View Full Version : Help! - Oly crash & burn... :0(
I hadn't quite made it thru 200 rnds. of AmEagle XM193 when this K3B malfs. I strip out the PMAG to find the bolt will only pulllback about half way, showing brass - but not enough to lock the bolt back. It will not separate when the takedown pin is pulled; almost as if the buffer tube jumped its niche and is locking up the takedown. Help?!?!?!....
P.S.: Okay, okay - go ahead and say it...I can take it....!!!
Interesting. Do you have pictures?
geminidglocker
10-19-09, 17:00
Do you mean to say;"As if the buffer has jumped over the buffer retention detent stop."?:confused:
If that is the case, it will likely be necessary to remove both the castle nut and the receiver extension tube. Then, you will be able to remove the buffer from the rear.
P.S. Don't forget there are springs involved.
That's what it "feels" like; can't understand why the upper and lower will not pivot apart. Can't see anything except light in the <1/16" of an inch it actually DOES come apart...
It is most likely a blown out primer floating around between the upper and the BCG. It could also be the cam pin (the part that connects the bolt to the carrier). You will most likely have to remove the receiver extension and remove the bolt and other parts through the rear of the receiver.
There is a special tool you can buy that will stop this from happening ever again. It's called a Noveske N4. :D
ETA: Didn't think about the buffer retaining pin but it still needs to come apart the same way.
Thomas M-4
10-19-09, 17:11
Have you tried pushing out both pins front and rear?
Copy the N4 ....."advice"..... :( !!!!!!!!! LOL
geminidglocker
10-19-09, 17:24
I'de just like to commend those of us, whom instead of just flaming his rifle, are genuinely trying to figure out his issue. From a gunsmithing stand point, I'm just interested to learn about the issue, not bash the brand. ;) Oh, and I agree, Try removing both receiver pins.
spamsammich
10-19-09, 18:07
Where in western WA are you? Can you bring it to Rainier?
Let me say this about that, geminidglocker: Thank you ALL for the respect. I had a bit of trepidation about posting this "Help!", but, as I've come to 'know' this forum, between the rolling eyes and the flaming arrows - lies a path to resolution. I turned to the people I have come to think of as knowledgeable on this one because it was important to me to fix the problem and learn, too. If things had worked out differently at purchase time, yeah, sure: I'd have gladly gone another route. But it didn't. So - you do what you can.....
Will advise ~
Doogie
Oops _ Edit. Northern Nevada, now..!! ;)
RogerinTPA
10-19-09, 18:22
It is most likely a blown out primer floating around between the upper and the BCG. It could also be the cam pin (the part that connects the bolt to the carrier). You will most likely have to remove the receiver extension and remove the bolt and other parts through the rear of the receiver.
There is a special tool you can buy that will stop this from happening ever again. It's called a Noveske N4. :D
ETA: Didn't think about the buffer retaining pin but it still needs to come apart the same way.
Roger that. Shooting XM193, a popped primer would be my guess as well. That ammo is the most common that is talked about, as far as popped primers are concerned. In my last class, a guy was popping them almost continuously, locking up the BCG, on TD1, until he switched ammo on TD2.
Someone had a thread on here, about a popped primer landing in the cam pin hole, locking up his weapon.
spamsammich
10-19-09, 18:27
Do you mean to say;"As if the buffer has jumped over the buffer retention detent stop."?:confused:
If that is the case, it will likely be necessary to remove both the castle nut and the receiver extension tube. Then, you will be able to remove the buffer from the rear.
P.S. Don't forget there are springs involved.
this is your best bet for getting it apart again if you can't pop both pins and separate it.
I'de just like to commend those of us, whom instead of just flaming his rifle, are genuinely trying to figure out his issue. From a gunsmithing satand point, I'm just interested to learn about the issue, not bash the brand. ;) Oh, and I agree, Try removing both receiver pins.
If this were a bushmaster, cmmg, dpms, or some other mid/low grade gun I could agree.
But Oly is such a bad gun that trying to understand the junk they crank out is a waste of one's time. All you need to understand about Oly is that it's trash and should be avoided without exception.
geminidglocker
10-19-09, 18:52
If this were a bushmaster, cmmg, dpms, or some other mid/low grade gun I could agree.
But Oly is such a bad gun that trying to understand the junk they crank out is a waste of one's time. All you need to understand about Oly is that it's trash and should be avoided without exception.
