View Full Version : Do we hate your AR???
So I am reading this locked thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39588) and it made me laugh, but also made me want to give some input.
Before we go any further, those of you that were butt hurt in that thread, read this thread FIRST: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
So the OP in the first thread is upset that people are putting down his AR and or the AR of other members.
My first response is that this is an "open to the public" discussion forum and you are going to get people that are going to give you feedback (whether you want it or not). If you have thin skin, don't post anything ever! Just sit back and read.
Now, the one-hundred dollar comment. Yes, you can in fact get into the following rifles for about $100 over what you would pay for a BM, RRA, etc. Some of these rifles would be the DDXV, Colt 6920 and by building a BCM and LMT from parts.
You say that you don't have another $100? Really? So once you saved up the $900, you can never again (the rest of your life) come up with another $100??? I find this argument just silly. What you REALLY should be saying is that you are impatient and cannot wait so you are willing to settle. ;)
Do you have to buy a new AR? Nope. I would argue that it is better to buy a used QUALITY AR VS a new (lesser quality) one. Shocking I know, but something to consider when buying an AR.
Let's talk about "needs" and "uses." M4C is not like some of the other AR forums. This one is focused on professional shooters (Military, Contractor's, LE and Defensive minded Civy's). The MAJORITY of the members on here will ONLY ACCEPT the best, most reliable weapons. They ACTUALLY train and shoot their weapons (again, quite shocking). The question that should always be asked is; "What is your life worth?" I don't know about you, but mine is worth more than a DPMS! So if you do not fit into the above groups of people, then this forum might not be the best "fit" for you and you would be better served on a forum that is geared to you and your ideals.
The next question that I will get from reading the above statement is; "I am a dirt shooter, am I not welcome on M4C?" Of course you are. Just realize that you are surrounded by the above groups of people and they have a different view point about weapons and gear than you do.
So you say that you really don't shoot your AR much, have no intention to ever use it to defend your life and are not interested in attending training with it. Is a DPMS, Oly, RRA, BM, etc "good enough" for your needs? They sure are. Buy whatever you like and enjoy it! Those AR's will most likely fill your reqs perfectly and you will be very happy with one of them.
I will warn you though, if you run into a problem with one of the above AR's, don't post on here asking for help (as you will be told that you were stupid for buying one of these guns when you could have spent $100 more and gotten something good). ;)
Just to recap so no one is confused:
1. M4C is focused on people that are serious about training, quality gear and guns.
2. If you are not interested in number 1, have thick skin and understand where your lane ends.
3. M4C might not be the best fit for you.
4. Buy whatever you like and enjoy it.
C4
Before we go any further, those of you that were butt hurt in that thread, read this thread FIRST: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
Might I also humbly suggest this one
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39472
;)
To add insult to injury, let's talk about Rob_S's "famous" chart and what it really means.
First, do you need an AR that is ranked high in the chart? Nope.
Second, does that chart list features that really do not matter to most shooters? Yep.
What does the chart tell us? What it is showing is what the Govt looks for in a fighting weapon. The majority of the categories identify critical parts in the AR that need to be made or tested (to a certain standard) in order to increase the reliability of the weapon.
Understand that the Govt spec called out in the TDP is the LOWEST QUALITY allowed. To go above the spec is great, but to go below is a no no IMHO.
The question to ask yourself is if the gun you own or want to buy does not follow this entry level, Govt spec, what reqs is it following?? The painful answer is that the manufacturer is following the standard that puts the most money into their pocket.
C4
Might I also humbly suggest this one
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39472
;)
Have not read this one yet, but looks like it applies as well.
C4
Outlander Systems
10-15-09, 11:55
Can this be stickied? It should be mandatory reading for all rookies.
As someone who bought a BM for personal defense, I learned the hard way. At that point, all I knew was chrome-lined barrel = GTG. I erroneously assumed all AR-15s were military-weapons without selective fire.
If I had been a member here, prior to having made that purchase, I would have been better off for headaches and wallet-beatings.
After coming here, I took the tough medicine, and tried to fix it, instead of bitch about it.
I often find posts on the "unreliability" of the AR/M4 on other forums, which, to me, screams, "Sample of One = I have a qualified opinion".
Again, as you have pointed out, if you've managed to scrimp and save, and $100 is going to break your bank, you probably don't need to be buying the AR in the first place.
What's that old saying about spending a dollar to save a dime?
ETA: Let's not forget the folks who want a new AR-15, have a $1200 budget, and that must include a light, an EOTech, and a CTR. The rifle can suffer, so the budget can allow for cool-guy widgets. Cart before horse syndome.
Can this be stickied? It should be mandatory reading for all rookies.
As someone who bought a BM for personal defense, I learned the hard way. At that point, all I knew was chrome-lined barrel = GTG. I erroneously assumed all AR-15s were military-weapons without selective fire.
If I had been a member here, prior to having made that purchase, I would have been better off for headaches and wallet-beatings.
After coming here, I took the tough medicine, and tried to fix it, instead of bitch about it.
I often find posts on the "unreliability" of the AR/M4 on other forums, which, to me, screams, "Sample of One = I have a qualified opinion".
Again, as you have pointed out, if you've managed to scrimp and save, and $100 is going to break your bank, you probably don't need to be buying the AR in the first place.
What's that old saying about spending a dollar to save a dime?
Thanks for the compliment, but am not sure that it is "sticky" worthy.
For the record, I own more RRA and BM AR's than I do Colt's. So can you fix or improve a lower quality AR? Sure can and that rifle will go on to give you years of enjoyment.
C4
So you say that you really don't shoot your AR much, have no intention to ever use it to defend your life and are not interested in attending training with it. Is a DPMS, Oly, RRA, BM, etc "good enough" for your needs? They sure are. Buy whatever you like and enjoy it! Those AR will most likely fill your reqs perfectly and you will be very happy with one of them.
C4
The problem starts when THAT guy interjects himself into a serious weapons/tactics/gear discussion.
Can this be stickied? It should be mandatory reading for all rookies.
As someone who bought a BM for personal defense, I learned the hard way. At that point, all I knew was chrome-lined barrel = GTG. I erroneously assumed all AR-15s were military-weapons without selective fire.
If I had been a member here, prior to having made that purchase, I would have been better off for headaches and wallet-beatings.
After coming here, I took the tough medicine, and tried to fix it, instead of bitch about it.
I often find posts on the "unreliability" of the AR/M4 on other forums, which, to me, screams, "Sample of One = I have a qualified opinion".
Again, as you have pointed out, if you've managed to scrimp and save, and $100 is going to break your bank, you probably don't need to be buying the AR in the first place.
What's that old saying about spending a dollar to save a dime?
ETA: Let's not forget the folks who want a new AR-15, have a $1200 budget, and that must include a light, an EOTech, and a CTR. The rifle can suffer, so the budget can allow for cool-guy widgets. Cart before horse syndome.
I think this is a very important point and I want to thank Navigating Collapse for bringing it up.
No one has suggested that you throw away your carbine and run out and buy a Colt. If so, send me the link because I want to see it for myself. What we are suggesting is that you can make a much more educated purchase that is based on more than, "I shot 100 rounds through mine and it's good to go"!
We're also about helping those that have purchased Bushmasters, RRA or other brands by providing info on where the weak spots are, what you might want to replace to avoid "common" problems or how to keep them running smoothly.
I've posted in numerous Bushmaster threads for example and told members to shot their carbines and replace parts X, Y and Z when they need to be replaced. Not run out and replace them right this second or your carbine will evaporate the first time you shoot it.
Keep in mind that a lot of info that is handed out here comes from real world, first hand experience. Use it if you can but don't get bent out of shape if it doesn't apply to you.
The problem starts when THAT guy interjects himself into a serious weapons/tactics/gear discussion.
Right you are. Some do not realize what M4C is all about so I took the time to tell it like it is.
C4
For me, I see no problem with a buyer who can't come up with the $100 and settles for 2nd tier AR. If this is indeed the case, then I have to assume one cannot purchase enough ammo to find a fault in the gun. If your shooting is limited and you STILL have problems, then it's decision time on upgrading or trying to work out the kinks to have faith in the weapon.
I also like how things are not sugar coated here on M4. I had to wait several days after I registered and spent some time going through all the sticky's and other threads before I could even ask my first question. This gave me more insight to what this site is about and soon realized I would be changing direction for a what I want in a battle gun.
While you can get M4 answers for most questions and applications for your AR's, the experts here really aren't impressed with how accurate my varmint AR is. (see why m4carbine)
Lumpy nailed it.
Outlander Systems
10-15-09, 12:17
So can you fix or improve a lower quality AR? Sure can and that rifle will go on to give you years of enjoyment.
C4
Exactly.
This is what always gives me the chuckles. Instead of getting butt-hurt over it, the fixes are relatively simple and affordable. My infuriation was caused by spending $1500 on a Bushmaster (in '07), and realising the opportunity cost of that purchase (DD, Etc.). Then realising its factory shortcomings the hard way.
