View Full Version : #4 buckshot in bare gel (with pics)
SnakeLogan
10-24-09, 11:07
Special thanks to Brassfetcher for this test.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge%20number%20four%20buckshot.pdf
I will stick to 00 buck in my shotgun for HD, but #4 buck doesn't look as puny as some people make it out to be.
The issue I have with #4 buckshot (Federal Tactical 27P) is the pattern with my Vang Comp 18" 870 at 25yds is more than 24" including fliers. This gun holds less than 12" with #1 buckshot (16P) and less than 9" with 00 (9P) at 25 yds.
This may not matter to some but I don't like the large and somewhat unpredictable patterns I get with #4.
The issue I have with #4 buckshot (Federal Tactical 27P) is the pattern with my Vang Comp 18" 870 at 25yds is more than 24" including fliers. This gun holds less than 12" with #1 buckshot (16P) and less than 9" with 00 (9P) at 25 yds.
This may not matter to some but I don't like the large and somewhat unpredictable patterns I get with #4.
Normally the larger the pellet, the tighter the pattern.
No argument from me. With standard barrels and chokes I found the increase in pattern size to be even more pronounced than the sizes I posted as shot size was reduced. Also some loads like the Federal Flightcontrol loads do produce tight patterns but they can be more "donut" shaped than conventional shells.
Glock17JHP
10-26-09, 15:22
I would like to see the same load's performance from a Remington 870 Police with an 18" cylinder-bore barrel...
Wayne Dobbs
10-26-09, 16:08
Ron,
I always found that any of the 12 ga. #4 Buck loads patterned really poorly from an 18" cylinder bored police gun. If you did any patterning work with it you quickly found that you had at most a 15 yard weapon in terms of pattern width before you started losing pellets off a realistic target zone (say <10"). I know that you can theoretically hit/kill past that range, but the liability issues loomed large in a hurry with these loads. Combine that with reduced effectiveness of those little buckshot pellets at extended range and they became a "no go" in a hurry.
Ron,
I always found that any of the 12 ga. #4 Buck load patterned really poorly from an 18" cylinder bored police gun. If you did any patterning work with it you quickly found that you had at most a 15 yard weapon in terms of pattern width before you started losing pellets off a realistic target zone (say <10"). I know that you can theoretically hit/kill past that range, but the liability issues loomed large in a hurry with these loads. Combine that with reduced effectiveness of those little buckshot pellets at extended range and they became a "no go" in a hurry.
#4 buck will not penetrate a metal car door's outer skin at any range where pellets impact individually, either, in my limited experience. OO is semi-reliable, and OOO is decent at it. Anything smaller seems to be full of fail.
Glock17JHP
10-26-09, 22:58
Ron,
I always found that any of the 12 ga. #4 Buck loads patterned really poorly from an 18" cylinder bored police gun. If you did any patterning work with it you quickly found that you had at most a 15 yard weapon in terms of pattern width before you started losing pellets off a realistic target zone (say <10"). I know that you can theoretically hit/kill past that range, but the liability issues loomed large in a hurry with these loads. Combine that with reduced effectiveness of those little buckshot pellets at extended range and they became a "no go" in a hurry.
Wayne,
Please... don't take my comment as though I like #4 Buck!!! I do not... in fact, I don't even like #1 Buck!!!
I am a fan of Winchester's Ranger Buckshot, specifically RA1200, which is a 'Low Recoil' 9-pellet 00 Buck load. For slugs, I like Brenneke's Tactical Home Defense slug load.
I am sorry if I mislead anyone here... I often ask questions as a way to get folks to think...
Wayne Dobbs
10-27-09, 08:57
I didn't think you were endorsing #4 Buck at all. I'm a fan of the "low recoil" or "tactical" 00 loads also and prefer the Federal load in my guns. Given the actual performance envelope of 00 buck I doubt that there's enough difference to matter between the major brands. Recipients of a load of 00 buck amidships inside of 15 yards almost never come to the attention of a trauma center, but instead go straight to the morgue without passing go or collecting $200.
