View Full Version : Will you vaccinate yourself and/or your family?
Outlander Systems
10-14-09, 14:59
Absolutely not.
parishioner
10-14-09, 15:04
I have heard that some recipients are exhibiting signs of neurological problems so....no. The only people that seem to be dying are those that are imunocompromised.
It may seem that way, but we (Los Alamos) had an apparently healthy 21 year old woman die from it.
http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/abqnewseeker-mainmenu-39/15750-935am-los-alamos-woman-dies-of-swine-flu.html
You sure it didn't have anything to do with the Manhattan Project? ;)
Just trying to bring in some Los Alamos history that alot of people probably don't know about or have forgotten. Google it if you'd like some interesting reading.
Swine Flu Vaccinations not always required.
Some simple habits such as the following could go a long way towards avoiding/ preventing coming down with most common strains of influenza;
1. Wash your hands frequently with Hot Water and Soap (especially prior to eating)
2. Avoid physical contact with other 'persons' whenever practical, i.e. shaking hands with strangers, enclosed areas where large numbers of people congregate such as a movie theater.
3. Do not rub your eyes or touch your mouth/ nose, if possible.
4. Avoid persons who appear ill or exhibit obvious symptoms such as coughing or sneezing.
Most Importantly get enough sleep. Being well rested is one of the greatest methods of ensuring that your immune system will work at its best.
The majority of the people who have been affected are the OLD and Young. And of course pregnant women and persons with pre-existing conditions.
Also, it has been widely reported that a great concentration of the reported Swine Flu cases are on College Campuses. So avoiding those areas would be well advised, particularly the dormitories, library, gym, and cafeterias.
Stay Healthy and Safe
SkiDevil
P.S. For those who work with the public one suggestion I heard to use is to tell people who are insistent with shaking hands that you may be coming down with Stomache Flu which would typically discourage someone from grabbing onto your paw. I read that in SWAT magazine, can't remember if it was Brent Wheat or Scotty Reitz but useful to know.
no damn white devil drugs for me. i start itchin for my tinfoil hat every time i see those flu-shot tables.
I don't ever get vaccinated and I don't ever get sick. Doesn't take a 5th grader to connect those dots. :cool:
I don't get shots and I RARELY ever get sick. I'll take my chances.
Pretty sure I have already had it, so no I wont be.
The Little Piggy Death Bug doesn't scare me.
yep, i am passing on it. My wife works with kids and she keeps asking if she should get it just in case. And I keep telling her, you can tke your chances with the kids ( none of which are sick....yet) or you can go get the vaccination, which many people have reported ill effects from.
I may be my tinfoil hat, but I think this H1N1 is getting a little blown out of proportion.
QuickStrike
10-15-09, 06:04
I don't get shots and I RARELY ever get sick. I'll take my chances.
+1
Haven't had a shot in YEERS! :cool:
The last regular flu shot I got was required, and I was sick for a few days. Ill pass.
Not sure. The wife, who is in the medical profession, said a lot of the chemicals in the vaccine aren't FDA approved and there is evidence piling up that suggest the vaccine is going to put you more at risk than the flu itself.
Haven't more people died from the vaccination that the actual flu?
I have tylenol and afrin so I think I will be ok.
I just got my H1N1 last night, one of the county nurses came out to do the agency. It was the nasal spray version of the vaccine. I think I'm having side effects, though - I have a strong urge to go outside, roll in the mud and root for acorns.
(Seriously, I'm susceptible to respiratory infections, so I *always* do the flu vaccine. Less risk for me.)
The last time I got the flu shot I got deathly ill and almost was hospitalized.
I haven't gotten the shot since and I've only gotten flu once, and I was only down for a day with the actual illness.
I'll pass.
17 years since my last flu shot. Only had the flu once in 17 years.
Don't lick handrails, stay away from sick people, and stop kissing people with boogers hanging out their nose and you'll most likely be fine.
Oh, and wash your hands, a lot and don't touch your face. Those things alone will help you to not get sick. Pretty common sense of course... but last time I checked Wal-Mart was out of common sense. :)
MarshallDodge
10-15-09, 09:01
Don't lick handrails, stay away from sick people, and stop kissing people with boogers hanging out their nose and you'll most likely be fine.
Oh, and wash your hands, a lot and don't touch your face. Those things alone will help you to not get sick. Pretty common sense of course... but last time I checked Wal-Mart was out of common sense. :)
:D
We are not planning on getting the shots.
The last time I got the flu shot I got deathly ill and almost was hospitalized.
I haven't gotten the shot since and I've only gotten flu once, and I was only down for a day with the actual illness.
I'll pass.
about once every 4 or 5 years i get laid up pretty bad with the flu, and it's always after a long stint of very little sleep and poor nutrition.
sleep and good food- no flu. for me, at least. dont need no damn government science projects squirting into my shit. remember Tuskegee??
a relative of my inlaws is a pretty well respected epidemiologist - he travels around the world lecturing national health organizations. he was in town recently consulting with the CDC and I asked him about the flu shot.
he says he is specifically not going to get the pig-flu shot as he says they have pretty much rushed it through without as much development as they normally do.
so, if HE isn't going to get one, I don't think I'm going to either...
I'm self-medicating by eating a bacon sammich every day. :)
The last regular flu shot I got was required, and I was sick for a few days. Ill pass.
What's funny is everyone I know that has gotten a flu shot gets sick like clock work about a week after they get the shot. They swear up and down that it's not possible to get sick because it's a 'dead' strain of the virus. BS I say. If they can't even be honest about this part of it what means they're saying/doing anything that I can trust. I think it's purely snake oil and refuse to get them.
but last time I checked Wal-Mart was out of common sense. :)
Is that why there are SO many idiots who shop there? They're just wandering the isles waiting for them to get another truck load of common sense in and stock the shelves? :D
Submariner
10-15-09, 11:17
Bona fides: attorney who has worked in health care industry. My dos centavos worth.
This goes beyond Reagan's "Trust but verify" especially where there is no informed consent. I am suspicious when folks with blanket legal immunity want to stick a needle in my arm.
I'm a great believer in quid pro quo: Talk to my lawyer, own all liability and treble damages for my survivors. Until then, the shirt cuffs stays buttoned, thank you very much.
The wife and I are both in our mid 60's, so will pass on the H1N1. We have both had it in the past, as it struck in 1957 and 1977. We did take the current seasonal variety. I still work in a hospital so am exposed quite a bit, the wife is retired so not as much exposure.
I use a lot of precautions routeinly, wash hands often, Do not touch facuet handels or doorknobs in restrooms to turn off or open, use a paper towel, even if I have to throw it on the floor when leaving. Throughly wash fresh fruit such as apples, oranges, ect ect with soap and water and rinse well before using. Who knows who has handled and how clean their hands were
Throughly wash fresh fruit such as apples, oranges, ect ect with soap and water and rinse well before using. Who knows who has handled and how clean their hands were
at the very least, the picker who picked 'em shits in the field and does not wash his hands before he goes back to picking.
photosniper
10-15-09, 20:52
My wife and I have been seriously researching this, our school district is offering free H1N1 vaccines for the kids.
We decided not to get the vaccine, way to many possible problems not limited to but including possible neurological side effects from aluminum, and the fact that it was rushed onto the market. My brother in law worked for Wyeth and other Pharma companies specifically on the flu virus and he said no way.
Good enough for us. We'll take our chances.
ohiorifleman
10-16-09, 07:43
This was posted in our local paper this morning- Make's you kind of suspicious when they call it H1N1 yet don't test for it unless you are hospitalized and at least one manufacturer is producing more seasonal flu vaccine then they are probably capable of- surely they wouldn't take any shortcuts, I can't imagine what's happening at the H1N1 plants..
Health officials believe the flu strain most people are experiencing right now is the H1N1 variety, not the seasonal flu. However, testing for H1N1 is not advised by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention unless a patient is hospitalized or there are large clusters of people exhibiting symptoms.
A recent announcement from Sanofi Pasteur, one of the four manufacturers of the seasonal flu vaccine, said the company is working at maximum capacity to produce 125 million doses in the time it takes to produce 50 million. Unfortunately, Pasteur noted, the company is struggling to manufacture two different types of influenza vaccines at the same time. from www.dailystandard.com
What's funny is everyone I know that has gotten a flu shot gets sick like clock work about a week after they get the shot. They swear up and down that it's not possible to get sick because it's a 'dead' strain of the virus. BS I say. If they can't even be honest about this part of it what means they're saying/doing anything that I can trust. I think it's purely snake oil and refuse to get them.
that's the whole point - even though the virus is dead, your body responds to its presence by creating antibodies to kill it. once it does this, you're immune. from this exact specific virus. supposedly...
you're going to get sick a little as it's the body's response that makes you feel bad. how little (or not) you get sick is not consistent from one individual to another.
that's the whole point - even though the virus is dead, your body responds to its presence by creating antibodies to kill it. once it does this, you're immune. from this exact specific virus. supposedly...
you're going to get sick a little as it's the body's response that makes you feel bad. how little (or not) you get sick is not consistent from one individual to another.
So if you're going to get sick what's the point? Also, why do they say you won't? Sounds like a sham on all of the nation to me and the gullible are losing the battle.
'I don't want to chance getting sick so here's my money to get me sick.'
Sounds logical to me.
woodandsteel
10-16-09, 12:33
My wife has been dragging me and the kids in for the regular flu shot for that last several years. I am always down for about a week after the shot.
My wife and I both agree that we will not get the H1N1 vacination this year. There are just too many unknowns out there. This decision is not an easy one. My wife is pregnant, and pregnant women are in the high risk group. but, we talked with our doctor and she said that she doesn't blame us for not getting the shot. She only suggests that we come into her office at the first sign of the flu, for tamiflu
thopkins22
10-16-09, 12:40
Not sure. The wife, who is in the medical profession, said a lot of the chemicals in the vaccine aren't FDA approved and there is evidence piling up that suggest the vaccine is going to put you more at risk than the flu itself.
The last time that swine flu made headlines there was a vaccine created as well. It was supposed to be mandatory, but it permanently screwed a bunch of people up so they stopped.
As I'm writing this, the regular old flu is still way more lethal than H1N1.
Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" continues to make more and more sense. There are real things to worry about, like the thousands of cases of tuberculosis in this country each year.
Probably not. Have never done the Flu shot yet. Wife is however an ICU RN and has to get the regular one. Don't know if she has to get the H1N1 variety as well.
We have a 20 month old however and that worries me a little bit. We are big on washing hands and all the safety precautions (wife has been on that kick since I have known her) and will probably take the kids out into public less this winter
RancidSumo
10-16-09, 15:09
Not a chance. This whole ordeal has been blown WAY out of proportion. I don't believe that H1N1 is any more of a threat than the seasonal flu.
Not a chance. This whole ordeal has been blown WAY out of proportion. I don't believe that H1N1 is any more of a threat than the seasonal flu.
seems to be LESS of a threat, from what i can tell. the seasonal flu kills 60,000 people in the US alone... how many have died from MEXICAN flu so far? not very many... my little sister just got over it.. she was coughing and not comfortable for a few days, that's about it.
The_War_Wagon
10-17-09, 19:01
Didn't see the "HELL F****** NO!" option, so I just voted "no." Ask me about the MMR vaccine, and my 4 Autistic children. :mad:
RancidSumo
10-17-09, 19:35
:rolleyes:
If that was directed at me, perhaps you should try an actual argument instead of just a smiley implying that I am wrong.
It usually makes you more credible if you use words.
Ok, what happened?
He sparked my curiousity too... please elaborate.
John_Wayne777
10-17-09, 20:39
Let's keep things civil, gents.
JW - I meant no disrespect and my intentions were only to hear more about his story. He threw bait in the water and I got hooked :)
Or......... maybe you didn't mean me........ I read up a post or two ;)
dookie1481
10-17-09, 21:43
He sparked my curiousity too... please elaborate.
There are a lot of people that believe that the mercury in thimerosol (a preservative in many vaccines) is linked to a higher incidence of autism in young kids...however, thimerosal was phased out in '99 (I think) and autism rates haven't dropped since then, I believe, suggesting that the link is tenuous at best.
Jay
I'm self-medicating by eating a bacon sammich every day. :)
Funny you say that. I just cooked a pound today for breakfast sandwiches this week for breakfast. Gotta love da schwiiiiine.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-17-09, 22:08
No vaccine, I'm going with good old blood letting and leeches.
