View Full Version : modern "fighting bolt gun" hypothetical- update at end
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos. What sort of bolt gun would you want for a defensive application? How would you set it up?
I am about to move on a long-awaited precision rifle project, and I think that a GP bolt rifle project will be next. I am interested to hear the thoughts of some smart guys here at M4C.
Because of the endless supply of AR options for barrel length, twist, rail accessories, stocks, etc. I would like to see a single shot, bolt action AR upper receiver. I think with the endless possibilities of AR options building a useful tactical tack driver in a wide variety of calibers is endless.
geminidglocker
10-18-09, 17:10
I'de go with an Enfield SMLE. They can be operated quite rapidly.
I suppose my friend BigJon's Brockman "tactical" Winchester Model 70 .308 with it's 10 shot detachable magazine and low powered variable scope (conventionally mounted) - and BUIS. I thought I had a picture of it saved somewhere but I can't seem to find it.
hopeitsfast
10-18-09, 17:39
I think this would be a good fighting bolt gun. Uses AK mags.
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2700/2750.htm
I think this would be a good fighting bolt gun. Uses AK mags.
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2700/2750.htm
I seem to recall having seen that in some write-up several years- maybe more like 10+ yrs actually- ago. If it's a good design that'd be pretty viable.
I have an SMLE, and I think that it's a great option. Still, it's heavy. So is the ammo. Optics are a bit of a PITA, too.
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos...
Marlin 1894.
I *think* I am down for the lever guns, but I have no experience with them myself.
How would you spec it? Are you worried about range?
I was thinking about one of the lighter or middle-weight offerings from Sako. IIRC, they have detachable box mags, but standard open actions. The mag is double column I think, which might allow for both single loading and mag loading. The bbls are known to be good and accurate. Maybe a long eye relief low-power variable like the Accupoint?
30-06, .308, or even .243
I think we had this conversation somewhere, but...
Remington 700 action. Very common, so spare parts are most readily available.
Fed from FAL magazines. Common, cheap, come in various sizes. May need to be modified to work with Remington action.
16-18" lightweight profile barrel. We're not going to be firing volumes of rapid fire, and portability is more important than any perceived benefit from a big bull barrel.
Shortened stock to fit me. Most stocks are too long for pretty much anyone.
Iron sights.
Suppressor mount, just in case.
1.5-5 optic, although I wish someone made something like a 2-6x or 2-8 in the same compact size package.
Littlelebowski
10-18-09, 19:17
How about one of those pump .308s?
IMHO, Remington 7615 Police and 7600 Police would be good choices. The Australian government banned further import of the 7615P (due to the ability to use M-16 magazines), but the 7600 Police is still legal there. I've heard that is a popular option in Australia.
How about one of those pump .308s?
I hear they have durability issues, and that the pump can be stiff to manipulate. They are also heavy.
Discussed here to some extent
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36968&highlight=7600&page=4
Rob- I recall you posting on that option (the Remington pump action rifle) at SF some time ago. Sounds like you've had a change of heart.
Does anybody do a FAL mag conversion? That'd be pretty pimp, IMO.
I hear they have durability issues, and that the pump can be stiff to manipulate. They are also heavy.
Discussed here to some extent
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36968&highlight=7600&page=4
The Remington pumps smooth out with use. I suppose heavy is relative, but the 7615 (.223 Rem/5.56x45mm) weighs in around 7 lbs (lighter than many tricked-out M4s). ;)
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-18-09, 21:48
Steyr Scout
British shooters can't own semiautomatics so some buy an AR that has been built without a gas tube. Some gunsmiths mill a slot in the left-hand side of the upper and install a bolt handle (FAL-style) into the carrier so they can shoot, then cycle the action with their left hand.
egads...if there were no more semi auto's, then a bolt would not be my shtf gun.
I'll take a pre 64 winchester lever.
egads...if there were no more semi auto's, then a bolt would not be my shtf gun.
I'll take a pre 64 winchester lever.
+1
I have a '94 Winchester that is over 110 years old and still gets put to work. It's all original sans firing pin and runs flawless.
*However if it had to be a bolt gun...I'd probably go with a cheap and durable milsurp.
Marlin 1894.
Make it a Marlin 336. .30-30 ammo is everywhere and guns are very reliable in my experience. Although I personally wouldn't want to hunt elk (a friend's uncle does it every year with 170gr flatpoints) or anything larger with one, it is more than sufficient for dear sized game out to 150 yards with flatpoints and farther with the Hornady LeverRevolution ammo.
I am presently in the process of rebuilding a "Western Field Model 33" (Marlin 336 sold by Montgomery Wards to my father over 40 years ago) as what I have heard termed a "redneck assualt rifle" (don't remember where I heard that actually). It's actually a variation of Col. Cooper's Scout Rifle concept.
Other than the original gun, specs will be as follows (in no particular order):
XS Sights Lever Rail and Lever Rail Ghost Ring sight set
Burris 2.75X Scout Scope w/QD rings I got in a trade with a friend
New follower and all new springs
Pachmayr recoil pad
Trigger/action job
Cut barrel and magazine tube to 16.?" and install new front site (See #1)
Brockman Custom Cartridge Trap installed in buttstock
DRC Custom Big Loop Lever (larger, easier to use but not hugely oversized like the Wild West Guns lever - I live in Texas not Alaska so huge gloves/mittens are not an issue)
Refinish rifle, scope, and stock (probably GunKote)
Wild West Guns Extractor (more reliable with .30-30AI - See below)
Machined "sidesaddle" style shellholder for receiver (if the gunsmith I know who is experimenting with them can get it to work reliably)
If you don't handload, the .30-30 with Hornady LeverRevolution ammo gives you a Point Blank Range (hold on a spot and everything is in a 6" circle no matter the distance - that's my version of the definition) of 225-250 yards. If you handload, have the chamber reamed to .30-30 Ackley Improved and, using the Hornady LeverRevolution bullets, you can stretch that to around 300 yards. The extra 150-200fps that .30-30AI gives you flattens the trajectory just enough. Mine will be rechambered to .30-30AI.
Once it is done I will post pics. Don't hold your breath, however. Even though I am doing a large chunk of the work myself, I am waiting on a couple of backordered parts currently and then I have to ship the buttstock to Brockman no to mention the fact that I'm waiting in line for the gunsmith to get to me for cutting the barrel and doing the action work. Add that to the pregnant wife watching the budget like a starving hawk (I have been told this project and my next AR build have to come from the same set of funds :( ) and it will probably be early next year before it is done. :confused:
One thing though, whether you end up with a bolt gun (I have several) or a lever gun, practice to work the action without dismounting the gun from your shoulder. One of the reasons I like lever guns for this application is that I can do that and be back on target with the crosshairs faster with a lever gun than a bolt action. :D
Thomas M-4
10-19-09, 00:03
EASY 1903 springfield with gunsite scout package.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1601/767099/10267039/354917478.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1601/767099/10267039/354917460.jpg
Stripper clip fed and functional magazine cut off.
MisterWilson
10-19-09, 00:07
Does a Pederson Device count? :D
After that, I think that some sort of short barreled lever action would be nice...
Am I the only person that thinks a bolt action AR platform has some potential?
Am I the only person that thinks a bolt action AR platform has some potential?
No. I think the idea has a lot of potential as well. However, the only bolt action AR uppers that I can remember seeing did not seem to be very well executed and felt awkard to use. (I don't remember who made them but it was at the Houston Gun Collectors Show a number of years ago.)
British shooters can't own semiautomatics so some buy an AR that has been built without a gas tube. Some gunsmiths mill a slot in the left-hand side of the upper and install a bolt handle (FAL-style) into the carrier so they can shoot, then cycle the action with their left hand.
Now I think this concept has a lot of merit. Being able to work the "bolt" with my left hand while keeping the rifle to my shoulder and maintaining a firing grip with my right hand is very appealing. I would be very interested to see how well it might work.
Since the thread title was "bolt gun", that's what I went with in my first post.
Lever actions have merit, but prone shooting can be an issue, as can reloads. Something in a manageable caliber like .357 would be a possibility for a home defense gun for sure, but may not offer much other than capacity over the pump-action shotgun.
Since the thread title was "bolt gun", that's what I went with in my first post.
Lever actions have merit, but prone shooting can be an issue, as can reloads. Something in a manageable caliber like .357 would be a possibility for a home defense gun for sure, but may not offer much other than capacity over the pump-action shotgun.
The lever certainly gives you some distance over the shotgun but like you, I would probably grab the scatter if in the home. You can also load up slugs if needed.
The main problem I see in the bolt is the current capacity...now if there was a reliable bolt design that followed the lever & shotgun thought process with the magazine running the length of the bbl, then we might be onto something. An extended drop mag to gain rounds for a bolt seems silly to me.
MisterWilson
10-19-09, 08:46
Since the thread title was "bolt gun", that's what I went with in my first post.
