View Full Version : M4 Carbine Recoil too strong
If you can't already tell by my name, I am an XCR owner. That being said, I am prior military and have plenty of experience using the M4. I recently decided to build an M4 Carbine from the ground up. The gun performs flawlessly. Never had any kind of malfunction at all (yet!). I will eventually modify it into a MK18 like I had in the service.
Everything is of decent quality. I have the following:
BM upper and lower receiver
DTI 16" M4 1/9 barrel (will be buying a 1/7 10.3 soon)
DD Omega 7" Rail.
CTR stock w/mil spec tube.
H3 Buffer
BM semi-auto BCG
Std. A2 FH/Comp.
However, the buffer spring I am using is a carbine buffer spring that I got out of a free CAA collapsible stock kit.
I have put close to 500 rounds through it over the last few weeks and the recoil is just horrible. I cannot double tap and hit a man sized target at 50 yards. I can barely double tap and hit the same target at 25 yards. :eek:
Now I am an expert shot with the M4 and the MK18. I never ever had a problem qualifying expert thought my entire military career so don't think the issue is with me.
Something is wrong and I cannot figure it out. Please help me out. I have been racking my brain to figure out what I need to do to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce felt recoil.
Any ideas? :confused:
Captains1911
10-24-09, 18:23
Could it be the combo of the unnecessarily heavy (H3) buffer with a cheap weak buffer spring?
ETA: I'd try a new quality spring and an H buffer.
Sparky5019
10-24-09, 18:24
You could try to go to a XP buffer spring (I get the red XP spring from www.tacticalsprings.com).
I would also read the sticky on reciprocating mass!
Sparky
RogerinTPA
10-24-09, 18:34
I'd replace the following:
Buffer/Action spring (yours may not be to spec), Ditch the semi BCG for a FA BCG, then down grade the H3 buffer (which IMHO, is too heavy for a carbine length) to an H or H2. All these quality parts can be had at BCM (Bravo Company). That should tame your recoil issues, unless something else is going wrong, like too much gas in the system (enlarged gas port/not in spec, or loose gas key that's improperly staked,...since it is a BM Semi BCG).
If you have a carbine buffer laying around you could swap a tungsten weight out of your H3 for a steel one and just upgrade the spring.
I would put an H buffer and auto carrier in there and call it a day. Even with what you have recoil shouldn't be that bad.
The action spring and buffer are he most likely suspects. In your parts list you indicate that you are using an H3 buffer. Are we OK to assume that it is a Colt buffer? The H3 is to heavy and the action spring you are using may not be a "spec" spring. Replacing them with the proper parts should be your first step. I would steer clear of an extra power spring. Extra power springs are a solution looking for a problem.
I would put an H buffer and auto carrier in there and call it a day. Even with what you have recoil shouldn't be that bad.
I would add a red spring from Tactical Springs (http://www.sprinco.com/tactical.html) to this as well. I typically keep at least one spare blue and one spare red around just in case the one or the other gives me problems and as spares for the various guns.
I replaced the carbine buffer with an H3 buffer to help reduce the felt recoil. The H3 helped a little bit. I will try the cheaper solution first which is the spring. I still have all the original parts, so if the XP spring and the heavier buffer do not help, then I will examine two other possible approaches.
I haven't checked yet, but the gas port on the DTI barrel may be a bit too large allowing way more gas into the action. If that is the case, I will order a JP adjustable gas block. However, what is the size of an in "spec" gas port?
The second approach will be to replace the SA carrier with a FA carrier.
Now, I just need to figure out which one to try first. :confused:
Captains1911
10-25-09, 11:08
I replaced the carbine buffer with an H3 buffer to help reduce the felt recoil. The H3 helped a little bit. I will try the cheaper solution first which is the spring. I still have all the original parts, so if the XP spring and the heavier buffer do not help, then I will examine two other possible approaches.
I haven't checked yet, but the gas port on the DTI barrel may be a bit too large allowing way more gas into the action. If that is the case, I will order a JP adjustable gas block. However, what is the size of an in "spec" gas port?
The second approach will be to replace the SA carrier with a FA carrier.
