard any justified criticism of anything made by KAC. You may pay a premium for KAC products, but I do not believe that you are paying for a name.
yallknowho
10-12-09, 22:37
the URX seems pretty heavy to me. does it have any advantages over other rails?
the URX seems pretty heavy to me. does it have any advantages over other rails?
The URX is one of the lightest rails out there. It's advantages are it's light weight, sleek and slim design, multiple QD sockets, and integrated front sight.
Ohh, and it's KAC :D
I believe you are paying for the name. I know that KAC makes many good products, but they have spit out more than a few lemons, see the problems with the M110 trigger, SR-25 teething, and their vfg that is about as durable as a twig. They make some very innovative products though that deserve the recognition they get. Their new Triple Tap is one example, but is it really worth all of the cash they want for it? I would get the BCM and never look back. It does everything the KAC does, but it cost a significant amount less and does not use any non-standard parts. YMMV.
Derek_Connor
10-13-09, 13:19
I believe you are paying for the name. I know that KAC makes many good products, but they have spit out more than a few lemons, see the problems with the M110 trigger, SR-25 teething, and their vfg that is about as durable as a twig. They make some very innovative products though that deserve the recognition they get. Their new Triple Tap is one example, but is it really worth all of the cash they want for it? I would get the BCM and never look back. It does everything the KAC does, but it cost a significant amount less and does not use any non-standard parts. YMMV.
How many rounds do you have through KAC products, to come to these conclusions?
How many rounds do you have through KAC products, to come to these conclusions?
Enough to form this opinion. I will caveat that with I have never used the SR-15 before. I still don't see a reason for the prices they demand for their products.
How much does a KAC SR-15 E3 upper weigh ?
Derek_Connor
10-13-09, 15:58
Enough to form this opinion. I will caveat that with I have never used the SR-15 before. I still don't see a reason for the prices they demand for their products.
How much is enough, and what type of setting?
Trying to put your comments in context.
Enough to form this opinion. I will caveat that with I have never used the SR-15 before. I still don't see a reason for the prices they demand for their products.
If you add up the components and take into consideration the expected lifespan of the barrel & bolt, the SR15 is not a bad value at all. I don't understand why people get worked up over the SR15 E3 price, but will pay just as much for a Noveske or LWRCi rifle without blinking. I own 2 E3's btw.
its not necessary for my to put 75,000 miles on a yugo to know they're pieces of shit..
KAC is NOT "piece of shit"- they do, in fact, make some really good shit. however, having read/heard a hundred love stories, i've never heard any actual reasons why they're superior. having put some miles on a couple KACs myself, i cannot see how they justify the extra THOUSAND big ones for a complete rifle over any other fightin' gun. i fully acknowledge i might be missing something... so here's the place to educate me/everyone. the URX is a nice piece of equipment, and i really love the kriple kap- but i'm not rich enough to put out $400+ for either. DD/Larue and vortex will just have to remain my "poor man's" options, till i land some multi-million dollar government contract or win the lottery.
they don't even HPT- III says it's because HPT is too destructive and not beneficial. that goes against the grain of all expert opinion around here, yet it's never brought up. for instance.
BCM, on the other hand, does everything TDP and is CHEAP compared to other weapons that are LESS TDP compliant. I'd take a BCM over a KAC any day, personally (unless i'm not paying for it- then i'll take the KAC, sell it, buy a BCM and ammo for a month).
not taking a poop on KAC, just sharing my thoughts. so chillax.
Derek_Connor
10-13-09, 18:18
Just looking for some relevant, first hand experience, thats all. Too much to ask?
We have multiple shooters that have fired production guns to 20,000 rounds. I know exactly what these guns will do at this point. I would feel very comfortable doing a comparison shoot against any rifle on the market to a heavy firing schedule. As I feel the barrel is the main large component to wear out we have strived to make all of the components in the SR-15 good to this point. If you are going to add the features of a SR-15 to a more standard rifle and have the money up front I think the SR-15 is a good choice. If you are going to run your rifle hard and don't want to be concerned about when to replace extractor springs or bolts then the SR-15 is a great choice. We will soon be offering complete uppers and lowers for customers that can't swallow the price of a SR-15 all at once or don't need all the features .
