View Full Version : TASER will no longer defend deployments to the chest?
SWATcop556
10-18-09, 14:13
My department is currently distributing a memorandum where TASER has decided they will no longer defend a deployment or drive stun to the chest area of suspects. This decision is based on several recent deaths due to encounters with suspects suffering from excited delirium. They will still defend deployments to the back, arms, and legs as being acceptable.
Anyone else hearing this or did I just miss it until now?
NCPatrolAR
10-18-09, 14:18
We just got the memo about 3 days ago. WHile I didnt see anything about them no longer defending hits to the chest; we are now to try to limit shots there. They want us to go for the abdominal area, legs, and backs as primary targets.
SWATcop556
10-18-09, 14:24
Good to know. My department's memo said they would no longer defend the chest shots. I think the department is getting ready to make a policy of no chest shots unless deadly force is necessary.
If that's true I won't have the taser in my hand to begin with.
NCPatrolAR
10-18-09, 14:40
Good to know. My department's memo said they would no longer defend the chest shots. I think the department is getting ready to make a policy of no chest shots unless deadly force is necessary.
If that's true I won't have the taser in my hand to begin with.
I'm dealing with some of our people concerning the abdominal shots and increased chance of a barb striking the groin (which is considered deadly force around here)
SWATcop556
10-18-09, 14:52
I'm dealing with some of our people concerning the abdominal shots and increased chance of a barb striking the groin (which is considered deadly force around here)
Same here. With the possible increase of a groin shot I think they will make a blanket policy of no front torso shots.
If you have some success on your end please PM me. I'm receiving a lot of opposition to anything on the front torso.
DARK-KNIGHT
10-18-09, 15:54
I haven't heard anything from my department about chest shots yet, but i'm sure it's coming....
Kentucky Cop
10-18-09, 16:12
If I am fighting a suspect who is actively resisting me and the fight is on, "trying" to shoot him in the stomach area is going to be last thing on my mind as I depoly my taser. I have been on several deployments where officers have tried to shoot a suspect who is standing and actively resisting, red dot on chest, and as the probes are flying at him only one lands and the other misses. The fight continues. Most of the time your just lucky to have both probes hit a suspect who is just outside your reactionary gap.
I know that distance and all that will come into play but it really narrows down the target area if we have to go for the stomach. Just my .2 cents and I am not in a supervisory position, but I am in a specialized unit where the taser's are frequently used. Its a shame that it has come to this. Its a great tool to use when the opportunity presents itself. Also, tis the season to be cold and the bubble coats are in full effect. Those things are probe stoppers!:mad:
.....sigh. I will step down now. Sorry, Carry on!;)
KY Cop
I'm so glad that we never went to the Taser. Once of the local departments here has documented three Taser deployments and two of those as fatalities. The city attorney is going batsh!t over the potential civil liability. I see a shift back to OC, impact weapons, and the use of deadly force and the removal of Tasers from the arsenal.
Alpha Sierra
10-18-09, 16:32
Just bring back the sap and the blackjack and be done with it.
Kentucky Cop
10-18-09, 16:36
I miss the 36" hickory stick. Everything is polycarbonate now....ugh.:cool:
I'm so glad that we never went to the Taser. Once of the local departments here has documented three Taser deployments and two of those as fatalities. The city attorney is going batsh!t over the potential civil liability. I see a shift back to OC, impact weapons, and the use of deadly force and the removal of Tasers from the arsenal.
I disagree. Tasers are more popular than they ever have been, and will continue to be despite excited delirium deaths. They are not magic, but they are incredibly valuable asset in certain types of conflicts.
I don't have it on this machine, but someone should post the full text of the advisory Taser sent out.
I'm dealing with some of our people concerning the abdominal shots and increased chance of a barb striking the groin (which is considered deadly force around here)
Why would a taser barb to the groin be considered deadly force?
Just curious.
Why would a taser barb to the groin be considered deadly force?
I consider my "groin" a vital organ. ;)
I consider my "groin" a vital organ. ;)
Well, the fact you might want to die while being tazed in the groin doesn't necessarily make it deadly force. I was just curious if it was just "considered" (or in other words defined by statute as) deadly force or if it was actually potentially life threatening.
