View Full Version : At what price point would you start switching to lower tiers?
misanthropist
10-19-09, 17:41
I'm writing this as a followup to a post I wrote this morning talking about the Canadian AR market.
I am really hoping this is not going to be a slagfest thread. That's not what I'm shooting for at all. I am a believer in upper tier ARs and not at all one of the "My OLY is as good as your COLT!" people.
But what I am wondering is, just how much is that upper tier worth to all of you?
For example:
In the US, ARs are pretty cheap. Up here, they're MUCH more expensive and the spread is huge. So what if your price spread was very different than it is?
Imagine that a Bushmaster was $1000, and a Colt was $3000. Would you still buy the Colt? Or would you be thinking that a well staked BM was starting to look pretty attractive?
Imagine these were your options and this was the pricing for base models:
Imperial Defense UK $900
Armalite, Bushmaster, Stag, CMMG $1500
S&W MP15 $1700
Sabre $1800
Daniel Defense $2000
LMT $2500
Colt $3000
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this; everybody has a different set of demands and a different budget. I would always rather have one of the last 3 on the list, but I am wondering if you would all pay the extra thousand or two dollars for the upper tier, or would you buy a known-quantitiy mid-tier like CMMG and tweak it with a new BCG and do some staking on your home workbench?
Just get one of the "lower" tiers, get a new BCG from Bravo, and spend the rest on training.
I have Noveskes, Colts, Rock Rivers, Sun Devils, LMT's etc etc, and for what civilians do with them, you are gtg with the "lower" tier, they are just fine.
If I had the US options, I would go with the upper tier, but with your price differences, just change out the bolt carrier group and spend the rest on training and ammo.
quite simple... i'd order whatever stripped lower was the cheapest, and order LMT parts from the States and build my own.
misanthropist
10-19-09, 18:12
quite simple... i'd order whatever stripped lower was the cheapest, and order LMT parts from the States and build my own.
Unfortunately there is no cheating allowed here!
Most of the important bits - barrel for instance, or upper, or LPK, require an export permit for each item - assuming your government will allow the item to be exported at all, which is often not the case! They can be very sticky about flash hiders, for instance.
The export process is not cheap. I believe for parts the cheapest I have seen is $149 for the first part and $99 for every other part on the same order.
As you can imagine that adds up to similar pricing to whole ARs pretty quick!
how close are you to the border? get a PO box on the US side and bootleg the gear back home.
how close are you to the border? get a PO box on the US side and bootleg the gear back home.
I doubt the money saved would be worth all the trouble that would get someone in. Last new years I went to Canada, they spent 2 hours going through my truck while they made me sit outside in 20 degree weather.
CaptainDooley
10-19-09, 18:51
Armalite, Bushmaster, Stag, CMMG $1500
Daniel Defense $2000
The difference in these rifles is worth $500 to me.
Given those prices, I'd get a Daniel Defense. They're generally considered one of the best ARs out there, especially for the money.
Next up, I'd go with a Smith & Wesson.
misanthropist
10-19-09, 19:38
I doubt the money saved would be worth all the trouble that would get someone in. Last new years I went to Canada, they spent 2 hours going through my truck while they made me sit outside in 20 degree weather.
Actually in this case the problem is not Canada...there is no legal issue with bringing any AR parts IN except the lower, and that is just a matter of filling in paperwork.
No, the problem is the US department of state! Exporting the stuff from the US side is the dangerous part as lots of AR bits are ITAR controlled and giving them to Canucks is verboten.
So if it were just a matter of paying duty I probably wouldn't worry...well, I'd probably just pay and forget the whole thing.
But if you get caught EXPORTING the stuff from the US without the right fees and paperwork, THAT is when the Homeland Security fun begins. I wouldn't be violating Canadian laws, I'd be violating US laws and that is not something I'm super hot on doing!
Anyway I'm not asking what I should do given that I am facing these prices - I know what I would do! I'm more interested in what everyone else would do, and what the tiers are worth to each of us individually.
I am pretty much in line with the last couple of posters...I think once you begin spending on US built ARs the DD is the way to go. But I live with these prices every day. I wondered if everyone would feel the same if the prices were just suddenly dropped on them? Or if the home stake job CMMGs would be good enough at that price.
Failure2Stop
10-19-09, 19:45
how close are you to the border? get a PO box on the US side and bootleg the gear back home.