Lever actions have merit, but prone shooting can be an issue, as can reloads. Something in a manageable caliber like .357 would be a possibility for a home defense gun for sure, but may not offer much other than capacity over the pump-action shotgun.
Whoops, for some reason I thought that any non-auto rifle was in the running, reading is fundamental.
An extended drop mag to gain rounds for a bolt seems silly to me.
I think it's perfect, actually. You need to make use of an established magazine type like the FAL or similar so that multiple capacities are available though. Don't want to be trying to shoot from prone if a 20-round magazine is too tall for that.
How about one of those pump .308s?
I hear they have durability issues, and that the pump can be stiff to manipulate. They are also heavy. Discussed here to some extent
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36968&highlight=7600&page=4
Yup. Durability has been an issue, among other things. Phila PD's comments in the thread are spot on. Unless you have to have a shotgun and rifle that operate the same, pass.
Don't want to be trying to shoot from prone if a 20-round magazine is too tall for that.
Exactly...I guess it' just wierd for me to envision a bolt gun in a high capacity battle situation when their application is currently viewed as a sniper role & we do have the auto's. They certainly had their day and many a man has fallen to bolts in the heat of the fight. Getting away from a 20 round minimum these days is strange to imagine as well. I used to ask my granddad about being able to cope in the south tx heat w/out A/C...he said, "we didn't miss it cuz it wasn't available & no one told us we should be miserable."
Thinking about a world today without an AR / 1911 / autogun is about as depressing as no A/C.
I would actually opt out of the Bolt Guns for a combat rifle and go with a handy Win 1895 Chambered in .44 Magnum for close in work. And a BLR in .308 Win for everything else. Since the rate of fire is being slowed down the added recoil would'nt be an issue.
Whoops, for some reason I thought that any non-auto rifle was in the running, reading is fundamental.
It's all good. In reality, I'd be open to all types of actions.
Randy Cain teaches a "Practical Rifle" class that is typically taken with a lightweight bolt action and a lower powered optic. Shots are taken out to 300 (range permitting) but they work in closer as well. I haven't had a chance to take the class yet but it's on my short list.
The whole "sniper" thing isn't something that interests me as I'm not sure how or where I would apply the skills.
Gutshot John
10-19-09, 11:14
I've toyed around with the options for this very thing, here are two relevant threads.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26357
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35553
I think a 20 round bolt gun certainly has merit, however in exploring the idea with a precision rifle gunsmith, it turned out to less than practical.
An FN 30-11 however had models that accepted FAL mags, but you'll spend in the thousands of dollars for one.
Actually if it weren't for the exotic caliber, I think a straight-pull K31 is an interesting option.
I have a K31 and think it'd be a neat option, too. The straight-pull is fast for me, and the rifle is accurate, but you are right about the ammo. I've never tried the Wolf stuff, and that seems to be all that's available right now. Also, like the SMLE it is heavy and not so easily scoped.
The caliber selection is a big deal, IMO. I'd want something with ooomph, range, and wide availability. Weight and cost are factors, too, but less so IMO than in a semi/FA rifle.
I have a K31 and think it'd be a neat option, too. The straight-pull is fast for me, and the rifle is accurate, but you are right about the ammo. I've never tried the Wolf stuff, and that seems to be all that's available right now. Also, like the SMLE it is heavy and not so easily scoped.
The caliber selection is a big deal, IMO. I'd want something with ooomph, range, and wide availability. Weight and cost are factors, too, but less so IMO than in a semi/FA rifle.
I also really like the idea of a K31 or other straight pull action but I can not remember having ever seen any options out there for increasing the magazine capacity or any really good quality options for mounting low-powered forward optics. Then add the caliber issue with ammo availability and things start fall off the rails.
I don't want to have to go to a gunsmith with a plain action an say "Build me a rifle that does this." To me that completey defeats the purpose. I want spare parts availability without a machine shop.
A few years ago, I put together a Ruger M77 Mk2 Youth Model for general purpose use. With the 16" barrel and short stock, it is short, light, and very handy. I chose .308 Win for the caliber for flexibility. The barrel was threaded for a GI flash hider, and I bolted a rail section on the forearm for a light. An Eagle stock pouch finishes up the accessories. Optic is a 4x M8 Leupold. I use this to chase medium game from 0-200yds, as a contingency for two-leggeds, and a fun gun. It conceals easily in various non-gun cases and bags, and travels well.
If I couldn't have a semi-auto, I would keep some variation of the above.
A detachable magazine variant would be handy, as reloading the gun is the slowest part of its operation. I've considered building a second one with one of the available options for that. I have also considered working up one with a T1 and magnifier behind it.
Thomas M-4
10-19-09, 16:40
SMLE has a 10 round detachable box magazine didn't the Brits find out many decades ago that reloading it was faster using stripper clips than swapping magazine ?
Steyr has 10rd mags for its Scout and Prohunter rifles. they have been criticized for the shape of the bolt handle but it doesn't seem to matter much to me.
I have a Prohunter in .280 with a 3-9x42 Kahles with the TDI reticle that can shoot the entire mag of my 154gr. reloads into about 3" at 300 yards.
Take an Enfield No.4 Mk.1, rebarrel it to .308 Win. with a high quality barrel, take the stock back some, put a decent 1.5-5x power on it (or issued 4x) and you'll have something.
L42A1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/22ndSAS.jpg
Take an Enfield No.4 Mk.1, rebarrel it to .308 Win. with a high quality barrel, take the stock back some, put a decent 1.5-5x power on it (or issued 4x) and you'll have something.
L42A1
I wasn't aware the #4Mk1 could contain .308 pressures but I suppose it's not out of the question . As far as I know, all the converted Ishapores were on #1Mk3 actions and this was what we were seeing come in from India some time ago.
I'd take my Winchester 70 .308 with featherweight contour 22 inch barrel, seated in a McMillan Edge graphite stock. It carries a Leupold 2.5-8 optic in Talley rings and bases. The package weighs 7.5 lbs. I'd have to paint the stainless steel, though.
If I couldn't have that, give me a Mauser '98, a Springfield or a Swede short rifle in 6.5x55.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-19-09, 22:48
What is the deal with that pic. That dude looks like "a man among men."
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-19-09, 23:23
What is the deal with that pic. That dude looks like "a man among men."
I thought it was Charlton Heston for a minute.
Pic looks like it was shot on film, slide film, slow ISO speed, near sunset. Normal to short telephoto lens, shot at a mid f-stop aperture. By the attire and area, I'd guess a Leica.
Could almost be a hunter, till you see the grenade launcher in his pack.
Cool pic.
Judging by the headgear and the footwear and the fact he has a beard I am going to guess that he is a Brit and the setting is Oman or Yemen and a timeframe around 1975-1982.
I like showing this off. I may do another and add the CDI AI mag system. I approached Remington on this and they could give two shits about it. I'm supprised that more firms haven't developed some quality kits in similiar fashion--for a reasonable rate. The 2-3k "scout sticks out there are out of alot of people's price range. The whole thing was my "brain storm" Templar has shot it and he loved it-my son stole it from me:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/001-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/100_0981.jpg
I like showing this off. I may do another and add the CDI AI mag system. I approached Remington on this and they could give two shits about it. I'm supprised that more firms haven't developed some quality kits in similiar fashion--for a reasonable rate. The 2-3k "scout sticks out there are out of alot of people's price range. The whole thing was my "brain storm" Templar has shot it and he loved it-my son stole it from me:)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/001-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/mark5pt56/100_0981.jpg
details on the barrel....did you rebarrel it?
Just standard sps barrel, cut to 18" and threaded for the Holland brake. The sights are NECG banded front, gold bar and the rear is the Ashley ghost ring base. Leupold 1.5-5 PR series with Quick release rings.
She'll do 1 1/4" at 100 with good ammo.
Although made to "last" I wanted to keep it cheap as possible as a test run. A local smith did the work for me, Antique and Modern Repair in Va. Beach. I painted it though, with my son's help.
Mark
Lever actions have merit, but prone shooting can be an issue, as can reloads.
On the other hand, in tight quarters, at shorter ranges, and/or moving I by far prefer the manipulation characteristics of the lever action over a bolt gun.
DavidFourteen
10-21-09, 20:44
I'd have to consider one of these ( http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=enfield_conversions) Enfields converted to 7.62x39mm.
What is the deal with that pic. That dude looks like "a man among men."
kmrtnsn nailed it.
Brit SAS serving in Oman sometime after 1970.
MarshallDodge
10-21-09, 21:47
So many good ideas. I like the scout rifle idea and a lever gun is good too. Thomas M-4's 03-A3 has me thinking.....there is a sporterized beater 03-A3 down at the pawn shop I could get cheap. I love stripper clips. :cool:
Take an Enfield No.4 Mk.1, rebarrel it to .308 Win. with a high quality barrel, take the stock back some, put a decent 1.5-5x power on it (or issued 4x) and you'll have something.
