View Full Version : Help the new guy
First off hi to everyone. I've been going over this forum for a while now and finally signed up.
I was wondering though if you guys could give me some direction. I am new to AR rifles having only shot one before. I would love to get one but the prices are extremely high.
My question is, what would be a decent, cheap AR for me to start with? I need it to be as inexpensive as possible while still leaving me room to upgrade as time goes on, somewhat of a project gun.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
everything you need to shoot- just add ammo. a guy on a budget, looking to get the most for his money, would be a complete fool to buy anything else... don't mean to be all elitist about it, but it's true.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM
everything you need to shoot- just add ammo. a guy on a budget, looking to get the most for his money, would be a complete fool to buy anything else... don't mean to be all elitist about it, but it's true.
Thanks and don't worry about being an "elitist", I am looking for any and all possibilities and opinions.
Outlander Systems
10-15-09, 12:50
Why, glad you asked:
Daniel Defense XV (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=XV-M4&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dgun%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html)
Seriously, even if it means saving more / waiting longer, get the best base rifle you can afford, and worry about the other stuff later. You can't go wrong with either, but if I was starting out, I'd probably go with BKB's reference. Middy is the way to go, bro.
IMO for a base rifle I don't think you should spend more than $1500. You want something cheap/affordable but not to the point where it's so poor in quality that everything you "upgrade" ends up costing another rifle. With that said, the rifles already mentioned would be great for a rifle that would require little to no major upgrades unless you just wanted to spend some bucks and customize it to your liking. BCM, Colt, Smith&Wesson, and Daniel Defense are going to be a good bang for your buck. Also make sure you read all the stickies to give you a better informed choice for your purchase. I mean to get advice is good but you don't want to buy a rifle just because someone on the internet said it's the best. Make sure it's to your liking and suits your needs. If you want to get real crazy you could always build your own rifle :) Good Luck!
First off hi to everyone. I've been going over this forum for a while now and finally signed up.
I was wondering though if you guys could give me some direction. I am new to AR rifles having only shot one before. I would love to get one but the prices are extremely high.
My question is, what would be a decent, cheap AR for me to start with? I need it to be as inexpensive as possible while still leaving me room to upgrade as time goes on, somewhat of a project gun.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Welcome to the forum.
Some questions for you:
1. What is your price range?
2. How do you intend to use the weapon (training, 3 gun, varmint, etc)?
C4
Best deal I've seen is contacting Ranier and asking for a DD for $999 with $250 gift certificate towards DD stuff. May be gone by now.
That aside, plan on spending at least a grand.
Another vote for the BCM Middy, I love mine!
Thanks for all the opinions, I was really hoping to stay under $1000 but the quality is important.
And about building one, wouldn't that require some special tools that would eliminate any savings from doing it myself? I have never built a rifle but I am mechanical inclined so that wouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for all the opinions, I was really hoping to stay under $1000 but the quality is important.
And about building one, wouldn't that require some special tools that would eliminate any savings from doing it myself? I have never built a rifle but I am mechanical inclined so that wouldn't be a problem.
you couldn't build the rifle i posted above for less- in fact, even without tools you'd spend about $180 more if you tried. and that's including the 15% excise tax stuck to complete rifles.
the tools to build it right will run somewhere around $150-200... receiver blocks (2), wrenches (at least 2), torque wrench, roll-pin punches, spring-loaded punch, vice, standard punches, brass hammer... and jigs, depending on how stripped you get. all that;s priobably about $300 or more.
Building a stripped lower receiver doesn't require specialized tools and isn't hard at all. Building an upper receiver is more daunting for the first timer so it might be wise to buy a good upper fully assembled and factory test fired.
I just did that for my first and only AR. The lower receiver plus parts kit and telestock cost $260. I bought an ArmaLite U15A4CB middy upper for $500 and found a used Bushmaster carry handle locally for $63. I also needed a $50 front sight since my upper came with a railed gas block but you can get uppers with a front sight mounted. My rifle came in right at $900 and is a quality unit.