I think one of the big contributions to the "Oh no, I bought a _________" is often a lack of options from local dealers and from shady gun-show dudes.
At gun shops I often hear either complete, outright, lies about AR-15s, or the person is massively misinformed.
I was actually told, quite recently that a TAPCO handguard was the "new Magpul one", and that an ACOG was battery-powered, or the classic, "Well, it's Mil-Spec"(in regards to a T3 manufacturer) when AR shopping with my brother.
My personal nature didn't allow me to correct the guys; however, upon leaving this particular shop with my brother, I informed him I'd never buy anything from them again. As well, this absolutely HAS to lead to some of the thinking seen here by the panty-ruffled guys whose AR's we "hate".
There's a local shop down here who is notorious for building cheap ARs on lowers, and selling them as items from that manufacturer.
The best advice I have is to buy something from a reputable dealer, from a manufacturer that has a track-record of quality.
Well said Grant!!! My life, at least to me, is worth the added cost of equipment and the cost of training.
Exactly.
At gun shops I often hear either complete, outright, lies about AR-15s, or the person is massively misinformed.
I was actually told, quite recently that a TAPCO handguard was the "new Magpul one", and that an ACOG was battery-powered, or the classic, "Well, it's Mil-Spec"(in regards to a T3 manufacturer) when AR shopping with my brother.
My personal nature didn't allow me to correct the guys; however, upon leaving this particular shop with my brother, I informed him I'd never buy anything from them again. As well, this absolutely HAS to lead to some of the thinking seen here by the panty-ruffled guys whose AR's we "hate".
I have to agree and say that the biggest benefit of this forum is that it protects the new buyer from the above! M4Carbine saved me from purchasing that "Government Issue DPMS", or "Mil-Spec Bushmaster". Now I don't have a top tier rifle, I made an educated decision on what I wanted to purchase based on my needs, my requirements regarding shopping (I like to hold what I buy, not order it ((it's a flaw I know))), and what I learned from this site. This site kept me from making a purchase I would have really regretted, but allowed me to make the best choice for my needs which was a high end 2nd tier rifle that is easily upgraded!
Now, as a civilian I want to put something out there that may be a bit harsh towards the individuals in question that started the original thread but it needs to be said:
I am a Civilian Dirt Shooter/Hunter, I have no intention of hunting with my AR unless in an emergency. I have other guns, that serve each purpose well, including dirt punching. Why then did I purchase an AR? I had no honest need for an AR. I bought my AR15 for it's designed function! I purchased it as a tool I never want to have to use! But, I know my knowledge of how to use it could be life or death. I bought the AR knowing and understanding the reason it was designed and the intended application of the tool. So let's not beat around the bush, that this gun's intent is one thing and one thing only; To effectively kill or maim human beings in a 20th/21st century environment.
So if I bought it as a tool that I want to know how to use effectively but hope to never have to employ for it's intended purpose, why in all hell would I buy a cheap one that can possibly fail? If I ever HAVE to use this firearm in a defensive situation I want to know it can perform and perform well.
With that said here is my question/statement for all of the people that complain about members ragging on their range toy: Why, other then to look cool would you purchase an AR simply as a range toy? It is very easy for me to interpret such complaints as those we are talking about in such a way. I come from the school of thought that if you buy crap it very easily may hurt you or get you hurt one day. In fact it could get you killed. I applied this mentality to my AR purchase, and now I'm not crying, or trying to play catch up.
A good comparison for me is that M4Carbine is made up people who take an attitude towards the M4 similar to the way people who buy their camping gear at REI look at outdoor sports. If your attitude towards firearms is similar to the attitude of "campers" who buy their stuff at Walmart or call RV vacations 'camping', then maybe this isn't the forum for you.
OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :D
From another site, not TOS.
I would highly suggest www.m4carbine.net. This site is highly known for having true industry professionals. They are much more conducive and helpful to those new to the AR/M4/M16 world as opposed to some other sites. You will get very good, no-nonsense advice as to which makers and retailers are tops.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. All "Colt Kool-Aid.net" offers is total and complete bias to Colt, and anything and everything attached to it. I get so sick and tired of hearing their biased B.S. it makes me want to puke! I'm not saying Colts are "bad", I just get tired of hear them drone over and over how they are the only AR platform rifle worth anything. Total nonsense.
I've caught their Kool-Aid drinkers acting like complete fools so many times with their convictions it is almost laughable.
I guess he didn't get to read these threads first. :(
Having worked for my dealer friends at gun shows over the years, I have noticed that with a lot of people buying a gun is an emotional purchase. They want something and they want it now. Often customers have done no research and do not really know what they are looking at. With AR rifles, like 1911 pistols, it can become a problem because of the differences that exist manufacturer to manufacturer. The customers can't rely on the rifle being well made since there are are over a dozen different makers and some make a better product than others. Typically, they rely on the salesman as an expert to tell them it's great (often a mistake) and after purchasing it, the gun is a trophy for them representing a successful hunt. When they go online and start to discuss what they bought, there are always individuals who want to tell them they got junk, ripped off, etc.
The problem is no one wants to hear that they made a mistake or that that they're not knowledgeable. Often a criticism of a gun or accessory is taken by the individual as a personal attack on who they are.
I think there are helpful people here, but given the sheer number of members it's kind of difficult to make sure people keep it civil and intelligent. -I remember a thread where someone questioned why EOTech was allowed to advertise here given the internet chatter. One of the members went as far as to say something along the lines of Aimpoint = Professional and EOTech = Range Toy. It wasn't until one of the guys who does contractor work said they were being used over there and had worked fine did the conversation change. Before he had said anything, it was like an EOTech blanket party. Once he spoke, it was OK for EOTech users to come out and say they had one, liked it, and it worked fine for them too. The funniest line that I recall from the thread was something like "The special operations guys use them and they work for them, but they haven't had time yet to read that it sucks online."
Sometimes the proponents for the best stuff do the worst job making their point and that's when it becomes a total mess. Truth can be a destructive force and if one cares enough to tell someone the truth, one should care enough to help them rebuild. There's a difference between someone saying a Bushmaster or Rock River isn't up to snuff, sell it, and get a Daniel Defense rifle and someone saying, that while it wouldn't be their first choice there are things that can be done to upgrade it; replace X parts as they wear out. Too often, people meet individuals online who just want to knock their sand castle down and that's really not good for shooters as a group.
Excellent thread.
Here is a typical patern that leads to people getting butthurt about this topic.
Someone buys or owns a rifle that does not have the important features either because they bought it before they knew better or they did not have the money, and then start insisting that their rifle is 'just as good as' or that those features are not as important. This starts an argument.
My view is that if you want something AR like to shoot and generally plink, you can buy a gun without some of the features, as long as you keep this in mind.
But many people do this and later become unhappy with it and want something better. Typically if they waited longer, they might have been able to afford it.
My thought on this is that as long as you have a firearm that can serve well in the home defense role, you are better off waiting to get a better quality AR.
Of course all this has been complicated by the recent price hikes and availability problems and panic buying that has just calmed down.
In spite of all this, there are improvements you can buy for a reasonable amount that go a long way toward addressing an inferior AR. The first I can think of is buying a Bravo Co bolt and bolt carrier for $150. So if you had an AR without a lot of the mil spec features you could go a fair way to address some of the most significant ones by spending $150ish including shipping.
Other things, like a non-5.56mm chamber are more expensive to fix. The price of a Ned Christianson Chamber Reamer is about $250 shipped. At this point it starts making less economic sense to upgrade because you are talking a total of $400ish to upgrade a rifle (Bolt & bolt carrier and chamber reamer).
Also, if you are limited in funds, there are some less expensive guns that might not have all of the features that have proven to run well--namely the S&W M&P models.
Botom line is if I am going to stake my life on the gun for defensive purposes, or even run the gun in a lot of relatively high round count classes, I want something that has the same quality and reliability features as one that I would take on a battlefield. I've seen people waste their money on a $500 training class because their Bushmaster could not get through 10 rounds without a malfunction--and this was not even a shooting intensive class.
Rob S. had some signature line material in the locked thread :
"and what is this "insult a rifle". The very usage of that term betrays the exact kind of thing we're discussing in the link at the top of this post. You ain't no Clint Eastwood, and that Oly Plinker ain't no mule."
"Personally I'd rather see the integrity of the site maintained than have a shiny happy place where all people are welcome. I'm here because we DON'T get a lot of bullshit from the 200-rounds-per-year-from-the-bench crowd."
Outlander Systems
10-15-09, 13:27
OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :D
From another site, not TOS.
I guess he didn't get to read these threads first. :(
"The Chart
Has Struck Fear
Into the Hearts of Many"
I think there are helpful people here, but given the sheer number of members it's kind of difficult to make sure people keep it civil and intelligent. -I remember a thread where someone questioned why EOTech was allowed to advertise here given the internet chatter. One of the members went as far as to say something along the lines of Aimpoint = Professional and EOTech = Range Toy. It wasn't until one of the guys who does contractor work said they were being used over there and had worked fine did the conversation change. Before he had said anything, it was like an EOTech blanket party. Once he spoke, it was OK for EOTech users to come out and say they had one, liked it, and it worked fine for them too. The funniest line that I recall from the thread was something like "The special operations guys use them and they work for them, but they haven't had time yet to read that it sucks online."
