View Full Version : 5.7
What do you make of the TSX bullet they use for this application?
http://eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA198
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-22-09, 10:39
Saw the title and thought Dick Swan was tradmarking "5.7" too. :rolleyes:
I would agree with Terminal_Effect. Let's assume for a minute that the claims are correct and that the penetration numbers jive. You then have an expanding 5.7mm projectile that, when expanded, is about the same diameter as a .45FMJ.
I don't know how much temporary cavitation would be an asset at 2500fps, although I think that 1900fps is probably too low to be of any use. The only other benefit might be in barrier penetration, but of course that's just a WAG.
-and bottom line: what does the 5.7mm projectile offer over a 9mm or .40 or .45 JHP? I am not asking this question in spite, just saying because it would seem very unlikely that such a small light projectile could cause substantial tissue disruption via the secondary wounding mechanism, i.e. temporary cavitation.
If... big if... they can get decent results out of a round... 20 rounds on tap seems like a good offering from the pistol and 50 on tap from the p90, but again, unless they can show that... mine will sit in the safe until I want to go "play" with it. They are a fun couple of guns, but nothing I'd carry daily.
According to a ballistics tech at Barnes, the 45 grain TSX is designed to open reliably in water at 1900 FPS. I would say it would be lower in flesh (correct me if I am wrong). I own both the FiveseveN and PS90 and would not use it as a defensive load in either one. The expansion is not enough from the pistol and the penetration is too much from the PDW. This round was developed as an off catalogue round for pig hunting and from what I understand, it worked well in that roll. If you want a defensive load, use this one: http://eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA197 . Also, there is a video of the 45 grain TSX from an AR57 here: http://www.youtube.com/user/EliteAmmunition#p/u/13/UrhfM_CJKZc
Water gives the MAXIMUM upset a bullet will likely ever exhibit; actual upset is typically less in tissue or properly fabricated and calibrated 10% gel.
Water gives the MAXIMUM upset a bullet will likely ever exhibit; actual upset is typically less in tissue or properly fabricated and calibrated 10% gel.
Well, after reading what I wrote... lol... yeah, lower rate of expansion, not lower velocity. Never watch hockey and post ROFL
Ehryk,
when you read something like this...
Criminals don’t stand a chance against the ProtecTOR Personal Defense round.
When fired from the FN Five seveN pistol, the ProtecTOR reaches a menacing 2,080 feet per second and able to impart more than 350 foot-pounds of energy on target. With the use of an FN P90 (2,400 fps) or PS90(2,600 fps), bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly-sized 5.56x45mm weapons.
Astounding ballistic performance makes the ProtecTOR one of Elite’s most popular offerings. The cartridge design delivers the optimal level of penetration against a would-be attacker--while significantly reducing the risk of over-penetration when fired indoors. Gelatin tests conducted with a Five seveN handgun generated overwhelming hydrostatic shock effects and stunning elastic wound channels. The results revealed our ProtecTOR rivaled the stopping power of larger rifle calibers, while remaining safer than most pistol rounds in terms of material penetration and potential for ricochets.
When your family’s safety depends on you, depend on the ProtecTOR from Elite Ammunition.
Important Note: Elite ammunition does not recommend or endorse shooting into occupied structures or on areas prohibited by law. Elite Ammunition disclaims any liability as a result of the use of our ammunition
...turn on your BS-filter. I don't mean you're talking BS, just that above is...
BTW, hasn't the Horn. HPBT W/C T2 projectile been clocked at around 2,800 fps?
No offense, OK?
Yep, I agree on turning on the BS filter, hell, thats just life in general. My statement was in comparrison to the TSX round as a defensive one. There are adds everywhere each extoling their greatness since sliced bread yet we all have our BS filters on. Sorry if I assumed others were doing the same.
Surely you have seen the stickie by Dr. Roberts. . .
Penetration through 15% ballistics gellatin exceeds 14", from the pistol, and bullet expansion is greater than 50% of the original diameter. From the PS90, the bullet penetrates a full 21" of 15% ballistics gellatin while expanding more than 75% of the original diameter. Weight retention is more than 99.5%, even after passing through bone and connective tissue.