My wife and I get the seasonal flu shot yearly now and the pneumonia shot every 5. We will not be testing the swine flu vaccine!!!!!!!!!!! Way to many unknowns.:eek:
woodandsteel
10-17-09, 22:24
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/health/101309_woman_disabled_by_flu_shot_reaction_dystonia
Case in point.
That's a horrible sory. That is why, I will say again, my family will not get the shot. I don't care how rare that side effect is. I've never really had much luck.
Smuckatelli
10-17-09, 23:26
H1N1 vaccination; no, it has already visited our family, supposedly we now are immune to it. No deaths but our son has been fighting a nasty pnuemonia for the past 4 weeks. A CT Skan today confirmed this. Our oldest daughter was laid up for 7 days, wife was out for 4 days, youngest for 4 days and I was out for 2 days. Our son was put on tamiflu for 10 days.
Seasonal flu vaccine; yes, everyone in our family except our son will get the shots. Flu mist is out of the question.
All of the medical personel at our hospital did receive the H1N1 and seasonal flu vaccinations.
woodandsteel
10-18-09, 00:05
Seasonal flu vaccine; yes, everyone in our family except our son will get the shots. Flu mist is out of the question.
Is there a reason why the flu mist is out of the question?
I'm not trying to invade you privacy here. It's just that, we were never offered the mist. It was always the shot. I never thought to ask why.
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 00:09
Is there a reason why the flu mist is out of the question?
I'm not trying to invade you privacy here. It's just that, we were never offered the mist. It was always the shot. I never thought to ask why.
The mist is a live vaccine. Our family is spun up on the pluses and negatives of the vaccines. We are not willing to throw the dice.
Not an invasion of privacy:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/tomasnichols
woodandsteel
10-18-09, 00:17
The mist is a live vaccine. Our family is spun up on the pluses and negatives of the vaccines. We are not willing to throw the dice.
Not an invasion of privacy:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/tomasnichols
Thank you.
I guess I will still be doing the blasted shots then (for the regular flu). I guess I should have asked the wife. She is the one that keeps dragging me in there.
you can get the mist you just have to find a place that has it, and i work at a hospital and just so everyone know we got our first swine flu vaccine shipment in the other day and i was reading the reports that came with it and this "vaccine" hasnt been tested on humans so be weary. before anyone flys off the handle with "they cant give a vaccine that hasnt been tested on humans" yes they can they in their eyes they are the government they can do whatever they want as long as they think its for the good of the people.
p.s. the swine flu is b.s. its just like the regular flu it really only effects the really young and really old and nobody dies from the swine flu they die from complications due to underlying causes while they have the swine flu. the regular flu still kills more people a year than the swine flu.
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 00:24
you can get the mist you just have to find a place that has it, and i work at a hospital
Yes, most people can get the mist....we can not.
woodandsteel
10-18-09, 00:48
Smuckatelli, PM sent
Yes, most people can get the mist....we can not.
who exactly is we?
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 00:58
who exactly is we?
My family.
im not trying to be a smarta$$ but any viral vaccine whether it be mist or subcue injection is a live virus thats the point of a viral vaccine to introduce the the virus to your immune system so it can fight it when you immune system is at its healthiest then you develop an immunity to that particular strain. besides the seasonal flu vaccine is only 10% effective.
My dad is back in country for a week, so naturaly we had a little party... Just got done eating slow smoked brisket, wonderful!
Anyway one of my sisters brought up her friends. All of them (sis included) work in two infectious disease labs at a major east coast ivy league medical school (in the Boston area). All of them are post or pre PHD (I'm the stupid one in the family).
I'm not going to go on my rant about how I feel about the insanity regarding the media hype of H1N1. But I want to share this, finally my fiance cut to the chase in the discussion tonight and asked: How many of you are going to get vaccinated?
The answer: None
Literaly none. As in Zero.
These are the people that make vacines, that study diseases, and watch pandemic trends. They have access to more information then I could dream of. And without bating an eye all of them said no.
This little "pandemic" is a non-issue. The only thing it is doing is helping WHO understand the spread of diseases in a globalized world.
So, take that for what it is.
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 01:23
I need to give S/A to avoid misleading you guys.
My 7 year old son, Tomas is allergic to eggs/dairy products. The vaccines are incubated in egg whites so the vaccinations are a no go unless we prep him with anti allergy drugs.
On top of the allergies he was diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia on 6 Sept 07. He has been fighting this beast for 25 months now. The H1N1 conducted a fient operation on us 5 weeks ago, the quick test on our daughter came back negative. the oncologist determined that the symptoms that Tomas was showing was due to a viral infection. A week later we found out that our daughter did have H1N1 and it pretty much hit all of us. Tomas was given Tamiflu. the rest of us sucked it up. Last Wednesday Tomas ran a temp of 100.3...EAP required an ER run, he has been at Walter Reed since then. They ran a CT scan on him today and found pneumonia in his lower left lung...he's getting treated now, he should return home sometime this week.
I am not an expert, I'm a simple retired Marine Infantryman...nothing more...nothing less. There are a lot of stories going around about do or don't vaccinate. For the past 25 months a simple thing like a teenager sleep over could put our son in a grave. These types of decisions have gone past the 'I'll be sick for a little while' stage to 'we could introduce something into Tomas' environment that will kill him'. He isn't a bubble boy by any means but we have to be careful. The debates about getting the shot are not debates, our decisions are based on probable outcomes.
I want to see him competing at Camp Perry in 5 years. I'll poke my arm and feel like shit for a couple of days to facilitate this happening.
As soon as he gets that port out of his chest in March 2011......he'll be getting introduced to marksmanship.
My dad is back in country for a week, so naturaly we had a little party... Just got done eating slow smoked brisket, wonderful!
Anyway one of my sisters brought up her friends. All of them (sis included) work in two infectious disease labs at a major east coast ivy league medical school (in the Boston area). All of them are post or pre PHD (I'm the stupid one in the family).
I'm not going to go on my rant about how I feel about the insanity regarding the media hype of H1N1. But I want to share this, finally my fiance cut to the chase in the discussion tonight and asked: How many of you are going to get vaccinated?
The answer: None
Literaly none. As in Zero.
These are the people that make vacines, that study diseases, and watch pandemic trends. They have access to more information then I could dream of. And without bating an eye all of them said no.
This little "pandemic" is a non-issue. The only thing it is doing is helping WHO understand the spread of diseases in a globalized world.
So, take that for what it is.
i totally agree it really is a non issue it's just another way for whatever drug company to make a dime, i dont know what we charge for a swine flu shot but im sure its some crazy amount for christ sake most hospitals charge $50 for a box of tissue in an overnight room. that crap doesnt come anywhere near my floor i work on an quarantined immuno compromised floor we would have people dropping dead all over the place.
oh gotcha smuckatelli if your son is being treated leukemia thats a no no his immune system is so compromised he may as well not even have one. i apologize if i came off as rude or like a know it all i didnt mean to, you have nothing but my best hopes and wishes for your family, i see things like this every day and i still couldnt begin to understand what it would feel like or what your going through.
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 01:27
im not trying to be a smarta$$
I was posting (unzipping my fly) while you posted this. There are differences between breathing in a live virus and getting injected with a dead virus. Case in point is that there is a warning posted on my son's door at Walter Redd stating that if you recieved the mist in the past 7 days...you are not allowed in the room.
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 01:34
i totally agree it really is a non issue it's just another way for whatever drug company to make a dime, i dont know what we charge for a swine flu shot but im sure its some crazy amount for christ sake most hospitals charge $50 for a box of tissue in an overnight room. that crap doesnt come anywhere near my floor i work on an quarantined immuno compromised floor we would have people dropping dead all over the place.
I don't completely agree with your assessment. I pay $460 a year for health insurance, this includes vaccinations, drugs...treatment. There is no financial gain for any of the doctors (O-3 - O-6) that give us advice.
From what we have been told, H1N1 is less of a danger than the common flu. Only difference is that H1N1 made the jump from swine to human..which made it very different than the garden variety flu. The jump also created a raise in the market value of tin foil.
BTW...I live in an immuno compromised house.
The_War_Wagon
10-18-09, 07:08
Ok, what happened?
It caused the onset in one child, and exacerbated the Autism in another, even waiting until age 5 for the vaccine. We will NOT innoculate the other 2 - who have Autism - so as not to FURTHER aggravate their condition. :mad:
You can recover from Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (I had mumps as a child) - thousands of years of civilization of living with all three have proven that. Autism, is a LIFE SENTENCE. You do NOT outgrow it. :(
Smuckatelli
10-18-09, 08:42
Autism, is a LIFE SENTENCE. You do NOT outgrow it. :(
As is leukemia in reference to a life sentence also you don't outgrow it, unfortunately common childhood illness turn out to be a death sentence for these children.
Good luck to both of you gentlemen with your children's conditions. Those are very powerful stories. Certainly makes one think, especially as the father of a little boy myself.
Prayers to you both as well.
If this flu was of a type that was unusually contagious and lethal I would consider getting immunized.
From what I have read it isn't.
When you weigh the possibility of having some kind of extremely rare but quality of life damaging side effects versus just a few days being sick to me it is a no brainer NOT to get immunized.
If this was some kind of super flu that was killing half the people who got it and spreading through our society like wildfire that would be another matter.
Example: The Last Centurion book by Ringo.
The_War_Wagon
10-20-09, 07:48
Have you been able to prove it?
For doctors who DON'T shovel AMA weapons-grade balonium around, and who actually CARE about their patients, they will tell you, there is a DEFINITE link. If the AMA admitted it, it would up themselves, doctors, hospitals, medical groups, pharamceutical manufacturers & the like, to lawsuits that would make the national debt look like pocket change.
I don't even want to sue anybody. I simply want to give the shot to them, their kids, & grandkids. REQUIRE doctor's children to get the SAME vaccines, and you'll see the tune change RAPIDLY (same as requiring CONgress subscribe to their rationed Obamacare plan). :mad:
Outlander Systems
10-20-09, 12:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh5F5wP8RdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh5F5wP8RdU
I've seen that on TV, that poor woman.
:(
Outlander Systems
10-20-09, 12:37
Have you been able to prove it?
Why, what ever do you mean? Mercury might just be GOOD for you!
http://i.abcnews.com/Health/Germs/story?id=3655803&page=1
"As federal health officials offer more evidence that the mercury-containing vaccine preservative thimerosal is safe, many vaccine experts say in retrospect that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's decision to remove it from childhood vaccines may have done more harm than good by raising public fears."
Or another "gem"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc
But...wait:
http://www.jpands.org/vol11no1/geier.pdf
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/349/thimerosal.jpg
Oh, there's more. This time from the EPA:
"For fetuses, infants, and children, the primary health effect of methylmercury is impaired neurological development."
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/effects.htm
...
....
Is anyone here familiar with the term "cognitive dissonance"?
No need to, wifey and I got it from a waitress beginning month in Akron. Coughing in her hands, open air and handling food. Just now recovering. This is a nasty one guys, you don't want it. It went straight for the lungs, no screwing around. Step away from the carriers quick. They don't have enough sense to stay home or cover their coughs.
You had swine flu?
Yes, not fun.. 97% of flu reports now are all swine flu. They aren't even testing anymore for A/B. It effected my wife only slightly different. We both had nausea, aches etc. She got hit with aches more than me and immediately. Both had / have bad respiratory illness. I was up for almost 50 hours straight when I first got it. It won't let you rest. We are on day 17 or so. It tapers slowly. I'm guessing it's a 3 week ordeal. We contacted the restaurant and health dept in that area, they paid them a visit. It's a tough bug but I don't think it's as bad as all the hype. It seems to be worse for the little ones.
funny thing too.. We work out of the house.. I picked up surgical masks in Sept just in case it hits the area for some protection. I think we were the first to get it here, bringing it down from northern ohio. Best laid plans don't always work out.. ;)
Symptoms were mostly the same, wifey experienced more body aches than I did. She thinks it's the worse flu she's ever had. When you think you are on the way to recover, it's just regrouping for another assault. bounces between sinus and lungs. I gave me a nice sinus infection on top of it. Last couple of days I was able to nod off about 4 - 5 am. when you go horizontal, the coughs start uncontrollable. Very little flem, mostly dry kind of like bronchitis. We both had nausea but no vomiting, it just comes and goes. So I guess in a week or two we can walk with the zombies like superman. We are staying in for now for other's sake.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-20-09, 14:00
Wife is a pediatrician and neonatologist. Without pause we gave our kids all their immunizations. Just got the flu shots last week for the fam and wife got the H1N1 shot yesterday. She would be less than thrilled if she had to take the live vaccine for H1N1, but that is her only reservation.