Now, I just need to figure out which one to try first. :confused:
I really don't think that switching the carrier alone will do much if anything noticeable.
So I should consider buying the JP enterprises adjustable gas block? Obviously controlling the amount of gas entering the action will control the recoil. So that may be the best approach if the XP spring doesn't work.
I just ordered the red XP spring from tacticalsprings.com (with the bolt extractor spring upgrade combo) this morning.
I will update in a week or so, once I get to the range and test out the XP spring. I really hope this will fix the issue. I do not want to spend any more money on it than I have to.
In the immortal words of the Zen Master, "we'll see!"
Belmont31R
10-25-09, 11:39
So I should consider buying the JP enterprises adjustable gas block? Obviously controlling the amount of gas entering the action will control the recoil. So that may be the best approach if the XP spring doesn't work.
I just ordered the red XP spring from tacticalsprings.com (with the bolt extractor spring upgrade combo) this morning.
I will update in a week or so, once I get to the range and test out the XP spring. I really hope this will fix the issue. I do not want to spend any more money on it than I have to.
In the immortal words of the Zen Master, "we'll see!"
Recoil is the opposite action of the bullet going forward. By the time the bolt even unlocks the bullet is well out of the barrel.
A muzzle brake or weight is a far better recoil reducer than springs and buffers.
Thomas M-4
10-25-09, 11:48
If you are going to change barrels I wouldn't change a thing until you get a new barrel make sure it is a a milspec barrel with the correct gas port diameter.
If you decide not to change the barrel and it is over gassed [ gas port to large ].
Me personally I don't think putting in a XP spring is going to fix your problem.
My suggestion will be controversial to some but it will address the over gas issue better than any other way in my opinion. Its the LMT enhanced carrier it is designed for over gassed carbines with 14.5'' and 16'' barrels it bleeds of excess gas and has a different cam pin path to allow delayed unlocking of the bolt. I run one in my LMT btw LMT runs the correct gas port dia small. I have just over 2000 rounds through my carbine and it has worked has advertised for me.
In all seriousness though. Recoil shouldn't be a a real issue here. There has got to be something that we aren't seeing. I would replace the barrel possibly....not sure.
By the way what is a DTI barrel?
Thomas M-4
10-25-09, 13:49
In all seriousness though. Recoil shouldn't be a a real issue here. There has got to be something that we aren't seeing. I would replace the barrel possibly....not sure.
By the way what is a DTI barrel?
I am guessing DEL-TON for dti barrel
The barrel would most likely have an oversized gas port and questionable chamber.
That's where I was going.
I am guessing DEL-TON for dti barrel
The barrel would most likely have an oversized gas port and questionable chamber.
If you are going to buy a new barrel soon anyway then why not start there. No sense buying a lot of parts you may not need.
Is Del-ton (DTI) crap? Why would their gas ports be oversized, particularly on carbine length gas systems? I am thinking the gas port is too large. I am planning on buying a 10.3 by DD but that will not be for a while. As the barrel is about $300+ and then I have to do the NFA crap. So that is a $500+ barrel change.
In the mean time, I am thinking I need to buy the adjustable gas block by JP Enterprises. That is only about $80.
I had a DTI lightweight 16" barrel, and it functioned well for the 400 or so rounds I had. I liked the profile, which was maybe .700 to the GB, then .600 or so to the muzzle.
However don't let that detract you from moving forward on getting a quality barrel, the length you want.
I'd recommend getting the new enhanced Magpul buttpad for your CTR. It is great!
+1 for "I'll bet you don't notice much difference between the SA and FA carriers."
+1 for "you need a brake," at least a FSC556.
Knock yourself out. The suggestions have been made and I would try them first and see what happens.
Is Del-ton (DTI) crap? Why would their gas ports be oversized, particularly on carbine length gas systems? I am thinking the gas port is too large. I am planning on buying a 10.3 by DD but that will not be for a while. As the barrel is about $300+ and then I have to do the NFA crap. So that is a $500+ barrel change.
In the mean time, I am thinking I need to buy the adjustable gas block by JP Enterprises. That is only about $80.