Of course if you want optics and/or a more exotic configuration you can quickly add 50-100% more to the price. You won't get a warranty building your own but if your parts are good, a home build can be much better (and configured the way you want) than an entry level AR off the shelf for $900.
i've built every rifle i've ever owned, so my opinion might be jilted... but does anyone actually pay any attention to a warranty with a rifle? a good company will back up their product, warranty or no, and that goes for individual parts too.. and, generally, it's less hassle just fixing it yourself or having a good local gunsmith do it than sending it back to the manfer.
That BCM is the cat's a$$ followed not to far by the DDXV plus Grant is a class guy to deal with.
Calling him would probably be among the best moves you could make he also has a great deal on a basic S&W
Welcome! From a fellow newbie to another!
You should really read this thread and don't take anything to personally:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39614
The honest answer to your question is simple: If you want an AR you will be within 300 dollars (high or low) of 1000 bucks. That means to go basic top tier you would have to save 600 more then if you were to buy bottom of the bucket. Trust me when I say that once you start saving, an extra couple of hundred is not hard to come by. Do the research, wait two more months and make a good purchase!
You can make a great lightweight, 16'' middy for less than $1000
http://dsgarms.com/index.cfm/product/2583/cavalry-arms-mkii-lower-receiver-stripped%E2%80%93%E2%80%93-black-with-daniel-defense-lower-parts-kit.cfm
$164 dollars for a complete lower (well, you have to put the lower together which is easy)
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm
$475 barreled upper
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm
$150 BCG
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm
$25 charging handle
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-MBUS-Rear-Back-Up-Iron-Sight-Black-p/mag246%20black.htm
$55 rear sight
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm
$20 handguards
That is roughly $950 with ffl costs and shipping included. There are no sacrifices made as far as quality goes. I wish that Cavarms deal came out before I bought my last one. You can also go with a complete CMMG upper from aimsurplus for a bit cheaper than the BCM.
you couldn't build the rifle i posted above for less- in fact, even without tools you'd spend about $180 more if you tried. and that's including the 15% excise tax stuck to complete rifles.
the tools to build it right will run somewhere around $150-200... receiver blocks (2), wrenches (at least 2), torque wrench, roll-pin punches, spring-loaded punch, vice, standard punches, brass hammer... and jigs, depending on how stripped you get. all that;s priobably about $300 or more.
Depending where you live, you can go on your states forums (like calguns or ingunowners) and ask to borrow the tools. Many people will do it for you for free. Also, torquing a barrel onto a reciever believe it or not doesn't require a torque wrench. You have a very broad range: anywhere from ~30 ft lbs to 80 ft lbs. Here's a little tidbit from ar15.com
Q2. What about the torquing three times, to 80ft/lbs like the TM says?
A2. While using a torque wrench is never a bad idea, it is not required. Snug it up, three times, then line up with next gas tube hole. Sometimes this will take a lot of force, sometimes just a little. If you arent sure, or nervous, go to the local auto parts store and borrow a torque wrench for ft. pounds. The point of snugging it up three times, is to mate the aluminum upper receiver threads together with the barrel nut.
With a new barrel and a new bolt, you shouldn't run into any problems with headspace.
If you do plan on buying, all you really need is a barrel wrench and upper block (vice and punches too, but most garages have those). These will come in handy later on so they are a good investment.
While I agree that building the upper is not always the best decision, it depends on what he may want to do and his resources.
look on the EE I picked up a complete new BCM upper for $550 shipped thats like getting the bc group handguards and charging handle for $50... I've seen complete assembled lowers for $265 add a rear sight and you'd be into a good AR for around $850... It seems to be a buyers market right now there are some great deals out there... Putting togeather a striped is very easy if you can change a light bulb you can put togeather a lower... The only special tool i use is a stock wrench so I don't ching up the castle nut... I made my own roll pin punches and starters and they work well...