L42A1
I have a 308 Ishapore with a polymer stock and a barrel that has already been hacked to 16". I picked it up a couple years ago to make a project out of but it is behind the others. My plans are to put a scout scope on it and shoot lighter reloads through it. More or less a long range plinker.
So many ideas, so little time.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-21-09, 22:31
When I saw modern in the title, I was thinking I'd see more of the new fangled bedless 'tube-gun' style guns. Modern art masterpieces if nothing else.
EASY 1903 springfield with gunsite scout package.
That's pretty much exactly what I did. This Scout is a 30-06 built by Dan Pederson on a Remington 1903 action. 19" barrel with integral bases, MPI stock, Timney trigger, Andy Langlois sling and Leupold Scout scope with German #1 reticle. It is shockingly accurate and a joy to carry in the field. When I had the rifle built I went with a longer length of pull, but recently had Doc at MPI shorten it to 13" and am really glad I did so.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1593/1005109hz4.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/i/1005109hz4.jpg/)
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2795/1006805wo1.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/i/1006805wo1.jpg/)
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/321/1005102vv2.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/i/1005102vv2.jpg/)
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-22-09, 17:38
Now THAT, is a rifle.
Those two scout mount rifles are the cat's ass.
frbowers,
How do you rate the dawn and dusk low light performance of the Scout scope rigs?
Thanks for the compliments on the scout!
The scout scope has a fairly small objective so it is not great at light gathering, but the reticle stadia lines are quite thick and easy to pick up in low light. In very low light, I will find the brightest light source and look at it through the scope to help find the reticle, focus on the reticle then move to my target. The 19" barrel in a 30-06 produces quite a muzzle flash with some ammo especially the surplus Greek M2 ball that CMP had.
I forgot to mention that the metal on the scout has been coated with Birdsong's Black T which is a huge benefit in Alaska.
Thanks. I'm sure the Leu is a better scout scope than the much older Burris I used on a 98 Mauser converted to .308. I hunted with that for a few years and it was pretty weak when the light was fading.
Great looking rifle for sure. I really regret not picking up this lightly sporterized '03 with a Lyman peep a few years back. It was only priced around $250 and while I hemmed and hawed it vanished.
Best regards.
QuietShootr
10-22-09, 19:09
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos. What sort of bolt gun would you want for a defensive application? How would you set it up?
I am about to move on a long-awaited precision rifle project, and I think that a GP bolt rifle project will be next. I am interested to hear the thoughts of some smart guys here at M4C.
Won't need one. Be dead before then.
Won't need one. Be dead before then.
I'm on another list where the question of the bolt action rifle in a TEOTWAWKI scenario comes up about once every six months. A standard answer is that with a good bolt gun you can get all of the new ARs you need. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that if I have to head to the hills in Alaska this scout is on the short list of firearms to take.
My Go To rifle for years was a Pre-64 Win Mod 70 in 300 Win Mag. I would probably stick with that but in 308 with a S&B Short Dot and shorten the stock a bit... and the FAL mag idea sounds dreamy...have a few of those;)
Combat_Diver
10-23-09, 05:50
It would seems that Jeff Cooper had the right idea with his Scout Rifle concept years ago. One would have to determine which features you need in this "Modern Turn Bolt Battle Rifle". Chambering would be either 5.56, and one of the three common military 7.62s (x39,x51,54R) depending on your lo-cal. The Army does have some M24A1s and A2s that utilize a detachable magazine and mutliple rails system and threaded for a suppressor. Sights are wrong along with the weight for our critiria.
Here's something that a friend and I built in the early 90s on a Russian 1891 NM. Orginally it had a Bushnell 3x Phantom scope but it didn't hold up. Currently wears a cheap Chinesse Ni-Star red/green dot. Muzzle is ported, stock org wood and Krylon painted. Reciever was built in 1904 and still takes stripper clips.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1904_NM_full_view.jpg
Savage also had out a Scout Rifle in .308 with BUIS. Anyone remember the Spanish FR-7/8 rifles? A 7.62mm 98 with a Flash hinder and took the CETME/G3 blade.
If building from sratch and I had a factory it would have the following features. 98 or 03A3 action, BUIS, forward rail for IER scope/red dot, polyamore/syn. stock, poss with a adj butt, follower would lock bolt back to prevent closing on empty chamber, chambered in 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, detachable mag no more then 10 rds/7.62 or 20rds/5.56 (remember during WWI, the Hun had a 20-25 rd Gew 98 mag, too big), have a stripper clip guide, flash hinder, rail for light and bayonet lug. The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC catridges would have the same merit as within an AR.
CD
On the other hand, in tight quarters, at shorter ranges, and/or moving I by far prefer the manipulation characteristics of the lever action over a bolt gun.
Yep, I'd take a bolt action for outside the house, and a lever action (or an 870) for inside.
Which brings up a point that's never overly popular around here, but a shotgun with proper ammo selection can be pretty versatile, and while less than ideal from prone it's easier than a lever in my experience.
Threads like this usually come 'round to the Scout concept. It has it's pluses and minuses like anything else, and it's detractors and fans (often both of which want to argue more about Cooper than the concept). When Cooper was pushing the idea the handgun scopes were some of the only low-powered options other than shotgun scopes. I think that the modern 1.x-4or5 power scopes may make more sense and I don't think they violate the concept since they just weren't nearly as common at the time.
I think GJ linked to some of the other threads on this topic.
I'm still considering picking up one of these, although I'm still unsure about their funky trigger.
Savage Scout (http://www.savagearms.com/10fcmscout.htm)
Gutshot John
10-23-09, 11:16
Just having played with Savage Scout in a gun shop, the trigger isn't bad, though the trigger I have on my SPS is more crisp. One characteristic of a scout where I think the Savage departs from the model is that it should be based on an enduring platform with an ample supply of spare parts in the pipeline. This also rules out Cooper's own Scout he did for Steyr which is a very nice gun having shot my buddy's.
As many have pointed out old military rifles like the SMLE, Mauser, 1903 etc. have a lot going for them. 700s and 70s as well as other hunting platforms like the Ruger's 77 series are also significant contenders. One thing to ponder is the issue of controlled or push feeding.
I'm increasingly skeptical of the DBM concept except in rifles engineered for it like the SMLE. Some after-market options exist for extended round floorplates, but I'm not sure how reliable they would prove to be over the long term. I don't think 5-10 round magazines really work for fast-reloads, so learning how to emergency reload a bolt gun, 1-2 rounds at a time, would be a training issue.
I agree with Rob that there are better optics suited for the Scout than existed at the time Cooper laid it out. The TR21/24 would be ideal in this application, even more so than on an AR in my opinion. If they came out with a 24 in a quick ranging reticle they'd have a game-changer.
Threads like this usually come 'round to the Scout concept. It has it's pluses and minuses like anything else, and it's detractors and fans (often both of which want to argue more about Cooper than the concept). When Cooper was pushing the idea the handgun scopes were some of the only low-powered options other than shotgun scopes. I think that the modern 1.x-4or5 power scopes may make more sense and I don't think they violate the concept since they just weren't nearly as common at the time.
I think GJ linked to some of the other threads on this topic.
I'm still considering picking up one of these, although I'm still unsure about their funky trigger.
Savage Scout (http://www.savagearms.com/10fcmscout.htm)
I did not want to affect the direction of the thread too much by talking a lot about the Savage/Ruger/Steyr, but I think that they are well-executed options, especially the Savage with its integral irons, box mag, and light weight. I have fondled the all of them and it is hard to justify the $1400 extra for the Steyr's CDI. I AM thinking about picking one up.
My sticking point is scope placement- ie scount pos vs conventional pos. For GP and possible "fighting" use, the scout position seems fine. However, I live in an area with relatively wide-open topography- desert coastal plains, high desert, rolling hills etc. Shots might have to be taken at ranges out to 300-400m or so. I don't have any experience with scout style optics, but I *think* that such ranges might be a bit much for a 2.5x.
Gutshot John
10-23-09, 11:39
This article is a little bit dated (9 years) but provides a bit of professional criticism of the DBM.
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/DetachableMagazines.asp
Added with the caveat that technology has evolved and that there is nearly a decade of warfighting experience we've gained since then.
I think that the modern 1.x-4or5 power scopes may make more sense and I don't think they violate the concept since they just weren't nearly as common at the time.
If you have not used a scout with a forward mounted scout scope then it might seem that a low powered variable is a better option than a long eye relief 2.5X optic. The big problem with using a conventional scope is that it will be mounted over the action and you lose the ability to quickly load with stripper clips as well as a very handy place to carry the rifle.
As someone who has spent a LOT of time in the field, killing animals with both a scout and conventional bolt guns mounted with low power variables I can say that, for myself at least, I don't feel like I am giving anything up in terms of practical marksmanship by using the 2.5X scout scope forward mounted.
Shots might have to be taken at ranges out to 300-400m or so. I don't have any experience with scout style optics, but I *think* that such ranges might be a bit much for a 2.5x.
Maybe if you are shooting prairie dogs, but not if you are shooting at a big game animal or target that is capable of firing back at you.