I doubt you'll find very many of the knowledgeable folks here who consider the name Del-Ton to be synonymous with the term quality. In any case, give the things that have been suggested a try as you'll likely find the solution.
UPDATE -
I just received my SpringCo XP Red carbine buffer spring. The first thing I noticed is it was longer than the carbine spring in my M4 (the CAA spring). Much stiffer too (obviously). It was about 1.5 to 2 inches shorter than the XP spring.
It is obvious that there was an issue with my spring. So we will see how it turns out with the H3 and the XP spring.
Blankwaffe
10-29-09, 21:12
UPDATE -
I just received my SpringCo XP Red carbine buffer spring. The first thing I noticed is it was longer than the carbine spring in my M4 (the CAA spring). Much stiffer too (obviously). It was about 1.5 to 2 inches shorter than the XP spring.
It is obvious that there was an issue with my spring. So we will see how it turns out with the H3 and the XP spring.
Yeap,the CAA buffer springs supplied in their crappy butt stock/RE kits are simply,flat out junk.Saw two recently at the range some local fudds had on new builds that were well below spec in under 500 rounds behind DPMS 6.8 SPC's.One was so weak/huge amount of spring set that it would not feed or lock the BCG in battery.
Then another that was too long(straight out of the kit bag) and coil stacked causing fail to lock open on a empty mag.
So yeah I'd say the CAA buffer spring is highly suspect.
CAA=Cheap Ars Accessories
Avoid at all costs....
Seems that a new local shop is a stocking dealer for that brand and tout the high quality features at cheap price thing.I had the "parts aint parts" discussion and was called a "tier one internet snob" by the owner.
We have discussed CAA here before. I was going to comment about that previously, but sometimes it is better for people to learn the hard way. I am interested to hear how it shoots now.
TheGhostRider
10-30-09, 21:17
A quick little story...
I was at the local shooting hole enjoying my day and watching a young lad beside me shooting his new AR. I noticed that he would take a step back every time he fired it and it looked like it was kicking the crap out of him.
My curiosity peaked!
I made some polite conversation... the usual hey that's a nice looking gun conversation.
He asked if I would like to shoot it...
Sure I say...
Holy Lord almighty... I thought I'd lost a limb. I set him up with my 6921 and said here try this.
He couldn't believe how "soft" my Carbine funtioned.
After talking to him a bit about the fact that his rifle was running incorrectly he decided that he'd like me to check it over.
Ammo- ok
Barrel- ok
upper- ok
Bolt assembly- ok
Hmmmmm.... what's this in the extension behind the carbine buffer...
Oh' hell... its a RIFLE SPRING, or at least what used to be a rifle spring.
Damn buffer was bottoming out on that rifle spring and sending a hell of a shockwave to the shoulder.
I reached into the range box and pulled out a new carbine spring and installed it.
Problem solved. The lad couldn't believe the difference in his rifle. I made a friend that day.
I went to the range today. Fired about 100 rounds, and the rifle is accurate as hell. At 50 yards with a compM3 4MOA sight I had sub MOA groups.
However, I still have a pretty strong recoil. My only culprit left I can think of as being the problem is the gas port. So I am looking at buying a JP Enterprises Adjustable A2 Gas Block.
http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1060.jpg
I have checked Brownell's, MidwayUSA, and a few other places. I even googled it for places that may have it in stock.
Does anyone know where I can get one? I even looked on GB with no luck. Or does anyone know of another company that makes adjustable gas blocks?
Thanks for any help.
In all seriousness. If the recoil is too much for you, then the AR platform is not for you. Stick with your XCR.
I went to the range today. Fired about 100 rounds, and the rifle is accurate as hell. At 50 yards with a compM3 4MOA sight I had sub MOA groups.
However, I still have a pretty strong recoil. My only culprit left I can think of as being the problem is the gas port. So I am looking at buying a JP Enterprises Adjustable A2 Gas Block.
http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1060.jpg
I have checked Brownell's, MidwayUSA, and a few other places. I even googled it for places that may have it in stock.
Does anyone know where I can get one? I even looked on GB with no luck. Or does anyone know of another company that makes adjustable gas blocks?
