View Full Version : Gear design failure as related to complex designs
Iraq Ninja
10-14-09, 14:36
The tactical gear revolution has resulted in some very innovative kit, and some very irritating kit. Irritating not because of quality, but complexity. These are items designed with the best intentions, yet are not the best choice for military or tactical use.
Today we cleaned weapons and I had the following thoughts...
I Love and Hate the Otis cleaning kit. I love the concept, but I hate loosing parts, be it in my room, the back seat of my vehicle, or in the dark. I tried it, lost it, and returned to my bore snake and military tooth brush. The Otis All Caliber patch is another great idea, but it drives me crazy. I don't need a patch that requires a manual to use. I can't remember how to thread the silly thing correctly, and seen other people jam them in their M4s.
Some of my other pet peeves...
I dislike slings that are so complex that they wrap around everything well, except your body. They do the "tactical tangle" on your weapon and get in the way at the worse of times.
I hate having to worrying about torque when I don't have a torque wrench.
The more screws something has, the more likelihood that you will be screwed.
Nylon is not always the answer to everything, especially around fire and heat.
I dislike "spaghetti" pouches that have too many cords, elastic bands, or way too much Velcro.
I dislike designers who think my thighs are great places to hang lots of gear on.
Anyone have any experiences or observations worth sharing?
Failure2Stop
10-14-09, 16:51
Aside from the ones you already listed, except that I only use my Otis kit in the rear or at home-
I hate frag pouches with the buckles placed upside down that makes getting a frag out difficult and slow under the stress that only comes when you need a frag. This is why I greatly prefer the TAG frag pouch.
I hate magnets put into my gear. I still need to use a compass, and the two do not mix well.
I hate mag pouches that cover 90% of the mag you stuff into them, forcing you to pull them out with just the thumb and index finger.
I hate that admin panels that have a light/multitool pouch always have the pouch on the left side. Maybe I want to do something else other than stick it in the middle of my chest.
I hate gear designers that don't understand MOLLE/PALS and fail to have the pouch straps engage the lower rows of PALS behind the pouch on the vest, which allows the pouch to catch on stuff and have enough leverage to be a PITA. I wish everybody used the Paraclete or TAG style of pouch strap securing. I would happily pay $2 in royalties on every pouch just so I would never have to see another snap again.
I hate the buckles on the Arcteryx knee pads. Such great pads but with such stupid buckles that catch and open, with floppy running ends. Damnit. I also hate that trousers aren't made kneepad friendly, which lets the kneepads migrate around and fabric between the kneepad and the knee to bunch up and crease, which sucks when you actually need to move around with the things on.
I hate finger-tip blow-out on gloves. I don't have a solution, but I would be a much happier camper if I could get a pair of gloves to last for longer than two months that didn't cost $100.
I hate that well-advertised companies outsource labor to third-world countries that deliver stitching and thread quality that won't withstand a hard stare, let alone a 12 month deployment to Asscrackistan.
I hate single-cell 3-mag pouches, unless I develop some need to have a bipod mounted torso.
I hate buckles and such inside my armor. At least make them removable, please.
I hate "slings" that are nothing but a short strap and a clip to attach the gun directly to the firing side shoulder. There are so many problems with this I want to slap any professional soldier in the face for being so lazy as to attach one to his armor. I don't care if it makes it easy to meander around the FOB, it needs to be combat effective.
I hate belt/vest layout that is cut in the wrong places, limiting placement of items.
I hate the corners and edges that are on most pouches. They constantly get caught, turning them out, which then rub or overlap each other.
I hate double or triple cell mag pouches that take up as much room as two or three single cell pouches. They are always floppier and restrict fine placement. There are 3-cell pouches that only take up 5 columns, which allows you to use that last column to get something useful in that space, like a tourniquet. I don't hate them because they dick up my loadout (because I don't bother buying them unless for a specific purpose) but because junior guys buy them because they are $10 cheaper than buying three single cell pouches and can't put them anywhere except on their very front. Pretty much the only exception to this is the BFG 10-speed because it is so unobtrusive unless you need it, and even then I would prefer to have the option of single and double cell arraingements.
I hate armor that doesn't take into account the fact that the people wearing it will actually need to be able to shoot a rifle with it on.
I hate cheap velcro on stuff that is frequently opened. The loop gets too fuzzy and loses it's adhesion.