I started that thread! And I did so because I was ignorant and had an honest question. The thread allowed for an open discussion amongst real users to discuss the applications of an accessory, and also allowed for those of us like myself to make an honest judgement of the value of that accessory. If you only have internet information to go on, then using the internet to gain valuable information is a good thing. Let's face it there aren't a lot of books out there to buy about the improvements in the M4 world.
If you search my posting history you will find I use this site often as a vetting place for possible purchases I find at gun stores. That is why I love this site!
OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :D
From another site, not TOS.
I guess he didn't get to read these threads first. :(
You're talking about TOS where common sense and reasoning is thrown out the window for +1 postings.
If that dude thinks we're all about Colt it truly shows how little he knows. That means this forum REALLY isn't for him. ;)
Agreed with all above. I think though, to sound all smartie and shit, is sort of a cognitive problem.
1) People get all wrapped up, like in Rob_s's freud thing. For some reason it's like criticising someone's driving. Everyone instantly takes it personally. It's not personal. Shuttup and listen to the smarties (IQ and experience) on this forum.
2) Cerebral vs visceral. People make decisions on all sorts of things, and often set a budget or some other goal based on some logical or illogical "cerebral" information. They never have a visceral connection to the true fear of Bad Things, so they don't connect up the visceral to the cerebral and say, "$100" is truly worth it.
I've met people who have closed that gap without getting into a bad place. I've met some who required it, and some who never have. The first two types seem to to be the people that this site is perfect for.
I'm 35 now, and my limited experience is that once you make that visceral connection, that hundred bucks is cheap. I spend more money than I should on training. I built a gym in my garage with heavy and speed bags, and olympic weights, and all that crap for over $6k, because fitness is as important as gear. I may have have a lot less money because of it, but I'm better prepared, and have more confidence in myself and my gear. I don't know shit, but I do know that just once I DIDN'T have that confidence, and it was once too many.
John_Wayne777
10-15-09, 13:48
People should not become so personally invested in inanimate objects that they can't stand hearing that the one they have isn't technically the greatest one on the market.
Outlander Systems
10-15-09, 13:49
When I was 23, I had the unfortunate happenstance to be involved in an extraordinarily violent situation with multiple (10-12) bad guys. I ended up in a bad way, but my best childhood friend ended up almost dying from loss of blood (multiple transfusions) and still carries the horrendous scars, mostly from broken bottles. We had even submitted before they attacked us anyway. His face, in the hospital the next morning, closed the cerebral/visceral gap for me. If I can help it, that will not happen to me again. Period. That terrible night made the decision for me. I understood then how that fear should turn into: be prepared, get the best, train the best, stay fit, stay alert.
In '07 I made the switch back to Semi-Auto handguns and rifles from wheelguns and pump shotguns after a buddy got stabbed 17 times by 6 dudes.
Not quite as personal, but the event definitely got the gears turning.
Exactly.
This is what always gives me the chuckles. Instead of getting butt-hurt over it, the fixes are relatively simple and affordable. My infuriation was caused by spending $1500 on a Bushmaster (in '07), and realising the opportunity cost of that purchase (DD, Etc.). Then realising its factory shortcomings the hard way.
I think one of the big contributions to the "Oh no, I bought a _________" is often a lack of options from local dealers and from shady gun-show dudes.
At gun shops I often hear either complete, outright, lies about AR-15s, or the person is massively misinformed.
I was actually told, quite recently that a TAPCO handguard was the "new Magpul one", and that an ACOG was battery-powered, or the classic, "Well, it's Mil-Spec"(in regards to a T3 manufacturer) when AR shopping with my brother.
My personal nature didn't allow me to correct the guys; however, upon leaving this particular shop with my brother, I informed him I'd never buy anything from them again. As well, this absolutely HAS to lead to some of the thinking seen here by the panty-ruffled guys whose AR's we "hate".
There's a local shop down here who is notorious for building cheap ARs on lowers, and selling them as items from that manufacturer.
The best advice I have is to buy something from a reputable dealer, from a manufacturer that has a track-record of quality.
You bring up a valid point about my fellow FFL dealers. They typically know less than a newb on TOS that just bought his first AR. They are also to be trusted like you would a used car salesman. ;)
As a gun store owner, I am struggling with correcting people that call me on the phone or stop into my shop.
Example:
Customer: Do you have any Oly AR's?
Me: No Sir, we do not stock them.
Customer: Ok.
This conversation happens via phone and in person all the time. What I struggle with is telling people that they really don't want what they think they want.
Is it my job to educate people? No. Do I feel bad for letting them buy a pos? Yes.
C4
Very well written OP. I believe part of the problem is impulse buying and instant gratification to only learn later on that you made a poor, expensive decision and you try to justify it. My uncle is a BM owner, occasional plinker and completely happy with his purchase even after hearing the facts, to each his own.
I'm the opposite, I'll study about something for weeks before making a purchase on an expensive item. I came to M4C and read/lurked for weeks before purchasing my 1st AR which was an LMT, along with 3 other LMT's, a Noveske Recce and Noveske SBR. I'm completely happy with all my purchases and have no need to defend them, they stand on their own quality, accuracy & durability.
Hey Grant ,
do you have any oly AR's in stock? Of not would you put me on your waitin list and PM me a price?
Thanks man.
Noops
OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :D
From another site, not TOS.
I guess he didn't get to read these threads first. :(
Who knows, but it wasn't me as I do not even own a Colt! :eek:
C4
Hey Grant ,
do you have any oly AR's in stock? Of not would you put me on your waitin list and PM me a price?
Thanks man.
Noops
LOL, yes, I will order you one right now (as soon as I figure out how to go about ordering one (never checked before)). :D
C4
My 2nd AR I put together with knowledge from this forum. Bought the lower, and reciever extension and stock/spring and grip. Total cost about $385
The parts kit, daniel defence rail, LMT upper and FN bolt carrier group I got all in trades for other goods I had or made. Could I have planned that??? Hell no. Thanks to this forum I know what to look for and what to run long term. Did I have a bushy? Yes. Do I know? No. Did it fail on me. No.
Get what you want and don't let another mans opinion sore up your butt so much :)
I like my current full LMT and 1/2 LMT.
Jay Cunningham
10-15-09, 15:21
I deleted a couple of posts - keep this on topic and take it to PM if you feel you must.
OK, which one of you, or ones of you pissed in this guys Cheerios? :D
From another site, not TOS.
I guess he didn't get to read these threads first. :(
Bill T has been banned from here, last time I checked.
I fall into the last category of members on this site.
I originally was on TOS for a bit, latched onto a more local forum and from there discovered this place. What have I learned from just reading threads, PMing some of the more knowledgeable members is first and fore most you get what you pay for. Do not expect to pay pinto prices and get Ferrari performance.
I have friends go 'oh, my so-and-so is just as good as your BCM or LMT" because as Grant pointed out they shot it under slow fire range rules. But then come and ask me why their AR all of a sudden is malfunctioning when they start to push it.
Are my ARs the best and have the 'cool' mfg's for items? No, far from it. I wanted to get a DD Omega 9" for my 16" middy but after thinking it over that I the rails were not truly important to have the latest and best. I am not going to war with it, I just need a place to mount a light and VFG so settled with a Troy MRF-DI after hearing feed back that this would suite my needs just fine.
And from this sight and multiple members who's experience and opinion I do respect that for one of my rifles an Eotech would be just fine.
So Grant et al. thanks for taking the time to help those of us who are not LEO, Military, Industry Professionals still able to have a chance to learn and get feedback on a subject that we feel is important in case something goes bad.
Rock River on the outside.
Tooth-grinding nail eater on the inside.
Find what works best for you, and you'll be better off.
I just put a good bolt/trigger/barrel inside of Rock River receivers.
I'm sure it will last plenty long! :cool:
Irish- WTF? You and I have had this conversation before. QUIT SHOWING OFF YOUR HOT WIFE! Damn. How do you expect anything constructive to get done here? Sheesh!
Robb Jensen
10-15-09, 20:56
Great thread Grant.
I too think it should be 'stickied'.
montanadave
10-15-09, 21:44
With all the effort that has been made by black rifle manufacturers and owners to remove the "assault weapon" stigma from these firearms and promote the AR platform as a versatile rifle suitable for recreational, target, competition, and hunting purposes, perhaps it might be prudent to avoid comments such as:
"So let's not beat around the bush, that this gun's intent is one thing and one thing only; To effectively kill or maim human beings in a 20th/21st century environment."
Just 'cuz it's true doesn't mean it needs to be said. :D
RogerinTPA
10-15-09, 21:51
People should not become so personally invested in inanimate objects that they can't stand hearing that the one they have isn't technically the greatest one on the market.