Thanks for any help.
In all seriousness. If the recoil is too much for you, then the AR platform is not for you. Stick with your XCR.
I'm with Iraqgunz here. How is it possible that in ANY configuration of BCG, buffer spring, buffer weight, that the recoil impulse from a .223 is so strong that you cannot make effect doubles at 25yards? Especially someone that has had trigger time and formal training behind the trigger of an M4 and a MK18?
I can double tap targets with a .308 para FAL that only weighs 8lbs at that range... :confused: something is not right here.
Cameron
First of all, that is straight out rude and uncalled for. Second, it is not that the AR recoil is "too" strong for me. I can handle it just fine. It is just that the recoil for my M4 is just stronger than where it should be, implying that something in not correct with it. I am former military (GM1/SWCC/SW) and I had had extensive time and many thousands of rounds with the M4 and the MK18. The recoil on my M4 is much stronger than any of those I used
Instead of being rude and unhelpful, why don't you provide some kind of idea as to what could be causing the excessive recoil? For example, perhaps you could help me out and suggest a possible idea instead of berating someone.
If I somehow mistook your reply as an insult while it was not meant to be, then please disregard part of my reply. :cool:
I didn't call you gay dude, relax. You have Iraqgunz and I confused here. You said:
I cannot double tap and hit a man sized target at 50 yards. I can barely double tap and hit the same target at 25 yards. :eek:
Any ideas? :confused:
I don't care what 5.56 rifle you are firing that is a problem that you will not fix with an adjustable gas port. Sure ARs recoil, and guys are more and more using brakes, comps and changing the configuration of the reciprocating mass. However, the only thing I can conclude is that you are exaggerating the effect of the recoil.
My wife can double tap an FAL and hit a man sized target at 25 yards and she wasn't former military (GM1/SWCC/SW)...
Maybe your gas port it too large, what else can it be? I have a 16" midlength, that has a milder recoil impulse than my MK18 clone but there is no way that my LMT 10.5" with any spring, BCG, or what not could prohibit an experienced shooter from making good doubles on a man sized target at 25yards.
Cameron
This is a .308 FAL Para with a 16" barrel and an A2 birdcage (no comp or brake) and this thing after about 2,000 rounds actually bent the position pin in a CTR stock, so it has quite a bit more recoil that a 5.56.
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/th_FALDOUBLETAPS.jpg (http://s886.photobucket.com/albums/ac61/gstuffnow/?action=view¤t=FALDOUBLETAPS.flv)
How can you be missing a man sized target at 25yards when these doubles were consistently about 2" apart at 25 yards??? :confused:
cameron
Heavy Metal
11-08-09, 18:28
I went to the range today. Fired about 100 rounds, and the rifle is accurate as hell. At 50 yards with a compM3 4MOA sight I had sub MOA groups.
However, I still have a pretty strong recoil. My only culprit left I can think of as being the problem is the gas port. So I am looking at buying a JP Enterprises Adjustable A2 Gas Block.
http://www.jprifles.com/cart_pix/ph/1060.jpg
I have checked Brownell's, MidwayUSA, and a few other places. I even googled it for places that may have it in stock.
Does anyone know where I can get one? I even looked on GB with no luck. Or does anyone know of another company that makes adjustable gas blocks?
Thanks for any help.
You would be MUCH better off trying an MGI Rate Reducing Buffer. It fixed one of mine that was over-gassed. All my Carbines have an MGI buffer.
Have you made any of the changes that were already recommended? If not, please get back to us, once you have.
I would get a FA BCG, the spring that was recommended and an H2 buffer. You may also want to consider just getting another barrel now rather than later.
I could be perceiving the recoil is stronger than it should be. I could probably hit a man sized target during a DT at 25, I am not so sure at 50. I just don't feel like this M4 is correct. I unfortunately do not know anyone who owns an M4. Most of the guys in my area that have AR platforms are running rifle length (varmint) rifles. I agree that what I am explaining seems like something is amiss and things just don't add up.
After during some more research on the forum, I found out what the gas port should be. You're really going to be confused. I mic'd it three times. The gas port on my bbl is .061."
