View Full Version : Tired from a tough hike? Rescuers fear Yuppie 911
Wow. I hate people like that, and I would have been livid if I was on that search crew!
Alpha Sierra
10-25-09, 20:05
There is a simple answer to this problem: make the rescued pay ALL rescue costs. And I do mean all.
For all its socialism, Europe does at least one thing right. If you get in trouble in the Alps, be it in Germany, Austria, Italy, France, or Switzerland, and rescue is summoned for you; you WILL pay for ALL costs including aircraft operation. It does not matter if the rescue resources are volunteers, private alpine clubs, or government personnel.
If you were not smart enough to buy rescue insurance from the local or national alpine club, you will pay out of pocket 100%.
My best friend Bruce, a flight paramedic, was killed a year ago performing a single skid rescue of two of the yuppie ass-clown types this article talks about. found themselves atop a mesa, no GPS, no water, no compass, no map, dehydrated and calling for help after they couldn't find their way down. F*ck them! Next time, let them die.
UrbanRunner
10-25-09, 21:24
A lot of alarm calls are false or stupid. Think of all the false burglar/robbery alarms, 911 hangups, idiotic calls reported by cell phones of reckless drivers (AKA: other driver pissed me off so I'll call 911). Emergency responders need to have the option of disregarding some of these or charging a fee for the full cost of the response. Maybe even licensing and training required to carry one of these things.
1859sharps
10-25-09, 21:29
A lot of alarm calls are false or stupid. Think of all the false burglar/robbery alarms, 911 hangups, idiotic calls reported by cell phones of reckless drivers (AKA: other driver pissed me off so I'll call 911). Emergency responders need to have the option of disregarding some of these or charging a fee for the full cost of the response. Maybe even licensing and training required to carry one of these things.
The option to disregard a call for help must NEVER happen. Until your on the scene there is no way to really know what the real deal is.
However, defining unreasonable calls for help and billing the caller is more then reasonable. If the emergency is real, that is what your taxes are for if we provide a rescue service. But if you are just lonely, scared, etc.... Expect a bill.
UrbanRunner
10-25-09, 21:51
The option to disregard a call for help must NEVER happen.
Ok, your police department responds three times in one night for a burglary alarm (movement sensor) at a re-sale clothing store. Management can not be contacted. Each time officers arrive and find the building secure but note a cat walking around inside.
You decide: Do you continue to send officers to each of the subsequent twenty alarm calls that are reported that night at the used clothing store?
For all its socialism, Europe does at least one thing right. If you get in trouble in the Alps, be it in Germany, Austria, Italy, France, or Switzerland, and rescue is summoned for you; you WILL pay for ALL costs including aircraft operation. It does not matter if the rescue resources are volunteers, private alpine clubs, or government personnel.
.
NO. Not from socialist europe, that could never happen. Those commies are insane over there! ;) (don't take offense I just have to comment every time someone uses the term socialism when it isn't necessary to the argument or discussion on hand).
Yes I agree with you, the best way to deal with this in the United States would be to make the party pay for the costs of the rescue (if that rescue is un-necessary). But I really have to tell you that I take a lot of solace in knowing that Search and Rescue is there and does what it does. I am an experienced outdoors person, probably more then most people on this site that aren't military, and I know that things happen. In fact a good family friend did several First Pitches in the Gunks (NY), and Yosemite, he is one of the best Search and Rescue trackers in the Red Dessert of Wyoming, and a trained Oil and Gas industry first responder and fire fighter. When I was young he almost called for help when he got hit in a horrid blizzard. Him and my father trained me. I had to call for help once. Easter weekend, got hit in a freak snow storm that came out of no-where. Conditions were so bad EVERY rescue vehicle (6 in total) except one got stuck coming up the mountain. Sh@t happens man, you can't charge everyone for it. Sometimes nature defeats the most trained people in the world.
That's why I pay taxes by the way. To have an infrastructure there to help me and support me when I need it! By your definition a police force is Socialism.
I do feel though that people that use these panic buttons in a none life threatening situation should be charged, or at least know that there is a possibility they will be charged if the use is deemed negligent. But charges should only be applied if people are as stupid as these four.
p.s. I'm gonna go call my friend and tell him he should stop working for Search and Rescue till the victims start paying up...;) Can't wait to hear what his traditional conservative response will be.
Ok, your police department responds three times in one night for a burglary alarm (movement sensor) at a re-sale clothing store. Management can not be contacted. Each time officers arrive and find the building secure but note a cat walking around inside.
You decide: Do you continue to send officers to each of the subsequent twenty alarm calls that are reported that night at the used clothing store?
At my agency you keep going and send a bill for each false alarm. In my city, you get one false alarm freebie, after that if we respond to a false alarm at your address, its $50 each time.
This solved ALOT of problems we had with repeat alarm offenders.