The true extent of a problem is often times not known until after. Those of you who say that this one is not a biggie have zero evidentiary basis - because nobody knows for sure what this one is. I can tell you that 25% of our ICU beds as of yesterday were taken by intubated H1N1 patients, with 2 recent death.
When this is all set and done, we'll round up all numbers and find out if this one is more virulent or has higher case-fatality rate. Meanwhile, I get epid. reports of young people without pre-existing conditions die, something that's barely heard of with regular influenza strains. You all make your own conclusions.
Yes, not fun.. 97% of flu reports now are all swine flu. They aren't even testing anymore for A/B. It effected my wife only slightly different. We both had nausea, aches etc. She got hit with aches more than me and immediately. Both had / have bad respiratory illness. I was up for almost 50 hours straight when I first got it. It won't let you rest. We are on day 17 or so. It tapers slowly. I'm guessing it's a 3 week ordeal. We contacted the restaurant and health dept in that area, they paid them a visit. It's a tough bug but I don't think it's as bad as all the hype. It seems to be worse for the little ones.
funny thing too.. We work out of the house.. I picked up surgical masks in Sept just in case it hits the area for some protection. I think we were the first to get it here, bringing it down from northern ohio. Best laid plans don't always work out.. ;)
I really hate to contradict you, and i hope that you and yours are alright. Most likely you do have Swine Flu, but I am curious if you were given verifiable official test results that state that you officially have the bug?
If you read back on my posts in this thread you will see that I was recently having a discussion with some very in-tune individuals regarding this.
I was under the impression that U.S. hospitals/clinics were not actually testing for H1N1 unless specifically requested because the cost of the individual test is to expensive to administer to all of the individuals that come in with flu like symptoms. Rather what they are doing, is assuming that individuals with flu like symptoms, that test positive for "the flu" do in fact have H1N1. The official scientific verification (H1N1 test) though is not being given.
Chances are you have swine flu, but the fact that you had an "official test' are doubtful unless you offered to pay for it out of pocket (which is possible). And your statement about not giving the normal flu test is actually backwards. They are using the normal flu test to track the likely spread of H1N1, and most likely that is what you received. Your doctor probably just used basic logic, and reasoning to diagnose you, not an official test.
Hope you feel better.
Those of you who say that this one is not a biggie have zero evidentiary basis - because nobody knows for sure what this one is. I.
.
Sorry but I call BullSh@t. Your wrong.
Actually "swine" flu, and "bird" flu are very common throughout the history of the flu. Pigs are capable of getting pig, bird, and human variations of the flu, and thus cause several human based outbreaks. This is very well recorded, and has been common knowledge amongst real experts for years. H1N1 is a mutated version of a swine based flu that can be transmitted between humans. This is not anything new, it is just a new strain of something that has happened several times in the past. But, it hasn't happened in the last 50-60 years in any great significance, and so the WHO and the CDC are watching it closely to see if it mutates in such a way that would result in significant danger to the human population. The only thing people "don't know" is if these mutations will happen. They know plenty though about the actual bug that is effecting people right now.
Believe it or not one of the reasons "young people" are so at risk with this current flu is that unlike the older living generations they have never been exposed to any mutated/evolved form of a swine flu, where as the older generations have and thus have a some what stronger immunity to the strain. Meaning your statement is wrong. People know exactly what is going on, they have seen it happen before, and they are watching to see if the strain will follow certain patterns that could result in a pandemic. The question is not if H1N1 is bad, but rather will it get really bad.
I really hate to contradict you, and i hope that you and yours are alright. Most likely you do have Swine Flu, but I am curious if you were given verifiable official test results that state that you officially have the bug?
If you read back on my posts in this thread you will see that I was recently having a discussion with some very in-tune individuals regarding this.
I was under the impression that U.S. hospitals/clinics were not actually testing for H1N1 unless specifically requested because the cost of the individual test is to expensive to administer to all of the individuals that come in with flu like symptoms. Rather what they are doing, is assuming that individuals with flu like symptoms, that test positive for "the flu" do in fact have H1N1. The official scientific verification (H1N1 test) though is not being given.
Chances are you have swine flu, but the fact that you had an "official test' are doubtful unless you offered to pay for it out of pocket (which is possible). And your statement about not giving the normal flu test is actually backwards. They are using the normal flu test to track the likely spread of H1N1, and most likely that is what you received. Your doctor probably just used basic logic, and reasoning to diagnose you, not an official test.
Hope you feel better.
Hey DMC, they didn't test, it was a diagnosis as you described. The h1n1 tests are expensive, they aren't doing them here. I posted earlier "They aren't even testing anymore for A/B" They are still doing the A/B, but it's not necessary since the h1n1 isn't being tested. I guess I should have been more clear about that.
Hey DMC, they didn't test, it was a diagnosis as you described. The h1n1 tests are expensive, they aren't doing them here. I posted earlier "They aren't even testing anymore for A/B" They are still doing the A/B, but it's not necessary since the h1n1 isn't being tested. I guess I should have been more clear about that.
Thanks for clearing that up. Feel better man! I'm glad to hear that you all seem to be on the tail end of your colds!;)
Meaning your statement is wrong. People know exactly what is going on, they have seen it happen before, and they are watching to see if the strain will follow certain patterns that could result in a pandemic. The question is not if H1N1 is bad, but rather will it get really bad.
I have worded my statement poorly. I didn't mean to imply that we are dealing with unknown entity. My statement of " those who say this one is not biggie..." referred to not virus itself, but the outcomes of pandemic, which has already happened, at least, according to WHO. Prior exposure, or lack of thereof, in younger patients can explain susceptibility of younger people to viral infection, but wouldn't explain high case-fatality rate (if in fact it is higher than with regular influenza). Case-fatality rate, or mortality, or whatever you are using to define severity of pandemics, can only be estimated after pandemics is over. So, until then, neither you nor I have anything solid to make conclusions what are one's chances to die after contracting H1N1 in year 2009. Absent solid data, one would base conclusions on something else, recognizing the limitations of anecdotal data, I can tell you that in last 13 years I've not seen so many people with flu in ICUs, nor have I seen so many young folks die.
I should have. I got home from the doc's a bit ago.....yep, flu. :mad:
I have worded my statement poorly. I didn't mean to imply that we are dealing with unknown entity. My statement of " those who say this one is not biggie..." referred to not virus itself, but the outcomes of pandemic, which has already happened, at least, according to WHO. Prior exposure, or lack of thereof, in younger patients can explain susceptibility of younger people to viral infection, but wouldn't explain high case-fatality rate (if in fact it is higher than with regular influenza). Case-fatality rate, or mortality, or whatever you are using to define severity of pandemics, can only be estimated after pandemics is over. So, until then, neither you nor I have anything solid to make conclusions what are one's chances to die after contracting H1N1 in year 2009. Absent solid data, one would base conclusions on something else, recognizing the limitations of anecdotal data, I can tell you that in last 13 years I've not seen so many people with flu in ICUs, nor have I seen so many young folks die.
O.K., I see what you were trying to say. I can tell you that I haven't seen so many sick people in my life either, but it's not in an ICU, it's just in general.
Outlander Systems
10-21-09, 09:05
Gary Null @ New York State Assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5OuzB9L48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgWO2yq1k8
Gary Null @ New York State Assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5OuzB9L48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgWO2yq1k8
Wow. :eek:
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-21-09, 13:59
Gary Null @ New York State Assembly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3XlJB7J5-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch5OuzB9L48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAgWO2yq1k8
Polio just disappeared on its own?
Just a few quick few links I found.
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html
From Wikipedia:
He has a PhD in "Interdisciplinary Studies" from Union Institute & University, a private college that gives degrees by correspondence from Cincinnati, Ohio.
He talks in circles. He is like a SNL skit that never gets to the punchline.
Polio just disappeared on its own?
So did smallpox...
The dude says that, having spent years on the issue, he never found a randomized controlled trial of vaccine efficiency. I guess those esteemed educational institutions didn't teach him how to do literature searches. Look up HPV and Gardasil, published in 2004.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-21-09, 15:33
So did smallpox...
The dude says that, having spent years on the issue, he never found a randomized controlled trial of vaccine efficiency. I guess those esteemed educational institutions didn't teach him how to do literature searches. Look up HPV and Gardasil, published in 2004.
I tried to write down the exact quote after I heard it the first time, and this prompted my comment about talking in circles. He almost seem to say that no one has shown vaccines to be effective, and seems to mean ALL vaccines. But then he seems to say that there has never been a true double-blind study done, but there is a caveat there in that they have not met his standards. (My wife about bitch slapped the monitor when he talked about no true studies having been done.)
I had an old boss that used to make people like this look silly. He would make people simplify their agruement and finding, rather than just spout off facts and imply outcomes.
Doesn't he look like Bruce Jenner?
His heart is in the right place, and he is an effective speaker, I just can't figure out where his head is.
Smuckatelli
10-21-09, 18:34
Initial rapid test on my daughter came up negative, 3 days later it popped positive for H1N1.
I didn't vote because honestly I haven't decided yet. I just got the regular flu vaccine yesterday, and even that was a tough choice for me. I got my very first flu shot last year and then proceeded to get the flu for the first time in my life (at least that I remember).
As dmcmanus mentioned I think a lot of the different reports of how H1N1 is affecting people is age related. Younger people haven't been as exposed to different strains over the years and so are being hit harder. I'm curious what age most people here would consider the break point between "younger generation" vs. "older generation". Not that I think that's the only factor, just curious. And for the record I guess I put myself squarely between the 2 groups--age 30.
To those above who have already contracted it, feel better real soon!
parishioner
10-21-09, 20:04
I just got the regular flu vaccine yesterday, and even that was a tough choice for me. I got my very first flu shot last year and then proceeded to get the flu for the first time in my life (at least that I remember).
I just have to ask...Did you not see any correlation there?
Younger people haven't been as exposed to different strains over the years and so are being hit harder. I'm curious what age most people here would consider the break point between "younger generation" vs. "older generation".
This is just a hypothesis, theoretically plausible but not proven. Answering your question, some reports say under 24, and some - under 19 on chronic aspirin therapy.
I just have to ask...Did you not see any correlation there?
I did but I felt it was a sample size of 1 and anything can happen once. Did I screw myself this go round right into getting the flu, who knows, guess I'll just have to wait and see.
I just have to ask...Did you not see any correlation there?
I just have to ask: what correlation are you seeing? Did he actually have proven flu after vaccine? Or did he have a seasonal non-influenza viral infection? Or did he have a reaction to vaccine? Or did he have a flu due to a different strain of virus?
I get flu shots every year. I've done so for last 13 years and have never had influenza infection, at least, clinically apparent. Why not to use this fact to draw conclusions?
I just have to ask: what correlation are you seeing? Did he actually have proven flu after vaccine? Or did he have a seasonal non-influenza viral infection? Or did he have a reaction to vaccine? Or did he have a flu due to a different strain of virus?
I get flu shots every year. I've done so for last 13 years and have never had influenza infection, at least, clinically apparent. Why not to use this fact to draw conclusions?
It was confirmed flu after the vaccine. As to reaction to the vaccine or different strain, both very valid questions I don't have the answer to. Hence why I decided to go ahead and give the vaccine another shot this year. Of course if I don't get the flu this year after the vaccine it still won't prove anything. I like drawing conclusions from your results more, means I shouldn't get sick:D
You have a great attitude and very logical thinking. Discussions of coincidence vs. correlation vs. causation are pet peeves of mine, 'cause I have to do it on nearly daily basis.
parishioner
10-21-09, 21:37
I just have to ask: what correlation are you seeing? Did he actually have proven flu after vaccine? Or did he have a seasonal non-influenza viral infection? Or did he have a reaction to vaccine? Or did he have a flu due to a different strain of virus?