Exactly, for it is only a tool, a piece of gear or TTPs.
However, in this forum, we place a premium on finding what the best tools, gear, and TTPs, are. Not only the best and practical, but what really works in the real world, FROM a first hand perspective. Learning from each other, in a no BS, real world perspective, is the greatest benefit of this forum.
As Grant and many others have stated, "Grow a Thick Skin". We are pretty intolerant of "folly" post. Don't get all "butt hurt"and make an "emotional outburst" because someone challenges your post, and no one wants to follow you off the "proverbial cliff". Be prepared to defend your assertion, factually and logically.
This may not add or take away from this thread but I wanted to post about an experience I had with a friend. For the record I shoot a "tier1" rifle with "tier1" accesories. So he comes to me and asks what I think he should buy, I asked his purpose and price point, recommended a S&W is the lowest he should go as well as other choices that were supperior and why. He bought a bushy cuz his father in-law says its the best. He asked me a few months later why his rifle was short stroking. I offered him some fix's and he ignored them. He later told me that the more experienced members on TOS told him it was ammo issue (which was a suggestion of mine) and he still has that problem regardless of ammo. So even though he stated he wanted my opinion since I had recently done a retarded ammount of research into the platform, I still did not give the answer he was looking for. Basically I have since decided (and stuck by my descision) to not offer, suggest, push, mention or talk about my preferences. I have noticed most people really don't care and are looking for a certain answer. I went with what "I" decided "I" wanted based on factual data as well as experienced reviews. Sometimes I consider covering up any manufactorer details to avoid the "you paid for the name" bullshit at the range but I don't, those that are in the know or are like minded as myself don't care what I own or are happy to see others that are not drones to gun shop bullshit.
Irish- WTF? You and I have had this conversation before. QUIT SHOWING OFF YOUR HOT WIFE! Damn. How do you expect anything constructive to get done here? Sheesh!
Sorry, changed it :D
Robb Jensen
10-15-09, 22:20
Good post Tinman.
Many don't really want to hear the truth. Many just want to justify their reason(s) for what they bought. Many can't accept that they made a mistake....One only learns when they are receptive to what's really going on...aka they have an open mind. Most of the time the older a person gets the easier owning up to mistakes becomes easier and easier.
Sorry, changed it :D
note to self...send 6933 a pm to keep trap shut
I have learned a lot in the 2 years about that I have been reading M4C. My builds/build-dreams are a lot different now than they were 2 years ago. This site has greatly influenced me business wise as well in terms of what I want to carry and not carry as product lines.
Hopefully I can be of help to some of the newbies in the future who have the "hateable" ARs...
With all the effort that has been made by black rifle manufacturers and owners to remove the "assault weapon" stigma from these firearms and promote the AR platform as a versatile rifle suitable for recreational, target, competition, and hunting purposes, perhaps it might be prudent to avoid comments such as:
"So let's not beat around the bush, that this gun's intent is one thing and one thing only; To effectively kill or maim human beings in a 20th/21st century environment."
Just 'cuz it's true doesn't mean it needs to be said. :D
Ummm no, I don't lie. Sorry.
You bring up a valid point about my fellow FFL dealers. They typically know less than a newb on TOS that just bought his first AR. They are also to be trusted like you would a used car salesman. ;)
As a gun store owner, I am struggling with correcting people that call me on the phone or stop into my shop.
Example:
Customer: Do you have any Oly AR's?
Me: No Sir, we do not stock them.
Customer: Ok.
This conversation happens via phone and in person all the time. What I struggle with is telling people that they really don't want what they think they want.
Is it my job to educate people? No. Do I feel bad for letting them buy a pos? Yes.
C4When my rifle arrived at my ffl form your shop, I was looking at it and I pulled the charging handle out, of the upper, like a total newb, and the bolt flew out on to the floor. I picked it up and tried to put it back together and couldn't get the charging handle and bcg back in, because of the groove the handle slides up into before moving forward. Anyway there are three people working this gun shop and not one of them had any clue how to put it in, and they sell ar's. The one guy was fiddling with it for a while before he got it in there, probably would have taken me about the same amount of time to figure out. Once you have done it once it is a very simple process. So there's an example of three gun salesman who had no clue.
By the way you rock.
Good post Grant. This is a excellent forum with experianced people of all types. Everyone is very helpful with coaching people on what guns or parts they will need to have a reliable functioning rifle. I personally built up lowers and put RRA and Stag uppers on them, but to be honest correcting them to tier 1 standards has been the fun part.
I also want to say that I don't think this happens NEARLY as much as the whiners seem to think. I wish there was a way to compile the data, but I see way more "hi there, welcome to M4C. Stake the carrier and castle nut and go shoot the hell out of it" threads than I do "you're a dumbass and you bought a piece of shit".
Which brings up another good thread to read (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28658&highlight=shoot). ;)
Great thread Grant.
I too think it should be 'stickied'.
Thanks much.
C4
Good post Tinman.
Many don't really want to hear the truth. Many just want to justify their reason(s) for what they bought. Many can't accept that they made a mistake....One only learns when they are receptive to what's really going on...aka they have an open mind. Most of the time the older a person gets the easier owning up to mistakes becomes easier and easier.
I have learned that the meanest thing you can EVER say to someone is the truth.
Older shooters do in fact accept realitymistakes much better than younger shooters (typically in the 18-25 range).
My guess is that everyone that get's butt hurt over being told their AR is not the best is in that age group.
C4
The two folks that this thread was meant to "help" have not or will not post in it, but have exchanged PM's with me.
One of them seems to believe that the people in here are trying to justify their more expensive purchase or that they traded a perfectly good (working) Oly/DPMS/BM/ETC for a Colt/LMT/BCM/etc for no apparent reason.
I asked for proof of such things, but to date have not received any links.
Let us also take a minute to clear up some incorrect assumptions on twist rates.
The 1/7 twist will do EVERYTHING the 1/9 twist will do (like shoot 55gr ammo well) AND give you the ability to shoot heavier grain ammo that greatly extends the range of the 556/223.
Couple that with the fact that every barrel I have had to ream (because of stuck casings) was a 1/9 twist. So the question begs to be asked; why would you EVER buy a 1/9 twist barrel???
C4
Older shooters do in fact accept realitymistakes much better than younger shooters (typically in the 18-25 range).
My guess is that everyone that get's butt hurt over being told their AR is not the best is in that age group.
I disagree. I don't think it's age-specific at all. There are stubborn old guys that say things like "I been shootin' since you wuz an itch in yor daddy's shorts".
so the reasons why people get upset may be different, but I don't think it's age-specific at all.
Although the most pig-headed seem to be the 22-25 year old military/recent prior service folks who's only exposure to firearms and training comes from the military. Man of them have used their issue guns to kill a lot of smelly bearded men, and think that automatically translates to a knowledge of commercially available firearms.
It would be like asking Richard Petty to change the alternator on a factory Corvette. Good luck with that.
I currently have two Bushy's. Why'd I buy them? For the same reason I ate Ramen Noodles every day during college. They were affordable AND I had no idea that there was something better out there until I could afford to spend more time and money to look.
It's simple exposure. All I'd ever seen in gun shops around here were Bushy's and Colts. Way back then, the Colts were astronomically higher priced than the Bushy's and I fell hook line and "stinker" for the "Mil-Spec" speech from the salesman. Now, after a few short months of reading post after post about what makes one better(more reliable) than the other... I'll take home made Pasta Primavera over Ramen Noodles everyday, but that doesn't mean I lose any appreciation for thos Ramen Noodles getting me thru the rough times.
It took some banging my head against the wall to get over my having bought a T2/3 product all those years ago because it's served me well. It's had it's failures, but I fixed what I could and shot the hell out of it. I think now...$1100 later, my Bushy is a great gun, but it vaguely resembles the rifle it was all those years ago.
I bought a Noveske recently, awaiting NFA paperwork to assemble it, and I'll shoot the crap out of it too, but the old Bushy(rev.4 that's about how many major modifications I've made to it) will accompany me to my next training class as a back up regardless of what rollmark is on it.
Thanks, by the way, for the education.
People should not become so personally invested in inanimate objects that they can't stand hearing that the one they have isn't technically the greatest one on the market.
without sounding too wonky about this, I don't think it's the object itself they are defending. I think they're defending their choice.
no one wants to be told they're stupid and being told their CHOICE (that they've put a certain amount of thought and energy and anticipation into) is not the best choice, is going to be taken like a negative comment on their personal intelligence.
I don't think anyone would have a hard time explaining the "the chart", and getting understanding of its benefits, to anyone if they were able to get to them before they had already made "THE CHOICE".
btw, these are simply opinions and I don't claim to be any more intelligent than anyone else here. but I come by these observations simply from having been married for 20 years and raising three boys. I'm pretty well schooled in obstinacy and bull headedness...
The two folks that this thread was meant to "help" have not or will not post in it, but have exchanged PM's with me.