Which brings up a point that's never overly popular around here, but a shotgun with proper ammo selection can be pretty versatile, and while less than ideal from prone it's easier than a lever in my experience.
I agree completely and would mention that the often overlooked aspect of the shotgun is their devastating terminal ballistics.
Maybe if you are shooting prairie dogs, but not if you are shooting at a big game animal or target that is capable of firing back at you.
Good point!:D
I have an FR-8 to fill the role for the moment, but I've been considering picking up a Tikka T3 Lite Stainless MT in .308 Win. What I'm thinking is some kind of barrel rail mount with a QD ML3 or similar and removable emergency irons that mount to the rail. I figure it would be a great low key 100 yard meat gathering rifle that would have a secondary defensive role.
Thomas M-4
10-24-09, 09:23
Sweet 03
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2795/1006805wo1.jpg
I'd like to try this. Put my stash of M14 magazines to work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmzgNVlWT6I
*****This is for information purposes only. This is what I did to MY rifle. If you are contemplating such a modification CONSULT A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH.*****
This is the Ruger Frontier rifle chambered in .308 Winchester. The scope is a Leupold FX-II Scout Rifle Scope 2.5x 28mm. A ten round M1A magazine was modified for this conversion. The feed lips of the magazine must be trimmed back and a notch must be cut to clear the rifle ejector. This renders the magazine useless as a removable magazine.
Once the M1A magazine is modified the factory magazine, trigger guard and floor plate are removed. I added a washer to the front screw to anchor the stock at the recoil lug area. The M1A magazine is inserted into place and the trigger guard is then replaced on the rifle. The forward edge of the trigger guard keeps pressure against the latch on the rear of the M1A magazine. The rifle was not modified in any way and could be returned to factory condition in about five minutes.
I'd like to try this. Put my stash of M14 magazines to work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmzgNVlWT6I
Shouldn't be any reason why that can't be done with other .308 M77s as well. :D
A 36" long under 6lbs 6.8mm SPC bolt gun. Hmmmm. Interesting. (also avail in .260, 7mm-08, .308)
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=17126&return=Y
but I did a bad thing today. I fondled a Sako 85 Bavarian. Avail with 20" bbl in .308. 5 rd box mag and loadable via the open action, too. Factory irons. Deady sexy.
Id take a No5 Enfiled or a conversion thereof, drop it in some modern polymer furniture and add a 1-4x variable scope(unless you like just irons) and that IMO would be the best option for a combat bolt gun. Even better if its converted to .308 instead of .303
This configuration seems to me like a slam-dunk. It would be great to see a major company come out with something which you would think would be so popular, like Remington's inconceivably discontinued youth 308. Is the 7mm-08 gentle enough for smaller framed shooters, but the 308 just too powerful?
Too bad Ruger's 308 is a sub-compact (16"). But not unusual, in that we also see the most affordable AR-10 in the 16" DPMS, and the least hyper-expensive LWRC REPR is also the shorter barrels. Pardon my ignorance, but isn't 16" a little short for good expansion (like with Barnes TSX), and doesn't that put the blast uncomfortably close? Especially if you want to add a brake...
So, instead you need to chop/replace the barrel AND stock (and add optional irons), to get a nice compact 308. Or as Rob_S suggested elsewhere IIRC, de-Scout the Savage Scout, by which I assume he meant to traditionally locate the scope. :(
LonghunterCO
10-29-09, 15:01
http://www.savagearms.com/10pc.htm
Or this...
Yeah, but I assume the LOP is something like 13.5", which is an inch longer than I consider to be "handy," and irons sure would be nice. And it's hard to believe the camo job is worth $70 more than the iron-sighted Scout...
Now this is probably crazy, but if you get a short aftermarket stock on the Scout (get the LOP down to maybe 12"), could the scope be mounted back far enough for proper eye relief, like with a Burris or something which purports to have 5"...or is there a reasonable way to get enough offset?
LonghunterCO
10-29-09, 16:50
Yeah, but I assume the LOP is something like 13.5", which is an inch longer than I consider to be "handy," and irons sure would be nice. And it's hard to believe the camo job is worth $70 more than the iron-sighted Scout...
Now this is probably crazy, but if you get a short aftermarket stock on the Scout (get the LOP down to maybe 12"), could the scope be mounted back far enough for proper eye relief, like with a Burris or something which purports to have 5"...or is there a reasonable way to get enough offset?
Not sure but it might be cheaper to place irons on the 10 PC (which utilizes a standard scope mount setup) than to move the mounting setup back on the scout and maybe have to re-locate the rear sight...not sure.
certainly, but for the cost difference...like I said it is crazy.
ETA: and it's crazy something like this isn't already offered...and has actually been discontinued.
StrikeFace
10-29-09, 17:59
Savage 10 FCM .308 with a Leupold 2.5x28 LER scope. Hafta WECSOG a larger magazine. GI Sling. 165 grain JSPs.
The 10FCM does look like a great starting point, but if you look for the link to it on Savage's website, it's not there. I recall looking at that model a year or so ago, but not recently. Has it been discontinued as well?
The 10FCM is under the Law Enforcement tab on the Savage site.
Oh, the Scout. I was thinking Sierra for $200 less.
ETA: I'll take my Scout questions to an appropriate thread.
but I did a bad thing today. I fondled a Sako 85 Bavarian. Avail with 20" bbl in .308. 5 rd box mag and loadable via the open action, too. Factory irons. Deady sexy.
There must be some rule against mentioning things like that in a forum like this.
Now I'm going to have to find one to handle.
That will probably be a bad/good thing....:)
When I went to SHOT last year seeing the Savage Scout in person was very high on my list of priorities. On paper, it's exactly what I want, and the scout mount (which I would throw in the garbage) is attached in a traditional rear sight dovetail so a regular rear sight can be installed.
I was disappointed in the stock which felt overly blocky and the funky trigger they have so I haven't pursued it since.
Gutshot John
10-31-09, 11:42
I was disappointed in the stock which felt overly blocky and the funky trigger they have so I haven't pursued it since.
Assuming that at some point you've had at least equal time on a Remington 700 can you compare how they were different?
As I think about how a "fighting" gun should be different than a tactical precision rifle, weight/bulk I think figures heavily into the equation.
I know there is a feeling that if you're going to have a bolt, have a full power rifle cartridge, but I think .223 is really more ideal as a fighting bolt gun which presumably includes some level of close range ability. In that vein a light-weight 3-4x scope would be fantastic.
I wonder about the ability to mount an ACOG on a lightweight .223 bolt rifle with extended capacity.
I know there is a feeling that if you're going to have a bolt, have a full power rifle cartridge, but I think .223 is really more ideal as a fighting bolt gun which presumably includes some level of close range ability. In that vein a light-weight 3-4x scope would be fantastic.
This is the route I have gone. A year ago, I bought a Tikka T3 stainless because I wanted (a) a lightweight small game hunting rifle, and (b) a lightweight backup fighting rifle with a "manual" action, in case my AR's ever become unavailable for any reason.
Part of the reason to get the Tikka in .223 is the reason GJ has given, and partly that I have a large cache of .223 anyway for use in my AR's. Another handy and somewhat unusual thing about the Tikka as a factory rifle, is that it has a 1:8 barrel twist rate, so that it can stabilize the larger .223 cartridges, and can therefore stabilize the ammo in the 60gr and 70gr range that I have for my AR's. Finally, the Tikka comes from the factory with 5rd detachable mags, and you can buy 6rd mags as well in .223, which I did. So it's handy in the sense of being able to swap ammo types or reload in a hurry.
I do have a bolt gun in .308, but suspect the Tikka would be my first choice in a fighting gun if the AR's weren't around.
Assuming that at some point you've had at least equal time on a Remington 700 can you compare how they were different?
As I think about how a "fighting" gun should be different than a tactical precision rifle, weight/bulk I think figures heavily into the equation.
I know there is a feeling that if you're going to have a bolt, have a full power rifle cartridge, but I think .223 is really more ideal as a fighting bolt gun which presumably includes some level of close range ability. In that vein a light-weight 3-4x scope would be fantastic.
I wonder about the ability to mount an ACOG on a lightweight .223 bolt rifle with extended capacity.
The 700 is exactly what I'm familiar with, and the stock is both more compact as well as less blocky. As to the trigger, if you're not familiar with the funky Savage double trigger, it's kind of like a Glock. Not being a bolt gun guy I have no idea what the purpose is, but I hated it in the 5 minutes I handled it. Ultimately the Savage Scout just offered too many compromises ad required too many mods for what I would want to do.
I actually think that .308 is the ideal cartridge here. Whenever you're dealing with reduced capacity I think you should add ballistic effectiveness as long as it doesn't negatively impact size, weight, or cost, and in this case the .308 impacts none of those.
I'd use an Accupoint before an ACOG.