Belmont31R
10-26-09, 00:55
NO. Not from socialist europe, that could never happen. Those commies are insane over there! ;) (don't take offense I just have to comment every time someone uses the term socialism when it isn't necessary to the argument or discussion on hand).
Yes I agree with you, the best way to deal with this in the United States would be to make the party pay for the costs of the rescue (if that rescue is un-necessary). But I really have to tell you that I take a lot of solace in knowing that Search and Rescue is there and does what it does. I am an experienced outdoors person, probably more then most people on this site that aren't military, and I know that things happen. In fact a good family friend did several First Pitches in the Gunks (NY), and Yosemite, he is one of the best Search and Rescue trackers in the Red Dessert of Wyoming, and a trained Oil and Gas industry first responder and fire fighter. When I was young he almost called for help when he got hit in a horrid blizzard. Him and my father trained me. I had to call for help once. Easter weekend, got hit in a freak snow storm that came out of no-where. Conditions were so bad EVERY rescue vehicle (6 in total) except one got stuck coming up the mountain. Sh@t happens man, you can't charge everyone for it. Sometimes nature defeats the most trained people in the world.
That's why I pay taxes by the way. To have an infrastructure there to help me and support me when I need it! By your definition a police force is Socialism.
I do feel though that people that use these panic buttons in a none life threatening situation should be charged, or at least know that there is a possibility they will be charged if the use is deemed negligent. But charges should only be applied if people are as stupid as these four.
p.s. I'm gonna go call my friend and tell him he should stop working for Search and Rescue till the victims start paying up...;) Can't wait to hear what his traditional conservative response will be.
I agree too. Shit happens and you can't charge everyone for everything when we already pay taxes for these services. Just like the 911 tax on my phone bill.
Already how many people would be able to pay for helo and ground services? That is not cheap, and you'd financially ruin people + disuade people from going outdoors in the 1st place if they face 10k + in bills if shit goes wrong. I know I couldn't afford it. Americans are already too fat and stay indoors too much. Last thing we need to do is keep away the people who do make it off their couch even if they are idiots.
And in Europe you have to pay to use public restrooms. I also don't want to pay to take a piss when it was my tax dollars that built the damn thing in the 1st place. :cool:
Americans are already too fat and stay indoors too much. Last thing we need to do is keep away the people who do make it off their couch even if they are idiots.
Agreed 100% We need to get people outdoors and educated about things like hiking, farming, hunting, fishing, ext. This is something I am passionate about. In fact in my opinion it would do more to prevent gun control then bitching about Obama and liberals, and putting an NRA sticker on your van... ;)
And in Europe you have to pay to use public restrooms. I also don't want to pay to take a piss when it was my tax dollars that built the damn thing in the 1st place. :cool:
Sorry dude, but your a socialist. Pissing in a public bathroom should cost you, this isn't Russia.
I need to get one of those so when I visit Somalia for the African Understanding Conference during cultural diversity week I can call for help if something goes wrong.
They will send somebody right?
:D
At my agency you keep going and send a bill for each false alarm. In my city, you get one false alarm freebie, after that if we respond to a false alarm at your address, its $50 each time.
This solved ALOT of problems we had with repeat alarm offenders.
And for every problem, there is a solution.
Just posting to agree.
My ex is an EMT for a large ambulance company. You would not BELIEVE how many people call for papercuts, stomach aches, or Timmy burned his finger on a hot plate. It's insanity. And that's just a routine EMT/Medic call. These guys and gals that literally risk there lives for these idiot ass-clowns sometimes do it for FREE as a volunteer.
The department should write up how much it costs to put that bird in the air, and should have invoices on hand, as well as citations. If the call is bullshit, charge their asses. If it's legit, another job well done, the hospital bills will probably be sufficient to give them the ol' smack on the head they need for being unprepared/untrained/unqualified.
As a matter of fact, I may send this off to the NPS for refference of a solution.
Ok, your police department responds three times in one night for a burglary alarm (movement sensor) at a re-sale clothing store. Management can not be contacted. Each time officers arrive and find the building secure but note a cat walking around inside.
You decide: Do you continue to send officers to each of the subsequent twenty alarm calls that are reported that night at the used clothing store?
It is obvious you are not in public safety. Yes, someone gets sent on every alarm, usually non-emergency after the first few. A cat? Motion alarms dont go off for small things or alarms would be going off everywhere if something moved in a house or business. As was already posted, charging the alarm company or owner is normal and does cut down on false alarms.
a friend of mine, who was one of the top amature adventure racers in the country, his body was recovered thanks to one of these devices automaticly deploying after a fall off a mountain.
they do have their place, but being overused isnt one of them.
They do have their place, which is in the wilderness. The first problem I have is them going off unintentionally, poorly designing something which causes a false rescue call is grounds of a class action law suit by every agency that has ever gotten one.