Add up the price of the hammer forged barrel, URX, rail covers, low profile gas block, ambi selector, ambi bolt lock, ambi mah release, 2 stage trigger, qd slng swivel sockets, BUIS, flash suppressor, LMT stock, and E3 bolt and barrel extension and you will see why it costs what it costs. If you can do without those features or only want a couple of them, don't get the SR15E3.
Dustin
I love the dual springs on the on KAC proprietary bolts. But honestly, the BCM would hold up just as well as the KAC. KAC just has alot more bells and whistles for those hardcore super secret ninja operators
Heavy Metal
10-13-09, 20:07
We have multiple shooters that have fired production guns to 20,000 rounds. I know exactly what these guns will do at this point. I would feel very comfortable doing a comparison shoot against any rifle on the market to a heavy firing schedule. As I feel the barrel is the main large component to wear out we have strived to make all of the components in the SR-15 good to this point. If you are going to add the features of a SR-15 to a more standard rifle and have the money up front I think the SR-15 is a good choice. If you are going to run your rifle hard and don't want to be concerned about when to replace extractor springs or bolts then the SR-15 is a great choice. We will soon be offering complete uppers and lowers for customers that can't swallow the price of a SR-15 all at once or don't need all the features .
That sounds like good news.
Al U. 5811
10-13-09, 20:21
I recently purchased a KAC E3 upper. I did my homework and comparing the KAC E3 and a BCM middy built to near spec this is what I came up with:
BCM BFH 16" Middy upper w/ KAC URXII - $1237
BCM BCG - $ 149.95
BCM Charging handle - $ 23.95
That comes to - $ 1410.90 before you add a BUIS. If you add the Magpul BUS for another $55. You are sitting at $1466 before shipping.
I can assure you I did not pay much more than that for the KAC upper to my door. Both companies make an outstanding product. BCM absolutely takes no back seat to KAC, in fact they seem to work well together not as rivals.
The arguement of having to overpay for the KAC product just doesn't hold any water. If you can supply yourself with a months worth of training ammo for the difference in price between the KAC and BCM set up simular, perhaps you need a math lesson or you just don't shoot that much.
You are certainly not going to hear any negative statements about BCM from me. I have always said if you don't need or want the extra features of a KAC rifle we are not the best choice. I would say that for customers concerned about resale value we are an excellent choice. I feel that getting more KAC rifles out on the market might negatively effect this. There are things I would still like to do to the SR-15 that would drive the price even higher. We tried to bring the best possible rifle to market at the best price possible.
I have no need for the ambi stuff, so if there was a "stripped" version, perhaps even with standard handguards, I'd be quite interested. At the current price point, other options with hammer forged barrels are much more attractive to me.
I also don't like the URX rail being non user serviceable. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, you do need an expensive barrel nut wrench and receiver vice to remove and install the URX handguard. However, there really is no need to. If you change the barrel on your rifle, you will have to change the bolt as well since only certain KAC barrels have the barrel extension. If you don't want the mid length 16" barrel in the first place, the rifle either isn't for you or you can sell the complete upper and recoup your investment.
Dustin
Getting a SR-15 upper and pulling the URX off to sell might be an option for you. We are working to make the URX install disassembly tool more avail and priced for volume sale. I think once you had the SR-15 upper you might learn to like the URX. Knowing you will have the option to purchase the tool might give you that comfort factor you are looking for. The real solution is a factory bbl/bolt replacement program which will solve the real problem of how to service a SR-15 when the bbl needs to be replaced. Most shooters will ever even achieve that point. Remember with an average ammo price of .30 a round that is $6000 worth of ammo . Three times the price of the rifle.
Yes, you do need an expensive barrel nut wrench and receiver vice to remove and install the URX handguard. However, there really is no need to. If you change the barrel on your rifle, you will have to change the bolt as well since only certain KAC barrels have the barrel extension. If you don't want the mid length 16" barrel in the first place, the rifle either isn't for you or you can sell the complete upper and recoup your investment.
Dustin
I guess I could leave it alone, but I have rifle ADD and am always changing stuff. ;)
Getting a SR-15 upper and pulling the URX off to sell might be an option for you. We are working to make the URX install disassembly tool more avail and priced for volume sale. I think once you had the SR-15 upper you might learn to like the URX. Knowing you will have the option to purchase the tool might give you that comfort factor you are looking for. The real solution is a factory bbl/bolt replacement program which will solve the real problem of how to service a SR-15 when the bbl needs to be replaced. Most shooters will ever even achieve that point. Remember with an average ammo price of .30 a round that is $6000 worth of ammo . Three times the price of the rifle.
