View Full Version : Does it matter which lower you use ?
Does it matter which brand of lower you use as long as it's in spec? I'm kind of having a debate on another thread.
I say the lower doesn't make any difference in the quality of your build as long as the tolerances are correct.
Someone else seems to think one brand of lower is better than another.
Would some experts please clarify this. Real experts.
and not just your opinion.
ever talked to your doctor about valium?
ever talked to your doctor about valium?
Now now. Be nice to the younglings.
To quote Sinister, one of the esteemed SME's on this very subject:
Your concern about the durability and serviceability of your gear is natural -- you don't want to think you got screwed or made a poor choice. Get over it.
*snip*
Shoot the damn gun until the parts fail, then replace them. Just like any other military weapon or machine. You'll get better feedback than wondering if it would be nicer with Colt, Gucci, or Versace engraved on it.
Damn near every gun I own is now a Frankengun. It may have a certain manufacturer's name stamped on the side, but the internals and components are no longer original. I don't own any guns that should be behind glass at the Smithsonian. It may be a character flaw but I'd rather wear them out than let them rust away. They do me no good in the back of the safe.
No machine is perfect. No machine lasts forever. You should see what our guys do to their issued weapons as soon as they come out of the box, plastic wrapper, and vapor barrier paper.
*snip*
You should see the raised eyebrows when folks see the SGW - Olympic Arms engraving on my lower. It just holds the parts.
BKBooo I do tend to micro manage and pay close attention to detail.What are you really trying to say ? I agree with what you posted on the other thread.
BKBooo I do tend to micro manage and pay close attention to detail.What are you really trying to say ?
i'm trying to say it seems like you have an above average standing anxiety level, from your posts i've seen, and that you might want to try to relax a little. starting a thread like this, especially on a topic that's been really well covered, because one guy rips on your lower, out of another 20 guys who said "nice stick!" is sort of wacky.
i think you should stop talking about your gun and go shoot it for a while... i got 5 bucks says if you put 1,000 rounds through it in the next couple weeks you'll find a level of satisfaction with your gun and yourself that you're never going to get online, and won't give a flying eff about anyone's opinions of your stick- good or bad.
just some thoughts from some dude on M4C.. don't read into it too much.
i'm trying to say it seems like you have an above average standing anxiety level, from your posts i've seen, and that you might want to try to relax a little. starting a thread like this, especially on a topic that's been really well covered, because one guy rips on your lower, out of another 20 guys who said "nice stick!" is sort of wacky.
i think you should stop talking about your gun and go shoot it for a while... i got 5 bucks says if you put 1,000 rounds through it in the next couple weeks you'll find a level of satisfaction with your gun and yourself that you're never going to get online, and won't give a flying eff about anyone's opinions of your stick- good or bad.
just some thoughts from some dude on M4C.. don't read into it too much.
gotcha !So far I've shot it 5 times to test the function of it.I'm ready to go sight her in now. I wish it would quit raining. also thanks for your input
Guns are happier when it's wet outside. :)
Mine talks back if she hasn't gotten muddy in awhile.
me and my SPR are gonna be sitting soaking in the rain for 11-12 hours every day 'till i bring home a decent size buck, starting tomorrow.
and remember: if it ain't rainin', you ain't trainin'.
PRGGodfather
10-15-09, 16:29
Yup-yup! If it ain't raining, it ain't training! Neither you nor your stick will melt, I promise...
Only matters if you care what the rollmark looks like.
Lowers are not lowers. A Model 1 Sales lower, or DPMS, is not the same as a Colt, LMT, Noveske, or DD lower. Only Colt has the TDP and when others build it gets into tolerance stacking, or, in the case of a very few, an even better product.
Lowers are not lowers. Correct me if I'm wrong.
*sigh* Wrong, re-read what Sinister said above. Then self-flagellate with a MS2.
KellyTTE- Doesn't contradict my statement. Flagellate myself with an MS2? Why would I do that? A VCAS is a much better product(for me) and I have several at hand. Much more convenient.
So, what you are saying is that a Model 1 Sales lower is just as good as a Colt, LMT, Noveske, or DD? Aren't they more reliable manufacturers that take the time to ensure their products are as close to the TDP, or better, as possible?