I just wish I knew someone with an M4 setup so I could compare. Unfortunately, I live in a very uptight area. You should see the looks I get from my neighbors when they see me loading up to go to the range.
To answer Iraqgunz' question, I have done the following:
XP buffer spring (red)
H3 buffer
I even made my own H2 to test it out before I used the H3.
Thanks for all the help guys.
If you are in my area, Colorado, you are more than welcome to come to the range with me. I have 16" carbine and mid length, an LMT 10.5" and various SA or FA BCG, carbine through H2 buffers etc.
We can compare it to mine, then adjust the configuration to see what works best.
PM if you are handy to Denver, CO.
Cameron
olds442tyguy
11-08-09, 20:09
Is it the muzzle rise, or the actual rearward recoil? I have more trouble with muzzle rise and target retention than I do with recoil, which is why I ask. I think you need a good compensating brake.
Littlelebowski
11-08-09, 20:12
Why not just slap on a muzzle brake?
Belmont31R
11-08-09, 20:24
I could be perceiving the recoil is stronger than it should be. I could probably hit a man sized target during a DT at 25, I am not so sure at 50. I just don't feel like this M4 is correct. I unfortunately do not know anyone who owns an M4. Most of the guys in my area that have AR platforms are running rifle length (varmint) rifles. I agree that what I am explaining seems like something is amiss and things just don't add up.
After during some more research on the forum, I found out what the gas port should be. You're really going to be confused. I mic'd it three times. The gas port on my bbl is .061."
I just wish I knew someone with an M4 setup so I could compare. Unfortunately, I live in a very uptight area. You should see the looks I get from my neighbors when they see me loading up to go to the range.
To answer Iraqgunz' question, I have done the following:
XP buffer spring (red)
H3 buffer
I even made my own H2 to test it out before I used the H3.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Just my opinion here....but an H3 seems excessive for a carbine. Usually those are for SBR's and to slow down the cyclic rate for FA's. Recoil is the opposite force of the bullet going forward. The bullet is out of the barrel before the bolt even unlocks. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Recoil comes from the bullet going forward, and the gun going backwards.
Try some 223 ammo. I can tell a very distinct difference between 223 55GR FMJ and 556 55GR FMJ. A lot more blast and recoil.
Weight has a lot to do with recoil too. If you are comparing recoil to a varmint gun that is the wrong answer. Just the difference between a gov profile barrel and medium contour is going to be quite a contrast even with the same barrel length.
You should not need an adjustable gas block to run a simple carbine. If you really do have a gas issue that is a patch not an answer.
And Im not bashing your gear but I suggest next time you take a step up in quality from BM and Del-Ton. Bravo Co (BCM) just lowered their prices on uppers to just over $400. You will not get a better setup for the money, and if you do the math Im sure you will come out about even than buying a complete gun or piecing on together. If you have the funds Id suggest you try a factory upper from BCM and see how it does for you. If a new factory upper doesnt work you could keep one or the other, and at least recoup most of your money.
Why not just slap on a muzzle brake?
I am considering it.
If you are in my area, Colorado, you are more than welcome to come to the range with me. I have 16" carbine and mid length, an LMT 10.5" and various SA or FA BCG, carbine through H2 buffers etc.
We can compare it to mine, then adjust the configuration to see what works best.
PM if you are handy to Denver, CO.
Cameron
Thanks, however, I am in Southeast Virginia. I like CO though. Beautiful country.
thopkins22
11-08-09, 23:45
Thanks, however, I am in Southeast Virginia. I like CO though. Beautiful country.
There are a lot of active members in VA who I'm sure would be happy to tell you whether or not it's you or the gun that is broken.
Jeff Hawkins
11-09-09, 23:28
I recently installed an FSC556 compensator from PWS and the ST-T2 buffer from Spike's Tactical on my M&P 15X. The weapon recoil seems smoother, especially when the bolt locks back. My follow up rounds are staying closer together as well. I'm new to the AR platform, but I feel pretty confident that these were both solid upgrades to this weapon. Excellent customer service also from both businesses, by the way! :)
Regards,
Jeff
Just a silly question, but what is your barrel chambered for? Is it possible you're shooting 5.56N spec ammo in a .223 chamber? That would definitely result in your carbine acting overgassed.