I hate pistol lanyards that are loose at the gun/grip junction as they cause fouled draws and reloads, and if I am pulling my pistol it is a bad enough day already, and if I have to reload from slide-lock it is a supremely bad day and I just don't need anything else making my life harder at that moment.
I hate light pouches that lack any feature to prevent the light from getting bumped and burning a hole in the bottom of the pouch.
I absloutely despise knock-off gear.
I hate flaps on my issued pouches that are so long they get in the way of drawing the mag!
...and...Amen to all the above....I need a Tylenol!!!
Iraq Ninja
10-14-09, 22:47
Why can't clothing designers take into consideration people wanting to roll up their sleeves? For instance, on the Crye multicam shirt, having the inside printed in the pattern would help prevent the "two white aiming rings" syndrome as seen below:
http://images.military.com/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Type&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadervalue2=inline%3Bfilename%3DMK-48_02LARGE.jpg&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1209982442361&ssbinary=true
Why can't clothing designers take into consideration people wanting to roll up their sleeves? For instance, on the Crye multicam shirt, having the inside printed in the pattern would help prevent the "two white aiming rings" syndrome as seen below:
http://images.military.com/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Type&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadervalue2=inline%3Bfilename%3DMK-48_02LARGE.jpg&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1209982442361&ssbinary=true
indeed- and the really irritating part is that none of my non-BDU shirts do that... all my plaid/striped/etc civvi shirts are colored all the way through. they should dye the camo, rather than paint it. or whatever the hell they do. make the base fabric darker, if nothing else.
militarymoron
10-15-09, 09:19
indeed- and the really irritating part is that none of my non-BDU shirts do that... all my plaid/striped/etc civvi shirts are colored all the way through. they should dye the camo, rather than paint it. or whatever the hell they do. make the base fabric darker, if nothing else.
the camo pattern is dyed. the base fabric is usually the lightest colour in the pattern out of necessity, as it is very difficult to dye light colours into dark fabric.
plaid/striped fabric is woven (the threads themselves are different colours), since the pattern is usually a grid based on straight lines, while a camo pattern is not.
but, i definitely see your point. the best solution would probably be to dye both sides of the fabric and use that for the sleeves. it's all a matter of cost, though.
Iraq Ninja
10-15-09, 09:45
I hate companies that build kydex gear with screws and dont locktite from the factory or include it to start, that shit will fall apart if you dont locktite it.
DOC
Funny you mention this. Today, I picked up my rig and heard a clank sound. It was a screw out of my Eagle Industries kydex holster. The bolt was long gone. It was one of their G Code holsters, and it fell off the claw portion that attaches to the vest. I had assumed they were locktited to begin with.
MM,
I got a suggestion for your Endom weapon cleaning mat. I used to use it in my go bag, but it takes up a bit too much space. I think 1000D is over kill for it. Have you thought of using 500D to make a lighter version?
Why can't clothing designers take into consideration people wanting to roll up their sleeves? For instance, on the Crye multicam shirt, having the inside printed in the pattern would help prevent the "two white aiming rings" syndrome as seen below:
http://images.military.com/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Type&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadervalue2=inline%3Bfilename%3DMK-48_02LARGE.jpg&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1209982442361&ssbinary=true
Why not roll your sleeve "in"? It only takes a few seconds longer and you'd definately be rolling your sleeves up when you have the time to do so, and it won't leave the white aiming rings out there.
militarymoron
10-15-09, 10:14
MM,
I got a suggestion for your Endom weapon cleaning mat. I used to use it in my go bag, but it takes up a bit too much space. I think 1000D is over kill for it. Have you thought of using 500D to make a lighter version?
yes, i have actually. i agree with you that it can be made of lighter material, especially the pouches. for the mat itself, it doesn't contribute to much of the bulk, so i'd probably keep it 1000D. 500D will flap in a breeze much more.
when it kitmat first came out, there wasn't any 500D multicam material available. i've asked emdom to look into getting some and switching over to 500D for some applications. with the other colours, however (coyoteish, foliage green etc), the current 500D shades are different than the 1000D ones, so i'm wondering if people would mind (i'm thinking other applications as well, not only the kitmat).
Iraq Ninja
10-15-09, 10:16
Another one...
Somehow, most gear designers "lost the memo" about drag handles on vests. Rigid handles work better that flexible ones. Anyone who has ever had to carry a duffle bag around by the handle knows it sucks.