One of them seems to believe that the people in here are trying to justify their more expensive purchase or that they traded a perfectly good (working) Oly/DPMS/BM/ETC for a Colt/LMT/BCM/etc for no apparent reason.
I asked for proof of such things, but to date have not received any links.
C4
Don't feel bad Grant, everytime I've dealt with folks like that they never send me any examples either. On the other hand I show them all the posts where I've (and others) have given straight up and solid advice on what to look for, what to replace and my typical, "if it's not having any issues right now don't mess with it and spend your money on ammo, mags, range fees and training" response.
Some people will get it and others, no matter how many times you tell them, won't.
One of them seems to believe that the people in here are trying to justify their more expensive purchase or that they traded a perfectly good (working) Oly/DPMS/BM/ETC for a Colt/LMT/BCM/etc for no apparent reason.
C4
???
I don't get the logic here. Almost sounds like class envy?? Why would anyone need to justify a higher end AR purchase if that is what they wanted?? Do those with loaded F250 diesels that never see a dirt road and / or even pull a trailer need to justify it if that is where they want to spend the Coin??
I notice there is no mention of competition 3 Gun / full blown battle guns. This is where the experts prefer and highly recommend the tier one, correct??
My personal M4 experience is limited to a pre ban Colt and a RRA Entry tactical. Never had an issue with either & if I needed to defend myself, have no reason not to trust either. I also have never been to a class or tortured them...so, I have to go by the recommendations by those in the trenches. Why is this so difficult to grasp??
I recently sold my M4's to help fund another AR project. It will go slow due to funds and NFA but I'm cool with that. I'm also going against the grain of some and going with a billet. Why, cuz I had an inside track with another dealer buddy & it's what I want, like the cool factor and trust the final build will be reliable & fun to shoot. Would I like to sign up for classes and educate myself more?? Sure, but it's not a priority for me as I have other interests that eat up my time and money like hunting, my kids sports, etc.
I just don't get how this site could be labeled by some as the Colt / Koolaid place when I see more posts about Noveski, LMT, DD, BCM, and others?? Where is the brand name agenda?? For the new guys, I would say relax, learn and pass your own judgements on what YOU want and need for your individual AR application. I really find the controversy amusing to me but do get frustrated watching those in the know always defending their posts, even more than the recommended weapon.
Irish- I'm being straffed, please put pic of wife up again.:p Just waiting for hostile PM's and a ban threat. Where is my Bug out bag?
Irish- I'm being straffed, please put pic of wife up again.:p Just waiting for hostile PM's and a ban threat. Where is my Bug out bag?
So you're the one responsible for him removing that outstanding avatar?
Just payin' a compliment in a way that went south. Hell, didn't think he'd actually replace it.
Wife walked around the desk as I was reading the post, saw the pic, and asked me just what was I reading. I don't want to replace anything that stirs up the wife a little. Keeps life interesting.:p
I think I see a black helo circling with M4C on the side.
Irish- I'm being straffed, please put pic of wife up again.:p Just waiting for hostile PM's and a ban threat. Where is my Bug out bag?
You don't like me wakeboarding?!?! :confused: Here's the phone pic she sent me again... I just got a new camera so I'll be testing it out this weekend and posting new pictures :D
Good conversation, everybody have a great weekend! I'm headed to the lake for beers, boating & bikinis!!!
That's more like it.
Back to the topic at hand.
Just payin' a compliment in a way that went south. Hell, didn't think he'd actually replace it.
I totally understood the compliment, just thought I'd play along ;) It's the easiest way for me to find my old posts and I'd much rather look at her than me shooting one of my pea shooters.
I disagree. I don't think it's age-specific at all. There are stubborn old guys that say things like "I been shootin' since you wuz an itch in yor daddy's shorts".
so the reasons why people get upset may be different, but I don't think it's age-specific at all.
Although the most pig-headed seem to be the 22-25 year old military/recent prior service folks who's only exposure to firearms and training comes from the military. Man of them have used their issue guns to kill a lot of smelly bearded men, and think that automatically translates to a knowledge of commercially available firearms.
It would be like asking Richard Petty to change the alternator on a factory Corvette. Good luck with that.
The biggest, narrow minded arguments I have gotten into with people have been in that age group.
Not to say that I haven't had it out with people twice my age, but eventually they will come back to me later (after the emotions have calmed down) and tell me that they see my POV. Not that I was right, but that they can see where I am coming from and how I got there.
C4
So you're the one responsible for him removing that outstanding avatar?
BAN HIM!
C4
crusader4x
10-16-09, 15:08
You all can count me in as one of the newbs who lurked here for months, read a LOT of posts, did a little research here, then finally made a well informed purchase last month: A BCM Mid-length AR with the hammer forged barrel from Grant last month. I couldn't be happier.
hopeitsfast
10-16-09, 15:27
Complete newb here. I have been lurking and reading only a few days here. I've lurked and read on that other forum. I have a question regarding ARs. Why does it seem like with ARs that the 'flavor of the month' seems to change so often? Wasn't there a time when BM's were considered great? or RRA? I've always read good things about Colt so that one seems constant. Then it was ' LMT bolt carriers are the way to go' now it's BCM this and that. This isn't intended to be a wiseass type of question, i'm sure i'm not the only one notice this. BTW, this site is Great.Keep up the good work.
RancidSumo
10-16-09, 15:57
It isn't that LMT BCGs are no longer great, it is just that new options come up and people start pointing them out as well.
Artos,
You have nailed it. If you cannot save an extra 100-200.00 dollars then you probably cannot afford magazines, ammunition or even a light. It also means that you don't have the money to make the basic necessary upgrades to the weapon.
This has been mentioned here and other threads as well. If you want an AR then there IS NOT REASON that you cannot save.
If you NEED an AR as in your life depends on it. Do you really want to trust your life or that of your familys' to a weapon system that is known to have issues? I know I don't and won't.
For me, I see no problem with a buyer who can't come up with the $100 and settles for 2nd tier AR. If this is indeed the case, then I have to assume one cannot purchase enough ammo to find a fault in the gun. If your shooting is limited and you STILL have problems, then it's decision time on upgrading or trying to work out the kinks to have faith in the weapon.
I also like how things are not sugar coated here on M4. I had to wait several days after I registered and spent some time going through all the sticky's and other threads before I could even ask my first question. This gave me more insight to what this site is about and soon realized I would be changing direction for a what I want in a battle gun.
While you can get M4 answers for most questions and applications for your AR's, the experts here really aren't impressed with how accurate my varmint AR is. (see why m4carbine)
Lumpy nailed it.
Just wanted to chime in as somebody who has mostly lurked around here for some time now -- an absolute wealth of information to be had here, all you have to do is pay attention to it.
I'm glad that I found this site at a time when my cash was tied up in precision bolt guns -- it's given me time to really benefit from knowledge and experience here before parting with my money. When I do get around to taking the AR plunge, it will be one of the more informed "first purchases" I've ever made, and I'm grateful to everybody here for that.
So, um, thanks guys!
-Matt
Complete newb here. I have been lurking and reading only a few days here. I've lurked and read on that other forum. I have a question regarding ARs. Why does it seem like with ARs that the 'flavor of the month' seems to change so often? Wasn't there a time when BM's were considered great? or RRA? I've always read good things about Colt so that one seems constant. Then it was ' LMT bolt carriers are the way to go' now it's BCM this and that. This isn't intended to be a wiseass type of question, i'm sure i'm not the only one notice this. BTW, this site is Great.Keep up the good work.
Because that damn Paul guy from Bravo Company keeps improving things and offers them at better prices! :mad:
I can't tell you how much he's cost me lately!
Seriously though, things improve over time. What was good a couple years ago has been improved upon and is even better now.
Why does it seem like with ARs that the 'flavor of the month' seems to change so often? Wasn't there a time when BM's were considered great? or RRA? I've always read good things about Colt so that one seems constant. Then it was ' LMT bolt carriers are the way to go' now it's BCM this and that.
I need to remember to save this....
Prior to the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994, there was actually very little interest in "black rifles". Many gun shops had guns like HK G3s and AKs that sat on the shelf and didn't sell. Then came the ban, and everyone wanted what they couldn't have. In the beginning there were very few makers. You had Colt, of course, who's quality was not what it is today, Armalite, and Bushmaster (at the time still called "Quality Parts", while their firearms were the only thing called "Bushmasters"). Because the Colts were lacking in many features, and there wasn't any real competition, many people said "just remember your ABCs" for Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt. There were other companies on the scene too like Hesse, Olympic, "Panther Arms" (now exclusively DPMS) etc. Many of those makers used cast receivers, plastic in odd places, etc. and so the "ABC" admonition was even more true. At some point in there Rock River Arms (which was a custom 1911 maker started by disgruntled former Les Baer employees) started making ARs and they were considered more or less on par with the "ABCs". I was selling guns at this time and we stocked Colt and Bushmaster, got Armalite when we could (they were very hard to come by for several years), Rock River when they came out, and had the occasional Hesse, DPMS, or Oly if the distributor had a good deal on them. Because of this I got to see a pretty good cross-section of the market at that time.