Glock17JHP
10-27-09, 10:48
Good post, Wayne...
Not arguing with anybody.
I picked #4 buck in 12 gauge and #3 buck in 20 gauge years ago for home defense shottie loads. In my home , in my neigborhood , with a armed citizen's job description -- they seemed like good loads for inside the house or condo. I never have and never will own a home big enough that any normal pattern spread will be a significant disadvantage.
IMO, LEO/military ammo choice criteria are sometimes different than armed citizen considerations. The main go-to guns at our house are Glocks and AR middies now , but the shotguns are cruiser ready in the same locker. We keep them mainly for house guests or neighbors in need.
FWIW & YMMV.
Glock17JHP
11-16-09, 14:18
I used to keep an AR-15 for my primary HD weapon, loaded 20-round mag in the rifle (PMC military generic M193), empty chamber...
Then I decided to use my Glock 17 for that role, loaded 17-round mag in the pistol (Winchester Ranger RA9T), empty chamber.
After more thought in the past year or so...
I keep a Winchester Defender 12 gauge, 7 rounds in the mag tube (Winchester Ranger load# RA1200 9-pellet 'Low-Recoil' 00 Buck), empty chamber...
SnakeLogan
11-17-09, 15:31
^Why the move to the shotgun for HD?
Glock17JHP
11-17-09, 20:12
I like to think in terms of 'worst case scenario'... which might be a home invasion robbery... that could involve multiple assailants, and they are likely to be aggressive...
The shotgun seems like the obvious choice to me in that sort of scenario...
Another possible scenario would be an intruder who is armed... so I want to 'outgun' them, if possible...
Again, the shotgun seems like the best choice...
I keep the Glock 19 nearby, mostly for scenarios where I need to be more 'low profile'...
thanks for this post. reminds me that i need to pattern my #4 loads and see how they work.
I agree with 'low recoil' shells. I used, and still have, some high velocity 12g. 00 buck shells once and I didn't want to use my shotgun for anything for a month. That stuff made hamburger out of my shoulder. At this point, I feel like I can handle my carbine much better and fire rounds quicker than I can with my Mossy500 18" cylinder bore.
Glock17JHP
11-18-09, 11:42
uwe1,
A full day's shooting of the load you prefer will tell you a lot. That helped me switch to Low-Recoil 00 Buck...
mattjmcd,
I am more concerned that my buckshot penetrates deeply enough and consistently enough than on its pattern. Although, after penetration, the pattern size and shape and constency is close behind...
I like to think in terms of 'worst case scenario'... which might be a home invasion robbery... that could involve multiple assailants, and they are likely to be aggressive...
The shotgun seems like the obvious choice to me in that sort of scenario...
Another possible scenario would be an intruder who is armed... so I want to 'outgun' them, if possible...
Again, the shotgun seems like the best choice...
I keep the Glock 19 nearby, mostly for scenarios where I need to be more 'low profile'...
Complete agreement.
I have a Remington 870 12, an AR-15 Carbine, and a 9mm S&W M&P, all in the "home defense" roll.
If there's a known threat, in the house, likely 1 or 2 perps, its the shotty.
If there's a community disturbance, outside the house, with an unknown number of perps, its the AR.
It there's a suspicious noise, that might be my neighbor's kid, where discretion overrules force on force, its the pistol.
I don't want to meet my neighbor at the door with an AR in my hands. But if all hell breaks lose and cars are burning in the street outside, I'm not going for a compact 9mm...
Jeff
Glock17JHP
11-18-09, 14:09
Jeff,
I agree with your thoughts as well...
I would think that a carbine would be more useful in a home invasion with a hostage situation. Intruders come in grab your kid...you have...the shotty! Not a good scenario. With a carbine, no questions asked, place red dot on forehead, press trigger, shot enters between the eyes/nose.