IMHO, a good handle is not only is strong, but is ergonomic to the guy dragging his buddy out of harms way. Give me a rigid one that I can put two hands on if needed.
Hell, someone like Magpul could make a plastic handle that snaps over existing straps.
Iraq Ninja
10-15-09, 12:19
MM,
I think 500D is the way to go for most applications in CONUS. So far, I can only think of Mayflower and Blue Force Gear who have gone this path.
Another good idea gone potentially tits up...
TacTikka XP. I like Tikka head lamps, but this one has interchangeable filters. This means easily lost in the dark under stress. Also, it makes changing colors a bit slower and probably taking both hands off of your weapon. I want a light that goes from white to red to blue with a press of a button.
Another one...
Kriss-TDI Super V. A .45 caliber sub gun with 60% less recoil. Great idea and well executed. But is it really needed? I have never seen one let alone fired one, so I can't say for sure. Internet chatter about this weapon is virtually non existent these days, especially the semi version.
External drag handles!
Would be bad if a not-so-friendly got a hold of the drag handle on your vest.
I wear a 5.11/Vatc LBE vest, and wear a separate concealable plate carrier underneath, just because the drag handle is inside the vest.
Although, in retrospect, bad guy could grab a whole lot of things back there. So my point may not hold any merit!
Iraq Ninja
10-15-09, 12:56
Joe,
Interesting perspective. I think the odds are low, especially when faced with the high odds of getting hurt and having someone drag you away. I don't want my buddy having to worry about finding the handle.
If you ever have trained at extreme close range CQB, you will find out that grabbing someone's drag strap is not very smart. Let them try...
We once tested a drag system that was worn under your armor, with leg straps and a waist belt. In the end it was just too much of a pain in the ass to wear and nobody wanted to use it.
I dislike slings that are so complex that they wrap around everything well, except your body. They do the "tactical tangle" on your weapon and get in the way at the worse of times.
The old "Octopus raping your rifle" syndrome. :p
misanthropist
10-15-09, 13:50
The old "Octopus raping your rifle" syndrome. :p
I don't post, I just come here to read and learn, but that is so funny I had to break my silence!
I don't post, I just come here to read and learn, but that is so funny I had to break my silence!
I think someone on ARFcom posted that. I can't remember who, but it stuck with me.
I'm taking notes guys!
On the subject of drag handles; I have deleted them from a lot of my designs because I was constantly getting feedback, and also based off my own experiences in Iraq, that they were superfluous and a potential snag hazard. Most guys would just grab the shoulder straps, weapon sling, etc. and start pulling. Feedback?
Stephen
Iraq Ninja
10-15-09, 15:52
Stephen,
My only experience is with PSD ops, and I have seen the handles used mostly to pull people from vehicles. Comes in handy in if things are on fire and smoking. Never had a problem with it catching on stuff, but I am not a door kicker.
What I could really use is some 10 speed pouches to hold glock mags on my belt or kit. You probably seen my photo of how I use the regular pouch to hold med kit.
I also want some 10 speeds on velcro so I can attach them inside of vehicles, all over the place. Some to hold med supplies (its hard to open and use a big med kit in the back of a fast moving vehicle), some to hold mags or smokes.
I like pistol lanyards, but not the ones that look like a phone cord from hell. I have been using a retractable wire lanyard for the past 2 years with no problems at all. Forgot who makes em, but they were for sale at the PX. Good stuff. Might even work for detachable med kits.
How about a good helmet chin strap that allows you to keep your helmet on tight and talk like a normal person?
MarshallDodge
10-15-09, 16:03
Lots of hate but I like this thread. :)
Cargo pants and shorts with the cargo pockets down by the knees, making anything you stick in them flop around uncomfortably when walking or running.
Nylon webbing too slick for buckles and plastic teeth to grip.
-B
How about a good helmet chin strap that allows you to keep your helmet on tight and talk like a normal person?
i have dreamed of this one for a long time, still dreaming :(
I'm taking notes guys! On the subject of drag handles; I have deleted them from a lot of my designs because I was constantly getting feedback, and also based off my own experiences in Iraq, that they were superfluous and a potential snag hazard. Most guys would just grab the shoulder straps, weapon sling, etc. and start pulling. Feedback? Stephen
My .02...