Near the end of the ban Colt began improving things, and LMT started selling on the commercial market. The industry is very inbred, and Lewis, of Lewis Machine and Tool, had been a prior owner or partner in Armalite/Eagle arms, and involved in other parts of the industry. LMT was selling uppers alone at first, kind up like BCM until recently, and they were essentially matching all of the "milspec" requirements of materials, testing, and assembly not just in dimension like the other makers that claim "milspec".
Then the ban sunset, and the market went bananas. New makers started popping up a few at a time each year. If you had told someone 20 years ago that Smith and Wesson and Ruger were going to be making ARs they would have told you that you were nuts!
The good news is that those new makers slotted in between where Colt and Bushmaster lived in the spectrum. Not to mention with the ban gone the Colt 6920 (which lacks many of the neutered features of the commercial guns) was legal to buy. So Colt's quality improved, Bushmaster stagnated, and everyone else took up places on the spectrum in between.
Today you have a much more educated consumer. Maybe not all (which is kind of what this thread is about), but at least a portion. With the internet there is essentially no excuse for not being an educated consumer of anything you buy. I research everything, from $50k cars to $10 computer routers, and I'm sure many others do to. Better educated consumers mean that manufacturers have to keep up with them. Unless you're like Bushmaster and are able to rest on a reputation fro 15 years ago.
You also have better educated makers as well. When Charles Daly Defense decided they were going to make an AR, they went to the internet and asked people what they want, and many of those people had educated themselves on the internet and knew what to ask for.
Companies like Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic, Rock River, etc. are content to rest on their laurels and fill a niche in the market. Those people that "just can't come up with another $200", and for who that doesn't really matter because they will shoot less in their lifetime than some of us here shoot in a year, are more interested in simply having something to impress the boys at work, scare grandma at the family BBQ, and post pictures on the internet (which is how we arrived at this thread to begin with). The newer makers can't compete with the "well known name, suspect quality, high price" makers so in order to stand out they have to do their best to offer Colt quality, materials, testing, and assembly at Bushmaster prices. These companies have gotten progressively better at doing that. Rock River Arms was incrementally better than Bushmaster, Stag/CMT was then incrementally better than them, Sabre a little better still, etc.
So that's how we got from where we were to where we are. Companies like Bravo Company with their BCM brand have figured out how to take a metric shitload of integrity, and equal amount of knowledge, and a little bit of good business sense and turn out a product that blows the "name brand" guys out of the water and BCM has come closest to that goal of offering Colt quality at Bushmaster prices.
^^^^^^ this was great^^^^^^
That was a fantastic history lesson amigo!!
Many thanks for the ride rob!!
hopeitsfast
10-16-09, 19:53
Thanks Rob S. That was an excellent answer and actually shed some light on the subject for me. I'm probally going to be asking some silly questions because i'm trying to set up one 'do it all' rifle. In the spring i hope to be taking some classes with an instructor here in michigan and just want to make sure i'm buying something of quality THE FIRST TIME because i don't like throwing money away. For now i have a LMT flattop and a troy buis. This is a great thread.
The two folks that this thread was meant to "help" have not or will not post in it, but have exchanged PM's with me.
C4
I already explained to you that I was warned in the locked thread because of what I posted and would not be posting. I also PM'd the staff member what I was being warned about and got no response.
And I explained that if you stick to the facts and first hand experiences that you won't have any issues.
C4
I already explained to you that I was warned in the locked thread because of what I posted and would not be posting. I also PM'd the staff member what I was being warned about and got no response.
Bushmaster (at the time still called "Quality Parts", while their firearms were the only thing called "Bushmasters").
My invoices from 1994/1995 from them show Quality Parts and Bushmaster Firearms. They may have had two entities -- one selling parts and services and one manufacturing the firearms. Whether actual legal entities or two d.b.a. registrations I don't know. I did a few minutes of googling but did not find anything. But both names are on my invoices from that period. (In fact the same invoices were being used in 2003)
oregonshooter
10-17-09, 00:01
I just built my first AR lower and dropped an LMT upper assembly on top after having read quite a bit on this forum and glancing at "the chart" which is very helpful (thanks rob_s) but not the end all that some have mistakenly taken it for I guess.
Butt-hurt... LOL This forum has a lot of "Lord of the Flies" click shit going on, but usually if you ask honestly for help you get it. If you oppose one of the "regulars" thinking or want to suggest they reconsider their line of thought, don't expect anyone to listen. The double standard is strong with some here.
Now, don't get all "butt-hurt" over what I just said either. There was a "thanks" in there also. :p
spamsammich
10-17-09, 00:28
Yeah, not getting butt-hurt over things and having a thick skin goes a long way. Not just here, but in any online-forum in general. I'd love to see the conniption fit some of these more thin skinned fellas have when they go over to lightfighter and Pat tells them to liberally apply some vagisil. I like the fact that the forum rules spell out what is to be expected of participants of this site, too bad they either don't sit well with some people or are ignored outright.
Butt-hurt... LOL This forum has a lot of "Lord of the Flies" click shit going on, but usually if you ask honestly for help you get it. If you oppose one of the "regulars" thinking or want to suggest they reconsider their line of thought, don't expect anyone to listen. The double standard is strong with some here.
That's the way life works. Come into any established group with a non-standard opinion and you're likely to face an icy reception. That happens in a work environment, a kid moving to a new school, a new member of a pro sports team, someone going to a new church, etc.
A lot of us have "known" each other for a very long time online, going way back to the olden-days on ar15.com. I had some epic battles with the likes of Grant, Lumpy196, and Shivan way back when (and even more recently too ;) ), but any one of them (and many others here) would be welcome in my house.
I don't know what it is you posted or where that you feel got you such a poor response, but it seems to have affected your overall attitude and the tone of your posts in general. You seem to enjoy posting allusions to great topics and then refusing to start those topics because you think people are just going to abuse you over it.
Which brings up a good point (to come full circle) about the confidence one has in their opinions. Those that post something and then launch into hysterics when that thing is questioned probably weren't all that confident in the thing to begin with. Which includes registering on a forum they aren't familiar with and posting a picture of their gun from a maker (and covered in junk from a maker) that maybe isn't too well respected on that forum.
Butt-hurt... LOL This forum has a lot of "Lord of the Flies" click shit going on, but usually if you ask honestly for help you get it. If you oppose one of the "regulars" thinking or want to suggest they reconsider their line of thought, don't expect anyone to listen. The double standard is strong with some here.
This brings up another point that I think we should address as well. We have a vetting process for our SMEs and Industry Professionals so that you can be sure you're talking to and getting advice from someone that is, who they say they are. This is done for your benefit so that you know exactly where they are coming from and that the advice or opinions they're offering is backed up with experience.
No body has a problem with offering an opposing view or line of thought but you just might be talking to somebody that has much more experience or has actually "been there and done that" and you should also frame your viewpoint with your first hand experience.
This forum isn't about trying to change others line of thought it's about making sure our own individual views, experiences, training and knowledge are improving based on our own individual needs.
Some guys are going to Iraq, Afghanistan or some other part of the world, some are going on patrol in Anytown, USA, some want to be able to defend their family to the best of their ability, some want to make it through their first training class without any gun related issues and some want to shoot sub-MOA.
It's all in what you need so use the information here accordingly.
The two folks that this thread was meant to "help" have not or will not post in it, but have exchanged PM's with me.
One of them seems to believe that the people in here are trying to justify their more expensive purchase or that they traded a perfectly good (working) Oly/DPMS/BM/ETC for a Colt/LMT/BCM/etc for no apparent reason.
I asked for proof of such things, but to date have not received any links.
Let us also take a minute to clear up some incorrect assumptions on twist rates.
The 1/7 twist will do EVERYTHING the 1/9 twist will do (like shoot 55gr ammo well) AND give you the ability to shoot heavier grain ammo that greatly extends the range of the 556/223.
Couple that with the fact that every barrel I have had to ream (because of stuck casings) was a 1/9 twist. So the question begs to be asked; why would you EVER buy a 1/9 twist barrel???
C4
I posted this on another thread but I believe that it applies here. I think that the main problem is that most people attach their technique to their ego, and most of the time when they ask for advise or opinions, what they really want is validation. When they don't get it they end up with hurt feelings. Same thing when referring to purchases instead of technique.
I already explained to you that I was warned in the locked thread because of what I posted and would not be posting. I also PM'd the staff member what I was being warned about and got no response.
I quoted the post that got you a verbal warning so I didn’t need to respond to your PM. But since you brought it up you were warned because of your condescending tone towards Littlelebowski and for the fact that your post didn’t have anything to do with the topic. Instead you chastised him for using the word castigate.
But to be fair to you, that thread was going to get locked anyway because it was going to turn into a pissing contest.
I just built my first AR lower and dropped an LMT upper assembly on top after having read quite a bit on this forum and glancing at "the chart" which is very helpful (thanks rob_s) but not the end all that some have mistakenly taken it for I guess.