Maybe. I think that if I were to redeploy and have the option of a personally owned upper (like the first time around) I might grab an SR-15 upper. Barring that, its capabilities aren't worth the added cost for my current needs.
I've got both rifles and they are hard to compare really. The BCM line is much closer to the TDP than the KAC rifle is but the KAC rifle goes beyond the standard spec by a pretty wide margin.
The KAC rifle is very nice. The list of parts on it is very impressive with the following:
2 Stage KAC trigger
URX (with a built in BUIS, multiple sling attachment points)
600 M rear BUIS
SOPMOD stock
KAC trigger guard
Lo Pro gas block
Ambi-lower (I'm still not 100% decided on this - it is nice but it is not the standard - you end up learning different techniques with it)
3x KAC panels
KAC barrel
E3 bolt and extension
In my opinion - probably not worth a lot - the KAC is probably one of the most tricked out factory produced guns out there. The pistol grip is about the only standard piece of equipment on the thing.
So far accuracy has been good from it. Not to the level of a gun set up specifically for accuracy but is well above average. It also has a great feel to it - it is light weight and balances well.
The BCM gun is a great opinion closer to "the standard" AR - no real bells and whistles just a plain great shooting rifle. There is nothing wrong with the rifle and if you wanted to set it up similar to the KAC E3 it could be done but would take time, money and extra effort.
I'd love to see a factory KAC SBR with the folding FSB, 10.5 to 12.5" barrel - medium contour with dimples, carbine URX and non-ambi lower.
Spooky
So far accuracy has been good from it. Not to the level of a gun set up specifically for accuracy but is well above average. It also has a great feel to it - it is light weight and balances well.
I completely agree with this statement. I've owned my SR-15 for coming on 5 months now, and have already put about 5000 rounds through it, 2000 during a magpul class where the gun didn't skip a beat. In fact in all the time I've had the gun it's only double fed once, and that was from a friend's crappy reloaded ammo.
The gun is a tack driver, but what really surprised me was how light it was, it almost felt like a toy the first time I picked it up. Meaning that it just felt fake somehow, it's that light. It's also an extremely durable, streamlined, upper, and removing the URXII would (IMHO) be a disservice to how well thought out the rifle is now.
I'm almost certain I'll never submit the gun to the punishment that would take the gun to the limits of its tolerances, but it's nice to know I have those capabilities in the rifle.
Al U. 5811
10-14-09, 00:22
The only things that suprised me in a not-so-good way was the GB was set screwed instead of pinned and my barrel didn't have much of a muzzle crown at all. I'll reserve judgement until I can get it out to the range and see how the gun does on paper.
parishioner
10-14-09, 00:57
The URX is one of the lightest rails out there. It's advantages are it's light weight, sleek and slim design, multiple QD sockets, and integrated front sight.
Ohh, and it's KAC :D
According to rob_s' chart on rails, the URX is one of the heavier rails. The midlength URX is about 2.5 ounces heavier than a comparable Larue and the rifle length URX is 6 ounces heavier than a DD Lite rifle length.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsFnUZMkZNF2DQ&output=html
According to rob_s' chart on rails, the URX is one of the heavier rails. The midlength URX is about 2.5 ounces heavier than a comparable Larue and the rifle length URX is 6 ounces heavier than a DD Lite rifle length.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsFnUZMkZNF2DQ&output=html
Those are the weights of the old URX's without the integrated front sight, and those weights included 3 KAC 11-rib panels.
The weights of the new URX's are 13.448 oz. for the mid-length and 16.4 for the rifle length. That includes the integrated front sight.
The Larue 12" and the DD Lite 12" weigh in at 16.3 oz. and 14.0 oz. respectively. Add a 1.5 oz. Troy front sight to both of those and the Larue is now heavier than the URX, with the DD Lite weighing 0.9 oz. lighter than the URX.
This is why I said the URX is one of the lightest.