Gutshot John
10-31-09, 13:15
I actually think that .308 is the ideal cartridge here. Whenever you're dealing with reduced capacity I think you should add ballistic effectiveness as long as it doesn't negatively impact size, weight, or cost, and in this case the .308 impacts none of those.
I think there is a strong argument for .308 given reduced capacity. If you're going to have 4-6 rounds anyway I can see why one would chose a .308. If however you have the option of a high-capacity DBM bolt gun that is intended be used in firefights at varying distances and environments than a .223 has its virtues. It all depends on capacity.
You don't really see bolt guns that have hi-cap DBM (10 rounds tops) and those that use a DBM concept that are reliable are too expensive/rare to be dropped and discarded.
If there were a bolt gun in .223 that accepted AR mags I'd be all over it but in discussing it with a smith it's really complicated to make a bolt gun function reliably with a hi-capacity DBM that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars in machine work and expertise.
I'd use an Accupoint before an ACOG.
I'd also agree there if they made an Accupoint with a ranging BDC reticle.
Thomas M-4
10-31-09, 13:39
The problem I see with a savage or rem 700 for a ''fighting gun'' is that you might be shooting from cover and canting the rifle. If your hand slips off or gets bumped off the bolt handle on a push feed action it could cause a malfunction or a dropped round. Both types of feeds have there advantages me personally I would rather have a push feed for a sniper rifle which 99% of your shooting would be off a bipod.
On fighting bolt gun I see the controlled round feed has having the advantage if you are shooting from awkward positions and if your hand slips or get bumped off the bolt handle.
vid just showing the difference between the two. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZZphk6JWfQ
Has Gutshot John has pointed out the detachable box magazine has been tried before during two world wars fail.
There is a company called Australian American Arms or something that makes new Enfield No4s and No5s and they can be had in .308 and feed from M14 mags!
Thats would be the best IMO
Gutshot John
10-31-09, 14:12
There is a company called Australian American Arms or something that makes new Enfield No4s and No5s and they can be had in .308 and feed from M14 mags!
Thats would be the best IMO
Australian International but I don't think they're M14 mags.
http://www.australianinternationalarms.com.au/
They also make a 7.62x39 which would be very interesting.
I just started an ammo-related thread.
look here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40589
Just to blur the lines a bit more if you're not too married to .308...
I owned a CZ527 in 7.62x39. It was ridiculously handy (<6 lbs, 16" barrel), "excessively" accurate (~1.5 MOA w/ WOLF :eek:), detachable 5 rd. magazine, mini-Mauser action w/ claw extractor, and had iron sights that were dead on at 50 yards.
The one feature that I completely loathed on that rifle was the spongy trigger. It did have a nice "set" trigger that would go off telepathically, but the regular "unset" trigger was awful.
Here it is set up with a 2.5X Weaver.
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5029/cz527wa6.jpg
Here is my take, Col. Cooper and the Orig. Gunsite folks worked on this problem years ago. Two options, A modified lever gun, or the bolt action Scout.
For me my Steyr Scouts will work just fine. With the ten round mags and the butstock mounted shell loops I have 25 rounds on board. And hell if bears or zombies attack my humble abode I will break out the .376 Scout and have at them.
If these two were not avilable a Enfeild 2A in 762x51 with ten proven spare mags and ten extra extrators would be my choice. Large mag. capacity, good amnd availble cart., quick rate of fire, with suficent accuracy for the task.
Matt
If I had to think up an ideal "fighting bolt gun", I'd look at something with a 16-18" barrel, in .243, .270, or .308 (all three common anywhere I've ever been), 11.5" LOP, iron sights, 7 lbs max empty, and magazines in 5, 10, maybe 15 round capacities that cost no more than $20-25 apiece. Oh, and that costs less than $700...
I wouldn't know where to begin with a scope, as I know next to nothing about them.
-B
How about these?
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF008&gid=FNG004&mid=FNM0012
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF007&gid=FNG004&mid=FNM0135
How about these?
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF008&gid=FNG004&mid=FNM0012
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF007&gid=FNG004&mid=FNM0135
Perosnally, the barrels are too long, the fluting prevents cutting them down shorter, there are no iron sights, and the guns weigh too much at 8lbs 11 oz (for the 20").
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos. What sort of bolt gun would you want for a defensive application? How would you set it up?
By that statement I conclude that semi-autos have become lawfully prohibited to civilians, and that the bolt action will be its replacement.
I ran an H-1 on my Steyr for a few months, and currently have the Leupold FX-II 2.5x scout scope remounted. The scout scope is a pretty efficient sight system, but it won't work in the dark. For an urban/suburban environment I think that a 1x Aimpoint with its superior capability during the hours of limited visibility, has a noticeable advantage over a non-illuminated scope. I need to save up to look into the option for an S&B Short Dot.
I'm also looking for the Steyr 10 rd magazine adaptor, which I do not think will affect the rifles balance too much.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2822/dsc00116yy3.jpg
NinjaMedic
11-07-09, 19:06
Damn Bluedog, I hadnt even really thought about the Steyr Scout.
19" Hammer forged 1/10" .308
12.6" LOP
MIL Spec M1913-STANAG Top Rail (Unk Length)
10rd detachable box magazines with storage for 2nd mag in stock
3 position safety
6.6lbs unloaded
Polymer stock
built in folding BUIS
bottom rail that can be adapted easily to MIL Spec M1913-STANAG rail
Expensive yes, but so are a lot of our toys compared to other rifles.
Place an SB Shortdot or Trijicon TR24 on it and I think we might have a winner.
http://www.steyrarms.com/fileadmin/user/pdf/ultrascoutelite.pdf
Sure. A scout so long as NOT with a scout scope, could be a winner. (its the poor low light perf). After hunting a few years with a psuedo-scout, it struck me as so ironic that Coopers general purpose rifle was more limited in capability than the same rifle with a conventional 1-4x scope. All that work to get back to a dangerous game rifle.
Damn Bluedog, I hadnt even really thought about the Steyr Scout.
19" Hammer forged 1/10" .308
12.6" LOP
MIL Spec M1913-STANAG Top Rail (Unk Length)
10rd detachable box magazines with storage for 2nd mag in stock
3 position safety
6.6lbs unloaded
Polymer stock
built in folding BUIS
bottom rail that can be adapted easily to MIL Spec M1913-STANAG rail
Expensive yes, but so are a lot of our toys compared to other rifles.
Place an SB Shortdot or Trijicon TR24 on it and I think we might have a winner.
http://www.steyrarms.com/fileadmin/user/pdf/ultrascoutelite.pdf
They are nice rifles and are very ergonomic, although the cocking mech requires much greater leverage than I'd like. You do get used to it, but then will abuse your other bolts when you switch over--its that stiff. The stock requires a tight cheek weld partly due to the low mounting of the scout scope. The plastic BUIS is strictly for emergencies, as it forces a weird and awkward cheekbone weld to acquire.
CDNN had it for sale for close to $2300. recently.
Eventually I will set up with a .357 Marlin, as I think a lever action with an XS Scout rail and an Aimpoint has much to speak of.
thopkins22
11-08-09, 01:06
If there were a bolt gun in .223 that accepted AR mags I'd be all over it but in discussing it with a smith it's really complicated to make a bolt gun function reliably with a hi-capacity DBM that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars in machine work and expertise.
There's a pump gun in .223 that takes AR magazines. The Remington 7615P. I can't speak to the reliability nor anything else as I don't own one, haven't shot one, and don't want one.
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm
ETA: I don't say that to discourage anyone from trying one out...but I just don't have a need for such a beast.
I think there is a strong argument for .308 given reduced capacity. If you're going to have 4-6 rounds anyway I can see why one would chose a .308. If however you have the option of a high-capacity DBM bolt gun that is intended be used in firefights at varying distances and environments than a .223 has its virtues. It all depends on capacity.
You don't really see bolt guns that have hi-cap DBM (10 rounds tops) and those that use a DBM concept that are reliable are too expensive/rare to be dropped and discarded.
If there were a bolt gun in .223 that accepted AR mags I'd be all over it but in discussing it with a smith it's really complicated to make a bolt gun function reliably with a hi-capacity DBM that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars in machine work and expertise.
I'd also agree there if they made an Accupoint with a ranging BDC reticle.
I'm not really sure of the point you're attempting to make here. If you want a .22 then use an AR. There is no advantage to putting a 5.56 in a bolt gun platform over an AR platform.
If you want larger magazine capacity and a full power cartridge then get a battle rifle.
By having a bolt action scout rifle in a full power cartridge with a clip slotted receiver you are only at a disadvantage in certain circumstances and in others you have quite an advantage. You also gain quite a bit of utility in terms of having a very ergonomic rifle.
thopkins22
11-08-09, 08:59
I'm not really sure of the point you're attempting to make here. If you want a .22 then use an AR. There is no advantage to putting a 5.56 in a bolt gun platform over an AR platform.
If you want larger magazine capacity and a full power cartridge then get a battle rifle.