I get flu shots every year. I've done so for last 13 years and have never had influenza infection, at least, clinically apparent. Why not to use this fact to draw conclusions?
I didn't mean to come off rude, looking back it does seem a little condescending. Sorry about that Icculus.
He was confirmed having the flu for the first time he remembers after receiving his first flu shot. All Im saying is that if it were me I wouldn't be getting another.
If I were you, I would continue getting the vaccinations since its working for you.
I tried to write down the exact quote after I heard it the first time, and this prompted my comment about talking in circles. He almost seem to say that no one has shown vaccines to be effective, and seems to mean ALL vaccines. But then he seems to say that there has never been a true double-blind study done, but there is a caveat there in that they have not met his standards. (My wife about bitch slapped the monitor when he talked about no true studies having been done.)
I had an old boss that used to make people like this look silly. He would make people simplify their agruement and finding, rather than just spout off facts and imply outcomes.
Doesn't he look like Bruce Jenner?
His heart is in the right place, and he is an effective speaker, I just can't figure out where his head is.
I agree with my mother a biology instructor, my sister a pathologist, and my aunt doctor. People like this guy should not be allowed to receive modern treatment for any disease/sickness or accident. They should be banned from accessing all benefits of human progress.
People like this guy should not be allowed to receive modern treatment for any disease/sickness or accident. They should be banned from accessing all benefits of human progress.
True story: a woman who believes in natural treatments comes down with bad bronchitis and gets antibiotics from an MD. Still feel lousy for a couple of days, and resorts to "natural Rx" of drinking urine, all while taking antibiotics. Few days later she recovers from illness and concludes that urine was what cured her...
On a serious note, medical community should take some blame for existence of dudes like this one. If we were absolutely explicit about why we do what we do, what we know and what we don't know, guys like this wouldn't have an audience.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-22-09, 01:24
Everyone throws around those numbers about how many people the health care system whacks every year. I think the real issue is that every treatment has some kind of side effect. The more powerful the mojo, the more likely it can have the power to affect other things.
I think the other thing is that we have grabbed all the low hanging fruit, and gains now made are at the edges, where the causation and benefits are harder to see. Not crapping in your well water is a big gain, washing hands before surgery is a winner, combating high mutatable and variable micro organisms is tough.
"Dr." Nash, according to the wiki page, doubts the HIV-AIDS link. May I buy the good doctor a nice night with a handful of Nigerian hookers?
It also says he gets two hours of sleep a night, which might explain his delivery style and lack of focus.
http://boards.medscape.com/forums?128@659.dsoJavMwfqi@.29f60079!comment=1
A Budget of Dumb Asses
Mark Crislip, MD, Infectious Diseases, 08:40PM Sep 7, 2009
Flu season is here, kinda sorta, it never really went away thanks to H1N1. I was rounding today, lucky me with the three day weekend, when one of my colleagues mentioned a post I had written a year ago at the old blog about the flu vaccine. It was printed and put up in the break room, and he saw it, took it home to his wife, who promptly mailed it to a colleague that is a proud "I never get the flu vaccine" kind of guy.
It is like people who are proud of being ignorant of science. I never understand why people brag about being ignorant or stupid. You would think they would be embarrassed, but then they are probably a... well, let us just see.
Anyway, he read my short rant and evidently changed his mind about getting the flu vaccine this year. Yippee. So what was the powerful, reasoned essay that altered the course of human (well, maybe one human) history?
I give you, slightly rewritten for 2009, a Budget of Dumb Asses.
I had my flu shot today. Well, my anti-flu shot. Protected me, my family, and my patients from sickness and death for another year. Whew.
I wonder if you are one of those Dumb Asses who do not get the flu shot each year? Yes. Dumb Ass. Big D, big A. You may be allergic to the vaccine, you may have had Guillain Barre, in which case I will cut you some slack. But if you don't have those conditions and you work in health care and you don't get a vaccine for one of the following reasons, you are a dumb ass.
1. The vaccine gives me the flu. Dumb ass. It is a killed vaccine. It cannot give you the influenza. It is impossible to get flu from the influenza vaccine.
2. I never get the flu, so I don't need the vaccine. Irresponsible dumb ass. I have never had a head on collision, but I wear my seat belt. And you probably don't use a condom either. So far you have been lucky, and you are a potential winner of a Darwin Award, although since you don't use a condom, you are unfortunately still in the gene pool.
3. Only old people get the flu. Selfish dumb ass. Influenza can infect anyone, and one of the groups who are more likely to die of influenza are the very young. Often those most at risk for dying from influenza are those least able, due to age or underlying diseases, to respond to the vaccine. You can help prevent your old, sickly Grandmother or your newborn daughter from getting influenza by getting the vaccine, so you do not get flu and pass it one to her. Flu, by the way, is highly contagious, with 20 to 50% of contacts with an index case getting the flu. However, Granny may be sitting on a fortune that will come to you, and killing her off with the flu is a great way to get her out of the way and never be caught. That would make a good episode of CSI.
4. I can prevent influenza or treat it by taking echinacea, vitamin C or airborne. Gullible dumb ass cubed then squared. None of these concoctions has any efficacy what so ever against influenza. They neither prevent nor treat influenza. And you can't boost you immune system either. Immunity is not a Jamba Juice. Anyone who says that the immune system can be boosted is also a dumb ass.
5. Flu isn't all that bad a disease. Underestimating dumb ass. Part of the problem with the term flu is that it is used both as a generic term for damn near any viral illness with a fever and is also used for a severe viral pneumonia. Medical people are just as inaccurate about using the term as the general public. The influenza virus directly and indirectly kills 30,000 people and leads to hospitalization of 200,000 in the US each year. Influenza is a nasty lung illness. And what is stomach 'flu'? No such thing, dumb ass.
6. I am not at risk for flu. Denying dumb ass. If you breathe, you are risk for influenza. Here are the groups of people who should not get the flu vaccine (outside of people with severe adverse reactions to the vaccine): Former President Clinton, who evidently doesn't inhale. And people who want to be safe from zombies. If you don't get the vaccine you do not have to worry about the zombie apocalypse, because zombies eat brains.
7. The vaccine is worse than the disease. Dumb ass AND a wimp. What a combination. Your mother must be proud. Unless you think a sore deltoid for a day is too high a price to pay to prevent two weeks of high fevers, severe muscles aches, and intractable cough.
8. I had the vaccine last year, so I do not need it this year. Uneducated dumb ass. Each year new strains of influenza circulate across the world. Last years vaccine at best provides only partial protection. Every year you need a new shot. And we have a new strain this season, H1N1, so you cannot be a parasite on the immunity of others.
9. The vaccine costs too much. Cheap dumb ass. The vaccine costs less than a funeral, less than Tamiflu, less than a week in the hospital.
10. I received the vaccine and I got the flu anyway. Inexact dumb ass. The vaccine is not perfect and you may have indeed had the flu. More likely you called one of the many colds people get each year the flu. Remember there are hundreds of potential causes of a respiratory infection circulating, the vaccine only covers influenza, the virus most likely to kill you and yours.
11. I don't believe in the flu vaccine. Superstitious, premodern, magical thinking dumb ass. What is there to believe in? Belief is what you do when there is no data. Probably don't believe in gravity or germ theory either. Everyone, I suppose, has to believe in something, and I believe I will have a beer.
12. The government puts tracking nanobots in the vaccine as well as RFID chips as part of the mark of the beast, and the vaccine doesn't work since it is part of a big government sponsored conspiracy to line the pockets of big pharma and inject the American sheeple with exotic new infections in an attempt to control population growth and help usher in a New World Order. Well, that excuse is at least reasonable. Paranoid dumb ass.
So get the vaccine. And pass this url on to someone else. The life you may save may be your own. Or be a dumb ass.
BTW: budget is an archaic term for a quantity of material, usually written. I do love dem dare archaic words, don't cha know.
Mark Crislip
Mark Crislip, MD, has been practicing in infectious diseases in Portland, Oregon, since 1990. He is nobody from nowhere, but he has an enormous ego that leads him to think someone might care about what he has to say about infectious diseases. And so he blogs and podcasts and writes on the most endlessly fascinating specialty in all of medicine.
Mark A. Crislip, MD, has disclosed the following relevant financial relationships: Owner, Pusware LLC. He as not talked to a drug rep in over 25 years and does not even eat the pizza provided at conferences. But he is for sale for the right price. Please. Someone. Buy me.
One woman has a dystonic reaction, big whoop. Chit happens.
Addressing the issue of this vaccine being rushed. They are using the exact same manufacturing techniques they have used for the last 20 years, just with a different strain of the flu. So, unlike seasonal flu vaccines where it may or may not be a good match to the strain that actually circulates, this particular one IS a good match to the one that IS circulating.
Hey by all means, if you want to get the flu, go into work or the store sick and cough on some two year old or someone that's immunodeficient and kill them, knock yourself out :cool:
For those that are worried about the 'chips' I'll give you a pass at least.
ChristisKing
10-22-09, 07:48
I talked to my doctor yesterday about it. He's been my doctor my entire life and now he's my kids doc. That said he said yes get it when you can. He said normally they don't see flu cases until the winter and this thing is showing up real heavey right now. He thinks it could get really bad.
I trust my doctors opinion that said I will get vaccinated. On top of that I care for a 3 month old every day so I have to not get this thing.
Not sure. The wife, who is in the medical profession, said a lot of the chemicals in the vaccine aren't FDA approved and there is evidence piling up that suggest the vaccine is going to put you more at risk than the flu itself.
Agree. Beck had a good show on this.
No one in my family is getting the shot.
C4
True story: a woman who believes in natural treatments comes down with bad bronchitis and gets antibiotics from an MD. Still feel lousy for a couple of days, and resorts to "natural Rx" of drinking urine, all while taking antibiotics. Few days later she recovers from illness and concludes that urine was what cured her...
On a serious note, medical community should take some blame for existence of dudes like this one. If we were absolutely explicit about why we do what we do, what we know and what we don't know, guys like this wouldn't have an audience.
That one tops the cake as the most bizarre new age story I've heard! The closest I have is a hippie artist I know who's work is about natural edible foliage in the North East. I was in NYC during one of her openings upstate so I missed it, but when I came back a friend told me that she was serving some plant but would only let the guests eat one leaf each. So next time I see her I ask her what plant it was. Milkweed (the plant that makes Monarch Butterflies toxic). Turns out she didn't quite trust her hippie dippy understanding of the natural world enough, so her solution to her concern was to only serve one leaf each. I was livid, and the argument lasted well into the night...
A great quote from an anarchist theorist/poet/singer: "No matter how New Age ya get, Old Age gonna come and kick your ass!"
That one tops the cake as the most bizarre new age story I've heard! The closest I have is a hippie artist I know who's work is about natural edible foliage in the North East. I was in NYC during one of her openings upstate so I missed it, but when I came back a friend told me that she was serving some plant but would only let the guests eat one leaf each. So next time I see her I ask her what plant it was. Milkweed (the plant that makes Monarch Butterflies toxic). Turns out she didn't quite trust her hippie dippy understanding of the natural world enough, so her solution to her concern was to only serve one leaf each. I was livid, and the argument lasted well into the night...
Actually true Milkweed (opposing leaves and not spiral/staircase leaves -- meaning opposing stocks versus leaves that come out from the plant in a spiral or staircase fashion) is perfectly safe and edible if you cook it right. Don't quote me on the details as it has been a long time but when I was in boy scouts we had a naturlist hiker expert guy come in and he taught us about edible plants. Milkweed was one of them but it had to be cooked in multiple "waters", ie cook it X minutes in water, dump the water and rinse, repeat Y times (something like 3 times). At that point it is perfectly safe. We ate some.
You can find lots of references to it in many many books. Some people even claim that just boiling it once is enough. Anyway. Back to vaccines.
Agree. Beck had a good show on this.
No one in my family is getting the shot.
C4
Beck, Glenn? That Beck?
Normally I quite like GB, however that particular one was FAIL! Did you take the time to go and check the credentials of "Dr. Holtforf?".
No. We've all already had the pig flu.
In spit of the insatiable urge to root around in the mud, it was just like the regular flu.
Beck, Glenn? That Beck?
Normally I quite like GB, however that particular one was FAIL! Did you take the time to go and check the credentials of "Dr. Holtforf?".