Just an observation Bro,
For those that might not be familiar with the issue or that might not have clicked on the link above your post, the way you have the beginning of your post worded, it makes it sound like the data that you quoted is from Dr. Roberts, which naturally it isn't.
It seems like the whole 5.7 thing brings to light some observations I've made keeping up with Dr. Roberts' research and related matter...
We now know pretty much about what makes a bullet perform well. Bullets are made from lead and/or copper, and there's only so many ways you can put those materials together. As such, given a bullet design that is meant to perform well, you are more limited by the caliber than anything else. To wit:
A small caliber has inherent difficulties getting the bullet fast enough to do what it needs to do, ie. expand and/or fragment. The only way to do that is by reducing the weight of the projectile. When you reduce the weight of the projectile, it doesn't retain enough momentum to penetrate deeply enough. Look at the 5.56/.223 - the one way to make it perform well is to jump to the very edge of the weight envelope for that caliber, which is over 70gr.
The 5.7 cannot ever attain the same performance as even the .223 (which is deemed sub-optimal by some) due to the limitations of the case. That dictates either very light bullets to get the speed up so that the bullet will expand/fragment (but then doesn't retain enough momentum to penetrate deeply enough), or heavier bullets (too guarantee sufficient penetration) which won't expand/fragment because they're going too slow. This is not an issue particular to the 5.7, but inherent to calibers with small cases. You simply can't redefine the laws of physics.
funny thing about the .223 barnes x bullet is that the upset threshold is only about 1900-1800fps, which means you effectively have a $1 FMJ.
Read the elite ammo marketing on thier page, and do a little research into thier practice of publically releasing info on, and slandering customers who "piss them off" (five seven forums). Further the information they do give about thier loads is variably missing some important information like weight, velocity, bullet construction or manufacture.
IMO this is a company to steer clear of. Thier business model does not appear to be either sustainable nor particularly scrupulous.
funny thing about the .223 barnes x bullet is that the upset threshold is only about 1900-1800fps, which means you effectively have a $1 FMJ.
Read the elite ammo marketing on thier page, and do a little research into thier practice of publically releasing info on, and slandering customers who "piss them off" (five seven forums). Further the information they do give about thier loads is variably missing some important information like weight, velocity, bullet construction or manufacture.
IMO this is a company to steer clear of. Thier business model does not appear to be either sustainable nor particularly scrupulous.
Yeah, from the FsN, you are right. From the PS90 however, it will open reliably but its still not the best for SD/HD since it will most likely over penetrate. In fact, for my SD loadings for the 5.7 and PS90, I use handloads using the 40 grain ballistic tip bullets. So, again, the 45 grain TSX is still not the best for the PS90 as a SD/HD round.
SGT D USMC
10-31-09, 01:40
I have a 5.7 pistol. the 28 grain bullet has a alum. core plus air space in the tip. It tumbles (but does not normally fragment in less than 4" of 10% bgel. the 28 grain bullet is also 1/10 of an inch longer than a m193 55gr fmj. It is no super mistry bullet but does reliably tumble. I like the trajectory- sighted in at 25 yds and then shoting at 150yds it will never climb over 2 inchs above line of sight and will be less than 5" low at 150yds
I have a red dot on it and It will shoot under 2" on demand at 50yds. I play in the eastern Oregon desert alot and I usually carry my 57 and my 1911. What more could you ask for?
Most of the OIS's involving the 5.7 have been "successful" from what I have seen/read, at least as good as the .223 shoots.
That being said, I am unimpressed with Ryan Herle's subterfuge, lies, and conning, in connection with Elite Ammunition. Elite continues to function and provide the best ammunition for the 5.7 platforms (in my opinion), but Ryan Herle gave the whole operation a black eye with his actions I think.
funny thing about the .223 barnes x bullet is that the upset threshold is only about 1900-1800fps, which means you effectively have a $1 FMJ.