By having a bolt action scout rifle in a full power cartridge with a clip slotted receiver you are only at a disadvantage in certain circumstances and in others you have quite an advantage. You also gain quite a bit of utility in terms of having a very ergonomic rifle.
Perhaps you missed the OP....
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos. What sort of bolt gun would you want for a defensive application? How would you set it up?
but that really just reinforces all the more why you'd want the .308. The rifles are the same size, action the same length, etc.
You're restricted, due to laws, to a slower-firing system. Why would you hamstring yourself even further with a lower-powered round?
thopkins22
11-08-09, 10:35
but that really just reinforces all the more why you'd want the .308. The rifles are the same size, action the same length, etc.
You're restricted, due to laws, to a slower-firing system. Why would you hamstring yourself even further with a lower-powered round?
While a pump gun can be pretty quick, I'm in total agreement. I do suppose penetration concerns could be a reason to want .223 over larger calibers.
Also take into consideration that the proposed scenario, will to a degree, determine a change in tactics. I would think that the lack of the semi-auto, will bring the shotgun up higher over the bolt, in the selection process as far as indoor defense is concerned. This limitation in functionality will remove many concerns for over penetration, and add further utility to a 308 over the 223.
Perhaps you missed the OP....
I knew there must have been some absurd, arbitrary reason for stuffing a .22 into a "fighting" bolt gun platform. If you want a larger magazine on your bolt gun then have it built with a Badger M5.
While a pump gun can be pretty quick, I'm in total agreement. I do suppose penetration concerns could be a reason to want .223 over larger calibers.
Over-penetration is the most overused reason for cartridge selection I can think of. Just use a frangible bullet in your .30 cal if it is that much of a concern.
A few updated shots of my 1903 Springfield 30-06 Scout:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9626/1009137.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/1009137.jpg/)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9603/1009138.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/1009138.jpg/)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6345/1009139f.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/1009139f.jpg/)
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9055/1009140.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/1009140.jpg/)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8519/1009141y.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/i/1009141y.jpg/)
Forrest
thopkins22
11-08-09, 23:49
Over-penetration is the most overused reason for cartridge selection I can think of.
No doubt.
A few updated shots of my 1903 Springfield 30-06 Scout:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9626/1009137.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/1009137.jpg/)
Forrest
Who makes that stock???
Savage 10 BAT/S-K – AccuTrigger™ and 3D Bedding
Gotta consider this weapon...
http://www.savagearms.com/10batsk.htm
JeffWard
Gutshot John
11-09-09, 23:08
I'm not really sure of the point you're attempting to make here. If you want a .22 then use an AR. There is no advantage to putting a 5.56 in a bolt gun platform over an AR platform.
If you're not sure of the point than you're free to disregard it, but the OP's scenario indicates that ARs are no longer available so I'm not really sure of the point you're making.
If you want larger magazine capacity and a full power cartridge then get a battle rifle.
Once again, the presumption is that semi-auto battle rifles etc are no longer legal and you have to go to a bolt gun.
By having a bolt action scout rifle in a full power cartridge with a clip slotted receiver you are only at a disadvantage in certain circumstances and in others you have quite an advantage. You also gain quite a bit of utility in terms of having a very ergonomic rifle.
In Dutch Harbor Alaska who cares what you use. In downtown Pittsburgh, living in a residential building or neighborhood, the same choice might not be applicable.
I'm confused by the assumption from others that a 5.56 is a less effective round in a bolt gun, but is perfectly adequate (if not superior) in a semi-auto than a .308.
If you want the bigger round then get the bigger round, the action is a secondary issue.
Savage 10 BAT/S-K – AccuTrigger™ and 3D Bedding
Gotta consider this weapon...
http://www.savagearms.com/10batsk.htm
JeffWard
It weighs 13.4 lbs before optics. Might be useful as a boat anchor.
I'm confused by the assumption from others that a 5.56 is a less effective round in a bolt gun, but is perfectly adequate (if not superior) in a semi-auto than a .308.
If you want the bigger round then get the bigger round, the action is a secondary issue.
I think the underlying assumption behind this thread is that the ideal fighting long gun is a semi auto carbine of some sort. Thus the question of what bolt gun do you use for fighting if you do not have a semi.
We use the 5.56 AR platform as our "gold standard" fighting long gun for a number of reasons including cost, availability, weight, reliability, accuracy, ergonomics, etc. I don't think anyone would say that 5.56 is the ideal man stopping cartridge from a long gun. In fact much of the history of that cartridge is geared at improving it's ability in that regard.
The action is not a secondary issue. In the semi auto world we are sort of saddled with the 5.56 AR. The 30 caliber battle rifle field is full of rifles that are less versatile than the 5.56 AR. They are either too heavy, too unreliable, too inaccurate, too expensive. The list goes on.
I don't think anyone is saying 5.56 is ideal. I certainly am not. I can live with it in the AR platform, but if am using a bolt gun I want 30 caliber and see no reason to limit myself to 5.56 in that platform.
In Dutch Harbor Alaska who cares what you use. In downtown Pittsburgh, living in a residential building or neighborhood, the same choice might not be applicable.
In Alaska, I for one, care what I use. I want it to go down hard when I hit it.
I believe Vang Comp 870s may be better suited to city dwellers than a carbine or rifle.
I have both so I have both ends covered.
Who makes that stock???
Stock is made by MPI. They are one of the few synthetic stockmakers who will work with the 1903. McMillan will not, unfortunately. MPI is good to work with and did a nice job. I recently had the LOP shortned on this stock and MPI repainted it when they had it for that work, thus the brand new paint job.
I'm liking the idea of a Steyr ProHunter with the SBS system; everyone who's spoken about them loves 'em, even if they're not well supported by the market. 5- and 10-round mags available, come in a bunch of calibers, lightweight, and chopping the barrel and having iron sights added isn't all that hard. I have no idea how long the stock is though. Still, $1200 for the base rifle isn't a cheap way to start a project...
-B
I'm liking the idea of a Steyr ProHunter with the SBS system; everyone who's spoken about them loves 'em, even if they're not well supported by the market. 5- and 10-round mags available, come in a bunch of calibers, lightweight, and chopping the barrel and having iron sights added isn't all that hard. I have no idea how long the stock is though. Still, $1200 for the base rifle isn't a cheap way to start a project...
-B
I have a Steyr SSG 69 and the Steyr 60 degree bolt throw has seriously less case extraction ability than a traditional Mauser type design. The SSG 69 has a plastic trigger guard and I believe the Pro Hunter does too. That is a weak point on a hard use rifle.
I'm confused by the assumption from others that a 5.56 is a less effective round in a bolt gun, but is perfectly adequate (if not superior) in a semi-auto than a .308.
If you want the bigger round then get the bigger round, the action is a secondary issue.
The action is the entire issue, actually.
A .308 bolt action will use the exact same action as a 5.56 (short action, FWIW) and in bolt guns the action winds up determining the size and weight of the overall firearm. A .308 semi-auto is a big sum-bitch, in all cases. FAL, M14, AR10, etc.
Similarly, the action type impacts the speed at which you can get shots on target. In a bolt action shot-to-shot time is almost entirely determined by how fast you can work the action and has almost no relationship to the caliber or recoil. In a semi-auto shot-to-shot time (given the same operating system) is almost entirely dictated by caliber and recoil.
So given that I'm going to have the exact same size and weight firearm whether I choose a small bullet or a big bullet, and given that I can make follow-up shots equally fast with the big bullet or the small bullet, I'll take the big bullet.
We choose the AR in 5.56 for a lot of reasons. The small bullet means you can carry more rounds in a smaller overall package and get more hits on target in the same amount of time. But on the commercial market it's also related to availability, accessory market, proliferation of ammo, and (for the vast majority of buyers) panache.
Now if you're only talking about shooting men, and you're more concerned with doing it indoors, then maybe there's an argument for the .223. But frankly I'd rather have a lever-action .357 in that situation if I can't have the AR.
HPFlashman
11-10-09, 08:40
Quite possible an Englishbuilt, straight pull AR15...:eek:
As seen here (http://www.bradleyarms.co.uk/products.html)
In Alaska, I for one, care what I use. I want it to go down hard when I hit it.
I believe Vang Comp 870s may be better suited to city dwellers than a carbine or rifle.
I have both so I have both ends covered.
To be fair to GSJ, I *think* he was referring to caliber selection based at least in part on over penetration and safety issues. I ASSume Dutch Harbor is sparsely populated compared to Pittsburgh, and maybe the idea of a round passing through a wall is less of a big deal.
FWIW I understand the points you are both trying to make.
This thread is pretty good. Thanks to all comers.
frbowers, That Scout is sweet!
I'm looking at a Mauser, converted over to 30.06, has the notch cut into the receiver for hunting ammo(so it fits with strippers) It needs refinishing and some work to get the scope mounted. Going to try it out with irons on Friday I hope. At the very least for the price, everything but the action will be "free" Meaning if it needs rebarreling, no biggie.