Yep, that Beck. No on the creds. If I had that kind of time, wouldn't have to watch Opinion based news shows. ;)
C4
One must study the science and make the decision for themselves. Short of locking yourself in the saferoom and staying away from other people, it is impossible to stay away from infected persons. If somebody is infected they will be shedding the virus 24-48 hours before they show symptoms.
Take all of the precautions listed. CDC expects at a minimum 30-90k deaths this flu season from the regular and H1-N1 flu viruses CONUS (normal flu season is 30-40k deaths).
Remember the SARS scare a couple of years ago? That killed 10% of those infected. Worst case projections for the H1-N1 is 2% mortality of the US population (that equates to 1.8-2.0 million deaths CONUS.) Not to mention that medical facilities will be overrun with people with the sniffles to being really sick with this and other stuff.
Stay healthy...I'm getting the immunization for me and my family, regardless of what is posted on the error-net.
i dont have a family, so its just myself....
Intentionally inject myself with the crap I'm going to avoid...I don't think so.
Yep, that Beck. No on the creds. If I had that kind of time, wouldn't have to watch Opinion based news shows. ;)
C4
LOL! Touche :cool::D
Actually true Milkweed (opposing leaves and not spiral/staircase leaves -- meaning opposing stocks versus leaves that come out from the plant in a spiral or staircase fashion) is perfectly safe and edible if you cook it right. Don't quote me on the details as it has been a long time but when I was in boy scouts we had a naturlist hiker expert guy come in and he taught us about edible plants. Milkweed was one of them but it had to be cooked in multiple "waters", ie cook it X minutes in water, dump the water and rinse, repeat Y times (something like 3 times). At that point it is perfectly safe. We ate some.
You can find lots of references to it in many many books. Some people even claim that just boiling it once is enough. Anyway. Back to vaccines.
I knew that. But the question is would you eat it yourself if you weren't sure on all of the things you stated? Then to further add to the question would you serve it to others if you weren't sure. My point was more that she was completely unsure, read some new age survival guide, but had no real world experience.
My apologies to the mods I will get back on topic.
I knew that. But the question is would you eat it yourself if you weren't sure on all of the things you stated? Then to further add to the question would you serve it to others if you weren't sure.
I agree with you there!
Worst case projections for the H1-N1 is 2% mortality of the US population (that equates to 1.8-2.0 million deaths CONUS.)
Right now what we're seeing locally is 2% of H1N1-positive patients end up in ICUs. If that remains the same way, then 2% mortality would be a pretty big overestimate.
Right now what we're seeing locally is 2% of H1N1-positive patients end up in ICUs. If that remains the same way, then 2% mortality would be a pretty big overestimate.
I hope so. Maybe with all of the emphasis on prevention and hygiene the numbers will stay low.
UrbanRunner
10-22-09, 22:57
Absolutely, and hopefully my city will pay for it.
RancidSumo
10-22-09, 23:48
Absolutely, and hopefully my city will pay for it.
I hope they don't. It isn't other peoples' duty to pay for your vaccination.
I don't trust the gov't. Especially with who is at the top currently. I don't believe that what they want to inject into my family is in our best interest.
30 cal slut
10-23-09, 08:13
The last time I got the flu shot I got deathly ill and almost was hospitalized.
i wasn't deathly ill, but seriously ill when i got my last flu shot a while ago.
the entire right side of my back and neck (i got the shot in my right arm) went into permanent muscle spasm, and i felt run down and lousy. didn't kick it for a few months!
I agree that the H1N1 "pandemic" has been overblown by the media for a long time now. I'm not in any of the risk categories and use my hand sanitizer dutifully, don't have any immediate plans to get vaccinated, but I have to ask - what exactly is so bad or risky about the vaccine? What (if any) science supports these supposed risks? I've always put anti-vaccine folks into a category just below the people who claim the moon landings were faked, but I'm certainly willing to change my mind if there is real, credible evidence of problems with this vaccine and not speculation.
On a side note, I can tell you anecdotaly that H1N1 is a very real threat for pregnant women and their babies. The hospital where my girlfriend works has lost at least 3 pregnant women in the last couple months with no apparent additional risk factors.
I agree that the H1N1 "pandemic" has been overblown by the media for a long time now. I'm not in any of the risk categories and use my hand sanitizer dutifully, don't have any immediate plans to get vaccinated, but I have to ask - what exactly is so bad or risky about the vaccine? What (if any) science supports these supposed risks? I've always put anti-vaccine folks into a category just below the people who claim the moon landings were faked, but I'm certainly willing to change my mind if there is real, credible evidence of problems with this vaccine and not speculation.
On a side note, I can tell you anecdotaly that H1N1 is a very real threat for pregnant women and their babies. The hospital where my girlfriend works has lost at least 3 pregnant women in the last couple months with no apparent additional risk factors.
I agree with you & I had my wife (pregnant) & infant daughter vaccinated last night. To me, the anti-vaccine crowd are one step away from moonbats who blame 9/11 on our own governement (i.e. - Czar Van Jones). I am glad my family is protected (except me of course - I'll just stick to hand sanitizer until the shot is available for me).
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-23-09, 11:06
I agree that the H1N1 "pandemic" has been overblown by the media for a long time now. I'm not in any of the risk categories and use my hand sanitizer dutifully, don't have any immediate plans to get vaccinated, but I have to ask - what exactly is so bad or risky about the vaccine? What (if any) science supports these supposed risks? I've always put anti-vaccine folks into a category just below the people who claim the moon landings were faked, but I'm certainly willing to change my mind if there is real, credible evidence of problems with this vaccine and not speculation.
On a side note, I can tell you anecdotaly that H1N1 is a very real threat for pregnant women and their babies. The hospital where my girlfriend works has lost at least 3 pregnant women in the last couple months with no apparent additional risk factors.
I think it is a larger symptom of the fact that easy to fix and understand problems have been old-hat for half a century. Issues now are a lot more multi-variable and not more clear cut. Experts in fields don't know everything about their discipline. Does Thimerisol cause Autism, no. Could it, along with other things cause autism, maybe. There are a whole lot of 'maybes' out there and not nearly the resources to run them all down. 'Maybes' become doctrine for some people, especially when large powerful organizations are on place.
I work in health care, here is an update for those that are going to vaccinate.
I received this fax this morning from the Texas Deparment of State Health Services regarding the H1N1.
________________________________________________________________
As you know the vaccine supply allotted to Texas in early October was much less than anticipated. The amount the entire state of Texas has received was not enough to inoculate half of Montgomery County. Texas is still following the recommendations of the CDC on immunization pregnant women and 24-59 month olds, 5-18 year olds and health care workers, however the amount of vaccine is limited. They are stating that only small quantities of the vaccine were sent to the local county health departments. They also state the vaccine supplied over the next few weeks will continue to focus on the CDC recommendation group (above) and based on current projections, they do not expect sufficient quantities of vaccine for the general public until December or later.
Steelblitz
10-23-09, 11:38
My wife, who's a nurse, got the shot. Our children will be getting free injections at school soon. This flu is running rampant in my rural area and it's in their school already. Myself, I'll pass just because I have rotten luck with flu shots. I let my wife make the family call on these issues. She's seen some otherwise healthy people taken down hard with this flu that otherwise typically don't get so severely ill.
UrbanRunner
10-23-09, 21:30
I hope they don't. It isn't other peoples' duty to pay for your vaccination.
I'm not sure I agree with that. After all, they have paid for Hep A and B vaccines and even provide things such as my ballistic vest. I think they figure its a good way to protect their investment and keep me and my co-workers on the job.
Nope, I will not be getting it.
UrbanRunner
10-25-09, 21:12
I remember many years ago a great class by a retired PA State Trooper on why we should wear seat belts. First he went through the moment by moment crash analysis of a trooper who had died in a crash. The lethal blow had come well down the sequence of events and would never have happened had he been wearing his seat-belt. He followed this with a discussion about how your decision effects not just you but many others and recounted making death notification visits to parents following crashes where their unseat belted child had died and its long term effect on the surviving family.
So with the H1N1 vaccine a persons decision not to protect themselves can have long term impacts on others besides themselves. But you know, sometimes life is like that. If someone decides to roll the dice, take the risk and not be immunized I don't think they should be forced to do so. Even though their decision effects others beyond themselves. It just frees up that vaccine for another person.
However, if someone is offered the H1N1 vaccine and refuses it for no exceptional reason (such as could not afford it, missed the immunization time due to work, etc). I mean, if for no other reason than due to their own conduct they did not get immunized. Then I think they just pulled the Darwin switch and they just may end up removing themselves from the gene pool. If after refusing the vaccine due to their own conduct (similar to a line of duty / conduct investigation in the military) then no medical care, insurance payment (medical or life), emergency response, not even an unattended death investigation, etc. should be made due to subsequent H1N1 infection. I mean even if they're independently wealthy they should not be provided ventilation, medication, nothing. All of that should be reserved for those who elected to remain in the gene pool.
Pretty harsh, maybe, but Darwin and life is like that...
Alpha Sierra
10-25-09, 21:25
I remember many years ago a great class by a retired PA State Trooper on why we should wear seat belts. First he went through the moment by moment crash analysis of a trooper who had died in a crash. The lethal blow had come well down the sequence of events and would never have happened had he been wearing his seat-belt. He followed this with a discussion about how your decision effects not just you but many others and recounted making death notification visits to parents following crashes where their unseat belted child had died and its long term effect on the surviving family.
So with the H1N1 vaccine a persons decision not to protect themselves can have long term impacts on others besides themselves. But you know, sometimes life is like that. If someone decides to roll the dice, take the risk and not be immunized I don't think they should be forced to do so. Even though their decision effects others beyond themselves. It just frees up that vaccine for another person.
However, if someone is offered the H1N1 vaccine and refuses it for no exceptional reason (such as could not afford it, missed the immunization time due to work, etc). I mean, if for no other reason than due to their own conduct they did not get immunized. Then I think they just pulled the Darwin switch and they just may end up removing themselves from the gene pool. If after refusing the vaccine due to their own conduct (similar to a line of duty / conduct investigation in the military) then no medical care, insurance payment (medical or life), emergency response, not even an unattended death investigation, etc. should be made due to subsequent H1N1 infection. I mean even if they're independently wealthy they should not be provided ventilation, medication, nothing. All of that should be reserved for those who elected to remain in the gene pool.
Pretty harsh, maybe, but Darwin and life is like that...
Since I pay for my health care I will get my health care when I get the flu (swine or otherwise), whether or not I get vaccinated.
I pay for a service, I am damn well going to use it when I need it. Who are you to tell ME otherwise?
You may do so when you pay my health insurance permiums. Until then, STFU.
And no, not only I am not getting the H1N1 vaccine, I am not allowing anyone in my family to do so either.
I agree that the H1N1 "pandemic" has been overblown by the media for a long time now. I'm not in any of the risk categories and use my hand sanitizer dutifully, don't have any immediate plans to get vaccinated, but I have to ask - what exactly is so bad or risky about the vaccine? What (if any) science supports these supposed risks? I've always put anti-vaccine folks into a category just below the people who claim the moon landings were faked, but I'm certainly willing to change my mind if there is real, credible evidence of problems with this vaccine and not speculation.
Has there not been deaths directly tied to the vaccinations for H1N1?
-B
UrbanRunner
10-25-09, 21:35
Since I pay for my health care I will get my health care when I get the flu (swine or otherwise), whether or not I get vaccinated.
I pay for a service, I am damn well going to use it when I need it. Who are you to tell ME otherwise?
You may do so when you pay my health insurance permiums. Until then, STFU.
And no, not only I am not getting the H1N1 vaccine, I am not allowing anyone in my family to do so either.
If your paying health insurance premiums you are NOT paying the full cost of your medical care. The cost is spread out among those that pay premiums but don't collect benefits. AND you still use personnel time and supplies that could be have been used for those who took precautions even if you did pay the full cost. My opinion stands. But I'm not in charge so people who behave recklessly unfortunately will require the rest of us to pay.
I just have to ask...Did you not see any correlation there?
Ahh the old 'correlation equals causation argument'.
Last time it was raining hard here I saw a lot of people carrying umbrellas. Ergo, umbrellas cause rainfall :cool:
variablebinary
10-26-09, 05:27
No, I never get flu shots, and I am not going to partake of them now either
My only concern is my 11 month old, but I dont trust the shot enough to allow that shit to be injected in his little body
but I have to ask - what exactly is so bad or risky about the vaccine?