Butt-hurt... LOL This forum has a lot of "Lord of the Flies" click shit going on, but usually if you ask honestly for help you get it. If you oppose one of the "regulars" thinking or want to suggest they reconsider their line of thought, don't expect anyone to listen. The double standard is strong with some here.
Now, don't get all "butt-hurt" over what I just said either. There was a "thanks" in there also. :p
Sometimes if you are the only one that has your POV, you might need to think about the fact that you are wrong.
Just sayin....
C4
Nathan_Bell
10-17-09, 09:40
Ignorant gunstore counter folks.
Gun rags who have never got a gun that wasn't above average.
Advice of a local "gun guy" who has never owned a semiauto center-fire rifle.
Forums that would rather have a moodily lit picture of your new rifle than a real range report and AAR.
All of these cause problems for those looking for a defensive use AR. As these sources are, generally, considered solid sources of information by those who are getting into the AR game. You must realize that most of these are NOT good sources for your purchasing information.
Unless the store specializes in what you are purchasing or has staff that does so, take EVERYTHING you hear in a gunshop with a huge grain of salt.
Gun rags are good for eye candy and an occasional tech tip on how to make your M700 Remington work better, but are stink on ice for getting a real review of a product from a company that buys ad space. "It ran flawlessly, other than one stoppage everyother round"
If I wanted to buy a good upland game shotgun or a light rifle for hunting deer in WV/PA, I would go to the guy who has been shooting these since the '50's. Just realize that this gent will be WAY out of his lane when discussing the merits of a defensive AR.
Pictures are neat and well done ones show that the owner has skills beyond those of many AR owners, they do not mean that this person knows balls about the AR that he has. (not aimed at Stick or Grant) You would be much better served to find the wordy write ups that have no pics, or crappy pics than to scan for the nicest photos.
Belmont31R
10-17-09, 09:59
Ignorant gunstore counter folks.
Gun rags who have never got a gun that wasn't above average.
Advice of a local "gun guy" who has never owned a semiauto center-fire rifle.
Forums that would rather have a moodily lit picture of your new rifle than a real range report and AAR.
All of these cause problems for those looking for a defensive use AR. As these sources are, generally, considered solid sources of information by those who are getting into the AR game. You must realize that most of these are NOT good sources for your purchasing information.
Unless the store specializes in what you are purchasing or has staff that does so, take EVERYTHING you hear in a gunshop with a huge grain of salt.
Gun rags are good for eye candy and an occasional tech tip on how to make your M700 Remington work better, but are stink on ice for getting a real review of a product from a company that buys ad space. "It ran flawlessly, other than one stoppage everyother round"
If I wanted to buy a good upland game shotgun or a light rifle for hunting deer in WV/PA, I would go to the guy who has been shooting these since the '50's. Just realize that this gent will be WAY out of his lane when discussing the merits of a defensive AR.
Pictures are neat and well done ones show that the owner has skills beyond those of many AR owners, they do not mean that this person knows balls about the AR that he has. (not aimed at Stick or Grant) You would be much better served to find the wordy write ups that have no pics, or crappy pics than to scan for the nicest photos.
Gun stores are there to sell guns, and usually whatever they have for sale tends to be the "best" if you know what I mean. They arent going to tell you that DPMS on the wall is built to a lesser standard than a Colt you mentioned which they don't carry. That DPMS is going to be better than the Colt, and cheaper.
Even the class III dealer here sells a bunk of junk parts. Thats why I buy online and get my knowledge from the people on boards like this.
Heavy Metal
10-17-09, 10:37
Ignorant gunstore counter folks.
Gun rags who have never got a gun that wasn't above average.
Advice of a local "gun guy" who has never owned a semiauto center-fire rifle.
Forums that would rather have a moodily lit picture of your new rifle than a real range report and AAR.
All of these cause problems for those looking for a defensive use AR. As these sources are, generally, considered solid sources of information by those who are getting into the AR game. You must realize that most of these are NOT good sources for your purchasing information.
Unless the store specializes in what you are purchasing or has staff that does so, take EVERYTHING you hear in a gunshop with a huge grain of salt.
Gun rags are good for eye candy and an occasional tech tip on how to make your M700 Remington work better, but are stink on ice for getting a real review of a product from a company that buys ad space. "It ran flawlessly, other than one stoppage everyother round"
If I wanted to buy a good upland game shotgun or a light rifle for hunting deer in WV/PA, I would go to the guy who has been shooting these since the '50's. Just realize that this gent will be WAY out of his lane when discussing the merits of a defensive AR.
Pictures are neat and well done ones show that the owner has skills beyond those of many AR owners, they do not mean that this person knows balls about the AR that he has. (not aimed at Stick or Grant) You would be much better served to find the wordy write ups that have no pics, or crappy pics than to scan for the nicest photos.
The secret to reading a gun rag review is not the last paragraph, it is the clues left throughout the article. They will almost never dis an advertiser.
Nathan_Bell
10-17-09, 11:18
The secret to reading a gun rag review is not the last paragraph, it is the clues left throughout the article. They will almost never dis an advertiser.
Yup, but too many do not read it with that critical of an eye and get sucked in.
Now you have these folks convinced that it is the best thing since liced bread due to what they half read while on the throne.
oregonshooter
10-17-09, 13:12
I don't know what it is you posted or where that you feel got you such a poor response, but it seems to have affected your overall attitude and the tone of your posts in general.
And that's how life works also. And I'm not the only one who thought you fanny pack idea was gay, so maybe I'm not wrong, just have a different opinion. :D
Its real easy to talk down an idea without offering a solution. Failure2stop has done the first and I'm offering him the second, it will be a good test of how well the forum walks the talk on helping I think.
30 cal slut
10-17-09, 13:32
Today you have a much more educated consumer...
You also have better educated makers as well. When Charles Daly Defense decided they were going to make an AR...
"I hate The Chart and everything it stands for."
;):p:D
Bill T has been banned from here, last time I checked.Out of curiosity how did you come up with that person? I am not familiar with that username from this site.
telecustom
10-17-09, 14:27
People should not become so personally invested in inanimate objects that they can't stand hearing that the one they have isn't technically the greatest one on the market.
That should go for religious and political beliefs.
That should go for religious and political beliefs.
This has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and comparing one's religious or political beliefs to a BCG is ridiculous.
And that's how life works also. And I'm not the only one who thought you fanny pack idea was gay, so maybe I'm not wrong, just have a different opinion. :D
Its real easy to talk down an idea without offering a solution. Failure2stop has done the first and I'm offering him the second, it will be a good test of how well the forum walks the talk on helping I think.
There you go again. :rolleyes:
God you're sensitive. The whole forum is on "probation" because someone disagreed with you? In a pretty intelligent way borne out of real-world experience, I might add.
So what, you and a bunch of other people don't like the fanny pack thing. Fantastic. The issue here is that I can leave that discussion in that thread, move on with the project because I'm confident in the outcome, and not let it affect the way I post on the rest of the site. You appear to be incapable of doing this. You went backwards in the way that you shoot the gun, for a cockamamie reason, people called you on it, and you've been pouting about it ever since.
Sometimes if you are the only one that has your POV, you might need to think about the fact that you are wrong.
Just sayin....
C4
When you think the whole rest of the world is nuts, it's probably the guy in the mirror that needs to be medicated.
(I think that was my sigline on TOS for quite some time)
Damn, five pages on a question that coulda been summed up with "Yes. We hate your AR." :D
-B
Do we hate your AR???'
I hate your AR when you have a Noveske, BCM, KAC, or DD rifle because I want them and can't afford them at this time.
John_Wayne777
10-17-09, 15:59
Its real easy to talk down an idea without offering a solution. Failure2stop has done the first and I'm offering him the second, it will be a good test of how well the forum walks the talk on helping I think.
So, to be clear, you're "testing" the forum by calling out a Subject Matter Expert who is kind enough to volunteer his time to help moderate the forum...
Since we're in a "testing" mood, I'll test the infraction system.
Whaddya know! It works.
This thread has been like flypaper for bad behavior.
Will I be in trouble for laughing? :p
Jay Cunningham
10-17-09, 16:14
Will I be in trouble for laughing? :p
No.
:D
However, "calling out" a highly valued Industry Professional, one that also happens to volunteer his time moderating the forum, is not going to fly.
"Calling out" M4C as a whole is not going to fly either. oregonshooter, the martyr routine is not going to win you any sympathy here.
That ban feature really does work ;) That guy was a prick.
So, to be clear, you're "testing" the forum by calling out a Subject Matter Expert who is kind enough to volunteer his time to help moderate the forum...
Since we're in a "testing" mood, I'll test the infraction system.
Whaddya know! It works.
Now that made me laugh. Hopefully it doesn't result in me getting put on probation (I'm kidding, kidding :)
This thread has been like flypaper for bad behavior.
I have noticed that threads like these are often like throwing chum in the water for drawing certain people out.