When you have a gentleman who's round counts are in the millions, and he says 'doesn't mean shit, its a device to hold parts', I listen. Sure there are obviously inferior lowers (cast, whatever), but by and large, in a time of CAD, CAE & CNC there are plenty of good lowers out there to be had.
Agree, don't agree, whatever, but there's a reason he says what he says.
Kelly- Not knocking Sinister. Much respect and have PM'd him with questions.
But, what you are saying is lowers are not all the same. Your words(paraphrasing).
If you had the choice of DPMS or Colt, which would you pick? The TDP is a baseline and I'm going to go with the Colt. Wouldn't you?
I'm not trying to argue with you but I feel it is important for those that are new to AR's to let them know that all are NOT equal.
Seriously, wouldn't you pick several other lowers over DPMS?
i would pick lowers over DPMS because I do have at least that much vanity... but the fact of the matter is, a DPMS lower really isn't any more likely to be out of spec than just about any other manfr. in fact, they're less likely to be out of spec than a lot of these beloved small-batch receivers, because of their size- the bigger the company, the better the machinery, the more consistent the machining of parts like receivers.
it's other parts that have a lot of room for error that these companies **** up- like barrels and small parts, that don't get produced on large 3 or 5 axis CNCs.
it's just not that easy to screw up... everyone uses CNC for receivers, and everyone follows basically the same prints
I'm saying that you're overthinking the issue.
Assuming, that I had a choice between a stripped DPMS lower and a Colt stripped lower, I'd spend the money on the DPMS, build it with a quality lpk (LMT, BCM) and use the saved money for something like training or a optic that works.
It holds parts, nothing more.
I can also state the fact that lowers "have a name" on them. I had a cast DPMS lower that I pumped untold thousands through(still going strong with him), traded the whole gun to a buddy for a full size Colt that I wanted-it was more of the configurations that we wanted to have. I have the Stop Sgn lower and a forged DPMS-nothing wrong with them.
I'm saying that you're overthinking the issue.
Assuming, that I had a choice between a stripped DPMS lower and a Colt stripped lower, I'd spend the money on the DPMS, build it with a quality lpk (LMT, BCM) and use the saved money for something like training or a optic that works.
It holds parts, nothing more.
This is why I bought a DPMS instead of another brand. I knew the lower doesn't make a difference in the quality of your build.So long as the other parts are quality part you'll have a quality build regardless of the lower you used.I am correct on this assumption ?
This is why I bought a DPMS instead of another brand. I knew the lower doesn't make a difference in the quality of your build. So long as the other parts are quality part you'll have a quality build regardless of the lower you used.I am correct on this assumption ?
Seriously, if you're looking to validate your assumption, I'm not the SME on the subject. I'm just a guy that bangs on a keyboard like most everyone else. Sinister is right, all parts fail eventually, starting out with quality parts buys you some time, but you'll have to swap parts eventually. Quit analyzing it and just go shoot more.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-16-09, 10:49
I had a Oly lower once that I had to file down the front near the pivot pin openings and open up the mag well a bit to get it to work. Ran fine till I sold it. I've thought about getting more Oly lowers and use and WOA parts kit and a Geiselle trigger with a Noveske upper, just to see who it pisses off.
Rock-N-Ruin
10-16-09, 10:53
Yep!!! Just go shoot the hell out of it.. Kill some harmless, innocent popcans and paperplates.. If it's buggin ya that much, ya can change the lower out for a different one quite easily and inexpensively.. Go grab a "blem" Noveske lower, sell the DPMS lower (since it's causing ya alot of anxiety) or off the whole lower and replace with a bare bones LMT for a few hundred bucks.. It really is a buyers market right now.. The rest of your build is great, don't get me wrong, but save yourself some stress.. Check out the EE on here and the other board, there's lots of good deals right now.. I would try some pmags though (you'll like em)... Good luck. Once again, it's just my opinion.. No charge. Rock.
In other words a DPMS lower is as good as a Colt.There I said it what kind of comments will I get from the Colt crowd ?