Glock17JHP
11-19-09, 10:41
A perp grabs my kid???
There will be at least a palm-sized chunk of the perp's head exposed... that's enough... even with buckshot. The distance would be about 10-15 feet, so the pattern would be 2-3 inches...
I would make sure the perp knew he/she was not leaving my property alive... warrior mindset...
A perp grabs my kid???
There will be at least a palm-sized chunk of the perp's head exposed... that's enough... even with buckshot. The distance would be about 10-15 feet, so the pattern would be 2-3 inches...
I would make sure the perp knew he/she was not leaving my property alive... warrior mindset...
Amen to that, although I'm not comfortable enough with my shotgun skills to risk my children.
Glock17JHP
11-20-09, 10:43
I didn't mention this, but I know how my shotgun patterns, and I would move a bit toward the perp's perifery to give me a bit of a safety margin, too...
Given the choice of the perp holding my kid and shooting or NOT shooting, I would shoot... but I would use my brain, too...
I didn't mention this, but I know how my shotgun patterns, and I would move a bit toward the perp's perifery to give me a bit of a safety margin, too...
Given the choice of the perp holding my kid and shooting or NOT shooting, I would shoot... but I would use my brain, too...
I would absolutely shoot the MFer too, shotgun or no shotgun, but given my relatively lower ability with the shotty vs. my carbine, or even Glock, I'd rather have the latter two. Like you said, you have to know how the shotgun patterns and with any combat/self defense situation, expertise with the weapon is more important than which weapon you possess.
Glock17JHP
11-21-09, 00:20
uwe1, I agree 100%...
Over the past decade I have changed my plan on the weapon(s) and ammunition I would employ in different scenarios. I think it is good to talk about this sort of thing and get multiple viewpoints. It helps to hear a viewpoint that you might not think of on your own... some of my friends have views like that, and I like to hear alternate views.
Then you can glean ideas that present themselves...
Old_Painless
11-21-09, 09:05
Whether you are using a shotgun or a carbine, at very close range, and with the need to make a precise shot, you must be aware of sight off-set.
More here, with a carbine: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm
And with a shotgun, where pattern size is critical: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot42.htm
Glock17JHP
11-21-09, 19:09
Agree, Old_Painless...
That's why I prefer the shotgun with a bead front sight to an AR-15 with a 3" high sighting plane...
Good idea to pattern at various distances, and check POI (Point Of Impact) at various distances for any firearm used in a SD role... it pays to know what your firearm will do as far as POI...
Agree, Old_Painless...
That's why I prefer the shotgun with a bead front sight to an AR-15 with a 3" high sighting plane...
Good idea to pattern at various distances, and check POI (Point Of Impact) at various distances for any firearm used in a SD role... it pays to know what your firearm will do as far as POI...
+1. I have a Winchester 1500 that will sling slugs 2' off POA at 15 yards. Imagine the poor fool using that in a family hostiage situation having never patterned/shot with it!
Glock17JHP
11-23-09, 11:38
My Winchester Defender 1300 consistently puts 00 Buck and slugs 3 inches high at 30 feet, and is right on as far as windage goes. My Ranger load (RA1200) gives me a nice round 4 inch pattern at that distance.
Old_Painless
11-24-09, 07:52
Agree, Old_Painless...
That's why I prefer the shotgun with a bead front sight to an AR-15 with a 3" high sighting plane...
Good idea to pattern at various distances, and check POI (Point Of Impact) at various distances for any firearm used in a SD role... it pays to know what your firearm will do as far as POI...
Yep.
As Clint Smith wisely notes, "The middle of a firefight is not a good place to try out new tactics." ;)
Glock17JHP
11-24-09, 11:22
My Glock 19 hits right at POA... which was not the case with my Glock 17...
However, I prefer the added firepower of my Winchester 8-shot Defender...
So, even though I know it shoot 3 inches high at 30 feet, I prefer it, unless there is a tactical reason to choose the Glock, like being more 'low profile'...
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