Second, I agree with everyone that says using it in a non-emergency should be sent a bill. Everyone of those things sold should have a document that you have to get notarized and sent to the company before it is activated stating that they will have to pay for non-emergency rescues. If there is a question after if it was an emergency can be dealt will afterwards in courts.
I would not want to discourage them because they are a valuable lifesaving tool, but unless they add a phone function to it like Onstar it is just a worldwide panic button.
They should have been left out there to starve.
At my agency you keep going and send a bill for each false alarm. In my city, you get one false alarm freebie, after that if we respond to a false alarm at your address, its $50 each time.
This solved ALOT of problems we had with repeat alarm offenders.
We got a bill like this for a visit. Power went out, alarm sent signal, no power=no cordless phones working for alarm company to call = popo on scene. Not the sheriff's fault, and I was glad to pay it. Not my house, so I didn't know the drill with the alarms. Need to have a hardwired phone to receive that call and tell them to stand down.
a friend of mine, who was one of the top amature adventure racers in the country, his body was recovered thanks to one of these devices automaticly deploying after a fall off a mountain.
they do have their place, but being overused isnt one of them.
Sorry to hear about your friend.
I agree they have their place.
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.
Folks performing certain types of activities in certain places should be required to demonstrate either some level of experience/proficiency/credential, or possess insurance of some sort to against losses. Of course, this creates a bit of bureaucracy that costs money, too.
In other places/circumstances, investigations should be conducted to determined if the rescued assumed a level of risk (TBD) or engaged in some act or ommission that necessitated the rescue. If they did, they should be billed accordingly.
I am increasingly of the opinion that drivers that cause MVCs should be billed for all costs related to the crash, too.
I also like billing for false alarms, provided the business gets a certain amount of freebies. Whether that's 1-3 a year, I don't know. Some alarms are obviously employee issues, some less so.
Same applies for 911-hangups.
While we're at it, I also like the idea of requiring pro-active measures to curb gas drive-offs and bad checks, or billing for services rendered in the event of same.
Stupid, or careless, should cost.
UrbanRunner
10-26-09, 12:59
It is obvious you are not in public safety.
Really?
Yes, someone gets sent on every alarm, usually non-emergency after the first few.
Depends on the agency
A cat? Motion alarms dont go off for small things or alarms would be going off everywhere if something moved in a house or business.
Wrong again, and yes they do go off everywhere and that is precisely the problem.
As was already posted, charging the alarm company or owner is normal and does cut down on false alarms.
Possibly to some degree, depending on how ordinance is written and how it is enforced.
Wrong again, and yes they do go off everywhere and that is precisely the problem.
Funny how millions of people set their alarms everyday and leave their cats and dogs in their homes everyday with out the alarms going off.
Funny how millions of people set their alarms everyday and leave their cats and dogs in their homes everyday with out the alarms going off.
Do you work in the industry and/or have the numbers on this? This seems like more of you just being contrary for the sake of doing so.
From what I've seen if you have a pet at the time of install they will set the sensors so that they don't reach all the way to the floor, so the cat or dog goes undetected. But if you leave the turkey leftovers out and the cat jumps up, they pop up on the motion sensor and set off the alarm. Or if you move into a house that was previously set up "no pets" then you need to have the sensors tweaked.
I don't do this shit for a living though. Our dog stays boxed during the day and doesn't set off the alarm from there.
John_Wayne777
10-28-09, 09:56
Funny how millions of people set their alarms everyday and leave their cats and dogs in their homes everyday with out the alarms going off.
What sets off a motion sensor VARIES from make to make, model to model, and specimen to specimen. Some are so sensitive that mice will set them off. Others are so insensitive that I have to do jumping jacks before they will notice movement.
Send 'em the bill...
Full operating costs of the chopper, depreciation, salaries of the flight crew...
JW
I kind of like the European way. From what the poster said, people can buy rescue insurance. If people want to go into the wilderness (prepared or not), they can choose to pay for rescue insurance beforehand or take the risk of needing to pay for a rescue.
geminidglocker
10-28-09, 16:07
I agree with making them pay. Or atleast kick there ass to show them what survival is really about. City folk just creep the F&*k out of me, with there gentility, and lack of intestinal fortitude. The nerve of some folks! "Waaaa..Daddy, my water tastes salty.", I'de have pissed in there canteens and left them to rot.;)
LockenLoad
10-28-09, 16:27
Than I guess the Coast Guard should start charging too? I bet there is some big expenses saving those crab fisherman, our around the world 16 year old sailors. We sure did not charge all the idiots who had 3 to 4 day notice to leave before Katrina that needed rescuing. Charging is just not going to stop ignorant people, signs all over the Grand Canyon about safety but people still fall off, our think it's a day trip to the bottom and back, it can be if your in shape and have a lot of water.
geminidglocker
10-28-09, 18:33
Granted, if it is a legitamate emergency, the person being rescued should not pay. It should be judged on a case by case basis. But, "I'm cold and damp", "I did'nt prep.", etc;, That's just wrong.
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