Granted, but seeing as how the OP is willing to roll with the punches, do you have a "Gunsmith Kinks" version of help. I'll bet that although the OPs rifle is "Sub-Par", it is most likely fixable and he came here looking for nothing else, knowing that he would be flamed. So, can we get a new forum for the "Non-Teir one rifles" Likely, in time these folks will upgrade to higher end weapons by staying on this forum, as opposed to scareing them away. It has been obvious lately that some folks enjoy shooting,...Is it not our duty to attempt to educate them? We should atleast make every effort. Well, there's my two cents. He still did not tell us whether or not he attempted to remove the "Hinge-Pin" on the front of the reciever.
geminidglocker
10-19-09, 19:23
Next time I have a problem with one of my teir one rifles, I am going to say that it was an RRA,DPMS,OLY,ETC; Most likely will never happen, but if I do have a critical malfunction on one of my good rifles, I'll pretend that it happened to one of my "Lower-teir" weapons. You wil all flame me, likely I would flame me too. But Surprise,Surprise,Surprise.......Lo and Behold, a legitimate failure in a (Insert name of Tier One manufacturer here) That should keep us on our toes for a bit.
P.S. If this post is offensive to anyone, please kindly delete it. I am not trying to start anything, I just want to keep the new folks interested in fixing or hopefully upgradeing their AR. If I wanted to be a dick I'de have stayed in Iraq.
And yes, I agree, Olympic should just call it quits.
Hey Doogie,Get rid of the thing, It is quite likely worth something toward a trade in.
Gemini, I agree with you 100%. All joking aside, most of us have owned inferior brands in the past. I was once a proud owner of an Oly and a Bushy at the same time. FWIW, the Bushy never gave me a problem, it was just something I didn't want anymore so I got rid of it at the right price. I now have a Frankengun that I still don't believe is "Tier 1" but I have come a VERY long way and have learned a ton of things on this forum! What I like the most about this forum, and this thread is a perfect example, is that no one has ever told me or anyone posting a question about their Oly, Bushy, RRA or the like that their gun is a POS and to get rid of it. The OP, knowing he was going to get shelled with a little bit of sarcasm, asked his question on M4C for one reason and one reason only.... He was going to get the help he needed. EVERYONE that replied gave him the right advice and rather quickly, if I might add. The bad publicity about the "lower tier" bashing on M4C comes from people who post here thinking that their AR is the best and no one is going to tell them different. I have NEVER been told that my choice in an AR part was not a good idea without PROOF as to why I could get something MUCH better for just a LITTLE bit more cash.
After reading these forums I've been upgrading all my M4's I putting either Bravo Co M16 bolt carrier groups .I'm putting H buffers in all of them.In one I did use a M16 CMT boltcarrier mp tested bolt upgraded the bolt with Bravo Co extractor spring with O ring.They have chromlined barrels with M4 feedramps.
Whatelse can I do .I think I've got the bases covered
I also Properly Staked the castle nut and bolt carrier key.
It's almost as good as a Colt
Maybe the guy bought his Oly before he found this site. Maybe he bought his Oly when Oly's were better than the SP1 crap colt was peddling to the masses. Maybe the only rifle available for a decent price for 200 miles was his Oly. I give the guy kudos for having an AR, any AR, and seeking the wisdom of those here willing to give it without knocking his gear. He is here to learn, just like everyone else. His particular malfunction sounds ammo related to me and if so the same problem could even knock the exalted Noveske off of its mantle. Answer his question, help him out, and keep your opinions of his Oly to yourselves. Personally, I think the majority of those here who belittle the rifles of others have checkbooks and mouths more capable than their shooting and tactical ability.
A few thoughts here.
Since DPMS is known for tight barrels my guess is that there is a primer lodged either in the bolt cam area or worst case scenario in between the walls of the upper and the BCG.
I recommend getting the proper tools and removing the lower receiver extension aka buffer tube. Once you have done that you can use a light and possibly get a better view of what is happening.
If it is in the cam pin/ bolt area you may have to use a brass punch and come in through the ejection port and tap the bolt carrier to the rear. I HIGHLY ENCOURAGE A BRASS PUNCH as it will not damage the receiver or leave scaring like a steel one.
These types of things tend to be a pain in the ass and just expect that you may experience a little damage to some small parts.
Just realized Oly is Olympic Arms...I kept trying to figure out where the Oly (Oly= Norwegian from Montana) fit in to the problem:p
Just realized Oly is Olympic Arms...I kept trying to figure out where the Oly (Oly= Norwegian from Montana) fit in to the problem:p
Ole, Lena's husband.
Granted, but seeing as how the OP is willing to roll with the punches, do you have a "Gunsmith Kinks" version of help. I'll bet that although the OPs rifle is "Sub-Par", it is most likely fixable and he came here looking for nothing else, knowing that he would be flamed. So, can we get a new forum for the "Non-Teir one rifles" Likely, in time these folks will upgrade to higher end weapons by staying on this forum, as opposed to scareing them away. It has been obvious lately that some folks enjoy shooting,...Is it not our duty to attempt to educate them? We should atleast make every effort. Well, there's my two cents. He still did not tell us whether or not he attempted to remove the "Hinge-Pin" on the front of the reciever.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39614
C4
Next time I have a problem with one of my teir one rifles, I am going to say that it was an RRA,DPMS,OLY,ETC; Most likely will never happen, but if I do have a critical malfunction on one of my good rifles, I'll pretend that it happened to one of my "Lower-teir" weapons. You wil all flame me, likely I would flame me too. But Surprise,Surprise,Surprise.......Lo and Behold, a legitimate failure in a (Insert name of Tier One manufacturer here) That should keep us on our toes for a bit.