In short, nothing. Unless you are allergic to eggs, or have had GBS in the past.
To whit:
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/48f9db861d8a83f764792aa4b77990f8-29.html#unique-entry-id-29
Now a lot of people will point to what happened in 1976 and say 'but but but'. Fact is, nobody knows why 500 people got GBS in 1976 (that's a rate of 1 in 100000 btw) It didn't happen before 76, nor has it happened since.
There is a lot of flat out bad information is this thread. I would suggest the following.
www.virology.ws
www.tviw.tv
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
and http://www.quackcast.com
I have seen a LOT of people I know personally getting severly ill from the Flu in the last month. A lot.
This years vax is manufactured exactly the same way its been manufactured for the last 20 years, only the strain is different. In fact since they know what the strain IS and don't have to guess like the do with seasonal flu, the rate of efficacy should be higher. Its a good match to the circulating strain.
Several people raised questions earlier in the thread along the lines of 'how do you KNOW that it was the new H1N1' (in the absence of serological testing). Two things:
1. its way to early in the year for an outbreak of Seasonal Influenza
2. for the the people that have popped positive on a rapid test for Influenza A (H1N1 is the A subtype) that HAVE had serological testing done, around 95 percent of those tests have come back on PCR analysis as the new strain. So, if you get TRUE influenza this time of year, odds are highly likely that its the new strain.
I'd also like to point something out about the rapid test. Namely that its not very sensitive. What does that mean in actual practice? It means that if you test positive that you have the flu. It also means that if you test NEGATIVE, it does NOT mean that you do NOT have the flu. You can't draw any firm conclusion from a negative Rapid Test. It's a blunt instrument. The higher your viral load count the better it works, but a negative means nothing. At that point you have to rely on clinical judgement to decide if its really influenza or not, and perhaps subsequent PCR analysis.
BTW, Thimerosol is ethyl-mercury not METHYL mercury and Jenny McCarthy and Oprah aren't scientists. Well, at least Oprah isn't :cool:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1
Alpha Sierra
10-26-09, 05:50
If your paying health insurance premiums you are NOT paying the full cost of your medical care. The cost is spread out among those that pay premiums but don't collect benefits. AND you still use personnel time and supplies that could be have been used for those who took precautions even if you did pay the full cost. My opinion stands. But I'm not in charge so people who behave recklessly unfortunately will require the rest of us to pay.
So what else about my life do you feel like controlling?
It is one thing for me to not get one, but not getting it for someone I am responsible for that is in the at risk group is irresponsible. I would hate to be a parent and have their child die, knowing they didnt get them the shot.
I stopped getting the regular flu shot because I felt like hell after it, and right now I count on my body being able to deal with getting the flu. If I was old, young, or had some disorder I would get it everytime.
I really dont know if vaccines works but I know I have not gotten measles, mumps, polio, or what ever other vaccines I got when I was a kid.
No, I never get flu shots, and I am not going to partake of them now either
My only concern is my 11 month old, but I dont trust the shot enough to allow that shit to be injected in his little body
Let me guess, you never got the flu shot and have never got the flu, therefore ergo?
On the other side of the 'equation' my aunt has got the flu shot for the last 25 years and never got the flu. Nor did she get GBS, autism, retardation, the scabies, or suffer any other adverse effects. But I digress :cool:
What exactly do those two examples tell us about the efficacy and utility of the flu vaccine? Nothing.
What exactly are you concerns about your 11 year old? I am curious.
parishioner
10-26-09, 06:17
Ahh the old 'correlation equals causation argument'.
Last time it was raining hard here I saw a lot of people carrying umbrellas. Ergo, umbrellas cause rainfall :cool:
First of all, I will admit that I made those comment on an emotional premise and not a logical one. I know that a sample of one can not make a definite conclusion. As for the correlation bit, I know I made it sound like the vaccine caused his illness and I know that is wrong but technically I never indicated the strength of the correlation. It could be weak or non existent which also doesn't mean there isn't a relationship at all. Who knows. There could be other variables that played into his situation that lead to his illness as well.
Also an error in the manufacturing process could have lead to improper inactivation of the virus which can result in a vaccine with infectious particles. This may have happened.
from first hand experience, I can tell you that the H1N1 flu really suxs. My wife is an RN and she received her shot; the other 6 of us in the house did not. She still got the full blown case along with the rest of us. Our 3 youngest are finally healthy enough to return to school but i'm having some concerns about that. They may be healthy (24 hours of no fever............also not using any fever reducing medication), but 4 of us in the house are still going through it, and I'm concerned about them possibly carrying the bug. From what we've read and heard from the doctor, if they pass that "24 hour" test, then they are okay. I have to go all the way back to the Philippines to remember a time when I felt this miserable.
hit the liquids hard, alternate tylenol and ibuprofen, sleep as much as possible, and don't watch the clock. Popsicles....lots and lots of popsicles. The only consolation is that now we've had it, supposedly we're immune for the rest of this year.
A question for the pro-flu shot people.
I believe vaccines work. I also think that the human body can adapt better by actually being exposed to something that has so many variations per year that science now can not keep up with.
Isnt it possible that the flu becomes stronger/mutates due to poorly made vaccines, improper distribution, and any other failure of the medical community?
Just like improper use of anti-biotics have caused mutations that are immune to drugs.
First of all, I will admit that I made those comment on an emotional premise and not a logical one. I know that a sample of one can not make a definite conclusion. As for the correlation bit, I know I made it sound like the vaccine caused his illness and I know that is wrong but technically I never indicated the strength of the correlation. It could be weak or non existent which also doesn't mean there isn't a relationship at all. Who knows. There could be other variables that played into his situation that lead to his illness as well.
Also an error in the manufacturing process could have lead to improper inactivation of the virus which can result in a vaccine with infectious particles. This may have happened.
Good discussion.
You mention that 'there could be other variables that played into his situation'.
The major one that I can think of off the top of my head is this: it takes two weeks to get an adequate antibody response after receiving the shot. I don't think doctors 1.) either do a good job of explaining this to patients 2.) some of them are just too dumb to to know how the vax works.
So, scenario then: you get a flu shot. Two days later you are exposed unbeknownst to you. You get the flu. Based upon a temporal association (damn I just got the flu shot and now I have the FLU) you wrongly conclude it was the shot.
I also think that the human body can adapt better by actually being exposed to something that has so many variations per year that science now can not keep up with.
If that was the case, nobody would get the common cold either. There are over a 100 different viruses that cause the 'cold'. If your immune system was capable of adapting as you posit, the common cold would be a thing of the past.
I certainly wouldn't want to try that experiment with Polio, Ebola, or Smallpox.
I certainly wouldn't want to try that experiment with Polio, Ebola, or Smallpox.
Not to shit on this experiment that you would not try, but there was a time when there was no polio vaccine, no small pox vaccine, and there is nothing for ebola even now. Humans lived through all of them and are still living through them, the black plague is still here people still get it but since it is not in the news it obviously stopped 100 years ago.
Not to shit on this experiment that you would not try, but there was a time when there was no polio vaccine, no small pox vaccine, and there is nothing for ebola even now. Humans lived through all of them...
And many, many people died from them. Exactly what is your point?
team_brock
10-26-09, 11:17
I have a tough time taking something for something I don't have, if you know what I mean.
ps - In the health community, they have been told to report every case of the "flu" as "Swine flu," possible making it a "national epidemic?"
I have a tough time taking something for something I don't have, if you know what I mean.
While many don't realize this, taking blood pressure pills or cholesterol pills are two most common examples of taking something for something one doesn't have. It is not much different in concept than vaccine, and millions of people do it. It is called preventative medicine.
ps - In the health community, they have been told to report every case of the "flu" as "Swine flu," possible making it a "national epidemic?"
This is nonsense. We report cases confirmed by testing, not on a basis of flu-like symptoms. This is a transparent data, and epidemics definition wouldn't hold water unless it is proven by tests. So far, there has been about one thousand confirmed cases in Utah alone, and it is not even a peak of flu season, and we don't even test everybody.
What exactly are you concerns about your 11 year old? I am curious.
He said 11 MONTH old
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-26-09, 12:22
Not to shit on this experiment that you would not try, but there was a time when there was no polio vaccine, no small pox vaccine, and there is nothing for ebola even now. Humans lived through all of them and are still living through them, the black plague is still here people still get it but since it is not in the news it obviously stopped 100 years ago.
Ebola is a pain to transmit and kills too quickly and efficiently. Small pox is gone, unless someone does something stupid, and Polio is almost gone. Go to an old folks home and ask them about Polio.
I have a tough time taking something for something I don't have, if you know what I mean.
ps - In the health community, they have been told to report every case of the "flu" as "Swine flu," possible making it a "national epidemic?"
Are you sure that they are told to treat every case like H1N1, or report it as such?
My family and I are all healthy. My wife and I decided we would skip the vaccine and take our chances.
spamsammich
10-26-09, 12:37
He said 11 MONTH old
If thimerosal is the big concern, vaccines have been available in a preservative/thimerosal free formulation for several years now and according to my epidemiologist friend at a local hospital, vaccines administered to infants in the U. S. are thimerosal free. She told me that as of last week, 60% of the kids recently admitted for inpatient care have H1N1 flu. Scary stuff.
I travel all over creation and my japanese customers have expressed concern over my immunization status. They've all but requested that I get immunized before my next trip over, I've got no problem with being immunized.
edit: I forgot to mention that the kids admitted were tested with PCR to confirm the presence of H1N1.
spamsammich
10-26-09, 13:10
Wife's ob is pushing seasonal and h1n1 shot on my pregnant wife....... Not sure yet.
Whatever you decide, please make sure it is a well informed decision based on facts from credible sources. And certainly continue to consult with the OB. These aren't trivial decisions by any means.
While many don't realize this, taking blood pressure pills or cholesterol pills are two most common examples of taking something for something one doesn't have. It is not much different in concept than vaccine, and millions of people do it. It is called preventative medicine.
This is nonsense. We report cases confirmed by testing, not on a basis of flu-like symptoms. This is a transparent data, and epidemics definition wouldn't hold water unless it is proven by tests. So far, there has been about one thousand confirmed cases in Utah alone, and it is not even a peak of flu season, and we don't even test everybody.
YVK, so to your thinking would it be fair to say there is a bias towards underreporting then? Not everyone that gets sick even goes to the doc, much less gets tested.
e-guns, my bad sorry 11 MONTH old.
Wife's ob is pushing seasonal and h1n1 shot on my pregnant wife....... Not sure yet.
I wouldn't think too hard on that one - H1N1 is a killer for otherwise healthy pregnant women.
Has there not been deaths directly tied to the vaccinations for H1N1?
-B
I don't know - have there been any? Do they exceed the rate of deaths for vaccinations in general? What is the rate of these deaths compared to the mortality for the disease itself?
Wife's ob is pushing seasonal and h1n1 shot on my pregnant wife....... Not sure yet.
If somehow it were up to me, I would not allow a pregnant woman to get the shot. You know I am no doctor, but considering everything historical related to vaccinations, I'd pass.
Too many questions, too few answers. And to me the risk would outweigh the benefit. Except for the Polio vaccine, I say if it's not broken, don't fix it.
Congratulations on the baby. Hope all goes well my friend.
"It's been made the same way for 20 years"...Arent we just discovering that acetamitophin can cause liver damage after 60 years on the market?
We're not exaclty talking about polio.I suppose some more condescending flogging might change my mind on the risk/reward here(1000 deaths since Jan?).
I'm personally seeing little of either...Which tends to make me lean away from annual injections(which may or may not offer some protection from the current form of the virus).
Outlander Systems
10-26-09, 17:56
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125648831388306547.html
"The FDA issued a so-called emergency use authorization late Friday that allows doctors to use peramivir, which is delivered intravenously, in certain hospitalized adult and pediatric patients with confirmed or suspected H1N1 influenza."
spamsammich
10-26-09, 18:22
...Arent we just discovering that acetamitophin can cause liver damage after 60 years on the market?.
This is NOT anything new, the recent scare is just to try and further protect stupid people from themselves. This is also an apples to oranges comparison that I don't think is relevant to this thread.