And yes, the springs included in many aftermarket buttstocks are junk. I learned this the hard way with one of my 6.8s. Spring length was down to minimum spec after ~500rds and was causing functional issues. Replaced it with a SSS spring and problems went away.
FA carriers are the way to go in a carbine - even use 'em in mid-length gas systems. That extra mass reduces the velocity of the bolt carrier during the operating cycle, resulting in a smoother recoil impulse.
OP- Does the extractor rip through the case rim, or any FTE's, or any pull marks on the spent cases?
If so, possibly overgassed and timing thrown off resulting in buffer slamming into end of tube.
MarshallDodge
11-10-09, 12:41
This all sounds pretty odd to me.
In your first post you stated "Std. A2 FH/Comp."
So is this a standard flash hider that looks like this?
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gU6s75B3VVbpgM:http://www.ameetecarms.com/store/images/A2%20FH.JPG
I shot a friends Bushmaster "M4" that had an aftermarket compensator on it. That was the loudest, most uncomfortable AR I have ever shot. I had ear protection but they were ringing when I was done with ten rounds.
Have you considered getting rid of the DTI upper and purchase something better made? Rather than spend $100 here and there to try and diagnose the problem, you could have a quality upper like BCM that you know won't give you any problems.
Just a silly question, but what is your barrel chambered for? Is it possible you're shooting 5.56N spec ammo in a .223 chamber? That would definitely result in your carbine acting overgassed.
And yes, the springs included in many aftermarket buttstocks are junk. I learned this the hard way with one of my 6.8s. Spring length was down to minimum spec after ~500rds and was causing functional issues. Replaced it with a SSS spring and problems went away.
FA carriers are the way to go in a carbine - even use 'em in mid-length gas systems. That extra mass reduces the velocity of the bolt carrier during the operating cycle, resulting in a smoother recoil impulse.
The bbl is chambered and stamped 5.56 NATO.
OP- Does the extractor rip through the case rim, or any FTE's, or any pull marks on the spent cases?
If so, possibly overgassed and timing thrown off resulting in buffer slamming into end of tube.
I have never had any FTFs, FTE, misfires, or anything but perfect functioning. I may just put her in the safe for a few months and then buy a Noveske complete N4 upper. Or something equal to it.
As far pull marks, I am not sure as I have not saved any brass. I find it easier and just as cost effective to buy it.
This all sounds pretty odd to me.
In your first post you stated "Std. A2 FH/Comp."
So is this a standard flash hider that looks like this?
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:gU6s75B3VVbpgM:http://www.ameetecarms.com/store/images/A2%20FH.JPG
I shot a friends Bushmaster "M4" that had an aftermarket compensator on it. That was the loudest, most uncomfortable AR I have ever shot. I had ear protection but they were ringing when I was done with ten rounds.
Yes that is the same FH I had on it when I posted. I have since switched it out with an extra standard Phantom FH. Not the phantom 5c2. I have not fired the weapon since installing the new FH. I do not anticipate much difference.
XCRFan,
Markings mean nothing unless they come from a known and trusted manufacturer. Other companies have marked theirs 5.56 as well only to be proven they are not.
I think that the saying "You can lead a horse to water, but....." applies here.
The bbl is chambered and stamped 5.56 NATO.
XCRFan,
Markings mean nothing unless they come from a known and trusted manufacturer. Other companies have marked theirs 5.56 as well only to be proven they are not.
I think that the saying "You can lead a horse to water, but....." applies here.
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific about the barrel. The barrels that DTI uses are manufactured by Wilson Combat. As far as I know, WC is a decent manufacturer. At least to the point that the if it is stamped 5.56, then it more than likely is 5.56.
If you can't already tell by my name, I am an XCR owner. That being said, I am prior military and have plenty of experience using the M4. I recently decided to build an M4 Carbine from the ground up. The gun performs flawlessly. Never had any kind of malfunction at all (yet!). I will eventually modify it into a MK18 like I had in the service.
