View Full Version : So That Is Why We Lost In Vietnam...
Listening to all this talk about staked carrier keys got me thinking.
So I went digging in the back of the safe with all my old Colt SP1s (early 70s-early 80s dates) and found this.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3895/00000000268.jpg
Catastrophic bolt carrier key fail.
Now I don't have a round count but these were my regular shooters for about 25 years. And despite being staked about the same as my Bushmaster, somehow the carrier keys aren't loose.
So what exactly is your point? I have never heard anybody here say that if every thing is not perfect on your weapon it will definitely result in disaster. The point has always been about he odds being higher or lower depending on the flaw.
So what exactly is your point? I have never heard anybody here say that if every thing is not perfect on your weapon it will definitely result in disaster. The point has always been about he odds being higher or lower depending on the flaw.
There are a couple guys here who act like Bushmasters fail right out of the box. Just having a little bit of fun with that notion.
My point is the AR-15/M-16 didn't have uber staked carrier keys until very recently. And while I agree it is a positive improvement, that doesn't make old Colts, Bushmasters, RRA, etc. hunks of junk ready to pop their keys.
Heavy Metal
10-20-09, 18:29
Listening to all this talk about staked carrier keys got me thinking.
So I went digging in the back of the safe with all my old Colt SP1s (early 70s-early 80s dates) and found this.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3895/00000000268.jpg
Catastrophic bolt carrier key fail.
Now I don't have a round count but these were my regular shooters for about 25 years. And despite being staked about the same as my Bushmaster, somehow the carrier keys aren't loose.
Notice the knurling on the socket head cap screws. Much better than what most manufacturers use. And at least two of the displacements press solidly into the screws.
Notice the knurling on the socket head cap screws. Much better than what most manufacturers use. And at least two of the displacements press solidly into the screws.
Pretty much like my Bushmaster and most RRA's that I've seen.
Failure2Stop
10-20-09, 18:57
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/AR15-1.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/DSCN0907.jpg
My old Colt from '64 is staked like that.
Now, will your AR spontaneously stop working if your gas carrier key isn't staked well?
No.
But, having said that, I've seen (2) Bushmasters, (1) Armalite, and (1) DPMS get turned into expensive single shot straight pull rifles when the gas carrier key came loose.
It happens.
QuietShootr
10-20-09, 19:55
You might bear in mind that we didn't SHOOT those guns like the guns of today. In the 80s, the only people wearing guns out in the Army had beards and long hair. I was just a young'un in the 70s, but I suspect the same was true then.
An 11B of today shoots the holy shit out of his carbine in training compared to the old days. What we are seeing is a natural exposure of a problem that was always there, but round counts weren't high enough in the old days to make it manifest itself. Also, we had a rifle-length gas system, which made a big difference.
BushmasterFanBoy
10-20-09, 20:02
My BM carrier key gave up the ghost after about 5k rounds, even then, it was a bit of wobble, nothing that caused a malf, but I sent them off for staking anyways.
It's just cheap insurance, really. Will it shit the bed without it? No, probably not until you start getting high round counts, and even then maybe not. It's just another one of those "spin the wheel and take your chances" kind of things. I tend to look down on manufacturers who spin the wheel too much and make me take too many chances. That's why I'm no longer a Bushmaster Fan Boy. ;)
My BM carrier key gave up the ghost after about 5k rounds, even then, it was a bit of wobble, nothing that caused a malf, but I sent them off for staking anyways.
It's just cheap insurance, really. Will it shit the bed without it? No, probably not until you start getting high round counts, and even then maybe not. It's just another one of those "spin the wheel and take your chances" kind of things. I tend to look down on manufacturers who spin the wheel too much and make me take too many chances. That's why I'm no longer a Bushmaster Fan Boy. ;)
And so this doesn't get blown out of proportion like another topic going currently. I agree with the preventative measure of staking, that is obviously the reasonable solution. I'm just having some fun with the guys who act like a BM is a disaster waiting to happen.
OK......Here it comes......................................................................................wait for it..................................................
Who is this "We" as in "Lost in Vietnam" you speak of?
Were you an ARVN??
The U.S. Military did not "lose" in Vietnam. The war was lost in 1975. U.S. Combat troops were long gone. How could we "lose" a war we were no longer fighting?
OK, there it is. Have fun.
dog
So exactly how many Bushmasters have you actually fired and or put your hands on? I dealt with 500 of them on my last assignment and have dealt with several dozens if not more before that.
Guess what? When you actually start using and carrying the weapon that is when the issues arise. And interestingly enough it is always the same stuff. Bolt carrier keys, castle nuts, extractor springs, bolts, etc... Well you get the picture I hope.
BTW- the picture you showed of the old Colt carrier the staking actually looks good. I can see that at least one staking on each screw is making good contact with the knurled screws. I have seen MANY Bushmasters that were not even close to being that good.
And so this doesn't get blown out of proportion like another topic going currently. I agree with the preventative measure of staking, that is obviously the reasonable solution. I'm just having some fun with the guys who act like a BM is a disaster waiting to happen.
I take offense with the wording of your post. I don't know if you were there or not, but you could choose your wording better.
I take offense with the wording of your post. I don't know if you were there or not, but you could choose your wording better.
There it is...
Littlelebowski
10-21-09, 05:56
We won every battle. We kicked the shit out of them every time they confronted us.
There are a couple guys here who act like Bushmasters fail right out of the box. Just having a little bit of fun with that notion.
I thought we've been through this already? Send me links where those guys stated Bushmasters fail right out of the box please.
Littlelebowski
10-21-09, 07:39
I'm thinking that steyrAUG might have unintentionally given this thread a inflammatory title. This thread may only go downhill......
rifleman2000
10-21-09, 07:45
OK......Here it comes......................................................................................wait for it..................................................
Who is this "We" as in "Lost in Vietnam" you speak of?
Were you an ARVN??
The U.S. Military did not "lose" in Vietnam. The war was lost in 1975. U.S. Combat troops were long gone. How could we "lose" a war we were no longer fighting?
OK, there it is. Have fun.
dog
We were no longer fighting because we LOST, specifically we lost resolve. Our intent was not met so we quit. And I am very aware of our overwhelming military success on the ground.
Incidentally, anyone who really wants to know how we lost Vietnam just needs to watch Afghanistan. Barrack Obama can send 100,000 troops, and we will still lose. He has no resolve and the enemy know it. When I was in Afghanistan in 2008, the Afghans (not Taliban) were afraid of the US elections because the Democrats were winning. The enemy sees the same thing. They follow our politics and know that they just have to outlast our politicians' resolve to win. Barrack Obama and the Congress encourage them immensely, in fact it is documented that they step up operations in response to our politics; particularly when liberals gain power.
The only way to win in Afghanistan is to have a President that tells anti-war congress to shut their damn mouths, and then announce to the world that we will not leave Afghanistan until every single son of a bitch that picks up arms against our troops or against the Afghan government is dead. And mean it. That resolve is what will crush them.
We don't have it. We will lose.
I'm just having some fun with the guys who act like a BM is a disaster waiting to happen.
Again, I want to see examples.
Until then this is just a troll thread and it's going to turn into a pissing contest because of a poorly worded title.
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