Mark
Gutshot John
11-10-09, 15:54
You choose the caliber based on what you intend to do. I don't choose a .308 for varmints anymore than I would take .223 for moose.
.308 is more powerful than .223 with superior incapacitation out to greater distances. This is true regardless of action is chosen.
If you're going to be shooting out of doors 90% of the time a .308 is certainly a better round. If you're moving through urban structures at closer ranges the lighter weight, greater amount of ammo, greater CQB applicability (something you might want on a fighting bolt gun) might make it a valid choice.
Once again people think because I said a .223 round might be a better choice for some, doesn't mean I said the .308 is shit for everyone else.
It's not an all or nothing world.
Less dogma.
You choose the caliber based on what you intend to do. I don't choose a .308 for varmints anymore than I would take .223 for moose.
A .308 110gr SMK is quite a varmint round. :D
(Not the point, I know...)
frbowers, That Scout is sweet!
I'm looking at a Mauser, converted over to 30.06, has the notch cut into the receiver for hunting ammo(so it fits with strippers) It needs refinishing and some work to get the scope mounted. Going to try it out with irons on Friday I hope. At the very least for the price, everything but the action will be "free" Meaning if it needs rebarreling, no biggie.
Mark
Thanks!
Sounds like your Mauser might be a good candidate for a new scout. Have a Lapour 3 position safety and Blackburn trigger installed and you will be good to go.
Forrest
Less dogma.
How about instead "less clinging to bad ideas, simply because you're the one that proposed them" ;)
I know there is a feeling that if you're going to have a bolt, have a full power rifle cartridge, but I think .223 is really more ideal as a fighting bolt gun which presumably includes some level of close range ability. In that vein a light-weight 3-4x scope would be fantastic.
I think there is a strong argument for .308 given reduced capacity. If you're going to have 4-6 rounds anyway I can see why one would chose a .308. If however you have the option of a high-capacity DBM bolt gun that is intended be used in firefights at varying distances and environments than a .223 has its virtues. It all depends on capacity.
You don't really see bolt guns that have hi-cap DBM (10 rounds tops) and those that use a DBM concept that are reliable are too expensive/rare to be dropped and discarded.
If there were a bolt gun in .223 that accepted AR mags I'd be all over it but in discussing it with a smith it's really complicated to make a bolt gun function reliably with a hi-capacity DBM that doesn't cost hundreds of dollars in machine work and expertise.
In Dutch Harbor Alaska who cares what you use. In downtown Pittsburgh, living in a residential building or neighborhood, the same choice might not be applicable.
I'm confused by the assumption from others that a 5.56 is a less effective round in a bolt gun, but is perfectly adequate (if not superior) in a semi-auto than a .308.
If you want the bigger round then get the bigger round, the action is a secondary issue.
You choose the caliber based on what you intend to do. I don't choose a .308 for varmints anymore than I would take .223 for moose.
.308 is more powerful than .223 with superior incapacitation out to greater distances. This is true regardless of action is chosen.
If you're going to be shooting out of doors 90% of the time a .308 is certainly a better round. If you're moving through urban structures at closer ranges the lighter weight, greater amount of ammo, greater CQB applicability (something you might want on a fighting bolt gun) might make it a valid choice.
Once again people think because I said a .223 round might be a better choice for some, doesn't mean I said the .308 is shit for everyone else.
To recap...
A .308 bolt action is going to be the exact same size and weight as a 5.56 with the exact same shot-to-shot time, and with (in theory, since large capacity magazine fed bolt actions are rare and expensive) the same number of rounds +/- 1 or 2. Given all of that, if choosing a bolt-action, the 5.56 makes no sense that I can see in any situation.
If your uses are urban or sub-urban house clearing and you don't have access to a semi-auto, a bolt action isn't what I'd choose anyway. Further negating the idea that a bolt-action .223 has any use.
Obviously you, or anyone else, is free to buy, build, and use whatever you want. I haven't seen a single compelling argument for using a bolt-action .223 given the parameters of this thread, and to me it is painfully clear that if one is limited to a gun of a certain weight, size, slowness of fire, and capacity, that you should take the largest readily available caliber they can get.
Gutshot John
11-11-09, 09:01
I never said 223 is the only real choice or even the best choice, I also never said .308 sucked, I simply said BOTH are legitimate choices depending on your requirements. I fail to see why that's so controversial or hard to grasp. That someone would think choosing .223 in a bolt gun is a "bad idea", but actively chooses it in a semi-auto is kind of goofball.
Since this is becoming silly just like any other "9mm v. 45" or "semi v. revolver" discussion I've ever had or heard I'll leave you guys to it.
One situation in which a .223 bolt gun might be preferred over a .308 would be if I was expecting to shoot a large number of rounds... more rounds than I'd expect to fire in the typical self defense or home defense scenario.
Maybe a "turkey shoot" scenario or perimeter defense from rooftop against marauding hoards of machete wielding rebels. It's not a "defensive" situation that I'd ever expect myself in, but perhaps it's a greater possibility for more traveled individuals in regions where only "sporting" arms are permitted.
The recoil from a .308 from a relatively light, non-varmint bolt action is simply going to take a toll on your ability to deliver accurate shots much sooner than a .223 from the same platform.
One situation in which a .223 bolt gun might be preferred over a .308 would be if I was expecting to shoot a large number of rounds... more rounds than I'd expect to fire in the typical self defense or home defense scenario.
Maybe a "turkey shoot" scenario or perimeter defense from rooftop against marauding hoards of machete wielding rebels.
Head shots on Zombies!!
Head shots on Zombies!!
Afterall, they're not going to kill themselves. :D
Alaskapopo
11-12-09, 02:17
Imagine a scenario where one had no more access to semi-autos. What sort of bolt gun would you want for a defensive application? How would you set it up?
I am about to move on a long-awaited precision rifle project, and I think that a GP bolt rifle project will be next. I am interested to hear the thoughts of some smart guys here at M4C.
If I could not have a Semi I would not chose a bolt I would take a lever or a pump gun. Bolts are way too slow to operate in close quarters.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-12-09, 02:18
I never said 223 is the only real choice or even the best choice, I also never said .308 sucked, I simply said BOTH are legitimate choices depending on your requirements. I fail to see why that's so controversial or hard to grasp. That someone would think choosing .223 in a bolt gun is a "bad idea", but actively chooses it in a semi-auto is kind of goofball.
Since this is becoming silly just like any other "9mm v. 45" or "semi v. revolver" discussion I've ever had or heard I'll leave you guys to it.
The .308 vs the .223 is no where close to the 9mm vs 45. The two pistol rounds are close in performance while the two rifle rounds in question are not.
Pat
Gutshot John
11-12-09, 10:30
The .308 vs the .223 is no where close to the 9mm vs 45. The two pistol rounds are close in performance while the two rifle rounds in question are not.
Pat
You walked 5 miles out of your way to miss the point. In the end the "this vs. that" debates in firearms are academic and more than a little silly.
Similarly your internet wisdom is flat wrong: While CERTAIN 9mm rounds might equal .45 terminal performance in a laboratory against ballistic gelatin it reacts very differently in a real world with barriers and objects in the way. This past week I SAW first hand what a difference a .45 or .357 sig makes against automobiles for instance while 9mm often didn't make it through a door of a Dodge Neon. Yep I shot up a car and there were witnesses on this forum.
This is not to say .45 is better or worse, it's simply to say that depending on what you want a .45 might be too much just as a 9mm might be too little.
Pick the one that works for you. A .223 is a perfectly adequate round in a fighting bolt gun.
Genuinely this time I'm out.
I would rather fight with a pistol or revolver in close quarters than fight with a bolt action rifle, the bolt action has a role and it is not a room clearing weapon.
In that regard here is my "fighting bolt action", had this shooting sub MOA on the 200yd line last weekend. The Leupold has held zero for more than 12months after all the range and field trips.
FNH PBR XP .308 Win
Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50mm TMR
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/FNPBRXP.jpg
Bolts are way too slow to operate in close quarters.
Have you ever timed yourself with a bolt gun and a lever gun? A bolt gun is not giving up anything in speed to a lever gun. At least a properly set up bolt gun.
I would rather fight with a pistol or revolver in close quarters than fight with a bolt action rifle, the bolt action has a role and it is not a room clearing weapon.
So you can get an accurate first round hit more quickly with a pistol than with a rifle? With my scout I can make a brain hit at 25 yards in about 0.7 seconds. I can not do that with a pistol. I agree that under certain circumstances a pistol is going to be the preferred weapon, but not if I know there will be a fight.
I think that people are getting wrapped around the axle here on some stuff.
In any case......while a bolt action wouldn't be anyone's first choice for an all around rifle, many troops had to make do in house to house fighting in WWII and Korea with bolt actions.
Larry Vickers had an episode of Tactical Impact that focused on Stalingrad, where his co-host used an MP-40 and Vickers used a Kar98K in a Blackwater shoot house.
Not anyone's first choice, but useable.
