View Full Version : .380 FMJ - the way to go??
(She) decided the Walther PPK/S was the way to go; has owned one perviously and is familiar with it (+1 bonus point). What I currently ascertain from the posts is the FMJ is considerably more likely to penetrate..."adequately"...and cause leaks. Thoughts??
Take a look at Hordnadys Critical Defense. Best of both worlds. Little expensive and somewhat hard to find, but it feeds and functions perfectly in my P3AT
Business_Casual
10-13-09, 15:30
Were you able to find information in the Terminal Ballistics Forum?
M_P
Dave James
10-13-09, 17:43
"D" this just popped up a week or so ago,, general thought is its better than nothing but like size 9mm are out there, Doc R corrected me on ammo he thinks the FMJ load is the way to go in 380.
I don't like the S&W version, its just me I'm sure, they do take awhile to smooth out unless you send it to some one that knows how to work on them, size wise and in 380 I prefer the SIG 230/232 light weight model.
I carry the Winchester SXT 95gr Hollow point in my Sig 230.feeds good I fired it into 2 phonebooks it went through one and ended up in the second ,but did not expand much at all
here a couple pics sorry they are Blurry crappy camera
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/006.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/005-2.jpg
I would shy away from FMJ and look at one of the JHP offerings from Cor Bon.
YMMV
There are many reasons people who carry guns for a living use hollow point ammunition, mainly in part due to the better expansion which leads to more tissue damage. Please if this gun will be used at any time for self defense use a quality hollow point ammo. Just make sure you test the ammo in the gun before relying on it.
There are many good manufacturers of self defense ammo. I personally rely on Speer Gold Dot, but Hornaday, Winchester, Cor Bon among others make good ammo. Maybe consider a bonded round so there is no jacket seperation.
Beat Trash
10-14-09, 18:34
IF I were carrying a 380, I'd go with a FMJ loading only to ensure I got adequate penetration.
Corbon DPX is what I would use (in any caliber).
http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/dpx.htm
Tennvol12345
10-14-09, 21:42
DPX all the way
The guys advocating JHPs in the .380 need to do more reading, seriously.
6-7" of penetration is really inadequate. I include DPX in this group.
Ball in this caliber almost always gets deep enough. The Gold Dot and XTP from a P3AT gets about 11-11 1/2" in my testing, which is barely adequate under my personal criteria for these weapons and their mission profile.
gentlemen i've seen a number of people shot with the .380. i'm not impressed with the caliber at all. almost all of the ammo used was 95 gr. ball , a large percent of these people were crime victims so when hit in the torrso thet usually hit the deck and offered no more resistence to the shooter. on the other end of the fence i've seen the round used by good guys, time and time again the shootee would take multiple rounds and still be quite capable of fighting or shooting. only when shot in the head did the .380 prove pretty reliable. i'm not trying to start a war just stating what of seen over the past 25 yrs.. on another note if the .380 works for you then fine, make sure your weapon is reliable with your choosen ammo, carry ball, and carry at least one reload.
NCPatrolAR
10-15-09, 11:32
Posted by Gary Roberts in the Terminal Ballsitics forum
Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not acceptable for law enforcement use and most savvy agencies prohibit them.
Ballastics Forum - Here (http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91)
Wayne Dobbs
10-16-09, 10:48
As previously expressed by Detmongo, as a general rule, the .380 works pretty good on the good guys and really poorly on evil folks in need of shooting. JHP loads, if expanded well, don't penetrate far enough and if they penetrate well, don't expand. I think that's called the worst of both worlds.
This may piss some folks off, but I've not seen a Walther PPK/S that will run for 100 rounds of any ammo without a malfunction of some sort. That's completely unacceptable reliability for a defense pistol. This is based on seeing a couple of dozen examples that my cops tried to carry over the years for off-duty and/or back up guns. In addition, they have enough sharp edges to skin a rabbit and really cut up hands in serious practice and training. To make things even more fun, the use of standard techniques to clear malfunctions don't work reliably due to the lack of a slide stop and the short slide travel distance.
In summary, you can't overcome the laws of physics with the ammo and the gun is not really something to bet your life on, James Bond nothwithstanding.
John_Wayne777
10-16-09, 11:51
The guys advocating JHPs in the .380 need to do more reading, seriously.
6-7" of penetration is really inadequate. I include DPX in this group.
Ball in this caliber almost always gets deep enough. The Gold Dot and XTP from a P3AT gets about 11-11 1/2" in my testing, which is barely adequate under my personal criteria for these weapons and their mission profile.
Here's my issue with FMJ ammo: It's usually not all that good. We know that self defense loads get better quality materials in production and are subject to higher quality control than bulk FMJ ammo. I've experienced so many duds and even rounds that were completely missing a primer I wouldn't really want to trust most of the FMJ ammo out there as my carry load.
We're probably talking about tiny slivers of percentages here either way and as such it's probably the equivalent to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...but I'm inclined to go with the better quality ammo.