I'm active duty so I don't have a choice but to get vaccinated. I guess I could just get the hook up.
If somehow it were up to me, I would not allow a pregnant woman to get the shot. You know I am no doctor, but considering everything historical related to vaccinations, I'd pass.
There are at least three dead pregnant women from the hospital where my significant other works who would disagree strongly on that. If they were still alive.
"It's been made the same way for 20 years"...Arent we just discovering that acetamitophin can cause liver damage after 60 years on the market?
No, that is very old news and also a non-issue except when you take large doses that you shouldn't be taking in the first place.
YVK, so to your thinking would it be fair to say there is a bias towards underreporting then? Not everyone that gets sick even goes to the doc, much less gets tested.
Yes. Under-estimation is very common with viral illnesses, where most people recover on their own and don't seek medical health. There are special tools and calculations that epidemiologists use to estimate incidence of disease, but it is almost always just an estimate.
Yes. Under-estimation is very common with viral illnesses, where most people recover on their own and don't seek medical health. There are special tools and calculations that epidemiologists use to estimate incidence of disease, but it is almost always just an estimate.
I've read some of those papers. Exciting stuff.... and cheaper than Valium too :cool: Papers on estimating attack rates too.
Outlander Systems
10-27-09, 08:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpLdc4vMpFY
Outlander Systems
10-27-09, 09:50
From The Health Ranger:
"Step 1) Loudly proclaim your vaccines are backed by "science," but when critics ask you to produce that science, just tell them you don't have to because "everybody knows they work." (Then grunt and paw at the air from time to time for effect...)
Step 2) Practice scoffing. Scoffing is an important skill for swine flu vaccine zealots. When someone asks an intelligent question like, "Where are the placebo-controlled studies that show flu vaccines work at all?" simply scoff at them. This avoids having to answer the question because, as you know, there are no such studies.
Step 3) Practice making people feel guilty for not getting the flu shot. Blame them for pandemic. Just ignore the fact that the shot itself has zero ability to actually prevent the spread of influenza and focus on what works: Guilt!
Step 4) Spread more fear! Guilt and fear go together like peanut butter and jelly on processed white bread -- a favorite zombie food! In combination, they work like gangbusters if you're trying to scare up some vaccine sales to generate billions of dollars in profits for the drug companies. In the absence of any actual science, just invoke fear! (Hey, it worked for the Patriot Act, too...)
Step 5) Remind people that they are not doctors and therefore don't know anything. Then quote some doctor who's pro-vaccine (and probably taking kickbacks from some pharmaceutical company that's been caught committing a felony crime) and declare that no one can question them because they're a doctor. Doctors are God, didn't you know? Just ask all the victims of thalidomide... or Vioxx.
Step 6) Strip off the plastic coating on both ends of an extension cord, exposing the wires. Attach the two wires on one end to the temples of your skull, then attach the two exposed wires on the other end to the exposed slots of a live electrical outlet in your home. You are now "WIRED." (Want a free subscription?) This process will destroy any critical thinking regions of your cerebrum, disabling the annoying ability to think for yourself (which can interfere with what the vaccine industry wants you to think instead). Once achieved, you're half-way qualified to being a vaccine zealot, unhindered by critical thinking skills!
(Don't forget to grunt, moan and leave your mouth draping open from time to time, or the whole effect will be ruined...)
Step 7) Defend mercury as safe. It's not that bad, really. What's a little mercury in your shot anyway? Ignore these inconvenient facts: A typical flu vaccine shot solution is 50,000 parts per billion of mercury. The EPA classifies any substance with more than 200 parts per billion as hazardous waste. (The EPA limit in drinking water is 2 parts per billion.) Thus, the mercury density in a vaccine is 25,000% higher than the level required to be considered hazardous waste. This is injected directly into the bloodstream of infants, children, expectant mothers and senior citizens. What could possibly be dangerous about that?"
Nein! No shots for me or my ohana!
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-27-09, 11:39
I really hope we don't lose some good people because they are blinded by some anti-corporate, anti-obama, anti-science video they saw on youtube. While the H1N1 is no airborne HIV, it has and is going to kill some special people. If you want to forgo the advantages of living in a sophisticated western society, have at. Hope your kids don't pay the price.
Gutshot John
10-27-09, 12:22
The way vaccination works it's still quite possible to get the virus. The difference usually is whether it makes you really sick or just a few sniffles.
Concerns about the vaccine's safety are legitimate but when viewed by the totality of evidence and statistical probabilities you're far better off getting the vaccine.
The main problem is the availability of the vaccine not whether to get it or not.
I understand how some people may be jaded by history but it is a bona-fide health concern.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-27-09, 12:39
The main problem is the availability of the vaccine not whether to get it or not.
I'm surprised that more hasn't been made of this. The lack of bodies in the streets and questions about the virus and vaccine have kept people from demanding it. We were supossed to have 120 million doses by now and there are something like 11 million actual doses. So much for corporate greed.
Outlander Systems
10-27-09, 12:44
I don't believe in the Boogeyman.
Part of the benefits of living in a modern western society is the ability to make decisions based on research and other valid information. What I've been able to glean so far from the H1N1 vaccine is: People who have the vaccine still get the virus at an interesting rate, it's a relatively new development, there are no long term statistics on the effectiveness and/or side effects. etc. Another benefit is being smart enough to separate a fear campaign and the truth. I'm still educating myself, personally but I'm not about to jump in either camp based on a youtube video, the president, or other propaganda.
If you are seeing that people are still getting the sickness that is interesting. One thing that we talked about recently at my parents was how quickly this vaccine was created and distributed. For the majority of the scientists in the room, this was the most impressive part of the global reaction to H1N1, but none of them were under any illusions as to if it would be perfect.
As you've pointed out, time is the only factor that is going to bring complete truth to this new strain of the flu.
From The Health Ranger:
"Step 1) Loudly proclaim your vaccines are backed by "science," but when critics ask you to produce that science, just tell them you don't have to because "everybody knows they work." (Then grunt and paw at the air from time to time for effect...)
Step 2) ... When someone asks an intelligent question like, "Where are the placebo-controlled studies that show flu vaccines work at all?" simply scoff at them. This avoids having to answer the question because, as you know, there are no such studies.
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in health care professionals: a randomized trial.
AU Wilde JA; McMillan JA; Serwint J; Butta J; O'Riordan MA; Steinhoff MC
SO JAMA 1999 Mar 10;281(10):908-13.
This one is a randomized blinded placebo-controlled trial done over a period of three years, i.e three different flu seasons.
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.
AU Jefferson TO; Rivetti D; Di Pietrantonj C; Rivetti A; Demicheli V
SO Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007 Apr 18;(2):CD001269.
This one is a meta-analysis of 15 randomized trials. Cochrane database is widely regarded as one of the best depositories of evidence-based medicine. It is an independent entity that performs systematic reviews of trials, and in that it is not financially or institutionally related to each and every trial conducted.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is encouraged to stand by their convictions, but perpetuating lies about lack of data is not cool.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-27-09, 13:48
Step 7) Defend mercury as safe. It's not that bad, really. What's a little mercury in your shot anyway? Ignore these inconvenient facts: A typical flu vaccine shot solution is 50,000 parts per billion of mercury. The EPA classifies any substance with more than 200 parts per billion as hazardous waste. (The EPA limit in drinking water is 2 parts per billion.) Thus, the mercury density in a vaccine is 25,000% higher than the level required to be considered hazardous waste. This is injected directly into the bloodstream of infants, children, expectant mothers and senior citizens. What could possibly be dangerous about that?" [/I]
You also in one day ingest about 6000 times more water than vaccine. So you get to drink water for the rest of the week, and then no more for you!
Vitamins almost always would be considered hazardous due to the metals in them.
I find the last sentence interesting since it is often used in some form in these arguments. Put out some facts, which may be apple and oranges, and then just throw it all up in the air and viola 'conspiracy' or evil of some sort. It kind of has to be done, because if you implied that all these people were actively trying to poison people, you'd sound like a quack.
Who killed 'ergo' and turned everything into something that just pops up like an 'eggo' waffle? I guess it is just a symptom of the fact that the internet has made data and information gathering easy (and largely unverifiable) but we haven't had a parallel increase in processing capability.
I don't see H1N1 as that large of a threat, but I sure see less of a threat from the vaccines, so if offered I'll take it. I see this mainly as a run up for a pandemic with a real bite. I hope those of us that get the H1N1 are at the front of the line for that vaccine.
Outlander Systems
10-27-09, 14:25
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in health care professionals: a randomized trial.
AU Wilde JA; McMillan JA; Serwint J; Butta J; O'Riordan MA; Steinhoff MC
SO JAMA 1999 Mar 10;281(10):908-13.
This one is a randomized blinded placebo-controlled trial done over a period of three years, i.e three different flu seasons.
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.
AU Jefferson TO; Rivetti D; Di Pietrantonj C; Rivetti A; Demicheli V
SO Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2007 Apr 18;(2):CD001269.
This one is a meta-analysis of 15 randomized trials. Cochrane database is widely regarded as one of the best depositories of evidence-based medicine. It is an independent entity that performs systematic reviews of trials, and in that it is not financially or institutionally related to each and every trial conducted.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is encouraged to stand by their convictions, but perpetuating lies about lack of data is not cool.
Wait, they've been doing clinical studies of the swine flu vaccine for three years!?
Wait, they've been doing clinical studies of the swine flu vaccine for three years!?
No they didn't because clinical studies are generally done on influenza strains prevalent during given year, and H1N1 wasn't prevalent until this year.
Your own post, however, is very clear in it's denial of good-quality scientific evidence for ANY influenza vaccination. In fact, "Step 1" appears to question ALL vaccines.
From The Health Ranger:
"Step 1) Loudly proclaim your vaccines are backed by "science," but when critics ask you to produce that science, just tell them you don't have to because "everybody knows they work." (Then grunt and paw at the air from time to time for effect...)
Step 2) .. When someone asks an intelligent question like, "Where are the placebo-controlled studies that show flu vaccines work at all?" simply scoff at them. This avoids having to answer the question because, as you know, there are no such studies.
You made a general statement about influenza vaccination and you were directed to data showing that you are wrong.
Unless H1N1 persists for several years, we won't have a randomized study. If it does persist, we probably will. Untill then, you can rely on statements from "Health Ranger", or you can rely on a good-quality scientific data that has proven an efficacy of vaccination against variety of different strains of same virus.
You've made your choice, I've made mine, and my arm hurts a bit.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-27-09, 16:45
Wait, they've been doing clinical studies of the swine flu vaccine for three years!?
Have you read your sig line lately????
I'll pass thank you.
None for me and my family.
Alpha Sierra
10-27-09, 18:36
Whatever you decide, please make sure it is a well informed decision based on facts from credible sources. And certainly continue to consult with the OB. These aren't trivial decisions by any means.
This IS a trivial decision.
SO far this year just over 1K people have died (I don't care about the rest of the world) from H1N1. Almost that many die EVERY WEEK in auto accidents.
This is a non-issue. There is nothing to consider.
This IS a trivial decision.
SO far this year just over 1K people have died (I don't care about the rest of the world) from H1N1. Almost that many die EVERY WEEK in auto accidents.
This is a non-issue. There is nothing to consider.
So with your logic then since so many die every week in auto accidents we shouldn't wear our seat belts right?
RancidSumo
10-27-09, 19:50
To all of you who seem like you know what you are talking about with vaccines, what do you know about "herd immunization"? In other words, the need to vaccinate the majority of the population in order for it to be effective.
To all of you who seem like you know what you are talking about with vaccines, what do you know about "herd immunization"? In other words, the need to vaccinate the majority of the population in order for it to be effective.
Have you actually read this thread or just jumped in when you see someone saying something you don't agree with? I'm curious who the people your talking about are, as I have found from reading this thread that there are some very educated and experienced people in regards to this subject on this forum.
I haven't been vaccinated, and I wont be. But I at least am making an attempt to understand the political, and physical realities of what this pandemic means to the future of our nation, and our species.
As for your question, yes I am aware of what you are talking about, but I think it applies more to when a nation is trying to kill off a certain pathogen like small pox. Since seasonal flu mutates annually the idea of eliminating it is not a possibility, so the vaccine doesn't function in the way you are thinking. Rather it is used for individuals to attempt to limit their chances of contracting the flu. Every year it needs to be updated to address this. You could force the flu vaccine down the throat (or in the arm) of every person in the world, and there would still be flu next year.