Alaskapopo
11-12-09, 14:22
You walked 5 miles out of your way to miss the point. In the end the "this vs. that" debates in firearms are academic and more than a little silly.
Similarly your internet wisdom is flat wrong: While CERTAIN 9mm rounds might equal .45 terminal performance in a laboratory against ballistic gelatin it reacts very differently in a real world with barriers and objects in the way. This past week I SAW first hand what a difference a .45 or .357 sig makes against automobiles for instance while 9mm often didn't make it through a door of a Dodge Neon. Yep I shot up a car and there were witnesses on this forum.
This is not to say .45 is better or worse, it's simply to say that depending on what you want a .45 might be too much just as a 9mm might be too little.
Pick the one that works for you. A .223 is a perfectly adequate round in a fighting bolt gun.
Genuinely this time I'm out.
No offense but your point was not valid and a .223 is a poor choice in a fighting bolt gun. Of course you are the same guy who recommended a double barrel shotgun for home defense. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.
Pat
I think that people are getting wrapped around the axle here on some stuff.
In any case......while a bolt action wouldn't be anyone's first choice for an all around rifle, many troops had to make do in house to house fighting in WWII and Korea with bolt actions.
Larry Vickers had an episode of Tactical Impact that focused on Stalingrad, where his co-host used an MP-40 and Vickers used a Kar98K in a Blackwater shoot house.
Not anyone's first choice, but useable.
Sage words. We have been really getting wrapped around the axle on this one.
Gutshot John
11-12-09, 16:29
No offense but your point was not valid and a .223 is a poor choice in a fighting bolt gun. Of course you are the same guy who recommended a double barrel shotgun for home defense. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye.
Pat
Thanks for the chuckle.
By that statement I conclude that semi-autos have become lawfully prohibited to civilians, and that the bolt action will be its replacement.
I ran an H-1 on my Steyr for a few months, and currently have the Leupold FX-II 2.5x scout scope remounted. The scout scope is a pretty efficient sight system, but it won't work in the dark. For an urban/suburban environment I think that a 1x Aimpoint with its superior capability during the hours of limited visibility, has a noticeable advantage over a non-illuminated scope. I need to save up to look into the option for an S&B Short Dot.
I'm also looking for the Steyr 10 rd magazine adaptor, which I do not think will affect the rifles balance too much.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2822/dsc00116yy3.jpg
Nah we cookin' wit hot grease.
An S&B Short Dot, Trijicon Accupoint or Leupold Mk IV 1.5x-5 scope makes the Steyr Scout (or any Scout) really shine.
One could purchase an FN SPR action and build anything he or she wants. Cetainly, Rock Creek, G.A. Precision, Pacnor would make the barrel for you. In that manner one would have a more durable Scout than what Steyr produces. I've thought about it. Blackened stainless polygonal rifled, cryoed, threaded with a Vortex or Surefire's suppressor/flash suppressor.
Maybe a Manners' equivalent to McMillan's HTG stock with a shortened length of pull.
I'd quickly purchase something like that.
Hell, I think I'll take my own advice for a change.
What about a CZ 550FS? This is a turnbolt with a detachable box mag, irons, and a Mannlicher style full stock. It occurs to me that a full stock *might* be good in that it might serve the same purpose as it (supposedly) does in a Euro-spec'd mountain gun- iow it protects the bbl from bumps and dings.
I have no idea how Mannlicher stocks effect accuracy, though. Any ideas?
What about a CZ 550FS? This is a turnbolt with a detachable box mag, irons, and a Mannlicher style full stock. It occurs to me that a full stock *might* be good in that it might serve the same purpose as it (supposedly) does in a Euro-spec'd mountain gun- iow it protects the bbl from bumps and dings.
I have no idea how Mannlicher stocks effect accuracy, though. Any ideas?
As long as the stock does not touch the barrel I don't see how it would hurt.
I've no real world experience with the CZ but it should work fine.
Alaskapopo
03-01-10, 00:44
As long as the stock does not touch the barrel I don't see how it would hurt.
I've no real world experience with the CZ but it should work fine.
That is the problem it does touch the barrel all the way out.
Pat
I think that people are getting wrapped around the axle here on some stuff.
In any case......while a bolt action wouldn't be anyone's first choice for an all around rifle, many troops had to make do in house to house fighting in WWII and Korea with bolt actions.
Larry Vickers had an episode of Tactical Impact that focused on Stalingrad, where his co-host used an MP-40 and Vickers used a Kar98K in a Blackwater shoot house.
Not anyone's first choice, but useable.
The Mujahideen (or however it is spelled) in Afghanistan often had to make use of Enfield SMLE or other bolt action as a fighting rifle.
JeepDriver
03-01-10, 11:15
Remington 700 PSS cut down to 18" and threaded for QD suppressor mount.
Leupold MK4 2.5-8 MR/T M2
LaRue base and rings
Badger M5 bottom metal
Badger bolt knob
I am very happy with my steyr scout in this scenario- alot of posters indicating a custom built up gun, While the steyr IS expensive, if you buy a base gun then send it out for work the price would not end up being very different if any. Only downside to the steyr is a limited amount of parts/intermittent availability in theUS
i got the Savage scout 2 weeks ago, and have had it out once so far and i am very happy with it. its been too cold to sit down and punch some paper, but i did take a coyote with it, as well as several hedge balls :D out to 125+ yards using the iron sights. when i get settled in with it, ill see just how well it shoots
goodoleboy
03-02-10, 16:02
Enfield SMLE, I don't own one, but that would be my first choice. I would have to get proficient enough with it to do the Mad Minute, 200 yards, 30 aimed shots at a man-sized target in under 1 minute.
Marlin 1894.
Make it a Marlin 336. .30-30 ammo is everywhere and guns are very reliable in my experience.changing my vote to the Marlin 336 in 30-30 due to ammo availability. have the xs rail mounted, just have to find the time to mount / sight in the leupold scout scope.
VooDoo6Actual
04-01-10, 14:37
H&S Precison Sniper Weapon System (SWS) folding stock .338 Lapua Magnum bolt-action rifle made by H-S Precision, Inc.
The SWS became the "very first American-designed and manufactured .338 Lapua sniper rifle adopted by any military in the world.
YMMV....
Alpha Sierra
04-01-10, 22:41
The whole "sniper" thing isn't something that interests me as I'm not sure how or where I would apply the skills.
Not everything has to have a practical use or goal.
Excellence in long range marksmanship is a goal in and of itself.
Bolt gun; I'd buy my Jungle Carbine back from the guy I sold it to.
Otherwise I'd find an 03A3.
I'd be looking at a Marlin lever action as well, with XS sights and scout rail and an Aimpoint T1 or H1.
I'de go with an Enfield SMLE. They can be operated quite rapidly.
Concur, Short Magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE). No 1 or No 4, doesn't matter.
How about the Tikka T3 Battue Lite?
http://www.tikka.fi/t3models.php?battuelite
http://www.tikka.fi/pdf/specs/T3Battue_lite.pdf
Good find on that Tikka with iron sights.
GermanSynergy
04-07-10, 15:42
What about a K98k and an Aimpoint T-1 Micro?
does anyone remember the Quest Carbines that were around maybe 5 years ago? a remake of the Jungle Carbine with some improvevents for accuracy if memory serves correct. another one im considering picking up in the next couple months is the Tanker carbine M63(?) from Mitchells Mausers...243, .308, and '06 are the possiblities. i have a K98 i bought from them years ago, and i really like it, but it doesnt get shot much due to the ammo availability.
Good find on that Tikka with iron sights.
I've seen this one and it is intriguing. The Tikka mags are supposed to work well, or so I've heard.
i have a K98 i bought from them years ago, and i really like it, but it doesnt get shot much due to the ammo availability.
That's why I'm glad I bought a full crate of surplus Prvi 7.92mm a few years back... $75 per 900 rounds. I'm only half way through it, but I get to shoot the K98 as much as I like.
Paraclete comes
04-26-10, 04:08
I would take a M40A1 with a S&B short dot on it
Not everything has to have a practical use or goal.
Excellence in long range marksmanship is a goal in and of itself.
I'd need a Sherpa to stand there with me just to keep me from falling asleep from boredom.
Not really into the "goal in and of itself" thing.
Might also want to double check on that whole thread title thing, modern "fighting bolt gun". ;)
Well, I split the baby and got 2 rifles- a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 and an SPS .308. The CZ is going to be a GP light rifle.
Has anybody else made a move on starting a similar project since this thread ran its course the first time around? Just curious.
kaiservontexas
10-04-10, 01:02
Reading around and read this thread since I am waiting for something to finish d/ling.
I will be the odd ball. I shoot them often due to having so much ammo, buy cheap stack deep! The M44 Mosin-Nagant rifle as is not changed or modernized. Hey if they are close enough it is the ultimate club/pike. I just enjoy them. For distance though my Win. Pre-64 Mod. 70 in .30-06. Thank God though we can own our semi-autos and NFA guns.
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