Most existing drag handles have insufficient width to allow a rescuer to get a postive two-handed hold on the handle to effectively pull on the casualty. Most folks are incapable of pulling a casualty with only one hand. But if you make the drag handle wider, it becomes a nuisance or hazard itself.
In training exercises, I usually find that most rescuers will grab a casualty by the shoulder straps of their LBE, using two hands, even when it's equipped with a drag handle.
I have snagged drag handles on my tactical vest(s) in confined spaces and brush. Not enough that I couldn't break free, but I didn't need that distraction either.
Certain designs lend themselves to add-on handles where required. I've often wondered why they aren't deleted from the main body, but offered as an accessory.
Joe,
Interesting perspective. I think the odds are low, especially when faced with the high odds of getting hurt and having someone drag you away. I don't want my buddy having to worry about finding the handle.
If you ever have trained at extreme close range CQB, you will find out that grabbing someone's drag strap is not very smart. Let them try...
We once tested a drag system that was worn under your armor, with leg straps and a waist belt. In the end it was just too much of a pain in the ass to wear and nobody wanted to use it.
The handle of my vest is actually right near the top. It would still be easily grabbed by a foe, but "Out of sight, out of mind" as they say. My superior wears the same vest, and there haven't been any drag issues in force-on-force scenarios.
I think it would be more of an issue for something like an officer in a riot-type situation.
But, it's probably a non-issue. No one has ever got into my critical space, so it's a useless precaution. There haven't been any issues with dragging me away, either. If nothing else, it makes a nice, low-profile design.
My only other gear hangup is velcro plate carriers. I like my vest that I can put on quick like a jacket, and zip up. I don't care for fiddling something over my head, and using the flap. Personal preference! Buckles and Zippers.
Stephen,
What I could really use is some 10 speed pouches to hold glock mags on my belt or kit. You probably seen my photo of how I use the regular pouch to hold med kit.
I also want some 10 speeds on velcro so I can attach them inside of vehicles, all over the place. Some to hold med supplies (its hard to open and use a big med kit in the back of a fast moving vehicle), some to hold mags or smokes.
We'll have a fully fleshed out 10 Speed line at SHOT Show (less than 3 months).
As far as the Velcro backed Ten Speed; we're already doing that with the DAP line. We've got a triple M4 and a triple pistol backed with hook Velcro. In addition, we've got several Med sized and other accessory pouches all Velcro backed. The Vinyl zippered utility is a perfect vehicle med pouch and I keep one in my car slapped to the felt upholstry in the back. If it stops raining long enough to snap a photo, I will.
Stephen
I keep 550 cord and a biner zip tied into the molle on the back so you can grab the drag handle and drag or grab the biner and pull the cord and get back behind cover.
Did this with all my guys as well, can also toss the biner to someone already behind cover so they can drag your ass out.
If it stops raining long enough to snap a photo, I will.
Stephen
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/stephen_101st/Gear/DAPPERVehicleuse.jpg
I've done the GMV thing and the PSD thing, and ridden in an MRAP and Stryker - How about a vehicle (Sub, SUV, sedan, or tactical vehicle) where the interior was actually designed for someone wearing full kit.
Likewise, how about a vehicle that actually has someplace to put your rifle when you're driving. Or seats under cut for bail out bags.
How about firing ports on armored Subs that are actually usable and don't just give you a huge blind spot in the middle of your window when you're a trunk monkey.
Why are there still chest rigs that use and X arrangement in the back, but still don't have some sort of arrangement for preventing the X from planting itself in the middle of your neck bone.
How about a radio that has all the commonly used controls on the handmike, so I could get my radio off the front of my rig and out of the real estate that is used for ammo and med gear. There are some hand mikes that have some controls, and the detachable faceplates are a step in the right direction, but the controls are usually not sufficient.
How about a stock on a belt fed that was actually designed for use by an armored dude who doesn't have the arm length of an NBA center (reference Iraq Ninja's MK48).
I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch.
One more.
I hate plate / armor carriers that have the buckles toward the back, so I have to get someone else to buckle me into them.
I've got short arms and some scar tissue in my shoulders, and that stuff just isn't funny.
I hate that every kind of NOD we use has a different mount.
Simplicity in design is something that I've been a fan of since my days in architecture school. I've seen it play out in so many ways in my career in construction from complex structural designs to complex tools. More joints/seams = more failure points. I've carried that over to gear, guns, cars, personal tools, etc.