To all of you who seem like you know what you are talking about with vaccines, what do you know about "herd immunization"? In other words, the need to vaccinate the majority of the population in order for it to be effective.
Actually, you've got it a bit wrong. The concept of herd immunity or immunization is that you do not need to vaccinate all of population to stop spread of epidemics. You need to vaccinate majority or critical mass to decrease incidence and rates of exposure, and, by having large portion of population immune to virus, the entire population benefits from vaccination.
This concept, obviously, has nothing to do with effectiveness or risks/benefits of vaccination in a given individual.
no flu shots for me, ever. Not paranoid about them, but dont want them either. Havent had the flu in many years, knock on wood.
So with your logic then since so many die every week in auto accidents we shouldn't wear our seat belts right?
How did you get that?
RancidSumo
10-28-09, 01:35
Thank you YVK. It is a subject that has come up while discussing the November/December LD resolution (Public health concerns justify compulsory immunization)
@ post 194,
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. I was asking a question to a group of people that seem to know a lot on the subject.
How did you get that?
If someone is basing his/her decision to not use a vaccine off of the number of fatalities caused vs. some other risk, and the vaccine could be considered a safety measure one could employ in order to not die from H1N1, then all we have to do to come to my above conclusion is to find something that kills more people a week then auto accidents and use it in an argument to not wear a seat belt. Especially when one considers that people still die while wearing seat belts.
People aren't harmed by simply wearing a seat belt, however. This is the concern with the vaccine. Comparison is.... shaky.
Unless you have a nipple ring and your off roading... ;)
My point is not about "my point" it's more about comparing oranges to apples when it comes to using the statistics of a non related fatality rate to that of H1N1. I think the better comparison in this case would be the number of deaths that the NORMAL flu has OUT OF FLU SEASON. Then we can compare the rates of H1N1 deaths under a similar time frame, and start to understand why people have been worried about H1N1 from the get go.
It's not because it is more or less deadly then say a nuclear bomb, or a car accident. It's because it is an unknown factor at this point. One that is potentially preventable (yet to be seen), and also one that is potentially out of control. The reactions of the WHO, Obama, CDC ext are on par with what you should expect from these organizations when it comes to potential global outbreaks. Will H1N1 be the herald of the second coming of certain people's savior? The plague to end all plagues? Doubt it. But that doesn't change the fact that people are paid to prevent the spread of pathogens, and they use a lot of data and science to perfect what they do. Their reaction to H1N1 deserves some credit for how prompt it was, but calls to question a lot of factors regarding quality of the vaccine, relationship with the public regarding education, and so on.
One thing is for sure on my end! I am glad that the WHO and CDC are using what has become a relatively mild outbreak to further their collection on data and protocol in order to understand how to contain potentially more lethal outbreaks in the future.
Wait, they've been doing clinical studies of the swine flu vaccine for three years!?
Gah.
When you KNOW the vax is a good match to the circulating strain (and not just the best guess like we have to do with seasonal vax) you know that efficacy will be high. The current
H1N1 specific vax is NO different than the last seasonal 20 flu shots, EXCEPT its KNOWN to be a good match to the circulating strain.
The vax has been demonstrated in studies to generate antibodies against H1N1 in sufficient levels to prevent infection. That's the strain that is circulating right now. If anything it will be MORE effective than seasonal vax, due to the good match.
Good review of the ahem 'data' supporting the use of Flu Vax, for those who's PUBMED or EMBASE kung-fu isn't very good, including a discussion of 'herd immunity':
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/3839f3b631ec8ccd66e2093d4cf96f6c-34.html
I am in the Navy so I will likley have no choice about it.
woodandsteel
11-02-09, 16:31
My wife has been dragging me and the kids in for the regular flu shot for that last several years. I am always down for about a week after the shot.
My wife and I both agree that we will not get the H1N1 vacination this year. There are just too many unknowns out there. This decision is not an easy one. My wife is pregnant, and pregnant women are in the high risk group. but, we talked with our doctor and she said that she doesn't blame us for not getting the shot. She only suggests that we come into her office at the first sign of the flu, for tamiflu
Well, I need to change my vote. My wife went in for a prenatal appointment today and came out with the H1N1 vaccination. I was quite surprised to hear this. Since she was the one who talked me out of the vaccination. :confused:
Outlander Systems
11-02-09, 22:43
Does the plot thicken?
http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/20090010962/fulltext.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
11-02-09, 22:59
Does the plot thicken?
http://www.patentstorm.us/applications/20090010962/fulltext.html
What are you implying? That the test materials from the patent got out of hand and caused the swine flu, or that they developed the cure and then put the virus out there?
Swine flu is nothing new.
With out knowing the exact details, I assume that the St. Judes and Mt. Sinai did research with Fed money, so the Ag Dept. owns the intellectual property?
In RI we've had two children die (supposedly) from H1N1 in the past week. My coworker in CA has lost two of her college classmates to H1N1 both healthy young women. My kid is getting the shot. I have two physicians and one biological scientist in my circle of friends. All three said get the shot for the kid. I was originally against getting it for my son, not anymore as the reality of death is much greater than the potential side effects from the vaccine. A strictly personal decision but not one to take lightly as the H1N1 is no regular flu.
We always get the the regular one. However, this year two of my kids got the H1N1 (they won't need it). My self I as a world traveler (orient western hemi, euor countries) for work I will say yes. As the famous blues song said " and the common cold can kill ya"
Outlander Systems
11-03-09, 14:40
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2603/4052849920_151eb84599_b.jpg
Alpha Sierra
11-03-09, 17:47
So with your logic then since so many die every week in auto accidents we shouldn't wear our seat belts right?
Don't put words in my mouth.
The risk of dying from this flu is infinitessimal compared to other infinitessimally small risks in life.
Don't put words in my mouth.
The risk of dying from this flu is infinitessimal compared to other infinitessimally small risks in life.
Actually, the latest I'm hearing from the county is that 0.25% to 0.5% of people who contract H1N1 require hospitalization. This sounds a little high to me, I'm looking for confirmation of this.
Actually, the latest I'm hearing from the county is that 0.25% to 0.5% of people who contract H1N1 require hospitalization. This sounds a little high to me, I'm looking for confirmation of this.
As of late October, there were just under 1000 patients with test-confirmed H1N1 in our state, of which 50 required hospitalization, of which 19 required ICU admission.
SO far this year just over 1K people have died (I don't care about the rest of the world) from H1N1. Almost that many die EVERY WEEK in auto accidents.
Estimated annual death rates from regular flu in US are approximately 40,000 with 95% confidence interval between 27K and 55K, based on data from this study American Journal of Epidemiology Volume 163, Number 2 Pp. 181-187 Mortality due to Influenza in the United States—An Annualized Regression Approach Using Multiple-Cause Mortality Data.
I would expect at least similar loss from H1N1.
Annual loss of life from car accidents is between 40K and 50K, based on CDC data.
Smuckatelli
11-18-09, 10:04
They are giving the mist at my son's school tomorrow.....he gets a five day vacation from school starting this afternoon.
They are giving the mist at my son's school tomorrow.....he gets a five day vacation from school starting this afternoon.
They are giving them away free in my area tomorrow for people who qualify. I do since I'm in the young adult category and since I go to college I'm somewhat tempted to do get it, but I can't decide if I really should. Should have been thinking about this a bit earlier I guess.
Let me think.
Hell No.
My wife and I have been getting tons of flak for not doing so for. I guess I just like living too much, and not getting weird side effects.
I guess I must be crazy?
spamsammich
11-19-09, 02:01
Let me think.
Hell No.
My wife and I have been getting tons of flak for not doing so for. I guess I just like living too much, and not getting weird side effects.
I guess I must be crazy?
No, just not well informed.
No, just not well informed.
I apologize. My post must have read to be ignorant and ill informed.
I am no medical professional, although I do have family members including a wife that are. I have family members that are nurses and doctors that work in WA, PA, and AK all have advised to stay away from the vaccine. The fact is, it is not well tested and was released for human trials too early. It takes an average of 6-7 mos to develop and start testing any influenza vaccines. This current vaccine was released less than 6 mos since the initial outbreak in Mexico and only 3-4 months after our govt awarded contracts to the pharma corporations.
Now, I understand that many have taken the vaccine and have had no adverse side effects. Yet if the vaccine was so well prepared, why did they set up V.A.E.R.S.
Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. There have been between 5 to 20 cases of Guillian Barre Syndrome ( depending on the source ), and Dystonia here is an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHNKgc4MUN8 . It's also easy to look up the effects of the 1976 flu vaccine. Most medical professionals I have asked ( non family related ) have stated they did not and will not take the vaccine. Also they suggest anyone who is not high risk to avoid it.
I have a bad feeling from what I have read and heard on this vaccine, and I personally will not take it. I dont want to start a debate Spamsammich. I hope I clarified my stance a little better.
Well, I got it(mist kind). Hopefully that was the right choice and I'll keep you guys updated if anything bad happens.
I apologize. My post must have read to be ignorant and ill informed.
I am no medical professional, although I do have family members including a wife that are. I have family members that are nurses and doctors that work in WA, PA, and AK all have advised to stay away from the vaccine. The fact is, it is not well tested and was released for human trials too early. It takes an average of 6-7 mos to develop and start testing any influenza vaccines. This current vaccine was released less than 6 mos since the initial outbreak in Mexico and only 3-4 months after our govt awarded contracts to the pharma corporations.
Now, I understand that many have taken the vaccine and have had no adverse side effects. Yet if the vaccine was so well prepared, why did they set up V.A.E.R.S.
Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. There have been between 5 to 20 cases of Guillian Barre Syndrome ( depending on the source ), and Dystonia here is an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHNKgc4MUN8 . It's also easy to look up the effects of the 1976 flu vaccine. Most medical professionals I have asked ( non family related ) have stated they did not and will not take the vaccine. Also they suggest anyone who is not high risk to avoid it.
I have a bad feeling from what I have read and heard on this vaccine, and I personally will not take it. I dont want to start a debate Spamsammich. I hope I clarified my stance a little better.
Many seem to believe if you've reached a different conclusion from them you must not be well informed.
My doc isn't well informed either apparently.His advice was to skip it if you weren't in a "high risk group".
spamsammich
11-19-09, 18:27
Many seem to believe if you've reached a different conclusion from them you must not be well informed.
My doc isn't well informed either apparently.His advice was to skip it if you weren't in a "high risk group".
This is probably pointed at me so I'll clarify my stance.
I think that anybody that hasn't consulted with a medical health professional regarding this vaccine is making an ill informed decision, EITHER WAY. If you haven't talked to your health care provider about the pros and cons of this vaccine, you really should take the time to do so.
I could care less if anybody agreed with my choices, we all wear big boy pants here and can live with our decisions. I recognize that I am in a different risk group than many out there as my work requires that I spend time in many hospitals in different countries, I spend about 50% of my year traveling. My doctor and I decided that for me it makes sense to get immunized to reduce the chance of contracting or spreading the virus. For full disclosure, I get the flu vaccine every year (haven't had full blown seasonal flu since I started), I'm up on my Hep B shots, and I've never had MMR. I also recognize that not everybody is in my situation, nor does everybody tolerate the vaccine like I do. I'm fine with that.
What I don't like to see is misinformation being spread by those who have made knee jerk decisions either way without seeking information from a trusted source. I am continually shocked by the dozens of people in the med field, related fields, and scientists that haven't even considered consulting their physicians about this "pandemic". I made the mistake of jumping to this conclusion about Ruski based on a gross generalization I made. I'm glad he took the time to clarify his position. He and I disagree about the process of developing, manufacturing and testing this or or any influenza vaccine, but at least he's taken the time to arm himself with enough information to make a well informed decision about his health.
Wife and I have already had our turn with H1N1. No GI probs, but the respiratory part is a b1tch. Been over a week and the chest congestion is still lingering. So, anyway, we've developed our immune systems the hard way...
UrbanRunner
11-23-09, 20:25
Wife and I both got our H1N1 vaccines this afternoon.
Immediately afterwards we found ourselves at a local pub enjoying beer and pub grub. So be careful, this could happen to you if you get vaccinated...
She found the ribs to be excellent while I enjoyed the fish and chips :p
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