Some of you may know that I wrote an article for SWAT last year on the KAC SR15 pre-production gun that Trey was nice enough to send me (yes, I eventually had to send it back). AFAIK the only effective difference between that gun and the production guns is the Ambi lower.
First, I think most people would be surprised by the weight. I have a Colt 6520 ("pencil" barrel) that I've converted to a flattop, added a DD rail (which is one of the lightest you can buy), a set of Troys, etc. Here they are similarly configured.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2013e800.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2014e800.jpg
Second, there are things that set the KAC apart that many people are not aware of. The longer-than-midlength gas system, E3 bolt and barrel extension, the dual spring extractor, and the hammer forged barrels are probably the best of the sometimes overlooked features. These are all designed to increase the life of the firearm, and when you price something you need to price it as a life-cycle if you actually intend to use it.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2061Medium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/boltfaces800.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/chambers800.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_1974e800.jpg
Finally, when pricing these things you need to make sure you're comparing apples:apples. You need to start with a BCM BFH 16" w/ DD Lite 12.0 at $949 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl12.htm) (note that BCM does sell their uppers with the KAC URX but it's $300 more (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-KAC-p/bcm-urg-16%20bfh%20urx%2047.htm). From there you need to add a BCM BCG for $150 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm), a charging handle for $20+/-, and a set of MBUS (since we're going on the cheap) for $100. That gets you to $1220 for a complete upper.
Moving to the lower, you're going to start with a BCM at $330 without stock (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM), add an Emod for $120 (going for that "same function, reduced cost, the SOPMOD is another $80), and a Geissele AR15 Super Semi-Automatic Trigger for $170 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Geissele-AR15-Super-Semi-Automatic-Trigger-p/geissele%20ssa%20trigger%20spin.htm). That brings you to $620 for the complete lower and up to $1840 for the complete gun. Bearing in mind that you still aren't getting the E3 features.
I found a KAC SR15 listed on Gunsamerica for $2200, which is a $350 premium over the package above. What you're getting for that premium is the E3 bolt features, the ambi lower controls, and what is probably a lighter package overall. Put a set of Troy BUIS and the SOPMOD stock on the BCM and you narrow that gap even more.
Yes, you can assemble the BCM piece by piece and buy the parts as the money comes available. It also can be ordered in one of 20 different flavors, of you can install other rails like the TRX extreme or others according to your tastes and needs.
The other thing that the BCM has going for it, in my recently found appreciation for non-railed guns, is that it can be had in a more basic configuration with plastic handguards, etc. and can be had in the non-hammer forged variety, if you don't need that functionality, for a lower cost.
I don't think you can go wrong with either option. If you can make use of the rail system, light weight, E3, and ambi features of the KAC then it is probably worth the premium. If not, it's probably a better value to buy the BCM and configure it the way you want it.
I think Rob pretty much summed it up.
On the gas block: Our bbls are ground and gas blocks honed for a press fit. You will not find a better fitting gas block in the industry. They will not just come off even with the screws removed. Also this aids in sealing the gas system.
On accuracy: The chrome chamber is what really effects this . I have seen most of these rifles to shoot under 1.5".Some shoot well under an 1". We are not pushing this as a match grade rifle and are building this gun to be ran hard.
On price: Retail is 2200. I have seen them go for 2000 and under as the market cools.
On weight: The SOPMOD stock is pretty heavy bare gun against bare gun I think we have a really good mixture of balance , durability, and lt wt.
I'm sure the next question will be why don't you stake the buffer tube. We chose to loctite the buffer tube instead.
My next AR will be a FDE SR-15E3 to compliment my black one.
militarymoron
10-14-09, 09:07
We chose to loctite the buffer tube instead.
LOL - i found this out last week when i was switching out the tube on my older SR-15 lower. i was thinking to myself 'geez - this thing's hard to turn!' :)
I've owned one SR-25 and three SR-15s. You really need to shoot them in order to appreciate the differences. Think of them as Lexus (vs. Toyota).
Al U. 5811
10-14-09, 11:03
I guess I'd be comfortable with the set screws in the GB then, but the lack of any crown on my barrel has me a bit worried.
Shoot it and let us know.
a bit off topic but i run a BCM middy with a larue LP gas block. I was wondering if there is a gas block out there that will lessen the amount of gas that travels back into the rifle. Im running a bcm CHF middy with a BCM BCG and H buffer AND KAC triple tap brake and i still cant get it to feel like my buddy's (retreathell) sr15, who is also running a triple tap.
odd.. what else is different about your weapons?