It's the reason I like dedicated mag pouches vs. molle (although I understand the theory behind being able to reconfigure your molle, I'd rather just have two rigs). It's the reason I like the Geissele vs. the RRA. the list goes on and on.
Very interesting thread.
Iraq Ninja
11-10-09, 11:39
The TAD Gear bandoleer might be one of those great ideas that maybe wasn't really needed.
http://www.tadgear.com/uploads/products/large/tad_gb_mc_d1w_650.jpg
I thought the concept was interesting, but never seriously considered it. It was touted as being useful for vehicles, but as someone who does only vehicle ops, I never saw the need. I much prefer a belt rig, plate carrier, or a grab bag.
The tactical community never embraced the TAG bandoleer, and it is rarely mentioned at all on forums, except by air softers and gear junkies.
The TAD name attracted a lot of attention and sales, but I think they ultimately end up on ebay. :)
Yes, it can be quickly thrown over your shoulder, but so can a plate carrier with mag pouches.
Like many ideas, it never went viral and drifted off of the tactical gear radar for now. So, is the concept still valid and if so, was it poorly executed?
Failure2Stop
11-10-09, 12:15
I like the TAD bandoleer.
Not as a replacement to a belt rig or chest rig, but as a resupply grab and go for mags and frags.
Some others that operate in a semi-permissive environment that have long-guns in the truck, but walk around in plain clothes with a conceled pistol use it as a replacement for the mag-bag, since they are a complete cluster for down-vehicle ambush un-assing.
I guess some of it comes down to application. One man's vehicle ops are competely different than another's.
I like pistol lanyards, but not the ones that look like a phone cord from hell. I have been using a retractable wire lanyard for the past 2 years with no problems at all. Forgot who makes em, but they were for sale at the PX. Good stuff. Might even work for detachable med kits.
http://www.gearkeeper.com/Resources/rt3-rt2.jpg
Gearkeeper?
Huge +1 on drop leg stuff.. I hate drop legs.
Iraq Ninja
11-10-09, 13:36
http://www.gearkeeper.com/Resources/rt3-rt2.jpg
Gearkeeper?
That is it. Never seen one fail yet. Reminds of the time someone didn't have it hooked up and dropped a glock into a very smelly PortaCan by accident.
F2S,
I was hoping to evoke a response :). I guess I am more of a bag guy. But, we do use regular USGI bandoleers for this application. Take two bandoleers and sew it into one long eight pocket bandoleer with mags and med kit. The TAD one looks a bit too bulky for me, and I didn't have good luck with the Gen 2 Fast Mags lasting over here.
USGI bandoleers are great for tossing ammo to a buddy across the road too. :)
I have often wondered if the German fallschirmjager style bandoleer could be modernized to hold 20 round mags for this kind of application. Could be used over the neck or over the shoulder.
http://www.lostbattalions.com/german33-45/luft/luftpix/FJOliveBandoleer1.jpg
I was hoping to evoke a response :). I guess I am more of a bag guy. But, we do use regular USGI bandoleers for this application. Take two bandoleers and sew it into one long eight pocket bandoleer with mags and med kit. The TAD one looks a bit too bulky for me, and I didn't have good luck with the Gen 2 Fast Mags lasting over here.
USGI bandoleers are great for tossing ammo to a buddy across the road too. :)
I have often wondered if the German fallschirmjager style bandoleer could be modernized to hold 20 round mags for this kind of application. Could be used over the neck or over the shoulder.
IN: Have you seen the Michigan Tactical Supply Battleer?
http://www.michigantacticalsupply.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=10
http://www.michigantacticalsupply.com/images/bando1.jpg
http://www.michigantacticalsupply.com/images/bando4.jpg
I think someone on ARFcom posted that. I can't remember who, but it stuck with me.
I remember that. Couldn't have said it better.
Cargo pants and shorts with the cargo pockets down by the knees, making anything you stick in them flop around uncomfortably when walking or running.
Gods, yes. The damned things are called "thigh" pockets, not "knee" pockets. In addition to having stuff bang off where your IT band tucks into your knee joint, it's a colossal pain to have to hitch over sideways to get stuff in/out.
Nobody does this well at all, except in the "discreet" tactical pants. Moving cargo pockets 2" upward is all it would take, and I'd be happy to ditch the small mag/knife/tool pocket to have that happen.
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