SWATcop556
10-18-09, 21:45
Here's a link to the TASER release.
http://www.taser.com/training/Documents/TASER%20Training%20Bulletin%2015_0%20Medical%20Research%20with%20Product%20Warnings_2.pdf
I just finished reading it and it does not specifically say that they will not defend it anymore.
I sould have clarified. That information was in my departments memo. I'm going to have a meeting with our Use of Force Instructor on Monday for clarification. Right now our administration is making a blanket policy of no TASER deployments to the chest, until further notice. :confused:
variablebinary
10-18-09, 21:47
I consider my "groin" a vital organ. ;)
Bet your ass if someone gets sterilized, they will be richer than Trump from the following lawsuit
Kentucky Cop
10-18-09, 21:54
Bet your ass if someone gets sterilized, they will be richer than Trump from the following lawsuit
Wow! Didnt think about that..:eek:
Cascades236
10-19-09, 16:07
I'm so glad that we never went to the Taser. Once of the local departments here has documented three Taser deployments and two of those as fatalities. The city attorney is going batsh!t over the potential civil liability. I see a shift back to OC, impact weapons, and the use of deadly force and the removal of Tasers from the arsenal.
I myself have been involved in a Taser deployment that had it not been around would have resulted in the use of deadly force (lethal cover already had taken the slack out of the trigger.) I think it's a valuable tool and have seen it utilized numerous times with outstanding results. That said, it's not to be used liberally.
Our dept hasn't distributed the latest chest related memo, though it might be going thru legal first. When and if this policy strikes, I hope it reads so that it's not an absolute, i.e. "Officers shall not..." Instead I hope it reads "Officers should try not..." or "When possible...".
If the whole don't shoot at the chest thing does come down the barrel, I'd like to see Taser change the body of the X26. As officers we're drilled center mass center mass to unconscious competence which seems to always translate Taser deployments in my experiences.
If you aren't getting the Taser email updates, you should consider it. If you are not an instructor, have one of them forward the updates to you.
If this is the case, I should probably sell my tasr stock. It's been a dog since I bought it a year and a half ago anyway. I could use the tax deduction...
John_Wayne777
10-22-09, 19:32
Taser is kind of screwing over everybody in LE with this move.
Unsat.
I am not a cop, and in general, I have civil libertarian sensibilities. However, I think the Taser is WAY under utilized. The use of force for a Taser should look like this: First warning, second warning, draw Taser, warning, ZAP! And this should be used for pretty much everything.
with all this taser drama, i have to ask the question, isn't a taser still less likely to kill a suspect than the old method of hitting them with a stick until they calm down?
i've got no experience with it, but it seems like it would be awfully easy to do a guy in with a night stick by accident.
This move would seem to contradict all the other things I've ever heard from Taser and their defense of their product. While I understand it's use and think it could be very positive in alot of situations I also feel that it may be used too often as a compliance tool when there are other alternatives. Not a slam on LEO's but some of the instances you see people get tazed for on the news are a little ridiculous, I know they don't show the appropriate times. Whatever happened to verbal Judo :D
I am not a cop, and in general, I have civil libertarian sensibilities. However, I think the Taser is WAY under utilized. The use of force for a Taser should look like this: First warning, second warning, draw Taser, warning, ZAP! And this should be used for pretty much everything.
Old people, deaf people, the mentally handicapped, inebriated... there are many situations where people may not have the capacity to take verbal commands and act upon them, and obviously it should be situational dependent.
It has been explained to me that the move is due the large ammount of wrongful death lawsuits brought against Taser Int'l, most of which they have won.
I have yet to hear of a case where being tased is the sole cause of death.
I can tell you how many times a Taser has put an end to a situation I was in where the only other option would have been lethal force. On that account, it has saved lives.
Tasers are not as effective as they once were. The "shock" value is no longer there. If you watch TV, there is always footage of someone being tased somewhere. Gang members/Convicts train to counter our Taser tactics. The "windmill" and "drop and roll" tactics have been used by thugs with great affect. I've actually discussed "this tasing" with a suspect vs. his last tasing. It seems that once they know what's going to happen, it is not so bad for them, or effective on our terms. And, no, Tasers should not be used on some whiny ass dip shit that does not want to sign a ticket.