I put a magazine through Titleist's kriple-kapped KAC about a month ago, and i must admit muzzle rise was literally non-existent. there's definately something special about the SR15s.. i'm just not at the financial point in my life where it's worth it for me.. or even close.
If KAC offered the Triple Tap in another material, besides inconel, and dropped the price to a little over $100 you guys would be making money hand over fist. I know that I would pick one up as would most of my friends.
odd.. what else is different about your weapons?
I put a magazine through Titleist's kriple-kapped KAC about a month ago, and i must admit muzzle rise was literally non-existent. there's definately something special about the SR15s.. i'm just not at the financial point in my life where it's worth it for me.. or even close.
bkb, just to point out, that was my 11.5 SBR. Which Grant put together (ironically enough BCM upper and BCM barrel), but you didn't shoot my SR-15. Though that gun has ZERO muzzle climb as well.
If KAC offered the Triple Tap in another material, besides inconel, and dropped the price to a little over $100 you guys would be making money hand over fist. I know that I would pick one up as would most of my friends.
me three- but i guess it's a bit of an engineering problem, though.. the thing requires really strong metal, and apparently regular ol' steel won't cut it.
bkb, just to point out, that was my 11.5 SBR. Which Grant put together (ironically enough BCM upper and BCM barrel), but you didn't shoot my SR-15. Though that gun has ZERO muzzle climb as well.
apparently i was paying attention... i guess that was when homeboy was standing there tapping his foot at us, in my defense.
big credit to Grant, then- that ****er shot smooth
apparently i was paying attention... i guess that was when homeboy was standing there tapping his foot at us, in my defense.
big credit to Grant, then- that ****er shot smooth
And it shoots straight too, better than I can.
The SR-15 has a smoother impulse, but that's all real esoteric once you get in to how it feels. I'll let you try the SR-15 next time we meet up.
FYI
According to KevinB the Midlength URX II weighs 13.448 OZ including the gen 2 barrel nut. Keep in mind this includes QD sockets and a front sight.
I've had my SR15 e3 for a few weeks and overall am very happy with it. As for accuracy, it delivered 1.25 inch groups at 100 yards with federal 69gr loads. Recoil pulse seems smoother than our standard issue carbines. Everyone on my dept loves it but few will spend the extra money (mine was a gift from the wife):).
Al U. 5811
10-20-09, 21:32
I got out and zeroed my gun on Monday. No pix to post as I shot with irons and "groups" were nothing to brag about. I didn't mount an RDS yet, I'm waiting to get a T-1 on this gun. Usually for me to shoot 2 - 1.5 inches is norm. My gun did that as long as I did my part. I put a little over 250 rounds through it to get the round count started and it ran well with quality brass ammo. I ran 60 rds of Fed SP frang, 60 rds of Fed training frang, and 40 rds of Win 55 grn FMJ. All worked w/o a hiccup.
I put another 100 rds of Wolf 55 grn FMJ that it didn't like. I had failure to feeds using three different types of mags, USGI w/Magpul follower, PMag, and Fusil. It gave me a chance to live fire practice IA drills:) I guess Wolf isn't going to run in this gun. That's OK as I don't have much of it left and my Noveske's eat it just fine.
All in all I'm happy with the E3 upper and Triple Tap combo. Now I need to get it on a dedicated lower. The lower I used to test it was a LMT w/2 stage. It's the only 2 stage that I have for a reason. I'm not real fond of anything other than a standard trigger.
yallknowho
10-20-09, 21:53
Those are the weights of the old URX's without the integrated front sight, and those weights included 3 KAC 11-rib panels.
The weights of the new URX's are 13.448 oz. for the mid-length and 16.4 for the rifle length. That includes the integrated front sight.
The Larue 12" and the DD Lite 12" weigh in at 16.3 oz. and 14.0 oz. respectively. Add a 1.5 oz. Troy front sight to both of those and the Larue is now heavier than the URX, with the DD Lite weighing 0.9 oz. lighter than the URX.
This is why I said the URX is one of the lightest.
cool. I was going by the chart which indicated 20 oz as well.
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