Everything is of decent quality. I have the following:
BM upper and lower receiver
DTI 16" M4 1/9 barrel (will be buying a 1/7 10.3 soon)
DD Omega 7" Rail.
CTR stock w/mil spec tube.
H3 Buffer
BM semi-auto BCG
Std. A2 FH/Comp.
However, the buffer spring I am using is a carbine buffer spring that I got out of a free CAA collapsible stock kit.
I have put close to 500 rounds through it over the last few weeks and the recoil is just horrible. I cannot double tap and hit a man sized target at 50 yards. I can barely double tap and hit the same target at 25 yards. :eek:
Now I am an expert shot with the M4 and the MK18. I never ever had a problem qualifying expert thought my entire military career so don't think the issue is with me.
Something is wrong and I cannot figure it out. Please help me out. I have been racking my brain to figure out what I need to do to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce felt recoil.
Any ideas? :confused:
The barrel you bought is most likely WAAAAAAY over gased. This is the main problem. Mil-Spec gas port is .063 on a carbine.
So how do you fix it? You can fill the GP and re-drill or sell the barrel.
If neither of those interest you, get a Tactical Spring Co CS buffer spring and an H3 buffer.
C4
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific about the barrel. The barrels that DTI uses are manufactured by Wilson Combat. As far as I know, WC is a decent manufacturer. At least to the point that the if it is stamped 5.56, then it more than likely is 5.56.
No they are no. WC does NOT make any barrels. Your barrel was made by WILSON.
Wilson is a barrel manufacturer (and is all they do).
C4
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific about the barrel. The barrels that DTI uses are manufactured by Wilson Combat. As far as I know, WC is a decent manufacturer. At least to the point that the if it is stamped 5.56, then it more than likely is 5.56.
Talk about a whole 'lotta flawed assumptions.
"Wilson" barrels are not "Wilson Combat". ;)
www.wilsonarms.com/
After during some more research on the forum, I found out what the gas port should be. You're really going to be confused. I mic'd it three times. The gas port on my bbl is .061."
So you actually removed the front sight base or gas block and measured the hole in the barrel?
QuietShootr
11-12-09, 19:28
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific about the barrel. The barrels that DTI uses are manufactured by Wilson Combat. As far as I know, WC is a decent manufacturer. At least to the point that the if it is stamped 5.56, then it more than likely is 5.56.
No, they aren't. That's an old cheeseball Model 1 Sales/Sherluk/Nesard marketing trick. "Wilson Barrels" are not made by Wilson Combat.
So you actually removed the front sight base or gas block and measured the hole in the barrel?
Yes. I measured it with a digital micrometer. I measured it three times and it was .061 inches all three times. So it appears to me to be under spec'd. I zeroed out the mic before measuring. I am thinking about a buying a break. But I will shoot it with the phantom FH first.
I am in Virginia and a member of Lafayette Gun Club in Yorktown, VA, if anyone in the area wants to compare rifles. PM me or something. I will provide the ammo.
Yes. I measured it with a digital micrometer. I measured it three times and it was .061 inches all three times. So it appears to me to be under spec'd. I zeroed out the mic before measuring. I am thinking about a buying a break. But I will shoot it with the phantom FH first.
I am in Virginia and a member of Lafayette Gun Club in Yorktown, VA, if anyone in the area wants to compare rifles. PM me or something. I will provide the ammo.
Incorrect on the GP size as you cannot get an accurate reading that way.
The poor man's way to do it is use drill bits to measure the hole.
At best, you GP is .063 (mil-spec for a carbine).
Since you are saying that the gun has a lot of recoil, you most likely have a GP size of .068 or bigger.
Half the mods/Staff live in VA Beach area (FYI). I was a member of LGC for many years.
C4
spamsammich
11-12-09, 20:50
It's best to measure port size with a set of gage pins, but as Grant said, you can get by with drill bit shafts if you have an index that has lots of different sizes.
It's best to measure port size with a set of gage pins, but as Grant said, you can get by with drill bit shafts if you have an index that has lots of different sizes.
Yep, gage pins are best.