P.S. If this post is offensive to anyone, please kindly delete it. I am not trying to start anything, I just want to keep the new folks interested in fixing or hopefully upgradeing their AR. If I wanted to be a dick I'de have stayed in Iraq.
And yes, I agree, Olympic should just call it quits.
Hey Doogie,Get rid of the thing, It is quite likely worth something toward a trade in.
Every and ANY AR can malfunction. That really isn't what we are talking about though.
The two most logical reason for the OP's problem is a blown primer or his buffer retainer has come out and is lodged somewhere.
The usual reason for a blown primer is because the chamber is too tight and the case could not expand. Having reamed a few too many Oly barrels, I can tell you that they generally DO NOT use a TRUE 556 NATO chamber (no matter what it says on the barrel).
If the buffer retainer came out, then that usually means that the castle nut was not staked and the RE moved around until the buffer retainer released into the weapon.
C4
A couple things: 1) Thank you ALL!!! I ghosted these forums for a couple weeks before jumping in; looking at other sites, I found there is very little wisdom of this quality out there, so I joined up - fully aware what the opinions of my "non-Tier 1" piece were (*laughing!*) 2) The OA was a purchase based on a first-time buyer/price point/lack of proper research-type sceanrio. C'est la vie, no? Anyway, after I pull both pins this a.m. and/or otherwise fix the problem - away it goes. (tho I WILL take my T-1 w/ me..!) ;)
Being what I consider a relatively smart guy, there will be none of this, "...but this is my first baby...and I can fix her and make her happenin'!"-type of crap. When one's confidence in a (home AND work :eek: ) defensive weapons system is destroyed, I feel it should be treated as a lame horse.
Will advise on the outcome, and...thanks again, everybody.
Okay, here's where I am: After removing both pins, the upper and lower still refused to separate. The front (pivot pin) end of the lower would drop about 3/4" - and not budge. After some..."judicious manipulation";)...and a spectacular left-handed catch of the buffer tube assembly :eek: worthy of a YouTube moment, we have separation.
Upon examination, this piece (001) was found down in the trigger assembly, locking it up. It looks as though it may have come from the area between the end of the buffer tube itself and the rear take-down pin (002). Is this the buffer retainer pin?? The BCG required a nominal amount of pressure to get it to break free (almost as if it was "stuck" ) and slide out, but it did. The casing was found in the fired position but also required physical removal. The casing itself (003) looks normal; the primer still seated after the strike.
Thoughts???
Doogie
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday001.jpg
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday005.jpg
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday002.jpg
Yes, that is the buffer retaining pin. Your castle nut is on backwards: did you do that or did it come that way? It is also not staked (as suspected by earlier posters). The receiver extension must have just been on the edge of holding down the retaining pin before you went shooting. It presumably backed off enough to allow the retaining pin to spring loose and really screw up your gun.
Here's an image of what the buffer retaining pin should look like when the weapon has been properly assembled:
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WeaponEvolution.com/IMG_4734%201028%20WEVO%20Stick.jpg
decodeddiesel
10-20-09, 12:40
There should be a small spring (the buffer retaining detent spring) floating around in there as well...
CaptainDooley
10-20-09, 12:45
I'll have to remember this thread the next time someone on another forum advocates lock-tite'ing a castle nut or says that it's not necessary to stake it...
spamsammich
10-20-09, 12:47
Yeah, that receiver extension needs an extra full turn to properly capture that retaining pin. I would not be surprised if the castle nut came like that. One of the tables at our local gun show is always chock full of Oly goodness and at least half of those complete guns had backwards castle nuts. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just 1 among a bunch of guns, but half of them tells me that whoever built those rifles is just phoning it in and doesn't give a shit. This is why, despite my efforts to support the local economy as much as reasonable, I would not piss on Oly if that joint were on fire (again).
Doogie- At least you have a good attitude. Now buy a Colt.:D Yeh, yeh, M4cer's, or a DD, LMT, BCM, Noveske, or LWRC.
The rifle came the way it is. To be positive about the next step, you're saying I need to clamp the receiver extention and give it one full turn to bring it into proper spacing with the pin??
Note: there is no detent spring to be found in there - anywhere :confused: (theme from "The Twilight Zone" plays here...)
Some time ago, wasn't there a thread all about staking, with some really great photos??? Can anyone provide a link to that bad boy??