I would say you're wrong.:D
militarymoron
10-16-09, 13:00
I say the lower doesn't make any difference in the quality of your build as long as the tolerances are correct.
by 'quality' - what do you mean? 'Functionality' alone, or are your referring to the use of the adjective 'quality' to mean 'having a high degree of excellence' in a more comprehensive meaning? a badly finished lower with all the holes in the right place can function, but it doesn't make it a 'quality' part as understood in the general sense of the word. to me, 'quality' means more than 'it works - good enough' in more aspects than functionality but attention to detail as well.
functionally, if the lower is in spec, the parts fit, and it works - it doesn't matter what the brand is, if that's all you're looking for.
but to say that all lowers are "the same" as far as quality goes is technically incorrect. whether those differences matter to you (other than function), is personal preference.
Al SwearengenŽ
10-16-09, 13:14
The only difference is the name, but quality is pretty much the same.
I chose a Rock River Arms, why? Great quality and the name. If I were to get another one, it'll probably be a Bushmaster, DPMS or another Rock. That just me.
functionally, if the lower is in spec, the parts fit, and it works - it doesn't matter what the brand is, if that's all you're looking for.
but to say that all lowers are "the same" as far as quality goes is technically incorrect. whether those differences matter to you (other than function), is personal preference.
by this, DPMS lowers are far better "quality" than colt lowers.
:)
by 'quality' - what do you mean? 'Functionality' alone, or are your referring to the use of the adjective 'quality' to mean 'having a high degree of excellence' in a more comprehensive meaning? a badly finished lower with all the holes in the right place can function, but it doesn't make it a 'quality' part as understood in the general sense of the word.
I approach it from the standpoint of:
If I'm going to build a rockcrushing, run over everything in its path 4x4, no reason to start by using a Bentley. A Chevy 1500 or a F150 will do fine. Form follows function.
militarymoron
10-17-09, 01:22
I approach it from the standpoint of:
If I'm going to build a rockcrushing, run over everything in its path 4x4, no reason to start by using a Bentley. A Chevy 1500 or a F150 will do fine. Form follows function.
that's not an accurate analogy. a bentley is a semi-custom, limited production vehicle. a colt lower (for example) is not a semi-custom, limited production item. it's a widely available item built to govt specs.
a comparison of a military humvee (built to govt spec) to a chevy 1500 or F150 would be more accurate to this discussion.
that's not an accurate analogy. a bentley is a semi-custom, limited production vehicle. a colt lower (for example) is not a semi-custom, limited production item. it's a widely available item built to govt specs.
a comparison of a military humvee (built to govt spec) to a chevy 1500 or F150 would be more accurate to this discussion.
I suppose the same could be said for the HMMWV analogy. HMMWVs might be able to absorb particular types of damage well, but they're very very very finicky platforms. A F150 might not absorb anywhere near as many bullets, but it also doesn't eat gear reduction hubs and transfer cases like candy. 'Mil-Spec' in the case of the AM General HMMWV is pretty sad.
Regardless, I think Sinister's point is very valid and I don't see any reason doubt his wisdom on the subject. How many lowers of ANY make has ANYONE on here worn out? Seriously, its a silly issue.
militarymoron
10-17-09, 02:06
I suppose the same could be said for the HMMWV analogy.
sure, if you want the argument to go on endlessly.
what i said doesn't contradict sinister at all. are all lowers created equally in all aspects? no. do all the aspects matter when it comes to function? no. do the other aspects matter at all? yes, to some people; no, to some people. beyond function, it's personal preference.
what we seem to be arguing about is the definition of the word 'quality' - if it pertains to aspects in addition to function.
My take on lowers in general is this...
You're generally going to wind up with a carbine into which you have $1k-$1.5k invested. Given that even the cheapest lower is $100, and even the most expensive (billet and pricing based on rarity aside) are $200 at most. In the gran scheme of things from a financial standpoint, using a lower from a maker with a spotty reputation makes no sense to me. If DPMS, Oly, etc. can't get their complete guns right and choose to ignore the QA/QC process on complete guns, why would I want to safe $50 by using one of their lowers that may suffer from the same problem?
I'm currently putting together my super-billy-badass top shelf AR. The upper alone retails for $1500, I'm putting a $250 stock on it, a $170 trigger in it, etc. I chose one of the Sully lowers from Defensive Edge for this project because I think it is one of the best quality lowers you can buy with some of the smartest manufacturing and machining methods I've seen. Know what the premium on that lower, over and above some of the hobby makers, was? $100 more. In a rifle that will ultimately weigh in at over $3-4k with optics and can, a $100 premium to get a lower that I KNOW is good and have confidence in, prior to registering it as an SBR, is worth it to me.