Also, torquing a barrel onto a reciever believe it or not doesn't require a torque wrench. You have a very broad range: anywhere from ~30 ft lbs to 80 ft lbs.
unless you've been doing it for a while, you need to have a torque wrench. most people have no clue whatsoever what 30 or 80 ft/lbs feels like, and can easily under or over do it. the biggest problem, and the reason even i still need a torque wrench from time to time, is when you get toward the far end of 80 and still haven't lined up the holes. especially considering most people don't keep 10 extra barrel nuts lying around.
My first lower was with an A2 stock, so NO SPECIAL TOOLS needed, whatsoever.
I went out to the toolbox and grabbed a handful of tools and went to town.
I did make the job easier by carving a 2x4 block of wood to shove in the magwell, so I could clamp that in a vice and work easier. There is a polymer thingy does the same thing for maybe $30.
If you want a collapsible stock, like from BCM for $75 complete, you should get the $30 wrench.
HOWEVER, you're looking at around $275, and for just over $300, you can get an LMT from Grant. You do get to learn from building, but for your first, why not get a top quality piece?
I agree with: shop ar15.com's EE and find a quality complete upper. Two local friends of mine took my recommendation and bought lightly used BCM uppers for good prices.
So if you're careful and picky, you can get a great used AR under a grand.
WOW, I didn't expect this much insight. Thanks. I'm not sure what I am going to do since I think it would be fun and a learning experience to build one, but I also don't want to screw it up.
As to the tools I have most of whats been mentioned expcept a barrel wrench so building a quality AR might actually come out cheaper than I thought.
Either way I have some more saving to do. Thanks again to everyone.
I have never built one, but from what I have learned on this site, I would suggest just buying an upper with barrel to avoid the barrel install. Plus then you don't need the barrel wrench!;)
<------ Really wants a 6920
Heres how I see if, this is coming from some in a position similar to yours. Ive done all l the research, I can go 2 ways I can build a gun for probably 1K or I can buy one for about the same price. This is with all quality parts. There are Del Tons you can get for around 700 and I could build a super cheapie for probably a bit over 600, my problem is again quality parts, you get what you pay for. The parts you can "save" money on are all the parts that you dont want to skimp on, Ie LPKs, Barrel, BCGs. o what would end up happening if you spend more money upgrading the gun to get to the level of the more expensive ones, it ends up being a wash in the end. therefore I decided that I would just bite the bullet and wait and get a good one. I guarantee, at least if your like me, you will kick yourself everytime if you dont. Especially if there's ever another ban, I mean lets be honest if you couldn't get ARs anymore what would rather have a Del Ton or similar or a Colt or similar, I know what I would choose.
Either Cry now and spend the money on quality or Cry later when you have to spend more because you tried to cheap out and have to fix it.
Al SwearengenŽ
10-16-09, 13:11
I found myself saving more money building one by searching online for parts at the best deal. The most money will have to go into the upper assembly.
And about building one, wouldn't that require some special tools that would eliminate any savings from doing it myself? I have never built a rifle but I am mechanical inclined so that wouldn't be a problem.
I just finished building my first AR and the only tools I needed were:
My feet-improvised vise grip.
Vise grip pliers
Complete punch tool, with bronze/plastic mallet
Screwdriver
Needle nose pliers
Masking tape.
That's it and I built this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/CompAR15003.jpg
Specs:
Rock River Arms stripped lower and stock.
DPMS lower parts kit.
Bravo Company 16" M4 Chrome Lined upper.
Brownells/Midway charging handle assmbly with military latch
Bushmaster bolt carrier assembly.
Double Star detachable carry handle.
Total price I spent: $950.
Al SwearengenŽ
10-16-09, 13:12
WOW, I didn't expect this much insight. Thanks. I'm not sure what I am going to do since I think it would be fun and a learning experience to build one, but I also don't want to screw it up.
If you can change the oil on your car, then you can build an AR.
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