Advocating or encouraging the violation of this or another soverign nation's weapons laws will not be tolerated on this forum.
geminidglocker
10-19-09, 20:02
I think I'de continue building rifles, as opposed to letting others build them for me. Gee, it all makes perfect sense.:confused:
I would buy the Bushmaster buy a mil spec Bravo co tele stock buy an H buffer and a Bravo Co M16 Bolt carrier and BCM bolt
If I were going to be taking carbine classes and or shooting in matches, I would spring for the Colt or DD or LMT. If not then I would buy the BM and make it as reliable as possible. I didn't think any gun parts could be exported with ease so I don't know if you could even have a BCM BCG shipped up there.
QuickStrike
10-19-09, 22:11
I'd still save up and buy the best rifles.
Wouldn't mind if I had to save up a couple of paychecks to get it either.
misanthropist
10-19-09, 23:31
If I were going to be taking carbine classes and or shooting in matches, I would spring for the Colt or DD or LMT. If not then I would buy the BM and make it as reliable as possible. I didn't think any gun parts could be exported with ease so I don't know if you could even have a BCM BCG shipped up there.
It could be done but it would be expensive and paperwork-intensive.
I could have sworn that when i was reading through the ITAR paperwork that the rules were not the same for Canada. I may need to go back and re-read it.
On that list, I'd get the DD as well. Seems like a good quality/cost match plus it already has a great rail system, foregrip and backup irons.
Beat Trash
10-20-09, 05:18
Given those prices, I'd get a Daniel Defense. They're generally considered one of the best ARs out there, especially for the money.
Next up, I'd go with a Smith & Wesson.
This is what I am thinking also...
What's the story with AKs up there?
'Round here, I have long advocated that the better sub-$1k AR is an AK, and the best sub-$700 AR is definitely an AK.
My AK, with optic, cost me just a hair over $1k. My BCM complete gun (my least expensive 5.56 AR) cost me $1600+/- with optic. If I only had that $1600 I would buy the AK and ammo and magazines for it, and seek out learning and training opportunities on the cheap.
I think it all depends on what you're trying to do with this rifle. Are you planning on spending time at rigorous training classes that run your weapon hard? Or are you just trying to go plinking every now and then with friends/family? For the former, I would absolutely advocate the DD, LMT, or Colt. If you're just going to the range every now and then and only looking to shoot maybe a couple thousand rounds of 55-68gr ammunition a year, it isn't really necessary to have a top-tier AR. My dad owns an RRA and we've put at least 3000 rounds through it over the past couple years without a malfunction. It is also very accurate with 55gr loads. Has it every been run very hard, though? No, not at all.
You have to assess what you plan to do with this rifle first. At that point you can then begin to justify if you really need that Tier 1 Mil-spec Colt. If you need that quality and assurance and your funds allow, then go for it. Otherwise, that money could be better spent towards ammunition, training, an optic, magazines, etc. Hope this helps.
DD is a good deal compared to the Colt (2/3rd the cost). I would also consider the Sabre if I had access to a mi spec RE and stock or if going with a 20" rifle. Third would be Armalite.
Colt b/c I consider every gun I purchase as a possible stake my life on it gun. I can deal with the diff. in price w/o sacrificing ammo or training.
misanthropist
10-20-09, 11:42
On that list, I'd get the DD as well. Seems like a good quality/cost match plus it already has a great rail system, foregrip and backup irons.
Well, $2000 would unfortunately not get you one with a rail...that would be $2300 + applicable taxes etc. But I take your point.
AKs are effectively absolutely prohibited up here, so that is out.
But what we do have up here, cheap and common, are VZ-58 pattern rifles, plus access to cheap Czech x39. I bought 6000 rounds not long ago for under a thousand bucks and you can have all you want at those prices, there are several million rounds at a shop in town here.
So that is what I run. Cheap to own, cheap to feed, milled receivers, good aftermarket support in this country.
I do like the AR platform, though, and with the advent of P-mags I think we will see it as the military's primary system for a long time to come, which to my way of thinking makes it a useful platform for the individual to maintain.
At least if I were primarily using ARs I would not be stuck trying to make kydex belt holsters for VZ mags! But then 5.56 ammo up here runs around $600/1000, not $150/1000 for x39, so I probably wouldn't be shooting it as much.
misanthropist - In your case I would go ahead and get the Bushmaster, some mags, sling, ammo, etc.
The Bushmaster should be fine just give it a good once over and check things like the tightness of the gas key and buffer tube and make sure the front sight base is straight.
Clean it, get it sighted in and get some rounds through it to make sure it's good to go.
Bushmaster and upgrade when and where possible.
Given those prices I'd probably go with the Daniel Defense. I don't think the pony rollmark is worth $500 more than the DD. However, the quality of the DD to me would be worth $500 over the Bushmaster/CMMG. That $500 would be a distant memory within a few weeks, whereas the irritation of having settled for a lower tier gun would be there for as long as I owned it.
Given those choices, I would get the Daniel Defense for $2000.
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