(I am also assembling the lower complete with all parts and will test-fire with a non-NFA upper to check for function prior to filing the SBR paperwork. Trust, but verify.)
Rob- Sounds like a great gun. Can't wait for pics and range report.
Lowers are not lowers. A Model 1 Sales lower, or DPMS, is not the same as a Colt, LMT, Noveske, or DD lower. Only Colt has the TDP and when others build it gets into tolerance stacking, or, in the case of a very few, an even better product.
Oh lord...
You deserve the beating that you will soon get. :)
A stripped lower is just a container to hold parts. Nothing more.
So long as the lower receiver is in spec, it matters not who's roll mark is on the side.
Fill it with good parts and it will run.
A stripped lower is just a container to hold parts. Nothing more.
So long as the lower receiver is in spec, it matters not who's roll mark is on the side.
Fill it with good parts and it will run.
Part in blue is the problem.
I wouldn't trust any of the hobby makers to get the specs right.
But in theory I agree with you, and I think that by and large these days 75% of the lowers are, on average, all about equal, and maybe 20% do something to put them over the top (like the Sully), and 5% do something to be thought of as complete shit (like the Carbon 15).
Yes, it does matter. It's called tolerance stacking. A lower can be in spec, which is in and of itself suspect since only Colt has the TDP, and just barely be in spec. I'd rather buy a Colt that is truly in spec. That's just me. But the argument that all lowers are the same is bull. If a manufacturer doesn't have access to the TDP, how can they be sure they are "as good as?" Reverse engineering isn't the same.
Quality control. Not all companies have the same quality control. I think this is indisputable. What one company says is in spec, another may say is not. This is the most important aspect of calling a lower "in spec." I don't think most people on M4C are going to take a Mega, DPMS, Oly, RRA, or BM receiver over a Colt, DD, LMT, or Noveske.
If were are talking internals as well, then no, they are not all the same.
Why would I get a "deserved" beating for offering an honest(hopefully educated) opinion? Do you say "deserved" b/c you simply disagree? Could it be you represent Mega receivers?
What it boils down to is: All lowers are not created equal.
Could it be you represent Mega receivers?.
Your paranoia... is off the chart. :rolleyes:
Everything Colt makes is golden; SP1.
Enough said to dispel that line of crap.
I consider it IN SPEC when all the parts go together perfectly without any problems during installation.
Then when I go to the range and it fires each and every time the trigger is pulled after thousands of rounds.
That's how I can tell if it's IN SPEC or not.
If it did not do all this I would consider it OUT OF SPEC. This is the best indicator or method I have.
Mega- Paranoia? LOL! You were making the case all lowers are equal and your screen name is Mega. Are you aware that manufacturer's and their proxy's prowl this and other sites? My question is quite legitimate. The fact you are apparently unaware of this and then call me paranoid simply means you are refusing to refute my assertions.
Assertions that are true. Not all lowers are the same.
Back to paranoid. What do I have to be paranoid about? All my AR's are Colt. I'm GTG. Just put the 6933 through a carbine course and it ran like a dream. I have a reliable battle rifle. When the 6920 gets ran hard, I'll most likely be able to say it's a GTG battle rifle.
You must have a BM, Oly, DPMS, etc. Methinks you're the paranoid one trying to justify your POS.
2nd- I feel you but the TDP is what qualifies as in spec. I wrote you a good joke, where's mine? Hope you have a great weekend. All your son's friends are going to be jealous over his rifle. It's going to create an arms race.
My lowers say Bushmaster on my SBR and Smith and Wesson on my SPR....thats about the only thing that is the same as it was from the factory though. Trigger, grip, stock, all that are from something other than what the factory put in them.
I have a post ban Bushmaster lower from around 96 or 97 I think is when I bought it. Does anyone know if Bushmaster was doing cast or forged back then?
To my knowledge, Bushmaster never did cast. I had one from the early 90's and it was forged.
To my knowledge, Bushmaster never did cast. I had one from the early 90's and it was forged.
That makes me feel better :) Thanks for the info..it seems like a good lower it seems like its in spec. as it seats all the mags well and it drops them all free, so I might just get a nice upper for it, but if it was cast I'd cast it right off (yep pretty bad pun).
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