I'm 100% with you in the "barely adequate" classification of .380 in general. My LCP is never carried as my primary for precisely that reason. I call it a "Rule 1 gun"...meaning that it barely fulfills rule 1 of a gunfight: Have a gun. That's about it. Better than fingernails but not something I would ever choose if I knew a fight was coming.
If I have to use it, however, I'd rather have barely adequate that is more likely to go bang. If you happen to know of a source of ball that is produced to the quality standard we're accustomed to in duty/carry ammo I'm certainly interested. :D
Wayne Dobbs
10-16-09, 13:34
JW777,
Copy on the diminished quality of the FMJ ammo out there today. This hysteria buying has created a terrible situation for the quality of ammo. I encountered eight dud rounds in a thousand WWB 9mm rounds last year at a Paul Howe class. Some fired on the second try, but about five didn't and that was with a stock Glock 17 and stock striker springs.
I'm afraid we're going to see that duty ammo is trending in the same direction soon.
dirksterg30
10-16-09, 15:09
If you happen to know of a source of ball that is produced to the quality standard we're accustomed to in duty/carry ammo I'm certainly interested. :D
Black Hills is making a Red Box .380ACP FMJ load now. If I can get some I'm going to give it a try.
I have never wanted or owned a .380 before I picked up a Sig P238 at my local gun shop. I now carry one as a second gun in a Desantis Nemesis. It is loaded up with Buffalo Bore 100 gr. hard cast, flat nose ammo. I am a penetration over expansion believer with the .380. Hoping to see some ballistics test results on the Buffalo Bore ammo.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127
When I owned .32 and .380s I often used European ammo, such as Geco, as they actually have a history of serious carry and use for these calibers.
I can still recall seeing the Polizei carrying Walther PPs when I was a kid.
Especially in my P32 the Euro rounds were much more reliable.
I think the Buffalo Bore ammo has merit. If we are shooting relatively small bullets (say a .44mag or .454) at relatively large dangerous targets (say a bear or moose) we wisely choose a bullet that Elmer Keith would approve of, one that maximizes penetration on that target, something like the WFN ammo, or the Federal Castcore.
We know that bullets such as a 180gr JHP would be a very poor choice of bullet weight and construction for loading in to one's model 29 when hunting game this large, and by large I mean relative to the bullet used.
If we loaded up a 37mm anti-tank gun with a soft swaged lead hollow point round I'm pretty sure it would work just fine on bear and moose.
Now if we are shooting different relatively small bullets (.380s) at different relativity large dangerous targets (bad guys), the same choice in bullets would seem to be a good idea.
Doc Roberts reports that Buffalo Bore QC seems to be pretty good, and I have had no issues in the limited amount of their ammo I have fired so far.
For me, I think the .32s and .380 rightly (now a days) fill the "hide-out gun" role, and are a great replacement to the many mini-revolvers and Beretta .22s/.25s used in this role over the years.
SELFDEFENSE
10-17-09, 22:48
I use the above-noted Buffalo Bore 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.) in my PPK BUG.
Just to throw a fly in the ointment..What about a 9mm Makarov? more juice than a .380 less than a 9mm. Makarov pistols are usually accurate, reliable, and East German models usually have excellant triggers in either mode..
John_Wayne777
10-18-09, 11:22
Just to throw a fly in the ointment..What about a 9mm Makarov? more juice than a .380 less than a 9mm. Makarov pistols are usually accurate, reliable, and East German models usually have excellant triggers in either mode..
...and they are generally heavy. I own a Makarov and a CZ-82, but neither are anywhere near the size and concealability of the Ruger LCP. The Ruger and the Kel-Tecs have breathed new life into the mousegun calibers simply because of their size and weight. You can successfully conceal an LCP in a speedo. That's attracted a lot of people to them.
Ultimately most who are buying a handgun for concealed carry want something that's convenient to carry. They are fulfilling rule 1...but just barely. The idea of carrying a 2.5 pound 1911 is unfathomable to them.
A minister friend of mine was one of those guys for a while...but recently he started looking at his little LCP (the first handgun he had ever carried) and at how he shot with it. "It's tiny, not very powerful, and I can't hit much with it. I was thinking that if I ever really needed to save my life there's no way I would actually select this for the job if I had the chance to consider it beforehand."
Eureka!
So now he carries my (now his) Glock 26 loaded with Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P ammo in a Raven Concealment Phantom (also used to be mine) and he's thoroughly pleased. He never knew much about guns but after experiencing an uncomfortable situation he was looking to get a pistol for concealed carry. (An idea he got from being around me) He asked the most knowledgable people he knew in his area...namely the guys at the gun shop...what he should get, and everybody raved about the LCP. Other minister friends raved about the LCP. They all told him it was impossible to comfortably conceal anything bigger on a daily basis.
Thankfully he had enough mental horsepower to realize the LCP's limitations and seek help from somebody who might know more. He now realizes that with the right equipment he can have a reasonable defensive tool on his person 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
While the 9x18 mak is a bit more powerful than a .380, most of the guns out there are going to be in the size and weight range of a G26...and people would be vastly better off with a G26.
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