Case in point from ages ago about an infestation of 'those guys.":
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6504&highlight=infestation
You guys hate my AR! I was impatient and not informed. I now know better and will plan to make upgrades to my Bushmaster. It does suck when you find out that you have not made the best purchase that you could have. Oh well. Live and learn right?
I appreciate the knowledge available here. Thanks to all you guys who have the expertise and willingness to help those of us who do not.
This is exactly why I like this site. ARFCOM is filled with thin skinned weenies who may never put 200 rounds through their AR in a year and seem to buy ARs so they can post pictures of them on that site with their latest zombie fighting web gear. This site has more professionals who actually shoot their rifles either for work or competition and carbine classes and know what quality is.
crob- The right attitude(like yours) will go far here.
88redryder88
10-18-09, 09:34
You guys hate my AR! I was impatient and not informed. I now know better and will plan to make upgrades to my Bushmaster. It does suck when you find out that you have not made the best purchase that you could have. Oh well. Live and learn right?
I appreciate the knowledge available here. Thanks to all you guys who have the expertise and willingness to help those of us who do not.
+1.... I made the same mistake.
sandman99and9
10-18-09, 10:12
Now that made me laugh. Hopefully it doesn't result in me getting put on probation (I'm kidding, kidding :)
I have noticed that threads like these are often like throwing chum in the water for drawing certain people out.
Case in point from ages ago about an infestation of 'those guys.":
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6504&highlight=infestation
Mister, you are on double secret probation !!!
Remember that line ??
S.M.
HiggsBoson
10-18-09, 14:02
If you have to ask what people think of your AR, you likely don't want to hear the answer. (Go ahead and ask me how I know...) Are you offended by that and want to throw stones? Lay your credentials on the table and let everyone examine them so we can all decide whether you measure up. But be forewarned: This site hosts some of the foremost experts in the world on the AR-15 FOW, so I hope you brought your man card with you. ;)
He doth like the ape that the higher he clymbes the more he shows his ars.
[c 1594 Bacon Promus 102]
A few poo-flingers have commented that they think there is a double standard at this site. This thread is one example of how those people miss the point. It's not a double standard; it's one standard based on verifiable expertise. IOW: a qualified opinion vs. an unqualified one (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=464854).
First Thank you Grant for this thread .I have seen a Lot of people getting their feelings hurt here because of not doing research on there weapon before they Buy.
I did this, I started a build with Double star parts ,the more I read here the more I began to realize ,I messed up thinking all ARs are basically the same.
I then saw Rob's chart and it got me thinking ,I started selling parts and Buying Colt parts ,I am a broke SOB But I still saved ,scratched and begged and got a COLT M4 Put together.(I still Have the DS Lower for a build for My wife.)
I did not get my feelings hurt or call out Members on this site out as KOOL-AID Drinkers,They Know more than me,shoot more than me and Have more training than me,The Army trained me on the M4, But we all Know how far behind they are.so I listen with the attitude of these guys can teach me and make me a better shooter.and help me make informed decisions on my Rifle.That Might save my life one day.
I am very thankful for all the senior Members here and Yes I do Own a Colt But that is my decision.if you want to Buy a sub-par weapon Platform and then not be able to take someone who know whats best from real world training, Maybe this site is not for the thinned skinned .
In My Books it is the Best around and I think God I found it:D
Nobody has written a good, condensed primer on AR15's. Something akin to what rob did with his market guide to optics a while back. The good info is spread too far out in too many tacked threads. Be kind of nice to have a simple pre-screwup primer that wasn't a spreadsheet. There are a lot of good tacked threads, the best being "oh no I bought brand x before I knew what I was doing."
Banning the disagreeable is easy. The up-front info is hard to find.
Banning the disagreeable is easy. The up-front info is hard to find.
I don't think anyone is banned for disagreeing, but rather the way they act when they voice their disagreement.
Mister, you are on double secret probation !!!
Remember that line ??
S.M.
I remembered it after I looked it up, but it did sound like some of my former supervisors.
Patrick Aherne
10-18-09, 20:06
This thread is comedic gold! I am so sorry I missed it, until now. My favorite part was the guy intending to piss off Rob, the man who wears a yellow visor, by telling him wearing a fanny pack is gay. Doh! That is a fail on SOOO many levels. Hello, we all know fanny packs are gay, but if they work for you who gives two sh!ts?
Nobody has written a good, condensed primer on AR15's. Something akin to what rob did with his market guide to optics a while back. The good info is spread too far out in too many tacked threads. Be kind of nice to have a simple pre-screwup primer that wasn't a spreadsheet. There are a lot of good tacked threads, the best being "oh no I bought brand x before I knew what I was doing."
i think that the current version of the chart is better is this regard because it begins with the Explanation of Features and doesn't get to the Chart until the end.
I don't think anyone is banned for disagreeing, but rather the way they act when they voice their disagreement.
Yep. There's disagreeing, and then there's being flat out disagreeable, spreading stuff that isn't true, etc.
i think that the current version of the chart is better is this regard because it begins with the Explanation of Features and doesn't get to the Chart until the end.
Best out there thus far, by miles. Might do well to have new members read it or at least tell them to read it before they join up.
Patrick Aherne
10-18-09, 23:14
Nobody has written a good, condensed primer on AR15's. Something akin to what rob did with his market guide to optics a while back. The good info is spread too far out in too many tacked threads. Be kind of nice to have a simple pre-screwup primer that wasn't a spreadsheet. There are a lot of good tacked threads, the best being "oh no I bought brand x before I knew what I was doing."
Banning the disagreeable is easy. The up-front info is hard to find.
Seriously: have you looked at Rob's chart? I may make fun of his visor and his fanny pack (not really, I use one too), but he has compiled all the info to allow someone to make an informed decision.
Look at any of the hobby/enthusiast stuff guys get into, motorcycles, cars, watches, cameras, all require research and some experience to get to pro level equipment. Fighting carbines are no different. It requires some research, investment, and most importantly, some good training. Rob's chart just makes it easy on the equipment side of things.
Can we make a test based off the chart/primer a part of signing up? ;)
Seriously: have you looked at Rob's chart?
Of course.
An AR15 done right is Greek to most shooters. It's a difficult rifle to approach unless you get off on the right foot (milspec or better parts). From a variety of sources there is constant, belligerent, even humorous and eloquent moral support for the idiotic idea that all AR parts are created equal, but some people just charge $100-200 more. It's an annoying stumbling block. Remember the old "I can build a better rifle for cheaper" writeup? Someone putting their faith in a substandard AR brand is the near functional equivalent in their mind of building a better rifle for cheaper. But while you can have better, you can't have better and cheaper.
I can only say in my case AR's were difficult to approach and I had sent a lot of lead downrange in pistols and AK's, I can only imagine how hard they are to understand for casual shooters, regular sportsmen, or the great unwashed masses. People look at the $200 they can shave off the price and say "hey, I could buy a bunch of pmags (or even more crap mags) and ammo if I go on the cheap."
In retrospect AK's are really easy to get into and merely hard to learn how to shoot well beyond stone throwing distance. If you have zero interest in shooting the weapon in a professional manner, then it's no wonder why AK's are highly thought of most places. I was real glad when I saw Robs chart in a publication you could find on any newsstand. That's the kind of info that gets around and makes people think before buying crap.
First Thank you Grant for this thread .I have seen a Lot of people getting their feelings hurt here because of not doing research on there weapon before they Buy.
I did this, I started a build with Double star parts ,the more I read here the more I began to realize ,I messed up thinking all ARs are basically the same.
I then saw Rob's chart and it got me thinking ,I started selling parts and Buying Colt parts ,I am a broke SOB But I still saved ,scratched and begged and got a COLT M4 Put together.(I still Have the DS Lower for a build for My wife.)
I did not get my feelings hurt or call out Members on this site out as KOOL-AID Drinkers,They Know more than me,shoot more than me and Have more training than me,The Army trained me on the M4, But we all Know how far behind they are.so I listen with the attitude of these guys can teach me and make me a better shooter.and help me make informed decisions on my Rifle.That Might save my life one day.
I am very thankful for all the senior Members here and Yes I do Own a Colt But that is my decision.if you want to Buy a sub-par weapon Platform and then not be able to take someone who know whats best from real world training, Maybe this site is not for the thinned skinned .
In My Books it is the Best around and I think God I found it:D
You are welcome and glad I could be of service.
C4
Wholly Crap... A thread that actually tells folks that there choices are a piss poor one.... and that they don't have a clue, and don't know it...that's classic...
The thing I like about this site and one that is noticeably different then TOS if anyone takes notice, is the amount of posts in training and tactics vs. buying new shinny things for an AR post.... kinda tells you something.....
Wholly Crap... A thread that actually tells folks that there choices are a piss poor one.... and that they don't have a clue, and don't know it...that's classic...
The thing I like about this site and one that is noticeably different then TOS if anyone takes notice, is the amount of posts in training and tactics vs. buying new shinny things for an AR post.... kinda tells you something.....
;)
Substance matters.
C4
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