C4
It's best to measure port size with a set of gage pins,
Would you buy the whole set (http://www.meyergage.com/products/class_zz_library_series.htm) for $1k+/- or individually (http://www.meyergage.com/products/individual_class_z_pins.htm) at $3/ea+/-?
I'm thinking maybe this one (http://www.meyergage.com/products/english_gage_sets.htm)?
M05P English Class Z .0115 to .0605 Plus Set 50 pieces 1 lb $72.14
Would you buy the whole set (http://www.meyergage.com/products/class_zz_library_series.htm) for $1k+/- or individually (http://www.meyergage.com/products/individual_class_z_pins.htm) at $3/ea+/-?
I'm thinking maybe this one (http://www.meyergage.com/products/english_gage_sets.htm)?
M05P English Class Z .0115 to .0605 Plus Set 50 pieces 1 lb $72.14
too small to measure gas ports.. the larges pin is a couple hun smaller than the smallest gas ports.
spamsammich
11-13-09, 13:22
Would you buy the whole set (http://www.meyergage.com/products/class_zz_library_series.htm) for $1k+/- or individually (http://www.meyergage.com/products/individual_class_z_pins.htm) at $3/ea+/-?
I'm thinking maybe this one (http://www.meyergage.com/products/english_gage_sets.htm)?
M05P English Class Z .0115 to .0605 Plus Set 50 pieces 1 lb $72.14
A high quality set is just too much $$ for me right now. If I had to, I'd buy a small range using my best guess around the published port sizes. I'm pretty lucky that I have access to a well stocked machine shop at work.
Really don't see how the recoil on a M4 could be too strong even with a oversized port
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEQDWQS_1gY
too small to measure gas ports.. the larges pin is a couple hun smaller than the smallest gas ports.
yeah, realized that after I posted it. :eek:
With what you have done already I would strongly suggest a adjustable gas block!! If your rifle is over gassed, its over gassed and the only sure way to reduce that is reduce the gas going to your carrier!!
I suggest using a numbered drill set to gauge the gas port size. After all the hole was drilled in a machine shop. I seriously doubt they had a custom diameter drill bit made for the gas hole.
At least that way you end up spending your money on something you can use for other things.
Heavy Metal
11-22-09, 23:35
Dude,
The MGI Rate Reducing Buffer will fix your problem. The harder it is pushed, the harder it pushes back when the plunger bottoms out.
It ain't cheap but it is a drop in part vs the adj gas block and it is a more robust solution.
It and a Wolf +10 spring fixed a beater AR that was way overgassed.
The action spring and buffer are he most likely suspects. In your parts list you indicate that you are using an H3 buffer. Are we OK to assume that it is a Colt buffer? The H3 is to heavy and the action spring you are using may not be a "spec" spring. Replacing them with the proper parts should be your first step. I would steer clear of an extra power spring. Extra power springs are a solution looking for a problem.
In my experience the extra power spring adds to felt recoil, I tried one briefly to try and slow down a high mileage CMMG barrel I owned and my brass continued to eject 1-2 oclock but with what felt like twice the recoil of the standard spring and h buffer I started out with. New barrel fixed the issue and Im back to a standard colt carbine spring and H buffer.
Robb Jensen
11-23-09, 07:14
In my experience the extra power spring adds to felt recoil, I tried one briefly to try and slow down a high mileage CMMG barrel I owned and my brass continued to eject 1-2 oclock but with what felt like twice the recoil of the standard spring and h buffer I started out with. New barrel fixed the issue and Im back to a standard colt carbine spring and H buffer.
I've experience this too which is why I like standard rate chrome silicon buffer springs from Brownells. The extra power stuff allows the bolt to be out of battery for a longer time which in turn causes more muzzle lift. Once on the forward stroke the bolt does return faster but by then the muzzle has already lifted.
Put 29 rounds through a new BCM upper (Session ender test) and I could swear the recoil felt stronger than my beater-Bushy 1/7. Both are 14.5 M4 profile. BM has a Colt BCG, and BCM has a BCM.
Used on the same lower with a standard spring and H2. No short stroking and both lock back perfectly.
The BCM just seems to have a stronger kick with an extra boing feel after each shot.
Any ideas?
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