I am not a cop, and in general, I have civil libertarian sensibilities. However, I think the Taser is WAY under utilized.
Contrary, too much faith has been placed in them. They are pulled when a firearm should be used (knife attack!) or when hands-on may be the answer. The public have unrealistic expectations of these new wonder tools we carry. They work...sometimes. This falls under the same argument of "why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?" or "they shot him, all he had is a knife!"
The Taser is just another tool that, when used properly, yeilds great results. As already been stated, they are notoriously inaccurate and fail often. Train, train, train.
Don't tase me bro.
I got this from TASER today.
"The crux of what is being reported: Media is reporting that TASER is prohibiting chest shots because of a danger of cardiac arrest.
This is completely incorrect. TASER has RECOMMENDED slightly lowering the PREFERRED point of aim from center of mass to lower center of mass for shots to the front of the body. Aiming lower results in more effective TASER applications, further reduces the risk of accidental shots to the throat or eyes, and avoids the controversy over whether it is possible for the TASER to have an adverse effect on the “one in a million” person with a bad heart who is also high on drugs, etc - an impossible standard to meet, measure, or even quantify.
One media report inaccurately stated that the risk of cardiac arrest from a chest shot with the TASER is 0.25%. This is completely false. To put it into context how remote this possibility is, the most prominent expert witness hired by plaintiffs against TASER estimates the probability of Ventricular Fibrillation from a TASER strike to be 0.00061% , or 1 in 163,934. And that’s the estimate from the plaintiffs!
Due to this sensationally inaccurate reporting, please make sure that you download the actual bulletin for yourselves at:
www.taser.com/training/Pages/TrainingResources.aspx <http://www.taser.com/training/Pages/TrainingResources.aspx> "
I am not a cop, and in general, I have civil libertarian sensibilities. However, I think the Taser is WAY under utilized. The use of force for a Taser should look like this: First warning, second warning, draw Taser, warning, ZAP! And this should be used for pretty much everything.
Many agencies train to spray or tase a subject before going hands-on to overcome resistance. That has many merits. On the downside, some have done so at the expense of hands-on skill training, and a reliance upon devices.
I like having tasers and OC at the lowest levels possible to allow this, but there's still a time and place to go hands-on.
with all this taser drama, i have to ask the question, isn't a taser still less likely to kill a suspect than the old method of hitting them with a stick until they calm down?
Yes.
For those who can't understand commands, the NMI of the taser will respond for them.
Tasers are not as effective as they once were. The "shock" value is no longer there. If you watch TV, there is always footage of someone being tased somewhere. Gang members/Convicts train to counter our Taser tactics. The "windmill" and "drop and roll" tactics have been used by thugs with great affect. I've actually discussed "this tasing" with a suspect vs. his last tasing. It seems that once they know what's going to happen, it is not so bad for them, or effective on our terms.
The taser continues to be most effective on cops, who will wail, whine, and scream like little girls and then lay on the mat...just as the videos show them to do...when they're exposed.
Perps have a bit more fortitude, and figured it out. When the switch is off, they up and back in the fight. Even when it is on, there are methods that might work to interrupt the pulses. There are also tactics to make deployment more difficult.
With taser use now widespread in my area, it's easy to tell those perps that have been tased before, and those that have not.
And, no, Tasers should not be used on some whiny ass dip shit that does not want to sign a ticket.
Yup.
We just got this memo also along with an amended memo from Taser. They said they will cover deployment as long as it is justified even in the chest. They are only recommending that the ideal target area be moved just below the chest.
Cascades236
10-24-09, 19:06
Made it down to us this week as well. Those that are tauting this as chest shots being prohibited are off base. It's merely a suggested best practice type of situation now where if you can aim at somewhere other than the chest, you should.
Made it down to us this week as well. Those that are tauting this as chest shots being prohibited are off base. It's merely a suggested best practice type of situation now where if you can aim at somewhere other than the chest, you should.
Yup. There's a whole lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth out there, but not a lot of reading comprehension.
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