Doog
Okay, here's where I am: After removing both pins, the upper and lower still refused to separate. The front (pivot pin) end of the lower would drop about 3/4" - and not budge. After some..."judicious manipulation";)...and a spectacular left-handed catch of the buffer tube assembly :eek: worthy of a YouTube moment, we have separation.
Upon examination, this piece (001) was found down in the trigger assembly, locking it up. It looks as though it may have come from the area between the end of the buffer tube itself and the rear take-down pin (002). Is this the buffer retainer pin?? The BCG required a nominal amount of pressure to get it to break free (almost as if it was "stuck" ) and slide out, but it did. The casing was found in the fired position but also required physical removal. The casing itself (003) looks normal; the primer still seated after the strike.
Thoughts???
Doogie
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday001.jpg
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday005.jpg
http://s693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/evhausr/?action=view¤t=Tuesday002.jpg
HOT DAMN I WAS RIGHT! What did I win??? :D
Yes, that is your buffer retainer. There is also a spring that it sits on.
So here is what happened. The RE (receiver extension AKA buffer tube) was BARELY holding it in. Your castle nut was not staked and under the vibration and manipulation of the stock while shooting, it backed off and the RE turned. This shot the buffer retainer up into the receiver and caused your current problem.
C4
The rifle came the way it is. To be positive about the next step, you're saying I need to clamp the receiver extention and give it one full turn to bring it into proper spacing with the pin??
Note: there is no detent spring to be found in there - anywhere :confused: (theme from "The Twilight Zone" plays here...)
You need the spring. It might be in your FCG or in the RE somewhere (or on the floor).
Do not bother putting anything back together without this.
C4
WOO-HOO!!! Found the spring, everything is properly positioned, and back together it goes! :D
As soon as I figure out how to stake the nut (because I couldn't, in good conscience, trade this off w/o it being fully functional (such as THAT is...:rolleyes:), I can go shopping!!!
Wow - thank you all, so much! What a great education! That, plus knowing what to look for this time - well, that's a pretty big deal, to me...
Happy Shooting!!!
Doog
spamsammich
10-20-09, 14:56
just double checking, you did flip that castle nut around, yeah?
You have two choices. Sell it as is and let the buyer know that it needs to be staked or stake it now. What you will need is a staking punch and preferably a brass hammer or light steel hammer.
Ensure that the castle nut is installed properly with the large cuts facing towards the shooter.
Place the punch on the edge of the receiver end plate and angle it slightly towards the castle (looking for the small staking cuts) give the punch and light tap to get it started. Once that is done give it a few more wacks until the metal from the end plate has "peened" into the staking cut out.
WOO-HOO!!! Found the spring, everything is properly positioned, and back together it goes! :D
As soon as I figure out how to stake the nut (because I couldn't, in good conscience, trade this off w/o it being fully functional (such as THAT is...:rolleyes:), I can go shopping!!!
Wow - thank you all, so much! What a great education! That, plus knowing what to look for this time - well, that's a pretty big deal, to me...
Happy Shooting!!!
Doog
geminidglocker
10-20-09, 15:47
I'm glad we were able to help you in a respectful and professional manner. You've been a good sport about the brand bashing thing, and so have we. We all learned something and are better for it. ;)
Good job Doogie! Good luck in your shopping! (cough cough Noveske Cough) :D
As soon as I figure out how to stake the nut
A hammer and a punch should do the trick. They've served me well the 2 times I used it on the ASAP.
Just realized Oly is Olympic Arms...I kept trying to figure out where the Oly (Oly= Norwegian from Montana) fit in to the problem:p
Typically from Minnesota
--
Sven and Ole were on opposite sides of the Swedish Norwegian war. Ole was sitting in the trenches with one of his buddies and says, "watch this"
Ole, yelling to the opposing trenches: "Hey Sven!"
Sven pops his head up and yells back "Ja, Ole?"
whereup Ole takes aim and drills one to Sven between the eyes.
After laughing with his bud a bit, he does it again
Ole: "Hey Sven!"
Sven (#2 -- all the Swedes are called Sven) pops his head up and Ole nails him between the eyes.
After awhile, Sven figures it out and figures two can play this game.
So, the next day, Sven yells out over the trenches: "Hey, Ole!"
At which point, Ole yells back: "Is that you Sven?"
Hearing his name, Sven pops his head up and says "Ja it is" and Ole nails him.
Chad
mom's side is almost 100% Norwegian with a little Lap and Swedish
Thanks to all; GTG. (Was a little nervous, at first, hearing the words "nut" and "stake" in the same sentence, tho...:D)
Doogie
After this problem the OP has is "fixed" it would be wise for him to part out this gun and sell it off and buy something better.
another reason why you dont shoot 5.56x45mm ammo in a lower QC built weapon without checking the chamber??
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