Read the elite ammo marketing on thier page, and do a little research into thier practice of publically releasing info on, and slandering customers who "piss them off" (five seven forums). Further the information they do give about thier loads is variably missing some important information like weight, velocity, bullet construction or manufacture.
IMO this is a company to steer clear of. Thier business model does not appear to be either sustainable nor particularly scrupulous.
A lot of that "troll smashing" you mentioned was Ryan Herle. He would actually create accounts, argue with himself, and ban "the troll" to increase his credibility/support his lies. There is a lot that went on with Herle, and as I mentioned, it really looked shitty on what I have otherwise seen to be a decent company. Their advertising is kindof "shocky", though. However, I guess if it sells stuff...
Most of the OIS's involving the 5.7 have been "successful" from what I have seen/read, at least as good as the .223 shoots.
How many have you seen?
How many have you read about?
I ask because the department with the most OISs hasnt seen them as "successful", and isnt ordering them anymore. I advise you to search on Lightfighter.net to find more information from actual users of the round.
I have only read about half a dozen or so, which is a very small sampling I do admit. The last one I read about a cop shot the BG through a door and the round smashed the bones in his gun-arm and the right was over. It was deemed successful. I do agree with you though, a few OIS's is not conclusive.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/3621062102?r=4131082102#4131082102
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/246101211/p/2
Pay very close attention to what "Timmy" has to say...
Since not all potential readers may be able read the thread, I have posted it here.
These are the posting of Timmy who I believe Doc is referring to.
The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake for all the reasons Doc stated. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there.
The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes.
We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more ;)
Oderint, dum metuant
Whom shall I send...And who will go for us
Send Me...
I will go
Is there a RELIABLE, LF-approved source for usage of the 5.7 cartridge
Yes ;) That team no longer deploys with the P90 as a direct result of the OIS's (yes, that’s plural). The P90 is not in-effective, the SS190 performs as advertised (i.e. it penetrates several inches than turns 180 degrees). However, the human animal is an amazing, motivated and resilient creature. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men. This is not speculation.
Diablo,
The P90 frame will not support larger rounds or higher pressure loads. The frame will crack at the take down button to start with.
Oderint, dum metuant
Whom shall I send...And who will go for us
Send Me...
I will go
Using SS190 and a suppressor will lead to cracks in the frame around the barrel support lock (takedown button). This is a result of the increase in back pressure. Larger high velocity rounds would have a similar effect even without a suppresor.
It would take a dramatic redesign of the weapon to allow it to shoot a high velocity rifle round.
Oderint, dum metuant
Whom shall I send...And who will go for us
Send Me...
I will go
And...
Here's a copy and paste from the FiveSeven Forum.
Look at the muzzle energy figures...
20 rounds of mosquitos in the magazine...
I'll stay with my 10mm for now.
Muzzle energy:
|---------------P90-------|----------PS90---------|------FiveseveN----|
SS90 |-----(400 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(330 ft. lbs)---|
SS190 |----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
L191 |-----(390 ft. lbs)---------(460 ft. lbs)------------(315 ft. lbs)---|
SS192 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SB193 |----(120 ft. lbs)---------(160 ft. lbs)------------(80 ft. lbs)----|
T194 |-----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS195 |----(330 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(260 ft. lbs)---|
SS196 |----(290 ft. lbs)---------(340 ft. lbs)------------(230 ft. lbs)---|
SS197 |----(340 ft. lbs)---------(390 ft. lbs)------------(255 ft. lbs)---|
Dave
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/3621062102?r=4131082102#4131082102
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/246101211/p/2
Pay very close attention to what "Timmy" has to say...
I have read what Timmy has said and re-formulated my opinion. Yes, the 5.7 has done GREAT in some OIS's, not so great in others. The win/fail ratio is poor though, across the board, when compared with its contemporaries. I digress.
heh, kinda reminds me of the 9mm back in the 80s. Back then, all that was available was FMJ, jacketed soft point and bad HPs. With the right projectile, I think the 5.7 has potential, but not with the factory loads available. Maybe EA is on the right track with their load developments. One thing is for sure though, the 5.7 is no 5.56. But then, it never pretended to be.
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